Flashbacks.

Hum. Personal opinion only.

Does it really push the story forward? That sounds like a lot of words as a 'flashback'. If you really mean 'back story', that might take on a bit of a different model.

When you do the middle of your book with a 'back story', where does the last part pick up from, story wise? I still think that is a lot of words. I guess there's no way to sprinkle it in through the whole book? A confession to a Priest?

When one of the God Father movies does that back flash/story stuff it kind of draws the viewer out of the story. At least it did for me. It would have made more sense to have it at the start of movie #1. IMHO

It will be interesting to see what others say.

Four or five chapters of straight flashback strikes me, without knowing a whole lot about your story, as too much. If I'm involved in what's going on right now (and hopefully I would be), a five-chapter "derailment" would probably try my patience.

Plus, if I'm into the middle of the story, do I really need five chapters of what could essentially be seen as character development? Gut reaction, I'm not sure you're separating what you want the reader to know from what they need to know.

You already know the arguments, but I'll say them anyway.

If you pull it off, awesome. If not, it'll just be an infodump. So make sure you pull it off right. And as for how you get it right, it's like porn: you know it when you see it.

Good luck

I have four chapters of "flashback" in my book, and essentially the way I worked it was to use the present story to spark the memory and then use the memory to affect the way the MC behaves in future chapters.

Rough set-up: my MC is on death row. Yes, he's guilty. Through a fantastical scenario--the book is urban fantasy--he gets a shot at revenge against former friends who testified against him. So as he's going along, he's thinking about the different guys he's going to kill and this makes him remember a specific incident from his past with that friend. When I get to the end of the flashback, I use his memory of that incident to propel him into the next stage of the story.

I hope that makes sense. Also, I hope the editors reading the book feel it works as well as my agent thought it did.

I have four chapters of "flashback" in my book, and essentially the way I worked it was to use the present story to spark the memory and then use the memory to affect the way the MC behaves in future chapters.

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This is what I was going to suggest. The info in the flashback needs to be relevant right now when you introduce it, not just relevant "overall."

Wow.

IMHO, flashbacks should be done to move the main story forward, not stop it. Whatever you do, whether it's one big chunk or sprinkled all over, should be relevant and move the plot along.

In TPB, the first 7 chapters alternate between current time and flashback. But each flashback chapter introduces something (plot-wise) and characters that show up in the present time line, or is relevant to the present-day story. It works out really well, giving the readers background info while moving the plot forward. Then eventually, present and past converge.

maestrowork said:

IMHO, flashbacks should be done to move the main story forward, not stop it. Whatever you do, whether it's one big chunk or sprinkled all over, should be relevant and move the plot along.

In TPB, the first 7 chapters alternate between current time and flashback. But each flashback chapter introduces something (plot-wise) and characters that show up in the present time line, or is relevant to the present-day story. It works out really way, giving the readers background info while moving the plot forward. Then eventually, present and past converge.

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Think this is pretty much dead on.

IMHO, the only thing that matters is the story you are telling 'right now'. Everything needs to support it, and if it doesn't no matter how cool it is, it needs to be cut.

So if your flashbacks advance the main story, then they are probably good.

If your flashbacks do not advance the story, then they are probably bad.

Also, be careful in trying to color in all the whys and backstories becuase you can literally do this forever.

Take the movie the Matrix. What is the backstory for Trinity? For Morpheous? For Tank? For Dozer? What about the ship? What is it's back story?

THere comes a point where you draw the line, 'infer' a backstory, just enough to give your character an essence, depth, and make them real, and then just move forward with the story.

I'm a big fan of infering things. IMHO, 9 times out of 10, the reader doesn't need the backstory. Just the 'essense' of a backsroty if that makes any sense.

Mel...

Or the flashbacks/flashfowards in LOST -- they add layers to the characters, but they definitely support the current story and are relevant to the "now" plot in progress. They don't just do random flashbacks.

Is it possible you don't need any backstory for this character to be sympathetic? That perhaps you're not trusting the reader to to infer enough from little moments built into the story itself? Or that, if those moments aren't there, you can't build them into the fabric of the story?

I'm not saying this is the case. I don't know much about the story, or how you've built it, and wouldn't presume to give "do this" advice. Just thinking aloud.

But Jim Thompson's Pop. 1280, for instance, is about a psychotic sheriff who kills with impunity, and yet you kind of like him, not because of his backstory (which you never know), but because he's a charming, funny guy when he's not murdering people. And that juxtaposition also makes the character fascinating.

I dunno. As I said, just thinking aloud.

Yeah, some characters are even better without backstory, like The Joker. Have you ever read/watched something where they reveal backstory and you just say, "That's it?"

I have no problem with this sort of structure, a lot of my favourite books/writers use huge amounts of backstory, usually going from childhood back to the present-day events sparked at the beginning. I would say, however, that it tends to work best if it comes in fairly early.

But why can't you start the book with it? Look at Goodfellas, that starts off with Ray Liotta as a young lad running errands for the Mafia guys, and that's a great story/screenplay/film etc.

Wayne K said:

3 for 3. I feel the same way, it's why I asked the question. I guess I need to figure out how to segue past some of it. I can't sprinkle it, and I can't start the book with it. Somehow I need to shorten the hell out of it.
Thank you all for responding.

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Samantha's_Song said:

But why can't you start the book with it? Look at Goodfellas, that starts off with Ray Liotta as a young lad running errands for the Mafia guys, and that's a great story/screenplay/film etc.

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I have to admit, most of the times when people go into these elaborate and long flashbacks, I often wonder why they don't just start the story with the flashback.

If there are to be flashbacks, my favorite flashbacks are the 'layering' flashbacks that reinforce the 'nowness' of a scene.

IMHO, Joss Whedon was KING of this during Firefly. In Firefly, every so often, you got a little flashback of the good ol days of the BrownCoats or how he and Zoey came to be.

DAMN YOU FOX!!! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!

*clears throat*

anyways, back to flashbacks.

yeah, long flashbacks, I almost always just think why didn't they just start with it.

Mel...

Samantha's_Song said:

But why can't you start the book with it? Look at Goodfellas, that starts off with Ray Liotta as a young lad running errands for the Mafia guys, and that's a great story/screenplay/film etc.

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I just had another thought concerning this.

Sometimes, I notice that we want to skip ahead and open with the really cool stuff first to serve as a hook.

But I think we need to trust our abilities as storytellers to start the story where the story begins and write that opening in such a way that it is a 'hook'.

Not all hooks need to be ninjas fighting zombies. A hook is 'anything' that piques our interest and keeps the reader reading.

And if you are really worried about the opening being too slow, then perhaps a spicy prologue can help. But in this case, the prologue would be more of a teaser/excerpt. I've seen this technique employed in a lot of books; a kick-ass 2 page prologue that is pure action ending on a cliff hanger.

anyways, just some more random musings on the subject

Mel...

Wayne K said:

How long can a prologue be?

If I can get away with 3,600 words, I can sprinkle the rest very well. If not, it can be chapter one.

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To prologue or not to prologue is a topic of debate on here. But first it depends on your definition and purpose of a prologue.

IMHO, the prologue is used to hook the reader. It must establish the tone, the world building, and the 'flavor' of the story. To me, a prologue is a promise of things to come. A quick glimpse of the story that wets the reader's appetite and makes them tear into chapter 1.

As such, for me, prologues don't necessarily have to have the MC in them. In fact, they don't even have to take place during the actual story. They can be a 100 yrs 'prior' to the real story. Or, the prologue can be an abbreviated scene that is in the first 1/3 of the book.

Or the prologue can be the 'only' glimpse into the antagonist's POV.

Now here is the kicker. If the reader 'skips' the prologue, they should still be able to enjoy the story, that is, the prologue isn't necessary.

Whatever the case, the end result is the same. The prologue is a powerful hook that gives a glimpse of things to come and leaves the flavor of the story lingering in the mouth of the reader such that they HAVE TO bite into chapter 1.

Conversely, based on my definition, a prologue IS NOT a chapter 1. Though there are writers that do in fact use a prologue as a chapter 1. Similarly, some writers use prologues as the dumping grounds for all the information that they want to impart on the reader before the real story begins.

I cannot say this is wrong for the simple fact that there are books out there that do this. All I can say, is that it is wrong for me.

but i've yet to publish a book, so take my opinions for what they are worth.

Hopefully, more seasoned veterans can weigh in.

also, i'm sure we have a Prologue Pros / Cons thread around here somewhere.

Mel...

p.s. To answer your question about length. Grab several of your favorite books with prologues, and see how long the prologues are. Looking at some of my books, the range seems to be between 600 words - 2400 words