Call Me Joe

Smiling Ted · Sep 8, 2009

Way back in 1957, Poul Anderson wrote a terrific short story, Call Me Joe. It was anthologized in the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.

Then I heard about James Cameron's latest movie, Avatar. It's based on "every science fiction story I read as a kid," he says.

The sad thing, as Harlan Ellison will tell you, this isn't the first time Cameron has had a great idea...with an eery similarity to someone else's.

AceTachyon · Sep 8, 2009

From what I've read so far, Cameron hasn't mentioned specific authors or stories, unlike his admission to cribbing off Ellison's "Soldier" and "Demon With a Glass Hand" back on Terminator.

Think Anderson will go to him about it?

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 8, 2009

I own the issue of SFHF where Call Me Joe appeared! This is almost a total rip-off, at least in terms of the remote body concept, and also tapping resources.

Straka · Sep 8, 2009

I think Ellison finally won that lawsuit over Terminator.

AceTachyon · Sep 8, 2009

Straka said:
I think Ellison finally won that lawsuit over Terminator.

Yeah, he did.

The movie now has an acknowledgement to him at the very beginning of the end credits, just after we see Sarah drive off in her jeep into the storm on the horizon.

AceTachyon · Sep 8, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I own the issue of SFHF where Call Me Joe appeared! This is almost a total rip-off, at least in terms of the remote body concept, and also tapping resources.

But concepts can be still be used by other authors. At least, that's my understanding.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have hyperspace/warpspeed/FTL travel, galatic empires, waldoes, robots, and ansibles.

But I think the Cameron-Ellison issue was Cameron saying he got the idea from Ellison but never acknowledging him in the movie credits. Ellison even says, if Cameron had asked if he could riff off "Soldier" and "Demon" Ellison would've been fine with it.

Straka · Sep 8, 2009

And is it just me, but is the word Pandora play out? I can think of half a dozen books, games, programs that use Pandora. (in names of organizations, planets...)

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 8, 2009

AceTachyon said:
But concepts can be still be used by other authors. At least, that's my understanding.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have hyperspace/warpspeed/FTL travel, galatic empires, waldoes, robots, and ansibles.

But I think the Cameron-Ellison issue was Cameron saying he got the idea from Ellison but never acknowledging him in the movie credits. Ellison even says, if Cameron had asked if he could riff off "Soldier" and "Demon" Ellison would've been fine with it.

Well, the way it plays out is pretty similar, too. But you hve a point.

Straka, I would say that certain uses of the word are played out, but not the word itself. I can think of a lot more than half-a-dozen things that use it, but I have never said to myself: "Gosh, that was an unoriginal name."

Smiling Ted · Sep 8, 2009

AceTachyon said:
From what I've read so far, Cameron hasn't mentioned specific authors or stories, unlike his admission to cribbing off Ellison's "Soldier" and "Demon With a Glass Hand" back on Terminator.

Think Anderson will go to him about it?

Well, Poul passed on in 2001. So it's his estate that might. Of course, Cameron wrote his first treatment of "Avatar" in the 1990s, and didn't start production until after Anderson died. Coincidence?

And while a "mere idea" (that's the actual legal term) isn't protected by copyright, the more that idea is embodied in a story, the more protected it becomes. So the fact that "Avatar" isn't just about a surrogate (like the Bruce Willis movie) but about a biological machine, designed for an environment that humans cannot endure but that has a wonder and a beauty all its own, and that the machine is piloted by a human who might come to prefer his life in the surrogate to his "real" one...ALL of those are in Poul Anderson's story.

If that's the heart of "Avatar," I'd say Anderson's family has a pretty strong case.

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 8, 2009

I think there are also a few thematic similarities.

AceTachyon · Sep 9, 2009

Smiling Ted said:
Well, Poul passed on in 2001. So it's his estate that might.

He did?

My bad. I thought he was still around.

There's a couple of Geek Points off for me...

Kitty Pryde · Sep 9, 2009

AceTachyon said:
He did?

My bad. I thought he was still around.

There's a couple of Geek Points off for me...

Mebbe you're thinking of POHL, who is still alive and kicking and pushing 90. He even has a blog!

Manuel Royal · Jan 7, 2010

Avatar also reminds me of Clifford Simak's story "Desertion"; and also of the Outer Limits episode "The Chameleon" (starring a young Robert Duvall). Cameron must have really liked The Outer Limits as a kid.

Etola · Jan 7, 2010

Smiling Ted said:
Well, Poul passed on in 2001. So it's his estate that might. Of course, Cameron wrote his first treatment of "Avatar" in the 1990s, and didn't start production until after Anderson died. Coincidence?

Allowing for the other points you make about the similarities between the stories, the background I heard was that Cameron based "Avatar" on a dream he had when he was a boy, and the desire to make this movie was his primary goal behind getting into film in the first place. He's been fleshing out the world for years. But the reason he's waited for so long, according to at least one interview, is that he has been waiting for technology to be capable of fully realizing what he wanted.

Granted, his childhood reading could have subconsciously filtered into his dreams (it happens), but I am not quite willing to believe Cameron specifically waited till after Anderson's death to begin filming because of any fear of being sued for copying an idea. I think that was, more than likely, coincidence.

eyeblink · Jan 7, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
Mebbe you're thinking of POHL, who is still alive and kicking and pushing 90. He even has a blog!

Not just "pushing" - he got there on 26 November. And he seems to be in good shape, unlike some other SF writers who got to 90 and died shortly afterwards (Arthur C. Clarke, Philip Jose Farmer). The other major genre writer in his 90s is Jack Vance, who is 93 - he's legally blind but his autobiography came out last year.

I'm wondering if one of those two might be the first genre* SF writer to reach 100 - Jack Williamson reached 98.

(*Though if you define "SF writer" as "someone with an entry in the Nicholls/Clute SF Encyclopaedia", Geoffrey Dearmer got to 103 and Naomi Mitchison 101. Though neither were really *genre* writers.)

SPMiller · Jan 7, 2010

F/sf movies have been cribbing shamelessly from written f/sf for ... all of cinematic history, as far as I know. In the written fiction industry, we talk about the low likelihood that anyone will steal your idea, but the movie industry, from what I hear, is totally different. Movie execs/producers/directors love to "borrow" ideas, even from scripts they don't accept, so scriptwriters have adopted a few techniques they use to better protect their ideas. Unfortunately, traditional fiction writers either don't or can't take those steps.

Mac H. · Jan 7, 2010

Smiling Ted said:
Way back in 1957, Poul Anderson wrote a terrific short story, Call Me Joe. It was anthologized in the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.

Then I heard about James Cameron's latest movie, Avatar. It's based on "every science fiction story I read as a kid," he says.

The sad thing, as Harlan Ellison will tell you, this isn't the first time Cameron has had a great idea...with an eery similarity to someone else's.

Aw C'mon.

The idea of a mind-linking with another creature and using them as an Avatar has been used many, many times. It is especially popular in Fantasy as well.

'Call Me Joe' is just one of them. Heck - it was even done in 'Sheena' !

If you are looking for an earlier version of 'Avatar', I'd pick Le Guin's "The World for 'World' is 'Forest'".

It is a **LOT** closer thematically to 'Avatar'.

In 'Call me Joe' there was no battle (or even conflict) between the aliens and humanity. Instead there was lots of interesting discussions about the properties of frozen methane. In fact - it ends with the idea of bringing even more people to Jupiter.

Even without reading 'Call me Joe' as a child, I would have also made the choice for the main character to be a paraplegic outsider .. it is an obvious choice. ('Making your audience sympathetic with the hero')

Mac

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 7, 2010

Mac H. said:
Aw C'mon.

The idea of a mind-linking with another creature and using them as an Avatar has been used many, many times. It is especially popular in Fantasy as well.

'Call Me Joe' is just one of them. Heck - it was even done in 'Sheena' !

If you are looking for an earlier version of 'Avatar', I'd pick Le Guin's "The World for 'World' is 'Forest'".

It is a **LOT** closer thematically to 'Avatar'.

In 'Call me Joe' there was no battle (or even conflict) between the aliens and humanity. Instead there was lots of interesting discussions about the properties of frozen methane. In fact - it ends with the idea of bringing even more people to Jupiter.

Even without reading 'Call me Joe' as a child, I would have also made the choice for the main character to be a paraplegic outsider .. it is an obvious choice. ('Making your audience sympathetic with the hero')

Mac

There have been quite a few instances of telepathic animals in fantasy and even sci-fi. But an empty body controlled by a human is a very rare idea as far as I know.

Perhaps “The Winds of Altair” by Ben Bova, but that was not quite the same, since there is still a real, semi-sentient animal there. “Manta’s Gift” by Timothy Zahn uses a paraplegic, but there’s no avatar. Although, the MC is a spy for the Earthlings. Clifford D. Simak’s “Desertion” has a similar theme to “Call Me Joe” which uses alien bodies to let people survive on Jupiter, and they find a “paradise” to run off to.

geardrops · Jan 7, 2010

Straka said:
And is it just me, but is the word Pandora play out? I can think of half a dozen books, games, programs that use Pandora. (in names of organizations, planets...)

In the face of "Unobtanium" I can forgive "Pandora."

(Note: Haven't seen it. Won't see it.)

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 7, 2010

dempsey said:
In the face of "Unobtanium" I can forgive "Pandora."

(Note: Haven't seen it. Won't see it.)

I think "Unobtanium" was a joke, Dempsey.

Albedo · Jan 7, 2010

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I think "Unobtanium" was a joke, Dempsey.

Once is a joke. Twice was just awkward.

And Pandora is one of the most familiar mythological figures in the Western canon. Any reference to real mythology with its rich layers of symbolism is fraught with peril if you're just looking for a pretty name for your world, IMO. Let's for a minute take the name 'Pandora' to be an earnest allusion on Cameron's part and not just evocative toponymy. Pandora, the first woman, was burdened with the greatest of sins, curiosity, and accidentally unleashed all the evil in the world. Hmm, which female character in Avatar got too curious and unleashed chaos? Is it ~~Ripley~~ Weaver's character? She filled the curious scientist archetype, but her discoveries weren't evil, they were just used for evil purposes. Maybe it's Jake Sully, who while not the first woman might be viewed as (one of) the first of a hybrid human-navi species. He definitely unleashed hell, first on the navi and then on the humans. But then, it was righteous hell in the second instance. And he was hardly a curious character. So where is the analogue to the Pandora myth?

Overanalysis is fun!

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 7, 2010

Albedo said:
Once is a joke. Twice was just awkward.

And Pandora is one of the most familiar mythological figures in the Western canon. Any reference to real mythology with its rich layers of symbolism is fraught with peril if you're just looking for a pretty name for your world, IMO. Let's for a minute take the name 'Pandora' to be an earnest allusion on Cameron's part and not just evocative toponymy. Pandora, the first woman, was burdened with the greatest of sins, curiosity, and accidentally unleashed all the evil in the world. Hmm, which female character in Avatar got too curious and unleashed chaos? Is it ~~Ripley~~ Weaver's character? She filled the curious scientist archetype, but her discoveries weren't evil, they were just used for evil purposes. Maybe it's Jake Sully, who while not the first woman might be viewed as (one of) the first of a hybrid human-navi species. He definitely unleashed hell, first on the navi and then on the humans. But then, it was righteous hell in the second instance. And he was hardly a curious character. So where is the analogue to the Pandora myth?

Overanalysis is fun!

I'd imagine human's in general would fill the role of Pandora.

Xelebes · Jan 7, 2010

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I'd imagine human's in general would fill the role of Pandora.

That's the whole idea of the story of Pandora.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 7, 2010

Xelebes said:
That's the whole idea of the story of Pandora.

I know; but apparently Albedo didn't?

geardrops · Jan 7, 2010

Call Me Joe

Ah-HA!

Odd person

Bored Fanatic

Odd person

Odd person

Bored Fanatic

Ah-HA!

Odd person

i luv you giant bear statue

Still looking for stars...

Barbara says hi

Prodigiously Hanged

Board Visitor

Good thing I like my day job

Alex

Delerium ex Ennui

Good thing I like my day job