Black moment?

Aggy B. · Sep 14, 2009

So, I have a stupid question. I've seen mention of the "black moment" and I'm pretty sure I understand what that means but just in case...

We are talking about the end of Act 2 turning point where everything goes to hell, right? In romances this is usually the "boy loses girl"/"girl loses boy" point of the story. (A mirror of the Act 1 turning point which is typically "boy gets/meets/gets with girl".) Or is it supposed to be the actual climax of the story?

I tried to search and got back nothing useful. Just trying to make sure I understand the general structure of the form here.

scarletpeaches · Sep 14, 2009

Or as I call it, "When everything goes tits up and it's the worst it could be for all concerned."

sunandshadow · Sep 14, 2009

Black moment is usually 1-2 scenes before the climax. I'm not sure erotica really needs to have a black moment though. The black moment is characteristic of fiction built around a hero (usually drama). Specifically the black moment is when the opposition is at its worst, the hero feels completely hopeless and miserable, and he/she needs to find a new burning resolve or spiritual insight which allows him/her to win against seemingly unbeatable opposition.

In an erotica you're more likely to get a scene where the MC has lost the love interest and needs to gather the resolve to make him/herself vulnerable and risk rejection in the attempt to get the love interest back. Or you might get a scene where a villain has captured the love interest and is taunting the mc with the mc's inability to stage a rescue.

SFLP · Sep 14, 2009

If you want more detail, search with Google using:

"black moment" (WITH the quotes)

or

"black moment" plot (again, with the quotes)

You'll find some good hits.

"black moment" romance

...brings up hits as relevant to romance novels, which ought to work somewhat for erotica.

I think Scarlet and SnS summed it up pretty well, though.

J.

Aggy B. · Sep 15, 2009

Right. Well, as I said. I'm familiar with three act structure. And four act structure. I just wanted to be sure this "black moment" wasn't something peculiar to erotica or vastly different from what I'm familiar with.

I know that every author approaches their material differently. But I feel that any story (even romance) should present the final crisis as life or death on some level (emotional/mental/physical).

Anyway. Thanks for the help. I may do the google search and take a look.

YAwriter72 · Sep 15, 2009

Nope! Erotica needs that black moment to make a great story!

The OMG its never gonna work out, we can never be together moment!

MargueriteMing · Sep 16, 2009

YAwriter72 said:
Nope! Erotica needs that black moment to make a great story!

The OMG its never gonna work out, we can never be together moment!

You're confusing romance with erotica.

Aggy B. · Sep 16, 2009

MargueriteMing said:
You're confusing romance with erotica.

But even in erotica the MC still has a goal of some sort, right? And there should still be a moment where everything hinges on how he/she handles the last/biggest obstacle to that goal, right?

I'm asking about this because I've noticed that some genre/subgenre work has a different kind of pacing as far as what happens when. (For example, longer Act 1, which allows for more setup of world/character/situation. Or longer Act 3, which gives more time for winding down the action. Perhaps the climax is more complicated.) Of course, this will fluctuate from book to book and author to author but I don't want to plot everything out and then discover that my material doesn't match up with the "normal" structure.

Synonym · Sep 16, 2009

It could be that your mind wants to write a story that's more of an erotica/romance blend and that's why this is bugging you. Which is pretty dang fine, as far as I'm concerned. I like a little more story with my sex, thank you very much. That may be the first thing you have to figure out.

Once you puzzle that out, it won't be so difficult to plot. The black moment doesn't necessarily have to be that dark and dismal, it can be a shades of gray moment and still cause tension and provide a peak to your story.

I hope I haven't made this even more confusing for you.

YAwriter72 · Sep 16, 2009

MargueriteMing said:
You're confusing romance with erotica.

No I'm assuming OP is writing an erotic story that has romance. Most of the epubs that I know want a good story, not thinly disguised porn. Most authors I know that write erotica, e-pubbed or print for places like Berkley, Kensington, etc. all include black moments in their erotica. My editor pushes a good story vs sex for the sake of sex. In fact one wanted the first sex scene taken out to build the story more.

Yeah there are places out there you can buy straight erotica, but if OP is looking to sell to the current top e-pub's, story is just as important too.

Aggy B. · Sep 16, 2009

Yes, there is a bit of romance in my story. Also a good bit of adventure/quest/fantasy/something.

I guess I'm curious about the expectation of the reader in regard to black moment/climax/conclusion. Should the climax be basically the end of the story with a little teeny scene following to show the HEA/HFRN ending? Should the black moment come in the middle of the book? (Er, say like in About a Boy where the romantic black moment comes in the damn middle. Perhaps a bad example because it's not entirely a romance.)

For instance, in my novel Gaslyte the climax is then followed by another 5-8k of conclusion. Multiple scenes, multiple locations as the MC ties up the loose ends of the story. But some people would be annoyed by that. Especially if the expectation was that the climax was the bulk of the conclusion of the story.

All right. Now I am getting confused. Better just to write the thing and then figure out what needs adjusting.

Thanks for your help. Appreciate the input.

Synonym · Sep 16, 2009

Good idea. Sometimes if you think too long and hard about it, you'll never start.

SFLP · Sep 16, 2009

I don't know what others think, but I really appreciate it when a writer ties up all of the loose ends. Books that reach the climax and then bam! They just end...it's too abrupt for me. While 8k sounds a wee bit long, it depends on the story.

sommemi · Sep 22, 2009

YAwriter72 said:
No I'm assuming OP is writing an erotic story that has romance. Most of the epubs that I know want a good story, not thinly disguised porn. Most authors I know that write erotica, e-pubbed or print for places like Berkley, Kensington, etc. all include black moments in their erotica. My editor pushes a good story vs sex for the sake of sex. In fact one wanted the first sex scene taken out to build the story more.

Yeah there are places out there you can buy straight erotica, but if OP is looking to sell to the current top e-pub's, story is just as important too.

Not like I'm an expert, but being a huge FAN of erotica AND romance... I'd have to say that a good storyline to erotica is only going to enhance it all. Otherwise yes - it's just glorified porn. The storyline pulls you into the story more and allows you to relate to the situation and the more you relate, the more you get into the story, and the more you get into the story, the better the erotica writing is. KWIM? No matter what, anything that puts a hiccup in the story is going to make the reader stop for a second and interupt the flow of emotion... and that's not good for any kind of writing, erotica or not. um... right? :Shrug:

sunandshadow · Sep 22, 2009

SFLP said:
I don't know what others think, but I really appreciate it when a writer ties up all of the loose ends. Books that reach the climax and then bam! They just end...it's too abrupt for me. While 8k sounds a wee bit long, it depends on the story.

I read one romance novel which had 50 pages after the plot climax, and worked fine that way. (It was a paperback, so at a rough guess that would be 12.5k words.) It worked because the relationship arc's climax was caused due to the fallout of the plot arc's climax, so there was still a good deal of suspense that needed to be resolved.

I think I would personally go for the opposite structure, where the relationship arc climaxes before the plot arc, but even then I don't like books that end too abruptly, almost every book needs at least 3k words after the plot climax to let the reader relax and show the results of the characters' strenuous efforts.

cooeedownunder · Sep 22, 2009

I believe it's near the climax, where the MC gets or looks like they are about to reach their goal, and then it swept away from under their feet and we charge to the climax.

YAwriter72 · Sep 22, 2009

cooeedownunder said:
I believe it's near the climax, where the MC gets or looks like they are about to reach their goal, and then it swept away from under their feet and we have a chance to climax.

I totally read it that way!! :roll:

No more skimming posts!!!

Satori1977 · Sep 28, 2009

I agree, even erotica should have a good story. I have read some awful erotica that made no sense, random people just showing up to have sex, and the most ridiculous typos everywhere. Total turnoff. No matter what genre I am reading, it has to be well-written and have a good underlying story.

Black moment?

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

scarletpeaches

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

YAwriter72

someone let me off this crazy ride

MargueriteMing

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

Synonym

YAwriter72

someone let me off this crazy ride

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

Synonym

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

sommemi

Uses loquacious in sentences

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

cooeedownunder

Grateful for the day

YAwriter72

someone let me off this crazy ride

Satori1977

Listening to the Voices In My Head

Black moment?

Not as sweet as you think

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Just tell me to shut up.

Not as sweet as you think

someone let me off this crazy ride

Not as sweet as you think

someone let me off this crazy ride

Not as sweet as you think

Just tell me to shut up.

Uses loquacious&#8194;in sentences

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Grateful for the day

someone let me off this crazy ride

Listening to the Voices In My Head

Uses loquacious in sentences