1:100

As much stock as I put in the betas or other sources - which is to say, I take all of it with a grain of salt. No one critter or beta or anything else is necessarily going to sway me on something. If I get lots of people saying the same thing, then it's time to consider it, or if the comments are in line with thoughts I was having, then too.

But I would take issue with the idea that a community like this is less useful. (I would also point out we have a number of published authors here, who visit and comment in SYW) I think a lot of times the SYW areas get a bad rap bcs people post and then get harsher comments than they were expecting, and so it turns them off.

And while sometimes I have found some of the critters off-base, whether bcs it was the wrong story for them, the wrong kind of story, or just something they didn't like, in the main that's *not* been the case. They also have the advantage over a beta in that you can post something and get comments back quickly, from a number of people.

Like any other resource, this one is all in how you use it.

I've only recently started coming here, but I do know that I've seen some good suggestions that have helped me with things I wouldn't have thought of before. I wouldn't follow every suggestion I was given, but there are some good ones out there.

I think for me the best help has come in being around people more experienced than me. It's given me insight and taken away the nervousness I had about the whole process. Well...most of the nervousness. I'm not longer afraid of getting rejections, and I have a better idea of what agents are looking for.

And exactly who is your friend published with, might I ask? How many copies has he sold? Sounds to me like someone got a bad crit on one of these sites.

Truth be told, a lot of writing sites are circle-jerks for people who want praise, not criticism. This one? Good god no.

How much stock do I put in SYW? Well to be honest most of my crits and synopses are done privately. I only swap work with people whose honesty I can count on, and whose work is at the same level (or slightly higher than) mine. I just don't accept crits from people who don't know their semi-colons from their hyphens, or who say things like, "Okay, do it this way." Uh, no. It's my book. Not yours. I'm looking for issues of clarity and communication, not where you'd put the ninjas and sparkly vampires.

If you never put your work out there, though, how do you know you're improving? How else can you compare it to the standards of the industry?

Places like this are for open discussion of things like adverbs, flashbacks and show-don't-tell. One might be able to apply all the rules to one's novel but sometimes it takes a fresh pair of eyes - either in SYW or privately - to give it the once over and say "Yes, you've got it," or "Needs work."

I want crits that tell me where I'm going wrong, and where the issues are cloudy, not how the crittier (ha!) would write it.

SYW is casual and it's fairly anonymous. I think it's a good testing ground for your work, and also for learning how to accept and incorporate feedback. I've used it only a couple of times, I think mainly for opening pages and particular scenes that I wasn't sure were working the way they were supposed to.

As others have said, it's all in how you incorporate the advice you get. For me, SYW helped me to grow thick skin. Now that I have that, in-depth crits I get (from betas - found here on AW and IRL) are much more valuable. If I'd not had the blunt and yes, sometimes totally off-the-wall crits I got in SYW, I would still be sitting in a corner crying every time someone suggested my writing wasn't perfect.

Just remember that you're the boss, so you can either take crits or leave them. If you don't let them hurt you, then they can only be helpful - you leave what you don't like and take the valuable stuff. So why stay away?

I've seen snarky crits and crits done with one hand waving in the air with the attitude, "Of well, if you want to do it this stupid way, at least..." blah blah blah. But the majority of crits I've seen are done with the hope of helping people. I think it's obvious when someone is truly fixing a mistake or a fuzzy element. I mean, come on. If you can't tell what helps and what doesn't, then yeah, the crit is crap, and disregard. But so often I have seen a crit'er dust the wheat from the chaff and clear it up.

And what about the benefit you get from doing crits for other people? I thought I would suck horribly at it, but I've enjoyed the few I've done, and learned so much. It's funny how you can other's mistakes, then look at your own work and go... that's what's wrong!

There is also a lot to gain from reading the crits done for others. If I didn't have such dry eyes, I would spend a lot more time in SYW...

I only rarely post anything in SYW. I think I've only posed a couple of things there since I've been here (except for some 100-word horror stories a group of us were doing just for fun).

Generally, I'd much rather work with one or two beta readers than get comments from a group of ten different people. There's a more natural back-and-forth flow that way and we can get to know each other and understand a critical comment without having to go into a lot of detail.

However, last year I posted a children's PB story in SYW because I thought it "kind of sucked" but I wasn't exactly sure why. Two or three people kindly agreed with me . . . that it sucked. They also offered some comments that were helpful and I think helped me to improve the story. Also, posting something in SYW and getting a little feedback can help to get you started on a revision if you've been putting it off.

No matter what critique I receive in SYW, good or bad, I always send the person who has taken the time to read my stuff and comment a rep thanking them. As far as I know I have never failed to do this; if I have, it was a mere oversight.

I have an idea for a discussion regarding caves. But I've been off my tits on a) a migraine b) medication for A and c) no non-chemical sleep in two days so best not just yet, I think.

I think a lot would depend too on the person posting in SYW. For some, the feedback would be very helpful; for others it might shake their confidence in their own voice so much that they become indecisive about what to do (especially if they're new writers and think their writing is great, only to hear for the first time that others aren't quite so impressed).

I think it is good for new writers to get some comments from people outside their circle of friends and family, whether in a forum like SYW or with some beta readers.

If nothing else, SYW is a great excercise in thickening the skin.

As I repped Kayleamay. And as I told her, I thought my comment was so goshdarn insightful I should inflict it on you all.

Consider yourself inflicted.

alleycat said:

No matter what critique I receive in SYW, good or bad, I always send the person who has taken the time to read my stuff and comment a rep thanking them.

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My reps:critiques ratio is running at about one in five. Reading some of the aggrived PMs I've received, I sometimes wonder if critiquing is there to thicken the skin of the critiquer.

I've received crits in AW and they've been spot on. I haven't accepted everything but I've learnt a lot. So I'd say, don't necessarily accept generalities. If the majority of crits tell you something, take notice.

1: 100?

No. Really. My writing has improved tremendously since I came here, via SYW and betas ( two of whom are in this thread. Thanks guys!)

BUT

Of course there's a but - look at what the crits say. I've had comments that make no sense at all. I ignore them. I've had comments that, if I followed them, would radically alter my voice to that of the poster. I ignore them. I've had comments that were outright bizzare or patently bad advice. Guess what I do with them? ( note these comments weren't here). And I've had comments that might have worked, or might not, because after all it's subjective.

Sift the comments, see what makes sense, what is working with your style not against it, find comments on basic structure etc. ( maybe filter through the posters and pay more attention to those whose opinion you respect. But it's still not gospel) Keep those. Maybe incorporate them, but at least consider them, and how they fit with how and what you write. Use the ones that make you go 'Of course! How did I not see that!' or 'Actually that would work really well.' Ignore the rest - but thank everyone

If you take everyone's crit - you'll only end up with 'book by committee' and that's not good. You can't please everyone and you shouldn't try.

Tha doesn't mean you can't learn from a crit. Just remember nothing is set in stone, no one person will have the 'golden comment' that will magically make your work shine.

Tell your friend to check out AW before dropping a generalization like that. SYW has improved my writing tremendously. I already have thick skin, prison and the streets did that. What i needed was guidance. I have no idea what other writer sites are like, but this one is great. Most sites charge money for what you get here free.

AW rocks.

... I wouldn't pay much attention to what he has to say if he's refering to your ms as a 'girlie book.' If he is biased in this way he probably is biased in many other ways as well. So even if he is knowlegable, his opinion is not to be trusted. As to SYW, the feedback I got when I posted a story was invaluable. I didn't agree with it all, but then that's not the point of SYW. The purpose of the forum is to get one thinking about what 'might' be done, rather than what 'should' be done. Writers have to ultimately make the choice about what is best for their work, and feedback from others can aid that process.

kayleamay said:

I guess it's just like everything else in life. Look at all the options, then use the ones that work. Right? Right?

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Right.

It's this line that struck me about your original post:

Your writing was better when you stayed in your cave.

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What's that about? Passive-voice-and-adverb aversion? Theory consciousness while writing? Anit-loner prejudice on your friend's side?

When I came to online writing fora in 2003 (not AW), I started on a mission to rescue texts from author-revisions based on template-critiques. I disagreed a lot with critiquers, and defended the text, showing what the edited-out pieces were supposed to accomplish, and how editing out these pieces impoverish the text, etc. I rarely did critiques of my own; mostly I did "rescue missions". I usually only jumped in with my own advice if there were concrete questions: "Something about the way X affects Y doesn't work, but I can't figure out what. Help?" These are easier, and I'm more likely to be helpful.

I was - and am, I suppose - a bit of a git, that way. Always rambling about "no rules" - as if everything was a cause that way. Bah!

The point? Take that line seriously. It's just his opinion, but he has the benefit of a before/after comparison, which we all lack. His personal experience, though, is an experience of being himself, not an experience of being you. Easy to forget that. We all have to make our own mistakes, and then, later in life, we have to fefrain from told-you-sos when others don't take the advice we inevitably dish out (I call it "making social noises"). And that's it, really.

I still think that sounding more and more like a creative writing template is the opposite of improvement, and that texts in danger of that deserve rescuing. Not from me, though. I get too ranty, which is rarely productive, and - worse - too repetitive to be entertaining.

In my opinion, if SYW wasn't any good why are there so many published writers here at AW?

Yes, it is impossible to take every single comment from every single crit and make them all work in one query. But gathering the information and learning from those who have been successful and helped others be successful is invaluable.

There are also differing degrees of success. Some people desire nothing more than a publishing contract. Others are happy with acceptances to small magazines, websites etc. To dismiss it as all or nothing all is silly

Your friend is operating in a vacuum. I used to do that. I have found since joining AW that my creativity has skyrocketed. He is missing out on the wonder of being in a group of creative people.

I am personally glad you are here, Kaylea. I would suggest you invite your friend here. He might change his mind. The benefit of SYW is not the main benefit of AW.

I've had great advice on SYW and advice that I thought was way off. Yet I'd post again because the great advice has helped my writing.

P.S. He called your novel a girlie book? WTF IS THAT about?

kayleamay said:

alone in a room full of cats

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I take issue with that phrase. You're not alone in a room full of cats. You are with lots of cats.