Pondering The Gunslinger, by Stephen King...

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lucidzfl

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I just started writing the Gunslinger as its a 3rd person semi apocalyptic different universe story. (Much like my own)

One of the things that has spun me round (round round baby right round) is HOW MANY RULES he breaks. Take a look...

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Rule 1: Make your opening chapter exciting.
He opens with the line "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." He then spends 10 pages describing the desert, and the grass, and the mountains and the wind, before finally having the next action. "The gunslinger knelt down and touched the burnt grass"

Rule 2: Adverbs.
All. over. the place. Seriously it was impressive. The thing is, every time he used an adverb, I couldn't come up with a better verb to replace it. Or I could come up with a suitable verb to replace it, but it just read better with the adverb.

Rule 3: General sentence structure, grammar, and dialog.
I can't explain this one other than to say, it reads unlike anything that would normally constitute "good writing" according to the websites/handbooks.

Rule 4: Show don't tell.
There is so much telling here, its mind boggling. I also boggled at how little action there is. In the course of 50 pages or so, maybe only 4 or 5 ACTUAL things happen!

Rule 5: Changing tense / flashbacks
At one point the gunslinger (around page 30 or so) decides to tell Brown a story about how he came to know of the man in black. We get a chapter break and the entirety of the next section is as a flashback in a different tense!

In this flashback he we find out how he came to be in bed with the scarred up bartender. This flashback is not told as if he were telling a story though, its as if it were from a different book.

Then, you guess it, The bartender then has a flashback!
Yes, that's right, a flashback from a different POV, in a different tense, told within a different tense flashback!!!! All within the first chapter!

---

I don't know what I'm getting at here, I suppose. I also realize that King is a master and can therefore break the rules because its assumed that he knows them. I also realize that the old-dog-tired adage of if it works, it works, holds true. (Despite, god almighty how I hate that phrase) The thing is the book si excellent and at no point do I question his motives or methods.

I had the thought, that if I took the first 10 pages of this book and published it under my own name to the syw forum it would be likely be ripped to shreds as boring, not enough showing, not enough action, lack of definition in the dialog, etc, etc, etc. (I see the same reviews/crits in the syw over and over again.)

It makes you wonder, how much do most of us really know about writing?
 

ChaosTitan

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It makes you wonder, how much do most of us really know about writing?

Interesting assessment, but all it really tells me is that this book was published in 1982, it wasn't King's first novel, but it was written in what has become his style (pages of descriptions, adverbs, etc...).

If we're going to study books and figure out what's acceptable in writing, we need to study first novels published within the last three years or so. That will give us a clearer picture of the market and the writing that is being bought.
 

willietheshakes

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The other thing is, from my opinion, The Gunslinger sucks.

Don't get me wrong -- it's fine. It does what it needs to do, which is to set up the series. But on its own, it's... pretty craptacular, for many of the reasons you elucidate above. I've read the first four books of the series a half dozen times and EVERY time it's a matter of struggling through The Gunslinger to get to the good stuff.
 

Cranky

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There is plenty technically "wrong" with The Gunslinger. That said, I like it a lot, mostly for the atmosphere it creates.

Sorry, yeah, but "if it works, it works." I think it very much applies in this case.
 

dgrintalis

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I'm with Jen on this one. King, IMO, is the master of pulling you deep into his stories and his characters, despite adverb usage, etc.. His style just flat out works because it is his style.
 

Ellefire

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I'm a BIG King fan, but it took me two attempts to get through 'The Gunslinger' and the second was after reading 'The Drawing Of The Three', which is far superior.

I don't think 'The Gunslinger' was King's finest moment.

Although it does rank above 'Wizard And Glass', which is mostly boring as buggery. And 'Lisey's Story', which was a particular low spot.
 
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katiemac

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Rule 1: Make your opening chapter exciting.

I disagree with this idea. I think the rule should read "open with conflict," not "make it exciting." And King's first line has conflict.
 

Danthia

Once an author hits mega-bestseller status than could publish their grocery list and get away with it :) Never compare what they do to what the typical writer can do. They're in a class by themselves, for both good and bad.

However, you can study why King did what he did and see why it worked (or didn't) and then figure out how to apply that to your own work. As many here will tell you, anything can work if done well. And everyone has their own opinion on what works and what doesn't.
 

Elegy

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It makes you wonder, how much do most of us really know about writing?

Maybe, if I had written this instead of my post about opinions, people would have listened. Then again, I'm not even going to DARE read the responses to this thread, because I know my temper and I don't need a headache today (you're all perfectly entitled to your opinions, and I'm sure they're good ones, it's just my personal problem, I'm a tad bipolar).

However, this post is the perfect example of what I meant. He follows none of the rules and he's popular as hell. Therefore, I don't really care about the rules. They don't matter as much as people think.

I really loved the Dark Tower series. It was excellent.
 

willietheshakes

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Elegy;4038211He follows none of the rules and he's popular as hell. Therefore said:
There are a number of logical flaws in these sentences and this sentiment, but I'll just say "Good luck!".
 

lucidzfl

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King has definitely got enough of a command of the language that he can choose his words well. I will say that when I read some of his descriptions I wonder if they came off the top of his head or if he put a little [XXX] where he wanted to come up with something cool later.

(Sometimes I'll put marks in my page where I'm stuck on a word or a phrase, and just want to get on with it)

I also think that he's done it for long that you would have to imagine king knows pretty much every verb, adverb, etc that there is and each choice is deliberate.

The problem with most new writers is that adverbs are not explicit choices, they are lazy ones. The point of pointing out adverb usage with newbie writers is to make them think about what they're writing. Trying to find a stronger verb makes them flex their vocabulary muscle.

Notice above I said, "King chose his adverbs perfectly. In no instance could I think of a verb which better replaced it in terms of pacing or description"

For example: Saying "He ran quickly across the field and looked nervously behind him" is not good writing, its lazy writing. There are a thousand better ways of saying the above sentence.

I would not use Stephens mastery and skill as an excuse to further my own laziness.

/derail over
 

Delhomeboy

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I think King was trying to set up his world within the first few pages of the novel, so he could focus on the...idk..."better" stuff later. See, unlike, say, Lord of the Rings, or even Harry Potter, The Gunslinger's never been about Roland's world. Sure, the world is there, and it's important, but beyond "There's a dark tower, with beams that go to it, that hold up the Universe..." and "There was once a city named Gilead that was destroyed where the Gunslingers come from," we don't delve to much into the actual world--we're just told it has "moved on." Which is not a problem, because the Gunslinger was meant to be a character-driven series. So, yeah, I think King was trying to set up the widths and breadths of his world in the Gunslinger, so he would have to sparse it out among the following novels, which were supposed to be about the characters.

So, therefore, it becomes a bit tough to get through. About halfway through, though, it takes off, hits a tremendous high in 2 and 3, starts to slip a little in 4, then collapses into a heap of rubble in 5, 6, 7. :cry:
 
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Prozyan

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"Action", as most people think of it, is highly overrated in a novel opening. Also, strict analysis of when "insertrandomfamousauthorhere" broke "insertrandomsupposedrulehere" is rather futile. A real analysis should involve at least when, why, and how, as well as a large amount of surrounding context.
 
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AdamH

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At the point of his career where King released The Gunslinger, he was a proven commodity and a bankable asset. As someone said, if he threw his name at the front of a grocery list, it would hit the bestseller list (probably because it says "2 severed rat heads" somewhere halfway down).

But if you look at his first actual novel Carrie, he stays pretty true to what we're all learning here.

As his popularity grew and his style came out, publishers gave him free reign.

Still...all writing rules can be broken. Not necessarily a bad thing in the correct hands.
 

Ardent Kat

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I do like King, but I'm not a fan of Gunslinger and it was for characterization reasons rather than writing. Jake, while adorable, was unbelievably precocious and King's "good guy" women in this series are mostly whores and psychopaths who are described with emphasis on their ugly sides, while the "good guy" men are written as noble, competent, and cool--even Eddie was endearing in his doofiness.

Plus Roland was a mind-boggling Marty Stu. I have a hard time believing characters like that who always know just want to do, dispensing wisdom to their more clutzy sidekicks. Meh.
 

Garpy

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I think it needs to be said that Stephen King can write crap books, and indeed has. Several. Imho, when he actually breaks too many of those basic how-to-be-a-writer rules it's because he is being a tad lazy and quite probably he's not being edited quite so tightly as he once was.

Yes, those rules can be broken. Of course they can. But break too many at once (perhaps because you reckon you know better) and your readers will let you know.

I gave up on King years ago, because I got bored of the indulgent style, the endless verbal diarrea and the standard hokey small town character types. But his first few, brilliant, books; Carrie, Dead Zone, FireStarter have stayed with me for two decades.
 

Delhomeboy

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I think it needs to be said that Stephen King can write crap books, and indeed has. Several. Imho, when he actually breaks too many of those basic how-to-be-a-writer rules it's because he is being a tad lazy and quite probably he's not being edited quite so tightly as he once was.

Yes, those rules can be broken. Of course they can. But break too many at once (perhaps because you reckon you know better) and your readers will let you know.

I gave up on King years ago, because I got bored of the indulgent style, the endless verbal diarrea and the standard hokey small town character types. But his first few, brilliant, books; Carrie, Dead Zone, FireStarter have stayed with me for two decades.

Hmmm...indulgent style?
 

lucidzfl

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Hmmm...indulgent style?

I could see rambling about the appearance of the desert for 10 straight pages as indulgent.

It reminds me of mists of avalon when that woman would spend seemingly chapters on end describing the mountains.
 

Jake Barnes

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"Interesting assessment, but all it really tells me is that this book was published in 1982, it wasn't King's first novel, but it was written in what has become his style. . . If we're going to study books and figure out what's acceptable in writing, we need to study first novels published within the last three years or so. That will give us a clearer picture of the market and the writing that is being bought."

Okay, how about "King of Lies" by John Hurt. Published in 2007 and it won an Edgar. A murder mystery with a lawyer as the main character. Absolutely lousy. Flaccid writing that goes nowhere (I'll confess, I only read the first half and that was a real effort). None of the characters are interesting, least of all the main character, who's a big cry baby. Actually, it was his second novel. I started on his first, figuring it was real good and that's what really won him the Edgar, but it was worse!

I think the frustrating thing is you can always find published novels that are crappily written. Searching for a reason why is hopeless and it makes the whole writing-for- publication thing appear to be pointless.
 

Phaeal

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It isn't that you have to do nothing wrong. To be published you have to do one thing really right.

Definitely. This explains the success of so many books that we love to drag over the coals, and that those silly readers who just won't LISTEN to us continue to buy.
 

The Lonely One

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I will never buy the writer's rulebook when it comes to adverbs, adjectives, whatever-have-you.

I'll borrow it from the library and read it extensively; know how and why these rules tick. But I won't spend my hard-earned money on something like that.

My rulebook:

Rule 1: approach voice vigorously
Rule 2: approach language vigorously
Rule 3: approach character vigorously
Rule 4: tell a story (see rules 1-3)

Don't know how that differs from King's rulebook, but I'm sure he's doing an okay job.
 

seun

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If I remember rightly, the first Dark Tower book was originally published as various stories and not as single book which could account for its seemingly odd style. The other issue to bear in mind is King went back to it in the run up to the final DT book and rewrote parts of it. It's not vastly different to the original one published in the early 80s and whether it's an improvement is down to each reader.

Either way, I love each of the DT books. And Lisey's Story was fucking horrible.
 

Delhomeboy

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If I remember rightly, the first Dark Tower book was originally published as various stories and not as single book which could account for its seemingly odd style. The other issue to bear in mind is King went back to it in the run up to the final DT book and rewrote parts of it. It's not vastly different to the original one published in the early 80s and whether it's an improvement is down to each reader.

Yes, and tried to ruin it like he had ruined the series. Ugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, not that the last 3 books are "bad." I've never read anything by King that was "bad." But they are as close to "bad" as I've ever seen him get. Part of that is not his fault...well, kind of his fault...but his whole obsession with "19" (due to his car wreck), as well as his sudden desire to link everything in his universe AND our universe into the story was, just, well, annoying.

Either way, I love each of the DT books. And Lisey's Story was fucking horrible.

My God, am I the ONLY person who loved Lisey's Story?
 
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