Change the Universe! Mid-stream??

watercayman · Sep 11, 2009

Hi Folks,

Please help.

My critique partner has reached a point in my MS where he’d put the book down and not look at it again because of a major change in direction. I very much respect and value his opinion, but we both thought some other opinions might be helpful before I change a major part of my foundation. Your thoughts would be most appreciated.

Summary:

The book would be marketed as YA Fantasy.
The summary on the back of the book would talk of magic.
Book starts out on Earth, near future, after a disaster leaves all of civilized humans in a single city
Chapters 1,3 = in this utopia. Some light sci-fi elements, no hint of magic
Chapters 2,4 = in savage lands. No sci-fi, only a tiny hint of magic

Problem:

Chapter 5 = the protags go through a stargate / wormhole and end up on a planet that is totally based on magic - BAM! Total and instant change in premise!
Chapters 5-21 (end) all take place in this magic-based world
Our protags learn they have magic power (almost immediately upon arriving) and learn that the cause of Earth’s cataclysm was magical.

My CP felt this changed the whole universe I’d created, and that he was comfortable and enjoying the ‘setup / sci-fi’ universe of the first few chapters.

His suggestion, which was excellent and would solve the issue, was to have the protags stumbling over a bit of magic in the beginning - stuff floating around, etc. However, I wanted the beginning to show Earth had lost the thought of magic, and then learn about it later. So this would change a significant way of looking at the intro.

Is the abrupt change in direction (from future society with cars to a planet with no technology, from no hint of magic to our heroes learning to use magic to ‘win’) a show stopper? A no-no?

bonitakale · Sep 11, 2009

Random thoughts:

1. How about the title? Could that, too, give a hint? Like Magic Lost or something?

2. C.S. Lewis put a preface before That Hideous Strength: A Modern Fairy-Tale for Grownups. The preface begins, "I have called this a fairy-tale in the hope that no one who dislikes fantasy may be misled by the first two chapters into reading further, and then complain of his disappointment."

3. Maybe this is a place for a prologue, whether it's called that or not. Something from the point of view of the magic place, or of an omniscient author. Since you're not concealing from the reader that magic is coming, you could mention its loss, say, without letting the characters in the story know. "After the cataclysm, Earth was magically barren," or, "No planet with a core of iron can sustain magic," or whatever.

watercayman · Sep 11, 2009

Hey - the title idea is interesting!

Currently -"Sanctuary Revealed"

Maybe - "Sanctuary Revealed - Magic refound" or some such.

I'm fascinated by the C.S. Lewis example - thank you for bringing this to light - shows he went through similar...

I guess what I wonder most is: is an abrupt change of setting / foundation / sci-fi world to magic world / non-magic protag to magic protag ... a show stopper, or perhaps are we over-reacting to a major change in direction?

Mr Flibble · Sep 11, 2009

I guess what I wonder most is: is an abrupt change of setting / foundation / sci-fi world to magic world / non-magic protag to magic protag ... a show stopper, or perhaps are we over-reacting to a major change in direction?

It sounds pretty standard for the 'Portal to another world' trope in fantasy.

Maybe you could have your protag wishing there were still magic early on? Reading old stories about it etc, so it's not quite so jarring? ( although tbh, I probably wouldn't find it jarring. I've read plenty of portal stories. I doubt many fantasy readers would turn a hair, particularly if the otehr world is mentioned in ethe blurb - I'd be disappointed if I picked up your book and the other world / magic didn't turn up!.)

lauraannwilliams · Sep 11, 2009

It may be that your summary needs to explicitly state they're ending up in another world ( I find most other-world stories to mention this in the summary ).

It could also be that you're starting your book too early, and the wormhole bit -is- chapter one.

Or you could just need to drop some more hints - random people going missing,or such. Why are they leaving the city? Are they headed for some destination that has a magical myth about it?

You don't necessary have to have explicit magic I think, as long as you bring up the -concept- of magic. A character could be reading a fantasy book, learning a sleight of hand trick, thinking about how cellphone were 'magic' to his grandfather, or running into superstition ( black cat, friday the thirteen ), making a joke about a voodoo doll.. anything thing that brings up the theme of magic.

I think if you sprinkle in references, then it'll be less shocking to switch over to the magical world later on.

watercayman · Sep 11, 2009

Some very helpful, very astute posts (especially considering I haven't given you much to go on as far as a complete summary!). Thank you.

The sprinkle idea was very similar to my CP's ideas. I was hoping to avoid showing our world with much magic, as part of the plot shows that we've lost it on Earth. But - might have to make a little sacrifice to ease the reader and prepare for the jarring change.

Sounds like people might be OK with this major change if it is well stated in the back-of-book summary. (Something my CP didn't have the benefit of). This makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Anyone else feel I might need to throw away my pen on this, or maybe I can go on slugging through editing?

havefaith22 · Sep 11, 2009

I like the idea of the prologue. It shows the reader right off the bat there'll be a magic element in the book and also makes them continue reading to see when it comes into play.

watercayman · Sep 11, 2009

I love prologues in general - and even wrote one for this story.

I took it out after the first edit.

With introducing two protags and their worlds right off the bat, it probably won't work to introduce a third totally different world before it all.

Kitty Pryde · Sep 11, 2009

I don't think you need to throw away the pen. I will suggest that 5 chapters is a long time to get to Fairyland. If they're going to Fairyland, they usually need to get there quickly. In your case, it sounds like you have a science fiction set-up, and then you suddenly switched it to a fantasy novel. I can see where that would be enraging.

I'm not a huge fan of prologues, though in a few cases they are needed. Could you

1. Start later, or compress the first four chapters into something smaller, or

2. put in good clues that something's missing in their world, something unexplainable. Like, the world ended, we don't know how...our ancestors built all these impossible things, we don't know how...something that points to magic at work?

sunandshadow · Sep 11, 2009

You could show earth having lost the thought of magic by having something that looks magic to readers happen and the earth people go 'huh?' and either decide to block it out or decide it was something else, but definitely not magic.

watercayman · Sep 11, 2009

All great ideas - thank you. Most importantly, I'm hoping it may be easily salvagable.

I can't really cut too much more off the beginning - 1.5 chapters for each protag's setting is pretty much as tight as I can make it. Plus - they need to have some fun finding the wormhole thing.

I think the best idea may be to just throw some strong hints out there that they indeed have some slight, untrained magical ability - and even use the word magic, even though it gets laughed at.

ishtar'sgate · Sep 11, 2009

watercayman said:
Book starts out on Earth, near future, after a disaster leaves all of civilized humans in a single city

Chapters 1,3 = in this utopia. Some light sci-fi elements, no hint of magic

Chapters 2,4 = in savage lands. No sci-fi, only a tiny hint of magic

Problem:

Chapter 5 = the protags go through a stargate / wormhole and end up on a planet that is totally based on magic - BAM! Total and instant change in premise!

My CP felt this changed the whole universe I’d created, and that he was comfortable and enjoying the ‘setup / sci-fi’ universe of the first few chapters.

I expect I'd probably agree. IMO you're taking too long to get to the planet where the main part of the story takes place. Your critique partner is voicing what most readers would feel. Stay too long in one world and no one wants to go on to the next. They're expecting you to develop life on earth not to abandon the entire planet and start all over again somewhere else.
Could you compress chapters 1-4 into one chapter? An abbreviated account of life on earth before going to another planet won't allow the reader to get too settled and they'll more readily accept the relocation as part of the same story.
Just my two cents. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Telstar · Sep 12, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
I don't think you need to throw away the pen. I will suggest that 5 chapters is a long time to get to Fairyland.

Ditto.

Stijn Hommes · Sep 12, 2009

I agree with Ishtar. You could solve this by inserting hints of lost magic throughout the first 4 chapters, but it sounds like you started your story way too early.

watercayman · Sep 12, 2009

I can certainly understand not wanting to be switched out of a comfortable zone... like having a Ferrari delivered, looking at it for a few weeks, then starting it and hearing the pinka pinka pinka of a Volkswagon engine!

But I'd like to think, if the summary on the back of the book says something like:

Leela must travel to another world, one where magic rules, to find the answer. If she can discover her own latent powers in time.... blah blah

I wonder if people would expect the change - and enjoy the first 1.5 chapters per protag.

I'd hate to chop out the tiny glimpse of her world in the beginning, before they head to planet x. Seeing the results of the enemy's work is a pretty important part of the story. (I realize it's hard to debate this without seeing the MS).

Again, thank you all very much for your opinions. Such a wonderful thing to hear so many helpful thoughts on how I can dig out of my little hole!

backslashbaby · Sep 12, 2009

Do the people have myths from before involving magic? You could always add an interesting reason one of the old myths is brought up, imho.

I'm another who thinks the 5th chapter is too late

I don't really read things involving portals, usually, so genre will matter, but by Chapter 5 I want to be kind of settled in to a story's bones.

Chap 4 would probably do for me.

Izz · Sep 12, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
It sounds pretty standard for the 'Portal to another world' trope in fantasy.

This.

lauraannwilliams said:
It could also be that you're starting your book too early, and the wormhole bit -is- chapter one.

And this, which a few others have mentioned also. I could *almost* guarantee that you could condense the first four chapters to one/one-and-a-half and lose nothing in the process. I say 'almost' because there's a slim chance i'm wrong. But only slim

ETA:

watercayman said:
I'd hate to chop out the tiny glimpse of her world in the beginning, before they head to planet x. Seeing the results of the enemy's work is a pretty important part of the story. (I realize it's hard to debate this without seeing the MS).

And the reader has to see the results at the beginning of the story? Those results can't be sprinkled in throughout the rest of the story?

bettielee · Sep 13, 2009

You might just need another beta... there are a lot of differing opinions here...

watercayman · Sep 13, 2009

bettielee said:
You might just need another beta... there are a lot of differing opinions here...

Yup - pretty much my conclusion too. Seems pretty clear there are some things I can do to make it more appealing to more readers (cut down the time before entering portal, sprinkle hints along the way, etc), but it also seems clear that how people enjoy a book's structre may be just personal taste.

I'm going to work on mainstreaming it a bit and then eventually find some kind folks to beta it in it's modified form.

Thank you all

Change the Universe! Mid-stream??

watercayman

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

bonitakale

watercayman

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

lauraannwilliams

watercayman

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

havefaith22

watercayman

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Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

watercayman

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

ishtar'sgate

living in the past

Telstar

I create people

Stijn Hommes

Know what you write...

watercayman

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

backslashbaby

*

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

bettielee

I'm a sparkly fairy princess!

watercayman

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

Change the Universe! Mid-stream??

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

i luv you giant bear statue

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

living in the past

I create people

Know what you write...

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

~~~~*~~~~

Doing the Space Operatic

I'm a sparkly fairy princess!

Talks a lot but doesn't say much

*