Are two (or more) minds better than one?

Good question, maestrowork.

Often crosses my mind.

Apears to work well for Uncle Jim -and others too, perhaps- but then I'm no Uncle Jim and I hesitate to raise the topic with anyone because I wonder if I'll really be able to deliver as much as I might receive.

And being one's own master has its advantages.

I think I'm too much of a control freak to do an actual collaboration, honestly. But I would dearly love to have someone to bounce ideas off of and things like that. I sometimes make my husband listen to my rambles, but he gets upset when I go, "No, that won't work, but maybe...?" So I try not to ask. He's my hubby, it's a totally different relationship, and I'd like to keep it smooth, lol.

I may have to try it sometime, though.

I'm fortunate enough to have scarletpeaches as my writing partner (plus Libbie and Adzmodeus as beta readers), and I absolutely believe that having additional sets of eyes helps my writing tremendously.

SP and I bounce ideas off each other in the early stages...from the vague beginning concepts to the finer points of an outline, picking apart individual scenes, coming up with ideas for themes/motifs. Sometimes it's as big as a massive turning point in the plot, sometimes it's as small as the make/model of the main character's car.

Once we start writing, we look at each other's work as we write it. Literally...we'll copy and paste bits into instant messages and comment as we go. Since we live in opposite time zones, much of our writing is done while the other is offline, so that is reviewed when we're both on...anything written while we're both on is reviewed in real time. This continues right up until the last sentence is written, then we'll read complete manuscripts, etc. She's even written my synopses and queries (including the ones that sold my two contracted/published books).

Everyone's mileage will vary, but for me, forming our unholy alliance was easily the most beneficial thing that EVER happened to my writing.

Now, do we collaborate in the sense that we both write the same book? No, we're always working on separate books. But the amount of influence she has on my work definitely blurs the line between beta and collaborator, so I'll stick to "partner in grime" (since we both write erotica).

At least as far as my writing is concerned, yes, two minds are absolutely better than one.

hmmmm, I think it depends very much on the personalities of the writers.

A few years back, I wrote a western, at the time, a good (ex) friend of mine was giving me feedback. Trouble was, the book was written from the female MC's POV and the friend was a male. He suggested, when he finished his book, that we co-write mine. I remember sending him a chapter and he reworked a scene. There was no difference in what happened in that scene, it's just that he rewrote in his 'voice'. So, it's just as well he got the arse with me over something else, because I don't think we would've done well writing together because of stylistic differences.

I prefer to work on my own, but I'm lucky enough to have a brilliant Beta reader, and others who I can foist my stuff on for opinions!

I'm lucky enough to be able to use my agent for a lot of this "bouncing ideas" thing. She keeps a firm eye on the market and has given me very good advice from that perspective.

I don't think I'd want to collaborate (although I did have fun writing a script with a friend in college) but I'm all for bouncing ideas off someone else. I've worked through a couple plot issues with online writing friends and it's helped me tremendously.

I can't imagine writing a novel or script with someone else. I do not mind receiving helpful criticism, but having someone else rewriting or adding whole chapters - not really.

No, the idea of a co-author has no appeal to me at all. I generally don't bounce ideas either, though I could see that happening if the right relationship developed with the right fellow writer, agent, or editor.

I'm sure it works beautifully for some people, but the thought of co-authoring makes me shudder.

IMHO

I do better with 'other eyes' reading as I go along. Since I have all the 'inside' of my story I sometimes forget that I short change the written part assuming the reader will already know certain things. 'Other eyes' point this out by asking all the right questions.

I think it also helps keep my muse interested in moving forward. The excitement level seems to pick up on my end. Their input, sometimes even their cheers, help me see other areas to expand on. By them seeing it as it goes along it stops me from making some bigger mistakes.

When it finally comes time for full Beta reads...I will want them to read the whole thing and give me the good, the bad, and the ugly. This seems to work for me. Not sure it would for everyone.

James Patterson has more collaborators than anyone else on the planet. If there is an advantage, it doesn't scale well.

maestrowork said:

Have you ever wondered if you should, maybe, have a coauthor or at least someone else to bounce ideas off one another? Maybe the plot you come up with can be much better if you have a collaborator or external feedbacks, instead of just keeping everything in your own head.

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I think that's a question only you can answer.
I've never considered it. Oh, I realize I have my weak areas too but I guess I'm not good at sharing when it comes to writing. I like keeping everything in my own head and only allow two readings of my manuscript by someone else. The first time is when I'm about 3 chapters into the book simply to see if I've done enough to hold a reader's interest. The second is when I've completed the novel and all my rewrites and revision work. In the second reading I'm again looking for my ability to sustain reader interest and to identify confusing areas or those that don't really add to the story. For myself, and that's just me mind you, if I collaborated with someone else and the novel did really well, I'd always wonder if the bits that made it so saleable weren't because of the other person's input.
For me the actual writing is a private, solo affair. If I fall, I fall on my own. If I stand, I stand on my own.

I am lucky to have several people to bounce ideas off of, some of them writers themselves, others just very good readers. I think it's critical to have that kind of input, particularly if -- like me -- talking through an idea helps you parse out the weaker and stronger points.

Collaboration is a far greater commitment. I've only cowritten fanfic, and even there -- when it's just an exercise for fun -- it required careful version control on documents, a strong understanding of how much rewriting we were to do of each other's work, and an outline much more detailed than usual (in order to divide the writing accordingly). It worked for us, and she's someone I would consider trying to write professional fiction with, but I think you need to have a very strong understanding, similar work habits and a shared vision for the final work. That's hard to come by.

When I was doing my playwriting, because they were musical comedies, the music guy was my collaborator. He didn't write the play with me but he did give me ideas on what to incorporate and I went off and incorporated them. It worked well, we had fun and didn't tread on each other's feet too much.

Right now I have someone beta- reading certain scenes for my WIP (erotic paranormal romantic thriller). His feedback has been invaluable and his suggestions have made the work much stronger. Sometimes I'll get stuck and ask his opinion, and his perspective has gotten me out of a hole several times. We have a small window in which we're online at the same time since he's 7 hours ahead of me but that's okay. It gives me a chance to flail around in the work and come up with something good.

True collaboration? Not in the sense of doing equal amounts of writing on the manuscript but yeah, it feels like collaboration. Would I mind a true collaboration? Not with him.

Trish (Stew21) and I are collaborating on a novel together. I would have said it was crazy before I tried it. But, to be honest...this sounds completely different than what you are talking about. We are not discussing it with each other. She writes one chapter, than I write the next, than she writes the next and so on and so on. It's a wonderful experience. But every chapter is a surprise. You write your chapter and kind of think in your head, 'okay...this'll probably happen next'...but then your co-writer takes it in a different but very cool direction. I suppose it's NOTHING like what you're talking about. But I'm LOVING it all the same.

maestrowork said:

Have you ever wondered if you should, maybe, have a coauthor or at least someone else to bounce ideas off one another? Maybe the plot you come up with can be much better if you have a collaborator or external feedbacks, instead of just keeping everything in your own head.

Click to expand...

If you can find someone who gets what you're doing, likes what you're doing, and - most importantly - is, at least a good bit of the time, better than you, it can make all the difference.

My growth as a writer absolutely hinges on the input of such a mentor. It's almost as good as (or perhaps in a way better than) having two brains yourself.

The flip side of that, of course, is that some people don't work that way. I find it invaluable.

thethinker42 said:

SP and I bounce ideas off each other in the early stages...from the vague beginning concepts to the finer points of an outline, picking apart individual scenes, coming up with ideas for themes/motifs. Sometimes it's as big as a massive turning point in the plot, sometimes it's as small as the make/model of the main character's car.

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Which, incidentally, has happened twice now. Lori gave two of my male MCs their rides and at first it was just, "Meh. He should drive this car," then in both instances they became illustrative of other aspects of their personalities. Sometimes I wonder if she knows my characters better than I do.

thethinker42 said:

Once we start writing, we look at each other's work as we write it. Literally...we'll copy and paste bits into instant messages and comment as we go.

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I nearly puked with nerves the first time I did this...and thought, "Nah, she's just being polite." But given that Lori doesn't hold back from telling me when something doesn't work, I feel safe in assuming that her praise is as genuine as her, "Sort it, Shithead!"

thethinker42 said:

...our unholy alliance was easily the most beneficial thing that EVER happened to my writing.

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Are you suggesting I'm some sort of diabolical perv- oh, you are? Okay. Carry on.

thethinker42 said:

Now, do we collaborate in the sense that we both write the same book? No, we're always working on separate books. But the amount of influence she has on my work definitely blurs the line between beta and collaborator, so I'll stick to "partner in grime" (since we both write erotica).

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Grime indeed.

So yeah...what the 'good lady' (*coughyeahrightcough*) said. Lori's not a beta because she doesn't read the final draft and only the final draft, she's more like my books' midwife. From the first twinge to the cutting of the literary umbilical cord. Or something.

Which isn't to say she's a hand-holder, or has a direct influence over what I write, but she definitely has a part to play in how I write. That is, fast. Not worrying about having a shitty first draft. Pushing my own boundaries. (Sorry for the TMI but I'd never written man-on-man before this year).

I think the most important thing we've brought out in each other is an ability to write about subtleties. No, not sugary treats from the 16th century. I mean minor gestures, tells, body language...putting those on the page in a showing-not-telling way. Letting the reader see what the characters do and leaving him/her to make up their own mind rather than spoonfeeding everything.

As for a collaboration? Hell no. I'm too much of a control freak. I'd never co-write a novel with anyone. Not even Lori. We considered a short story/vignette project last year but that's fallen by the wayside. Better to stick to our own books. So a writing partner? I'm all for it. Co-author? Hell. No. Not even if Colin Farrell asked nicely.

its a great question Maestro. I would give anything for someone to bounce ideas off of.

Sometimes I get stuck and I have my own head so far up my ass that I can't see the light of day to know when I've gotten off on a tangent.

"Is this too violent?"
"How do you think someone would respond to that?"
"What makes more sense in this scene?"

I try to ask my wife, but god love her she's not a writer.


Edit: maestro: Just because Rowling did 7 books "by herself" does not mean that she didn't have collaborators, or long talks with her editor(s) etc about ideas.

lucidzfl said:

I try to ask my wife, but god love her she's not a writer.

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My husband is not a writer or even a reader. (He reads almost exclusively for information, not entertainment.) And yet, somehow, he's an amazing first-line editor. He's not the mentor I spoke of earlier, of course.

Your wife may not become a good critique partner, but don't discount non-writers. If someone asks to take a look, it could be worth the risk. You never know what they'll say that could jumpstart the next right course of action.

Just curious, KTC.

I can understand chapters written by each other alternately can create plot twists and turns, but I'm curious as to what happens when the threads require to be brought together and tied up for the ending.

Does the same system work?

KTC said:

Trish (Stew21) and I are collaborating on a novel together. I would have said it was crazy before I tried it. But, to be honest...this sounds completely different than what you are talking about. We are not discussing it with each other. She writes one chapter, than I write the next, than she writes the next and so on and so on. It's a wonderful experience. But every chapter is a surprise. You write your chapter and kind of think in your head, 'okay...this'll probably happen next'...but then your co-writer takes it in a different but very cool direction. I suppose it's NOTHING like what you're talking about. But I'm LOVING it all the same.

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Perks said:

My husband is not a writer or even a reader. (He reads almost exclusively for information, not entertainment.) And yet, somehow, he's an amazing first-line editor. He's not the mentor I spoke of earlier, of course.

Your wife may not become a good critique partner, but don't discount non-writers. If someone asks to take a look, it could be worth the risk. You never know what they'll say that could jumpstart the next right course of action.

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I kind of got the idea that maestro wasn't talking about beta readers or critiquers but someone to form ideas for plot on.

I wouldn't give something to a beta reader that wasn't finished, which means they weren't a part of the creation process.

Correct me if I am wrong Ray, but you were saying having another mind in the creation and formulation of plot and scene, correct?

Perks said:

If you can find someone who gets what you're doing, likes what you're doing, and - most importantly - is, at least a good bit of the time, better than you, it can make all the difference.

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Which reminds me of a conversation I had with Lori the other night. I'll paraphrase myself, but allow the inherent arrogance to stand. I said something like, "I'm not interested in working with someone who's less talented than me or less serious about improvement. That's why I write alongside you, because you're neither of these things."

To which she replied that my strengths cancel out her weaknesses and the same goes for her strengths and my weaknesses.

Working on the same project? I couldn't imagine anything worse. But working at the same time, in the same style? Works for us.

Bufty said:

Just curious, KTC.

I can understand chapters written by each other alternately can create plot twists and turns, but I'm curious as to what happens when the threads require to be brought together and tied up for the ending.

Does the same system work?

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We are attempting full cohesion. Not exactly sure what you mean...but every thread is being carried through. We don't discuss what comes next...but we keep aware of everything that has happened so far and we carry things through. Basically, as if only one person is writing the novel.

If you're curious...here's a link. This is just an experiment, so we're posting it online AS we write the first draft. YOURS, MINE...OURS

I've collaborated before, and it's always great fun. I liked having someone to bounce ideas off of, someone to help design the characters and the world, and another brain to extract plot twists from. We worked well together, and I'd do it again with her. But the trick is definitely finding someone you work well with.

Mostly, though, I have two people I rely on when I get stuck or need to talk something out--my best friend, and one of my betas/crit partners.

I've read some amazing (published) collaborations. I didn't realize until recently that Ilona Andrews is actually Ilona and her husband writing together, and the Kate Daniels books are awesome. Black & White (Jackie Kessler and Caitlin Kittredge) was spectacular, too.