The illusion of MS size.

Beb · Jul 5, 2005

So here I am, looking at the first two chapters of my WIP, trying to decide if they should be merged into one. There is a definite flow from one to the other that doesn't require a break. Same character, same general location. On the other hand, they were originally written as two chapters, because the length and the opportunity to break were there. It's the difference between having one chapter that consists of "Guy goes somewhere to do something" and having two consisting of "Guy goes somewhere" and "Guy does something."

I start looking at segments that perhaps should be cut. This paragraph seems weak. This one accidently breaks POV. This one doesn't make sense in context to stuff that comes later.

Well, how long will this new combined chapter be? I wonder. The wheels start turning in my head. Pretty long, it seems. I grab some handy books for reference.

But I'm sidetracked. Sure, they say to write the MS doublespaced, with 25 lines per page, to give 250 fictional words per page. But each novel I grab - hardcover and paperback alike - has much more than that. Thirty-five lines per page...38...42!

Now I wonder about shorter chapters. Objects in this mirror may be closer than they appear. A chapter that is clinging to a meager 8 or 9 pages in manuscript format suddenly seems much shorter.

To top it all off, I look at the last page of Terry Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule (apparently his break-out novel)...Eight-hundred and twenty! With 39 lines per page. I imagine the vast amazonian jungle that must have been clear-cut for his manuscript.

My sense of size is shattered.

So, I guess I want to know how I, as the writer, judge the length of a chapter that is written in the recommended MS format. In other words, how do I tie this MS to reality, in terms of size? Bluntly: How short is too short?

James D. Macdonald · Jul 5, 2005

The shortest chapter that I'm aware of has zero words. A couple of other books have one-word chapters. More than a few have chapters that fill half-a-page. James Patterson seldom gets past five pages.

On the other hand, more than a few novels have no chapters at all -- the work is one long continuous piece, sometimes with line breaks.

So -- how long is a chapter? It depends on how long you, the artist, need it to be.

Slightly related -- the number of pages in a manuscript bears little relationship to the number of pages in the printed novel. The book designer can make the finished work almost any physical number of pages (within certain very broad limits).

katiemac · Jul 5, 2005

Rather than look at line counts and words, why don't you try picking up a couple of books and time how long it takes you to read a chapter at your natural pace? You don't have to start with all opening chapters unless you want to. Then, time the reading of your own chapters. If you like the length of the published chapters you read, and your own chapters fall too short or too long within those times, then you can merge or divide chapters as you feel fit. Don't try to force breaks, though. They should come naturally.

I've never actually tried this exercise, but it's something I plan to work with once it comes to dividing up my chapters. While I naturally write breaks in my drafts, I don't always know whether it will be a scene break or the mark of a new chapter.

Since the publishers can format 50 or 100 pages of an MS into one page if they want, it's difficult to use the page count of published novels as guides. (UJ explained this above. I cross-posted.)

Jamesaritchie · Jul 5, 2005

Beb said:
But I'm sidetracked. Sure, they say to write the MS doublespaced, with 25 lines per page, to give 250 fictional words per page. But each novel I grab - hardcover and paperback alike - has much more than that. Thirty-five lines per page...38...42!

Now I wonder about shorter chapters. Objects in this mirror may be closer than they appear. A chapter that is clinging to a meager 8 or 9 pages in manuscript format suddenly seems much shorter.

You can't compare a published novel to a manuscript. Try typing a few chapters of a published novel in manuscript format. This gives you a truer picture. Manuscripts have double spacing and line count for editing purposes.

As for chapter length, there is no standard. They say a person's legs hould be long enough to reach the ground. A chapter should be long enough to reach from beginning to end.

A chapter is written the way it is to give a desired reaction. Chapters have structure and purtpose, just as do paragraphs, but like paragraphs, any length is fine, if it does what it's supposed to do.

There's general a reason why writers begin and end chapters where they do, but length is seldom much of a factor.

Most chapters are written around a given scene or location or event. Most chapters have a logical starting point, and a logical ending point. But you have to work it all out for yourself, according to how you write, and whatever it is you want your chapters to achieve.

aruna · Jul 5, 2005

How long is a piece of string?

Mistook · Jul 5, 2005

I would say, if you're in the same setting and time frame, don't break into two chapters. Finish the business at hand.

Garpy · Jul 6, 2005

You are best using word count to judge the size of things since publishers play around with line spacing, font size and spacing to either pump up 'thin' books, or slim down 'fat' books. Word count per page in printed books varies hugely...from 250-500 words!!! So just stick to word counts to analyse the size of your ms.

As for chapter size....imho, you need to bear in mind what genre you're writing in and fit the chapter size to that. For example, young adult novels tend to have chapters of about 1500-2500 words....nice digestible chunks that fit into a bus journey. Historical dramas and more literary works...up to 5000 words. So my advice is to look at a few same genre books, calculate the word count per page, and see how many pages on average per chapter and use that as your guideline.

I'm not sure the maxim...'your story will present the breaks naturally'...is true. I think you need to be in control of the structure, know how to tease the chapters to offer the most rewarding, and page turning experience. Dan Brown, cruddy and cheesy though he is, certainly structured a tale that appealed to many people, and made him flipping rich in the process.

Of course, if commercial success is not the goal, ignore all of my comments above ;-)

loquax · Jul 6, 2005

I normally end my chapters on some kind of cliffhanger - be it big or small. The question you have to ask yourself is "When they finish this chapter, will they put the book down for a rest, or keep reading into the next one?"

Andrew Jameson · Jul 6, 2005

Mistook said:
I would say, if you're in the same setting and time frame, don't break into two chapters. Finish the business at hand.

Mmmm... I agree with this as a general rule, but I think it's a rule made to be broken. For example, at the end of chapter six in my current work, two of my POV characters meet for the first time in the novel, under peculiar circumstances -- and are surprised to recognize each other. I start chapter seven in exactly the same time and place I end chapter six (but switch POV to emphasize the break).

I think this works pretty well (although I'm obviously biased) because, unless they've been reading *very* carefully, the unexpected recognition catches the reader off-guard and gives a good reason to turn the page. At the same time, the obvious spot to pick up the story in chapter seven is the same time and place same place it left off in chapter six.

Although I would be interested in comments on the appropriateness of such a scheme.

allenparker · Jul 6, 2005

I think that chapter length...

is a function of the story, itself. Varying breaks in a story can be used to your advantage if you use the break placements to help set the timing and speed of the read.

This may not always be possible. I write short story collections, novellas, and other short works. In assembling them, I have the opportunity to manipulate the break points so that I can either encourage the reader to continue reading, or allow him to find a break point where he can stop and return later.

In your case, it might be good to look at what you want to accomplish by stopping at the point you broke the chapter. If there is a need for a momentary break, take it. If the story continues, combine the chapter.

<advice offered by me is worth what you paid for it.>

Allen

Beb · Jul 6, 2005

Thanks for all the great responses, guys. Comparing word count, or read times both seem like good ideas to get a general idea of length.

Looking back on these answers, I wonder about the purpose of chapters in general. When reading, I always stop for the day between two chapters, but I don’t stop at the end of every chapter. I guess I’ve always though of them like highway rest-stops. They’re there if you need ‘em, but if not, then drive on past.

When I’m writing I tend to feel the chapter break come on, and just put it in. Each chapter is sort of a single scene, or episode. I do sometimes end on cliff hangers (“Come with me if you want to live!”) But sometimes I just try to foreshadow in order to tease the reader into continuing (They entered the forest. Somewhere, a wolf howled at the moon.)

Having an extremely short chapter seems like an odd artistic choice. Obviously, the author would have their reasons, but what could those reasons be? It isn’t he rest-stop idea, if the chapter is one (or zero!) words long. Something terribly important might warrant it’s own chapter. For example, if a general was making plans for a great battle in a civil war, that hinged on good weather conditions. The next chapter might simply consist of the four words: “That night, it rained.” (Personally, I’d use that sentence at the end of a chapter.

I guess a sci-fi author might try something really sneaky, like having every chapter that is written from the POV of his robot hero be a prime number, or some other easter egg.

As Uncle Jim said, some books don’t have any chapters at all.

So, anyone that is still interesting in discussing this: Other than acting as a possible resting point for the reader, what do you use a chapter for?

(edited due to bizarre formating)

Beb · Jul 6, 2005

Andrew Jameson said:
I think this works pretty well (although I'm obviously biased) because, unless they've been reading *very* carefully, the unexpected recognition catches the reader off-guard and gives a good reason to turn the page. At the same time, the obvious spot to pick up the story in chapter seven is the same time and place same place it left off in chapter six.

Although I would be interested in comments on the appropriateness of such a scheme.

It sounds like the sort of thing I would do. The "Whhaaa??" moment of the surprise meeting will make the reader want to continue. At the same time, I am guessing that this meeting changes the situation. For example, meeting your aunt at a swingers party (eep!). Something like that calls out for a new chapter, making 6 "Flash Gordon Goes to the Party" and 7 "Flash and the Daring Party Escape."

loquax · Jul 6, 2005

I've found quite a good use for a chapter break. In my story, there are a few odd dream sequences. I'll often have the main character go to sleep, but instead of having the dream the next paragraph, or even with a line break, I'll switch to a new chapter that is often only one paragraph long.

Why? Because it's not the dream of the MC at all - it's the dream of another character. The trickery makes the reader think its the MC's, but the chapter change allows for it to be anyone's. They only find out near the end. Mwahahahahahhahaha!

Mistook · Jul 6, 2005

My story has an epic scope to it, so if I end on a cliff-hanger with one character, the next chapter will take-up with a different character and setting to update one of the sub-plots. That way I'm always one or two cliff-hangers ahead of the reader.

Sometimes I'll do the opposite and run through different POV's scene by scene in a fast paced chapter.

I'll also begin a new chapter for a new day.

katiemac · Jul 6, 2005

I use chapters not necessarily for the reader's convienance, but more for dramatic feel. It's another tool authors can use to get the most out of the story. These breaks, whether they're scene breaks or chapter breaks, act like reading inbetween the lines. Depending on the last line at which you break, the cuts can work to foreshadow, add suspense, or draw questions. It's also a moment where, if only for a mere second, the story stops and everything can "sink in."

Maryn · Jul 7, 2005

I don't know about the rest of the world's readers, but as a busy person with scattered reading time instead of uninterrupted stretches, I'm definitely biased toward chapter breaks at the least excuse. I feel comfortable setting down a book at the end of a chapter (or a section break), and annoyed when a chapter goes on and on when my time to read does not. (Haven't you ever realized you needed to stop and flipped pages, then scowled when you see there are 12, or 20, to go before the chapter ends?)

So my preference is to break for a fresh chapter when there's a plausible reason to--even if you don't have to.

Maryn, who abandoned Owen Meaney for long chapter violations

Thekherham · Jul 7, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
The shortest chapter that I'm aware of has zero words. A couple of other books have one-word chapters. More than a few have chapters that fill half-a-page. James Patterson seldom gets past five pages.

On the other hand, more than a few novels have no chapters at all -- the work is one long continuous piece, sometimes with line breaks.

So -- how long is a chapter? It depends on how long you, the artist, need it to be.

Slightly related -- the number of pages in a manuscript bears little relationship to the number of pages in the printed novel. The book designer can make the finished work almost any physical number of pages (within certain very broad limits).

Whoa! A chapter with zero words?? Just a blank page??

That must have taken some imagination.

pepperlandgirl · Jul 7, 2005

I noticed all my chapters seem to be about 2000 words. At first, I was baffled. And then I realized my chapter breaks come when I'm done writing. And I usually need a break after 2000 words.

When I revise, I sometimes put chapters together because the only reason there's a break was because I needed a diet Coke or something.

Beb · Jul 7, 2005

Maryn said:
(Haven't you ever realized you needed to stop and flipped pages, then scowled when you see there are 12, or 20, to go before the chapter ends?)

Yes, I've been there before. It usually happens when I've already been reading longer than I've meant too, and the book tricks me into saying "Ok...just one more chapter..."

And that's when they pounce, not from the front, but from the sides...the twenty extra pages you didn't even know were there.

On the other hand, it's entirely plausible to me that sometimes you just can't stop the chapter until the scene is done, and that means gritting your teeth and praying the reader agrees with you.

Ronda · Jul 8, 2005

My tendency is to do what feels natural. I figure an editor is probably going to argue with me on any number of issues, so I'll just keep writing and making the ms the best I can make it.

I'm a big fan of Terry Goodkind. Keep in mind he's writing epic fantasy, so his books are all REALLY long.

I tend to agree with one of his main characters, Zedd, who says to Always look at the solution, never at the problem. The solution is to produce high quality writing. The problem is head games that keep us from producing.
Warmly,
Ronda

The illusion of MS size.

Beb

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

katiemac

Five by Five

Jamesaritchie

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Garpy

keyboard monkey

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Andrew Jameson

(not his real name)

allenparker

Naked Futon Guy

Beb

Beb

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Mistook

Neverending WIP

katiemac

Five by Five

Maryn

I Tried

Thekherham

The Alien Writer

pepperlandgirl

American Aquarium Drinker

Beb

Ronda