How much coincidence is too much, in a set up?

Rufus Coppertop · Sep 24, 2009

The two main bad guys in my steampunk novel, are an uncle who's a sorceror and his 15 year old nephew who is an apprentice electrician.

The MC's are a pair of 12 year olds currently at a boarding school outside Rome. They are talented magicians convicted of occult delinquency and were given a choice - ultra posh, brat-taming boarding school, or juvenile prison.

First coincidence - the sorceror has a house in Rome, does some work for the underworld but mainly lives in the same town as the two boys. He will actually bump into them in Rome, in the middle of a situation indirectly created by them but not realize that they're the ones who indirectly created it, nor, at first, that they're the ones who know something he badly wants to know.

This is fine so far, I think. Coincidences do happen. People do bump into someone they sort of know. But -

Second coincidence - the nephew who is about to move up to the same town to continue his apprenticeship there - and stay with his uncle and learn a bit of sorcery on the side - actually meets the boys when his boss, takes him along to do a wiring job at the school, just before the end of term.

The shit hits the fan when they all hit this provincial town that the boys and the sorceror live in.

Is this too much coincidence?

For me, it seems to shorten the set up and a bit of a tangled web of relationships in the beginning can be extremely rich fertilizer for the plot development.

Personally, I'm happy to use coincidence (even as unlikely as this) to get MC's into trouble - but once they're in trouble they bloody well have to get out of it themselves.

I'm looking forward to some feedback on this.

cinders23 · Sep 24, 2009

The second coincidence doesn't seem that much different than the first coincidence. If the uncle goes somewhere then it's logical that the nephew would be with him if he wants to learn some sorcery.

scarletpeaches · Sep 24, 2009

So...they all live in a small town, all move to Rome and 'just happen' to run into each other there?

Rufus Coppertop · Sep 24, 2009

cinders23 said:
The second coincidence doesn't seem that much different than the first coincidence. If the uncle goes somewhere then it's logical that the nephew would be with him if he wants to learn some sorcery.

No, the uncle is not an electrician. He's a bookshop owner in the provincial town who runs a coven and when he's in Rome, he's a hitman.

That the nephew meets them in the course of his work is separate.

Damn! I think it really is too much of a coincidence.

:rant:

Rufus Coppertop · Sep 24, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
So...they all live in a small town, all move to Rome and 'just happen' to run into each other there?

Well ..... yes. A bit.

BTW - can you tell me what STET means?

Mumut · Sep 24, 2009

It sounds a bit contrived when you tell it in a few sentences. But when it is part of the story with surrounding facts and reasons, I don't think it would be noticed.

Sarpedon · Sep 24, 2009

I will repeat what I said elsewhere:

Coincidences that complicate the plot are GOOD.

Coincidences that resolve plot issues are BAD.

in a fantasy, you are already asking people to believe in magic and stuff. Surely they can believe in people randomly meeting, especially if its well established that they live in the area, and especially if the sorcerer has some kind of subconcious precognition or something.

The only problem would be if the sorcerer always appears at the right moment to magically get the characters out of a scrape. That would be annoying. If he randomly shows up to make their lives more difficult, that is amusing. For some reason Diabolo ex Machina is more acceptable in a story than Deus ex Machina.

Dicentra P · Sep 24, 2009

If Rome is not too far to be the major city or one of a couple of cities near both the small town and where the boys live before the incident I don't think that it is too much of a stretch that they all went into the city at the same time. Throw in a festival or holiday that draws more than the usual amount of people to the city and it becomes even less of an issue.

dgiharris · Sep 24, 2009

IMHO,

the reader expects characters to eventually meet. In fact, in many cases, they can see the eventual meeting coming like a train. And that is completely okay because the reader can't wait to see how the author is going to mix all the story elements and how they are going to impact one another.

I recently read a series by Peter F. Hamilton called The Reality Dsyfunction.

Now, this is a space opera detailing worlds spread across the galaxy. And it jumps from different POVs. So, what are odds that in a Galaxy full of hundreds of Billions of people that several characters spread across a 100 light years are going to 'bump' into each other at key points of the story?

As the reader, I sorta don't care. In fact, I can't wait for it to happen. The interactions add another layer, another complication to the plot. Similarly, the interactions always resulted in unanticipated consequences. In some cases, you thought the plot would be resolved only to discover that the stakes grew higher, new problems emerged, etc. etc.

anyways, my two cents. Overall, I believe that to the reader, the coincidence of characters meeting is more or less invisible. What the reader really cares about are the results of that meeting, and the results better be interesting and increase the complexity and dynamics of the story.

Basically, my long winded way of saying what Sarpedon said

Mel...

Smiling Ted · Sep 24, 2009

You could bury the coincidence in the story, but it *is* a little much. However, it will only matter if you can't get everything else right.

But you could remove the coincidence by making the uncle a little smarter, having him realize that there's something unusual about the MCs, and detailing his nephew to investigate further. Just a suggestion.

And btw-

Rufus Coppertop said:
BTW - can you tell me what STET means?

As a former copy editor, I can tell you that "Stet" is Latin for "look it up for yourself in Wikipedia."

thewakingself · Sep 24, 2009

Coincidences that complicate the plot are GOOD.

Coincidences that resolve plot issues are BAD.

ITA. Like others said, if you handle it correctly, coincidence can be done and made to sound plausible. Your coincidences don't sound like too far of a stretch to me, but that's just MHO... and experience. Crazy weird stuff happens all the time IRL. [Frex: While traveling abroad, I unexpectedly ran into my h.s. senior year prom date in a teensy remote mountain town's only hostel. Very, very surreal.]

Ruv Draba · Sep 24, 2009

Coincidences that kick off plot are tolerable. After that, I think they're only good for comedy or pathos.

My suggetion: let all your effects have causes -- they may not be intentional causes, but let the causes be seen.

For instance, when I travel overseas I often trip over someone I know or someone who knows someone I know. In a world of six billion people and only 20 million Australians you'd wonder how that could be, but the truth is that when Australians go overseas, most of them tend to do the same things the same way in the same places -- and Australians travel fairly often. The only way I can actually hide from fellow Australians overseas is to act like I'm not a traveller from Australia and do things completely differently.

If people from the one small town or the same family are known for certain values and behaviours -- e.g. they love a particular wine, or they're good at a particular craft -- then it's very easy to explain how they can keep tripping over each other in a large, distant city. Indeed, you could make it a feature of the story.

dclary · Sep 24, 2009

"One thing about living in Santa Clara I never could stomach. All the damn vampires." -- Grandpa, after "coincidentally" driving into the evil head vampire at end of "The Lost Boys."

Rufus Coppertop · Sep 24, 2009

Smiling Ted said:
But you could remove the coincidence by making the uncle a little smarter, having him realize that there's something unusual about the MCs, and detailing his nephew to investigate further. Just a suggestion.

Funny you should say that! The Uncle details the nephew and his thuggish mates to "escort" the boys to him.

Smiling Ted said:
As a former copy editor, I can tell you that "Stet" is Latin for "look it up for yourself in Wikipedia."

I'm kicking myself for not recognizing it as a present subjunctive of "stat" which means "he, she or it stands/is standing".

Rufus Coppertop · Sep 24, 2009

Thanks to everyone!

:hooray:

I'm putting it in, but with a slight modification. The bad boy's uncle actually has a plausible reason to take him, instead of his boss.

How much coincidence is too much, in a set up?

Rufus Coppertop

cinders23

scarletpeaches

Rufus Coppertop

Rufus Coppertop

Mumut

Well begun is half done...

Sarpedon

Dicentra P

Help!!!!

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

thewakingself

Plays with fire.

Ruv Draba

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

Rufus Coppertop

Rufus Coppertop