Another one for the medical experts

Varthikes

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Some time ago, I posted a question about ideas to save a young dragon whose egg had broken during a fight. (I didn't put this in the old thread, because I didn't want people to keep answering the old question and ignoring the new question. I've had that experience.)

Well, the dragon was saved and put in an incubator. Now, it's time for the hatchling to emerge. But, I don't want it to be that easy, so I'm trying to create a complication for the baby. At the moment, I have the dragon suffering from transient trachypnea, but I'm not sure if that would affect a baby emerging from an egg (or, in this case, an incubator) like it would a baby emerging from a womb.

And, the lung fluid (does this stuff have a specific name?) that fills an infant's lungs while in the womb. This isn't the same as the amniotic fluid, is it?

There will also be other consequences later on due to the dragon's egg breaking prematurely, such as not being able to speak telepathically like the other dragons.


Much thanks in advance. :)
 

Shattuck

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You could possibly have the hatchling not develop a proper egg-tooth, which is what most reptiles use to emerge from the egg.

As far as complications with the egg itself, an easy one involves the shell. Eggshells are protein matrices lined with mineral crystals, and the more mineralized, the harder the shell. In some cases, especially with birds and sometimes reptiles, some fluke causes the shell to be hard that the young can't escape from it and have to be helped out.

The outside of bird eggs is also covered in a cuticle which helps to keep bacteria out. A crack in the egg could potentially allow those bacteria to enter it and cause any number of problems, limited pretty much only by your imagination.

As for amniotic fluid, yes that is present in the lungs, but amniotic fluid only exists in humans, and would not be necessary for anything born of an egg. Albumen (egg whites) serve the same purpose in an egg as amniotic fluids do for humans, however.

EDIT: oops, missed the bit on tachypnea the first time. Unless you mess with the science (which, in a fantasy setting is perfectly acceptable), tachypnea is another uniquely human problem, usually caused by excess amniotic fluid in the lungs. However, as the symptoms are a period of rapid breathing, there is no reason that you could not have your hatchling suffer from a similar condition, and just not specifically name it. I doubt any reader would be familiar enough with eggs to be put off by such a small detail, and less so since it is a fantasy book and the reader expects a bit of change.
 
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Varthikes

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Thank you for the help, Shattuck.

The hatchling is actually already out of the egg, since his egg was damaged sometime earlier. He was taken from it and put in the incubator via teleportation. Now, he's being teleported from the incubator to a makeshift nest. So, the complications with the egg-tooth and eggshell wouldn't matter.

But, thanks for the other information. :)
 

GeorgeK

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tachypnea is another uniquely human problem,usually caused by excess amniotic fluid in the lungs.

No, tachypnea just means rapid breathing. Anything that breathes can have tachypnea. It is a normal physiologic response to try to get more oxygen and to get rid of CO2. It is not unique to humans, nor unique to aspiration pneumonia.

However, as the symptoms are a period of rapid breathing, there is no reason that you could not have your hatchling suffer from a similar condition, and just not specifically name it. I doubt any reader would be familiar enough with eggs to be put off by such a small detail,...

It is normal for hatchlings to breathe in a manner that we regard as rapid. It takes a lot of exertion and is likely very painful as well to get muscles to stretch and work in ways that have never been done before.


At the moment, I have the dragon suffering from transient trachypnea, but I'm not sure if that would affect a baby emerging from an egg (or, in this case, an incubator) like it would a baby emerging from a womb.

Anything that raises the CO2 in the blood or lowers the oxygen should result in tachypnea, and that's just about every injury or disease process. It's a non specific symptom.

And, the lung fluid (does this stuff have a specific name?) that fills an infant's lungs while in the womb. This isn't the same as the amniotic fluid, is it?

It's effectively the same in terms of purpose, although the chemical differences reflect the fact that the egg has its food supply inside and the shell is permeable to CO2 and Oxygen (among some other things). It's your dragon egg, name it what you want. It could be that dragon eggs are impermeable to some gas that is dangerous in some way to the developing dragon chick. By not having the shell during a critical phase of development (and therefore being exposed to things it normally wouldn't be exposed to) resulting in whatever ailment you want. Those ailments could be temporary or permanent. In nature, broken egg dragons simply die so this could be new territory scientifically for dragons.

There will also be other consequences later on due to the dragon's egg breaking prematurely, such as not being able to speak telepathically like the other dragons.
Much thanks in advance.
 
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icerose

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One problem that I do know about, if you help a hatching too much out of an egg, chances are they won't get their heartrate up and their body moving and they end up dying. They have to struggle out of that egg. With your dragon already out of the egg, that could be a huge complication. It didn't have to work to get out of that egg and may not ever build up the will to live, so you'd have to do something to get it up and moving.
 

Red Bird

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Aspiration of amniotic fluid is one danger, another is meconium aspiration. Babies, who are overdue will sometimes have bowel movements in the womb and aspirate feces. Now, if your dragon egg was cracked...
But, that's kind of funny in a gross way.
Cheers!
 

Varthikes

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Okay, here's what I have at the moment. The hatchling has just been teleported from the incubator to a makeshift nest, and its difficulty has just been detected. And, as indicated by the use of teleportation, they have 22nd/23rd century (alien) technology at their disposal.

The bolded bits are where proof is especially needed, to make sure I got it right.
“He's having trouble breathing!” the Human doctor told them. “Looks like tachypnea. His lungs are having trouble absorbing the albumen fluid.” He turned to Irentin. “We need to begin giving him continuous positive airway pressure stat.”

Irentin nodded once and turned back to the com-speaker, connecting the line to the infirmary.

Why is he having this problem? Varthikes wanted to know.

Schmeisser considered the question. “I'm not sure,” he finally said as he recalled what he knew of the condition as it occurred in Humans—mostly in infants delivered prematurely, or by cesarean section. The lung fluid is not squeezed out as it would if the infant was delivered normally. But, in young hatched from eggs, he recalled from his studies in the past seven years—so to have something to work with in the event of having to treat a Draconian—the lungs gradually switches over to process oxygen from the atmosphere as the young hatches. He went over this with Varthikes. “It could be that we brought him out of the incubator too quickly. His lungs did not have time to adjust to the change in environment.”
 
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GeorgeK

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Bear in mind, I don;t know your whole story or the state of Human/Dragon Relations, but my first thoughts are

[/QUOTE]
“He's having trouble breathing!” the Human doctor told them. “Looks like tachypnea.

"...at least if he were a human baby I'd think he was tachypnic."

The dragon nodded adding, "his respiration rate is elevated as compared to normal.

His lungs are
probably
having trouble absorbing the albumen fluid.” He turned to Irentin. “We need to begin giving him continuous positive airway pressure stat,
and do you have any recombinant surfactant? It's old but in the early days of neonatology it saved a lot of babies.”


Irentin nodded once and turned back to the com-speaker, connecting the line to the infirmary.

Why is he having this problem? Varthikes wanted to know.

Schmeisser considered the question. “I'm not sure,” he finally said as he recalled what he knew of the condition as it occurred in Humans—mostly in infants delivered prematurely, or by cesarean section. The lung fluid is not squeezed out as it would if the infant was delivered normally. But, in young hatched from eggs, he recalled from his studies in the past seven years—so to have something to work with in the event of having to treat a Draconian—the lungs gradually switches over to process oxygen from the atmosphere as the young hatches. He went over this with Varthikes. “It could be that we brought him out of the incubator too quickly. His lungs did not have time to adjust to the change in environment.” .


It's actually not all that gradual. From an early age (in egg years) O2 and CO2 diffuse through the shell, so apart from whatever the shell might be impermeable to, the unhatched chick is breathing air from day one after being laid. It could be that the chick was hatched too early and there is something about the atmosphere that is not right, but it would not likely be a problem with the CO2 or O2 levels. Undoubtedly advanced dragon science even with today's human science could control for that. It could be virtually anything else (assuming that a tenth of a percentage point in partial pressures of O2 or CO2 don't make the difference, which obviously they might given alien/dragon physiology, but in my reading a book, that would be a point against deniable plausibility for science fact regarding exobiology. I allow for 3 points before tossing a book into the incinerator to keep me warm enough to read the next book). The problem could be Argon concentrations, or temperature fluxes (which wreak havoc on crocodilian eggs), or immune suppression...the list is endless.

Were I the physician, I'd be wondering why they also hadn't contacted a Veterinarian, particularly a large animal zoo vet, and if I'd be eaten for suggesting such.
 

Varthikes

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Perhaps my word-usage was a little off.

From my own research, the embryo within the egg is, like you say, breathing air from Day 1--air that is diffused through the shell. The embryo relies on the egg's chorioallantoic membrane (CAM) for the exchange. Just before hatching, the hatchling breaks through the CAM membrane to the air space that develops between the inner and outer shell membranes, initiating lung ventilation, and transitions from breathing through the CAM to solely relying on its lungs.

And, as for why they don't contact a veterinarian... They are currently on a war ship, and the nearest vet is a little too far away.
 
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GeorgeK

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Perhaps my word-usage was a little off.

From my own research, the embryo within the egg is, like you say, breathing air from Day 1--air that is diffused through the shell. The embryo relies on the egg's chorioallantoic membrane (CAM) for the exchange. Just before hatching, the hatchling breaks through the CAM membrane to the air space that develops between the inner and outer shell membranes, initiating lung ventilation, and transitions from breathing through the CAM to solely relying on its lungs.

And, as for why they don't contact a veterinarian... They are currently on a war ship, and the nearest vet is a little too far away.


Assuming that dragon eggs are like geese and chicken eggs, they will actually break through to the air space inside the egg prior to actually opening the shell. Air spaces only show up in older eggs and are (I assume) due to the embryo maturing. In an incubator you know this has happened because you can hear the chicks chirping, usually 1-2 days prior to the hatching which is in itself a 1-2 day process. If it matters poultry chicks are usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 weeks incubation. I'd assume dragons are longer.

What no veterinarians on a war campaign? Oh right, not since they used mules. Good reason.
 

Varthikes

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I've been sort of modeling my dragons' respiratory development similar to that of birds. It makes sense to me, seeing that dragons are also avians and, therefore, would have similar lungs.

Originally, I was going to have the young dragons incubate for a month, but the requirements of the story forced me to shorten it to one week (after a week developing in the mother). But, I figured, since they're my dragons, I can do what I want with the time table.