I need a gun expert!

sheadakota · Sep 14, 2009

okay- so I am in line edits and my editor is taking issues with the use of clip in reference to loading a handgun (or any weapon) with ammo- she insists it is magazine- I remember researching this very thing when I wrote the book- and I swear I was told clip was correct- the weapon in a colt 45, or a semi-automatic weapon ( she also told me there is no such thing as a .32 semi-auto rutger) :Shrug:

I have no problem correcting this, i just want to make sure she's right-

Anyone?

Mumut · Sep 14, 2009

When I was in the cadets half a century ago, bullets were stored in clips. I forget some of the other names, but the clip of bullets was then pushed into the chamber at the top of the barrel with the bolt pulled back. This allowed the bullets to be pushed quickly to fill the magazine. That was with a .303 rifle but I imagine it would be similar with a colt.

alleycat · Sep 14, 2009

Generally, use magazine. Clip is often used to mean magazine, but it's not technically correct (for something like a Colt .45). Some gun buffs get real huffy about this.

Of course, if the user is not experienced with weapons, such a character might very well use the term clip. So, it sort of depends on who is using the term.

RJK · Sep 14, 2009

she also told me there is no such thing as a .32 semi-auto rutger

I believe it's Ruger and it's a 380.

sheadakota · Sep 14, 2009

Thanks all! arrg Ruger- yeah- hehe- sorry about that- Magazine it is- you guys are the best!

Little Red Barn · Sep 14, 2009

For all semi autos, a magazine is the correct word and clip is just a slang term.

Tiger · Sep 14, 2009

Some weapons use clips. Mauser type rifles and older handguns use stripper clips which are actual metal clips that hold the cartridges (not "bullets") in place while finger pressure strips them into the weapon's magazine. Certain revolvers can use clips as well--full, or half-moon clips that go into the cylindars of some S&W revolvers that take auto catridges. The M-1 Garand of WWII used metal N-clips that held eight cartridges. Did you see "Private Ryan"? The clip was the thing that made the loud "CLANG" after the last round was discharged.

The metal, or plastic device that slides up into the butts of many auto pistols is rightly--but, often not--called a magazine.

Rowan · Sep 14, 2009

I've always used the term magazine.. unless you mean "speed loader" which is sometimes used to load rounds into the mag?

And yes.. Rutgers is a college.. Ruger is the gun!

[Love your avatar!]

Chase · Sep 14, 2009

sheadakota said:
my editor . . . insists it is magazine- I remember researching this very thing when I wrote the book- and I swear I was told clip was correct- the weapon in a colt 45, or a semi-automatic weapon ( she also told me there is no such thing as a .32 semi-auto rutger.

Everyone gave you good information, Sheadakota.

Technically correct, Colt .45 ACPs and Ruger .22, .380, 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP sem-automatic pistols all use magazines.

Alleycat's huffy response (arches back) is also good info, because writers may want to show the gun user is misinformed--as you once were--so he or she says "clip" in dialog, even though it's not perfect nomenclature.

As RJK points out, Ruger doesn't manufacture .32 auto-loaders. Their available calibers are above. However, Ruger does manufacture .32 revolvers.

Side notes that clips are real helps to understand some of the ongoing confusion. Stripper clips are still used to quickly load magazines of various pistols, rifles, and carbines. As pointed out, M-1 Garand clips are essential to the rifle's operation. Two other examples are half-moon clips to allow .45 ACPs to fire in some .45 revolvers, and I have a Ruger .38 Special that uses a "star" clip to hold five 9mm Luger cartridges in its cylinder for firing. No wonder there's some confusion.

Good gun crew here.

Tiger · Sep 14, 2009

My experience is that it's the gun guys who like to show that the writer is misinformed

. If a guy with a safe full of handguns and a rack full of rifles wants to call a magazine a clip, let him, I say.

Chase · Sep 14, 2009

Tiger said:
My experience is that it's the gun guys who like to show that the writer is misinformed.

Too true, Tiger. Too true. Working both sides of the street as a once-upon-a-time professional gun guy and writer, often combining the two, I admit seeing sneers directed at the other from both groups.

At one of the ranges I visit, there’s a joke board. The copies and clippings of misinformation from novels, magazines, newspapers, newsletters, and e-mail fill the board so fast that they’re regularly taken down and pasted into scrapbooks to make room.

The clip-magazine dichotomy is one of the tamest and is mostly ignored as something that won’t change. "Clip" is too easy to say and spell. "Magazine" is too hard. If some writers can’t even hit the shift to make capitals, how do we expect them to input twice as many letters?

But the fault for all the bilge being written rests ultimately with the gun guys and gals. They invent hyperboles so grand as to make anglers and cheating spouses blush. Wannabe gun gurus tout the whoppers as personal experience, and writers eagerly make the falsehoods immortal.

quixote100104 · Sep 15, 2009

Chase said:
The clip-magazine dichotomy is one of the tamest and is mostly ignored as something that won’t change. "Clip" is too easy to say and spell. "Magazine" is too hard. If some writers can’t even hit the shift to make capitals, how do we expect them to input twice as many letters?

One could always split the difference and call them "mags", as many do for short ;-)

sheadakota · Sep 15, 2009

Well at least I feel better knowing that clip and magazine get confused- I researched the info for this book slmost 6 years ago, so my memory is a little sketchy- I spoke with an Army Ranger, a paratrooper, two state troopers and a retired Army Major- thought I had my bases covered-
*sigh*
Just goes to show you nothing beats personal experience-

I can't thank you all enough- I guess I should be greatful those were the only nits she had issues with

and that she is a very thourough editor!

Chase · Sep 15, 2009

None so deaf as will not see

quixote100104 said:
One could always split the difference and call them "mags", as many do for short ;-)

Mark,

After reading the above last night, I asked a shooting partner if anyone at our local range shortened "magazines" to "mags." She said in ASL, "Everyone but you."

I was floored, but I see the truth of it. I speechread and sure enough when she says "mags" and "magazines," they look a lot alike, as the longer word after the "z" kind of gets swallowed in a teeth-clenched smile.

When she and others signs "mag" or "magazine" to me, they use the same two-handed ASL sign indicating the spine of a periodical.

So I’ve been missing the more popular shortened version. Thanks.

Chase

Gary · Sep 15, 2009

It might be slang, but I've always called them a clip and I've never been corrected by anyone. It's a non-issue unless someone chooses to make it so.

FWIW, Ruger calls them magazines, but if I ordered a clip for my LCP, I think they would know what I wanted, and I know they wouldn't refuse my money.

Chase · Sep 17, 2009

Gary said:
FWIW, Ruger calls them magazines, but if I ordered a clip for my LCP, I think they would know what I wanted, and I know they wouldn't refuse my money.

I shared your post to a Ruger official I know, who says they have a form letter prepared for owners who attempt to purchase clips for LCPs.

It says, in part, "we sell 'star' clips for LCRs [light carry revolvers] not LCPs [light carry pistols] and refuse to accept your money."

His understanding is that the company's RNPs (Ruger Nomenclature Police) are now canvassing eastern Texas for anyone named Gary with a LCP who maintains a magazine is a clip. They aim to reform or recall.

I warned they'd have to pry it from Gary's cold fingers. Keep us informed, okay?

Gary · Sep 17, 2009

Funny...when I hear magazine, I always think of those Newsweek and Time things...or maybe the ammo storage room on a ship, or one of those earth covered bunkers just west of Pendleton. Guess it's my age showing.

Oh well, if Ruger won't take my money, I guess I'll have to buy from Colt next time. Besides my clip fetish, I'm also going to continue referring to my automobile as a car and my 1/2 ton truck as a pickup. How does that grab you?

ideagirl · Sep 19, 2009

Gary said:
It might be slang, but I've always called them a clip and I've never been corrected by anyone. It's a non-issue unless someone chooses to make it so.

I've always said clip too. Clips are what my husband and I call the (ahem) clips that we load our semi-auto pistols with (my Beretta, his Sig Sauer). I know the two words are synonyms, but to the extent that there's a difference, I associate "magazine" with the military or police. It's not a word I've ever heard a civilian gun owner use when they were talking about pistols. The only time I've ever heard "magazine" used is when people are talking about assault rifles and the like--which is probably why in my mind it's associated with the military and the police. Big ones (like you see in rifles) are magazines; small ones (for pistols) are clips. That's how it is in my head, anyway, and no one's ever corrected me, nor--like I said--have I ever heard anyone refer to a "magazine" when they were talking about their pistol.

What you see sticking out of the rifle here is the sort of thing I would call a magazine:
http://www.robarm.com/M96 Rifle New Sights.jpg

Whereas the one displayed beside the pistol here is what I would call a clip:
http://www.neaca.com/images/Sterling_Arms_Pocket_Pistols_3_.JPG

That being said, Beretta refers to the "magazine capacity" of my pistol:
http://www.beretta.com/Pistols-Carb...4FS-Cheetah-Nickel/index.aspx?m=82&f=2&id=787
But spare clips are sold as "clips":
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XQRLQC/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

So I think it's basically like the difference between "a dollar" and "a buck"--neither is incorrect, but one is more formal or official.

Chase · Sep 19, 2009

ideagirl said:
Big ones (like you see in rifles) are magazines; small ones (for pistols) are clips.

Amazing. This is sooooo super.

So magazines for cannons, you know anti-aircraft guns, we could call "megamagazines" . . . and clips for little bitty guns we could call "clipettes."

I know, I know! A clip for Beretta would be special. How 'bout a "barrette"?

I hope all writers pick up these cool definitions.

RJK · Sep 20, 2009

To round this thread to an even 20, clip is slang, magazine is the formal term.

Chase · Sep 20, 2009

RJK said:
. . . clip is slang, magazine is the formal term.

Maybe "clip" may be called slang when the speaker or writer really means "magazine," but for those who have carefully followed this thread, clip is actually a "formal" (correct) term for several devices designed to hold cartridges in place for loading magazines and cylinders.

Sure, careless writers can shrug it off, but it's something careful writers want to know, the actual purpose of asking for expert knowledge.

quixote100104 · Sep 20, 2009

Chase said:
Sure, careless writers can shrug it off, but it's something careful writers want to know, the actual purpose of asking for expert knowledge.

True enough. A careful writer might also use it incorrectly, as part of character presentation: a civillian shooter would be more likely to refer to a magazine as a clip, whereas a more formally trained shooter would use the 'proper' term (just like a trained soldier, at least in the US, has been taught to refer to his longarm as a "rifle' or 'weapon', rather than a 'gun', as most civilians would).

Indeed, as this thread has amply demonstrated, one could likely get at least a page of 'filler' text out of an argument between characters of different backgrounds over the correct term ;-).

Chase · Sep 20, 2009

quixote100104 said:
A careful writer might also use it incorrectly, as part of character presentation:

That's true. Alleycat suggested that very thing in post #3.

ideagirl · Sep 20, 2009

Chase said:
Maybe "clip" may be called slang when the speaker or writer really means "magazine," but for those who have carefully followed this thread, clip is actually a "formal" (correct) term for several devices designed to hold cartridges in place for loading magazines and cylinders.

Sure, careless writers can shrug it off, but it's something careful writers want to know, the actual purpose of asking for expert knowledge.

"Careless" doesn't mean "everyone who disagrees with your views on usage." If you're writing a formal piece, such as an instructional booklet for the military, sure, I'd say you want to use "magazine" there--because, like you said, "magazine" is the formal term. But if you're writing a piece in which everyday language is fine or even desirable. "Clip" is no more incorrect for "magazine" than "buck" is for "dollar."

RJK · Sep 20, 2009

If I could point out that this thread began with and editor's exception to the term "clip".

...so I am in line edits and my editor is taking issues with the use of clip in reference to loading a handgun (or any weapon) with ammo- she insists it is magazine- I remember researching this very thing when I wrote the book- and I swear I was told clip was correct- the weapon in a colt 45, or a semi-automatic weapon...

So the answer to the OP's question is in post #20.

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