Poetry and "vice" (suicide drinking etc.)+ emotion etc-.

Kuroyagi said:

Can you, for example, write better poetry when drunk, or when having a hang over (I wrote this aphorism which is actually based on some of my exp.: "Alcohol makes the artist creative especially on the Day After: a terrible hangover will make him feel so miserable that he’ll start to write good poetry.")

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As I am completely unable, despite my best efforts, to get a hangover, now I understand why none of my poems will ever be considered good.

... alcohol causes the brain to deteriorate. Speak to anyone who drinks regularly and you'll mark their inability to remain focused or to think things through, almost as if a fog stood between them and the world. I couldn't possibly see why any writer/poet would want to handicap themselves in this way. Writing is difficult enough without putting additional obstacles in ones path. And for those who think they drink to increase their creativity I'd advise them to seek counseling of some sort as a sure indicator of addiction is making excuses and coming up with rationalizations for continuing to indulge in the addiction.

What Ken said, more or less. Without the counselling bit.

I wanted to ask about the relationship of so called vices or weaknesses to poetry or the poet. What are everyone's experiences with this?

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I have no experience with such. Poetry is hard enough to write having full control over my own faculties. To see what substance addiction can do to a poet, look at Coleridge. As Carlyle said about him, "Coleridge, as you doubtless hear, is gone. How great a Possibility, how small a realized Result!"

But to each hizzone. If you want to write your poems in a state of inebriation or other state of reduced mental capacity, have at it. Just don't drive the completed work down to the post office, please.

Kuroyagi said:

I wanted to ask about the relationship of so called vices or weaknesses to poetry or the poet. What are everyone's experiences with this? Can you, for example, write better poetry when drunk, or when having a hang over (I wrote this aphorism which is actually based on some of my exp.: "Alcohol makes the artist creative especially on the Day After: a terrible hangover will make him feel so miserable that he’ll start to write good poetry.")

Or, on another level, how about very strong emotions and poetry, how do they correlate to one another in you opinion? Would be glad to reading everyones ramblings and thoughts on this subject! Best wishes, K. (Will probably contribute more later, myself!)

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I personally don't think being drunk and writing or having a hangover and writing would produce the best results. Diminished capacity and all that. I do know someone who gets a mild buzz and then writes. It helps him reach "the zone" as he calls it. I can understand how that would work for him because consuming some alcohol lowers a person's inhibitions, allowing them to more freely express what is on their mind. I prefer meditation. Easier on the liver.

I am troubled by your inference that being suicidal is a vice. A person becomes suicidal from being in a deep depression that they can not climb out of. Depression is an illness, not a vice. I do believe some excellent artistic expression can come out of a person who is depressed, regardless their venue. Depression results in a complete and total inner focus. It is in its own way a meditative state. Just one filled with dark and troubling thoughts. Many years ago I had a friend who wrote who refused to take antidepressants because the meds deadened his creativity. It was his decision. One I understood.

Kuroyagi said:

Cool, I think that very extreme puritanism is also some kind of addiction and could produce very fine verses indeed; or fasting, or any other eccentricities at that. I myself do believe that poetry itself is highly dangerous, even very much life-threatening; if one practices it (that of course pre-supposes that one even can practice it), then I think that there is some inevitable pull towards the unknown, the undiscovered regions of the mind*; in some people I believe this craving for the unknown or the discontent with the world, is the reason for deviations like taking drugs or stuying philosophy or meditating upon our raison d'etre or seeking some extreme adventures in life. All in all they are not taking the world as it is for granted that's why they are fuckin artists and poets!

Everyone who writes (poetry or literature) is somehow adverse to the world itself, is at least my opinion. I myself am already old enough not to be the moral judge of others...

edit: *btw, I have found certain exercises that counter-balance the negative effect of poetry, e.g. Taoist immortality practises etc...

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I am confused by your thought that there is a negative effect of poetry. Poetry for me is a catharsis and beneficial. Not negative in the least. Creating anything is a blessing and beautiful, even when the thoughts and emotions behind the creation are pain-laden.

... ps Just to to add something positive to my post, above, I like your spirit of solidarity, Kuroyagi. Solidarity among poets and writers is a definite plus.

... would be interested in reading some of your stuff. Send me a rep when/if you post a poem. And please be sure to delete the hicups from the stanzas before posting.

Kidding ;-)

Kuroyagi said:

For me it can have many effects, and the one you describe is also true and valid. This even pertains to physical illnesses (e.g. when I had some asthma I once wrote an invocation/poem to Zephyros and it helped), but also to times when I'm feeling down. Yet this is the connection-point to what I'm getting at: I also happen to feel down when having a hang over, and that also was a state when I could write some interesting poetry...maybe even some of my best. The will to compensate for a state of illness or disquietude even is a good reason for that poetry, as you suggest, is also some kind of cure. YET, for some life itself is some form of "illness" or the world itself (as with the Gnostics and other religions) is something that is to be "avoided"; yert living within it we write poetry so to create for ourselves an avenue out of the injust chaos that life can sometimes be...

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The world that is to be avoided in religion, to my understanding, is the trappings of the world that lead to sin and lead away from God. Some do this by removing themselves and their community from dealings with others to avoid being tainted by sin. It is not the physical world, that is Earth, itself that is to be avoided. Life is God given within all religions that I am familiar with and as such is cherished. To end life is often considered a sin as it goes against the gift God has given mankind.

Occasionally, I will put myself into a state of almost-depression so I can pull poems out of the darkness of my past. Some of my best come from the dark because I can more fully tap into the emotions and the thoughts behind the emotions from that place. Alcohol is also a depressant. So it makes sense someone could use it to reach that deeper level to pull out creative pieces. It is a dangerous path, however. Not one I would recommend. And one, if taken, to be respected and handled with care.

Wasn't it Dylan Thomas who said:

'Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder'

No?

Must have been me then...

Seriously, Mr Thomas was a heavy drinker, smoker and poet. The question is; did these vices help improve his work? They certainly gave him extra experiences to write about.
Which raises another question; did he actually write about smoking and drinking?

I couldn't answer that.

I don't like his poetry and hardly ever read it.

Basically, i think you have to specify how much drinking or drugs one is doing, before trying to make any kind of correlation between that activity and any form or creative expression, no matter what it might be.

What amazes me is world class musicians who can play. (and apparently play well) when drunk or stoned, or pool players, (or any athletes who seem to get better with the more they drink), because I know personally that my reflexes go to blazes after 4 - 5 drinks.
As far as writing goes however, I've been drinking 3 Beers a night for the last 30 years and haven't noticed any increase or decrease in the frequency or quality of my writing.

As a matter of fact, I find that much of my best writing comes in the middle of the night, (after I've been drinking) when I can't sleep because my mind won't shut down. I used to try and fight it and hope whatever inspiration I was having would still be there in the morning, but, in recent years, I've found myself getting up, going to my computer and writing down what's going through my head, and the result has been a flood of quality Limericks and Haiku that were well worth the loss of sleep.

I can't say any of my major poems have been written that way, (although I have occasionally gotten fragments, and more than a few complete Song Lyrics as a result.).

I have written a couple of drinking songs and poems, but as I remember (for it was many years ago), I was neither drunk nor hungover when I wrote them, but I don't pretend that I'm typical of everybody. The only thing I will say is that it never pays to generalize too much about subjects like this, (anymore than one can generalize about suicidal tendencies and emotional unbalance among poets like Plath and that ilk)

Inspiration comes whenever and wherever and we, who write, can only be glad that it does.

James R. Hoye, (JRH)

Billytwice said:

The question is; did these vices help improve his work? They certainly gave him extra experiences to write about.

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They certainly didn't help him in the thirty-odd years he could have expected to live if he hadn't drunk himself to death at thirty-nine.

A poem where an alcoholic debates his addiction (the black man of the title, which doesn't have the racial connotation in English) is Sergey Esenin's The Black Man. Esenin died at thirty with a body knackered by over-indulgence, but his best work to me is about the changing nature of the Russian countryside.

Maybe William Burroughs' The Naked Lunch wouldn't have been what it was without his drug taking, and Coleridge's Kubla Khan was supposed to have been inspired by an opium dream, but these are outliers. Most alcoholics and druggies damage their ability to produce decent work, and make appalling role models. On balance, you're better off going easy on your body.

write while stoned.

Hello everybody, what a n interesting thread, Ambrosia was correct in saying alcohol lowers inhibitions.
Alcohol provides loose lips unlike meditation where one would be more considerate of one's words. however there are consequences at certain stages of development which are usually detrimental if abused.
I know depression can make you feel like life has no value, alcohol could enhance that. It depends on the vice and the tolerance levels, learning through experience is often more authentic than by the book. ;-D


for me everyone who even tries to write poetry is somehow special, already (esp. in this decadent age)

Kuroyagi, this is really sweet ;-D

For me, I could not even think to write while drunk or hungover---or in any kind of altered state, including one of pain. My thoughts are unfocused and therefore useless. Sure, reflecting on these instances are great fodder for all sorts of writing. But in the moment my mind is wayward and my creativity close to naught.

Interesting thread. I don't know the answer myself. I write with a sober mind. I can't say I've ever written anything while drunk or high... don't drink or smoke nor do drugs. There were plenty of jazz musicians who believed drugs improved their music in the end lots of them and their ability to make or compose music were destroyed by drugs. Ironically the most experimental and out there jazz music I've ever listened to were done by someone who didn't do drugs.

Since I don't drink often, alcohol makes me either sleepy or nauseous, neither of which states are good for writing.

A wise man (and a poet) once said: 'why do I drink? So I can deal with a**holes and this includes myself'...

But, from the perspective of a drinker, and a writer (who is interested in psychology, philosphy, and the occult: I believe that when used properly, intoxication can help contact the Universal Mind, or the collective unconscious, and may be of use, particularly for the poet. Why do you think so many of the famous poets were such drunks? (not to mention the mental health issues they dealt with, usually undiagnosed)...

BTW, I do not drink when writing prose, but i only write poetry when drunk.

there's no right answer, as there is no single mental schematic for poets. they are as diverse as the practitioners of any creative endeavor.

certainly, many poets have written, and written well, under the influence of drugs or alcohol (coleridge, poe and keats, for three examples) in addition to hardcore drunks and junkies like bukowski and burroughs.

conversely, a wealth of great works have been written by sober craftsmen, whose intellectual engagement neither required, nor desired, any chemically-induced alteration of consciousness.

that said, i'm a firm believer that some of the best poetry comes from some level of sensual derangement, whether chemically self-induced or a natural by-product of an abnormal mind.

even before thomas began drinking regularly and heavily, there was evidence of naturally occurring dissociation.

as for suicidal impulses or thoughts, i agree with ambrosia that it's not really a vice at all... self-pity might be considered such, and it can certainly lead to fleeting and surface thoughts of suicide as part of the whole drama of the thing...

but i do think that depression, especially when coupled with an awareness of one's capacity to take suicide seriously, can impact one's worldview sufficient to find that bit of separation from reality that can provide a creative spark.

it's a dangerous line to walk, however...

so, yeah, in summation: just as there is no right way to write a poem, there is no right mental state in which to write one.

whatever works for you....