Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

The Lonely One · Sep 21, 2009

Jeez you guys--I'm having trouble getting UP to wordcount on a novel!

Which leads me to this question, Uncle Jim:

For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works? I've found that regarding each chapter as a short story with its own pitfalls and arcs and such helps me visualize each step--but are there flaws in thinking of it this way?

Curious, as I'm notoriously bad at extending my thoughts past 3k words.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 21, 2009

allenparker said:
Battle of Belmont? Who wins this time?

The Yankees win tactically, the Confederates win strategically, but more important (from my point of view) Edward George Washington Butler dies there, and a passing Union soldier picks up his sword.

Delhomeboy · Sep 21, 2009

SoloArtist said:
Yeah, I'm curious about that because fantasy novels tend to be longer than most. I've seen novels by new authors in this genre that are pretty darn big, and bigger than that. I've got a 662-page work by first-timer Patrick Rothfuss on my shelf.

But have you seen what he had to go through to get it published? He started submitting it before 2002, and still had to gain widespread acclaim before someone took a chance on it.

Now, if you have serious credentials, go for it. But (and I don't know if this is true or not) if this is your first novel and you don't have many credentials...eh...I just don't know. Certainly publishing is one of the most fickle and arbitrary industries in the country.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 21, 2009

1) 100,000 No problem
2) 125,000 Publishable
3) 150,000 Starting to be a problem
4) 175,000 Problem
5) 200,000 Probably won't happen

But, as always, there's the Genius Exception. And, regardless, you must make every word the right word.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 21, 2009

The Lonely One said:
For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works?

Add more plot.

A short story has a single effect. A novel has multiple effects. That's the main difference.

I've found that regarding each chapter as a short story with its own pitfalls and arcs and such helps me visualize each step--but are there flaws in thinking of it this way?

You can wind up with an episodic and disjointed narrative, or an anthology. Rather than layering stories on top of each other like a cake, with each chapter being a short story, try slicing those short stories lengthwise and packing a part of all of them into each chapter.

Curious, as I'm notoriously bad at extending my thoughts past 3k words.

Or, it could be that you just aren't a novelist.

motormind · Sep 21, 2009

The Lonely One said:
For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works? I\

Just keep typing.

Krintar · Sep 21, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
You can wind up with an episodic and disjointed narrative, or an anthology.

I've actually been thinking of writing something like this deliberately. A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books. This would be after my first (proper) novel is out the door (possibly after the second or third or what have you - however long it takes until I feel they're 'done').
Would something like that be likely to sell, given that it wouldn't be a first novel, or is there not really a market for one-author, one-world anthologies nowadays?

Delhomeboy · Sep 21, 2009

Krintar said:
I've actually been thinking of writing something like this deliberately. A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books. This would be after my first (proper) novel is out the door (possibly after the second or third or what have you - however long it takes until I feel they're 'done').
Would something like that be likely to sell, given that it wouldn't be a first novel, or is there not really a market for one-author, one-world anthologies nowadays?

I read a book called Kissing in Manhattan that was pretty much like this, and it was that guy's first work, if I recall. But would it be LIKELY to sell? I don't think so, not with us just now coming out of a recession.

blacbird · Sep 21, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
1) 100,000 No problem
2) 125,000 Publishable
3) 150,000 Starting to be a problem
4) 175,000 Problem
5) 200,000 Probably won't happen

But, as always, there's the Genius Exception. And, regardless, you must make every word the right word.

And the "problem" part of this problem extends beyond the quality of the writing. A lot of agents won't even look at something at 150,000 words, because a lot of publishers won't. For many, the limit is even lower than that. No matter how brilliant the writing is, if you can't get anybody to read the manuscript, you're going to have trouble getting it accepted for publication.

caw

Judg · Sep 21, 2009

Krintar said:
I've actually been thinking of writing something like this deliberately. A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books. This would be after my first (proper) novel is out the door (possibly after the second or third or what have you - however long it takes until I feel they're 'done').
Would something like that be likely to sell, given that it wouldn't be a first novel, or is there not really a market for one-author, one-world anthologies nowadays?

Tales from Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin, long-established author writing in a familiar fantasy world in a genre that still seems to love short stories.

Bloodletting and Miraculous Cures by Vincent Lam, first-time author and doctor writing literary/contemporary short stories connected by the medical environment and some of the characters. Mind you, he came with an endorsement by Margaret Atwood...

So, not common, but not unheard of.

DeskBoundTeaDrinker · Sep 21, 2009

Krintar said:
A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books.

Honestly, I know that I'm often a contrarian but I love things like this, and have thought of doing the same. And - I'll try new writers more easily if I can find their stories first. I'd heard of some guy named Neil Gaiman for a while but never read anything of his, then read a flash fiction I liked and picked up his two books of short stories - loved a few, was "eh" to others (dude, werewolf PI isn't working) but enjoyed enough to go to his full length novels. Which I have not enjoyed as thoroughly as some of those stories.

I know this isn't optimally marketable by today's marketplace standards but I still favor the concept as well....

James D. Macdonald · Sep 21, 2009

Single-author collections are hard to sell. This is because it's hard to get readers to buy them.

(Being a "contrarian" is all very well, but are there enough "contrarians" in the book-buying public to make it worthwhile to roll the presses and for bookstores to order in profitable numbers?)

The number one reason anyone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed something else that same author has written.

That's the same reason it's hard to sell long works as first novels.

The publishers have a pretty fair idea how many copies any first novel will sell.

As the number of pages goes up, the price per unit goes up. As print runs go up, the price-per-unit goes down.

You graph those out. Do the lines cross above or below the expected sales of a first novel? If they cross below that number, there's a chance the book will get bought. If they cross above that number, it's probably not going to get bought.

Now you understand that there is a maximum price that most readers will pay (even for a long-awaited book by a favorite author). And there is a minimum price that the publisher can charge if they're going to break even, given bookstore discounts and returns.

By the time you get to a second or third novel, the publisher has a fair idea of how well you sell. Which will be different from, and (I hope) higher than, the number that a generic first-novel sells. If it's enough higher, then you can sell that longer tome.

Stijn Hommes · Sep 22, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
8,000 words? That's 32 pages. That's six hours' typing if all you can manage is 20 words per minute.

Sit down. Rewrite it from memory. It'll be better. Promise.

Above all else, if you have a day job, writing has to be fun. That said, you should have a go at rewriting, you might get the spark again when you get in the swing of things, and Jim is right when he says it's not that much of a commitment...

Stijn Hommes · Sep 22, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Why not? Play with everything you know. How can it be wrong? Professional magicians may have a favorite card force, but they know a dozen different card forces in order to be able to select the best one for the circumstances. And, in case the force fails, they know another direction to take the trick so that the audience is still entertained.

Only you can decide the best way to tell your story. Your decision will be based on your experience. What you can do will be influenced by the tools you've packed into your tool box.

Yes, learning a new trend is a good thing even if it's only to expand your horizons. I'm dabble in magic too, but I'm still an amateur, I've been paid more for my writing. I know plenty of card forces, but I only ever use one because I don't need any others. The key to being a good magician, especially when you're creating magic, is to know as many moves and principles as you can so you can apply them to your new ideas. Writing is not very different.

allenparker · Sep 22, 2009

Not Uncle Jim, but ...

The Lonely One said:
Jeez you guys--I'm having trouble getting UP to wordcount on a novel!

Which leads me to this question, Uncle Jim:

For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works? I've found that regarding each chapter as a short story with its own pitfalls and arcs and such helps me visualize each step--but are there flaws in thinking of it this way?

Curious, as I'm notoriously bad at extending my thoughts past 3k words.

Perhaps you are using your short story skill set for your longer works. The two are not the same. IN a short story, you need to tell the story economically. No extra words not necessary to the plot or setting. In a longer work, you have the luxury and the responsibility to splurge.

Think of your short work as a sketch of a beautiful woman lying on a table. The charcoal sketch details with shading and white contrasts.

Now see the same woman done in a full color painting. The depths of color and the range of visual contrast offer a better likeness of the woman.

Some of the analogy falls apart, but the basics are the same. Paint a colorfully detailed picture of your story with full depth and a wide range of the surroundings.

That's what lives in my world. Your world may be different.

The Lonely One · Sep 22, 2009

Thanks everyone for the responses. I think it's a practiced tendency of mine to contain an idea and a story and a character in a few thousand words.

I've written a good 16,000 words on a first-attempt novel, though I am sort of out on a limb shooting for 100k (I'll be lucky to get 60k, if I'm honest with myself).

So, as much as I'd like to believe so I don't think it's a matter of motivation or continuing to write by will as it is me sloping my plots too soon for a novel.

Practice practice practice?

Thanks again UJ and others.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 22, 2009

Wayne K said:
Uncle Jim, Does it bother you that I'm asking questions about posts you made six years ago?

ETA: I loved The Haunted Author. I'm about to start MTM, and the predator agent I found was in WD. I wish I had found this thread a year ago.

No, I don't mind (though it would be useful to put in a link to the post, so folks playing at home can follow along).

Ken Schneider · Sep 22, 2009

Check out agent Janet Reid's response to a query letter someone sent in for critique to her. Notice particularly her comments on the length aspect

Yes, dear Janet. I've known her for a few years.

Well, actually Shree Bykofsky recommended Janet to me saying, 'I meet her at a recent conference and she impressed me. She's a new agent.'

Janet was reading mss on Messerole then. Now she has a downtown addy.

Just spoke to her through e-mail last week. She's doing well.

She started her agency back in '04 or '05.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 23, 2009

Ah, I see, Wayne. You're up to post 87 in this massive thread?

HConn · Sep 23, 2009

The Lonely One said:
Thanks everyone for the responses. I think it's a practiced tendency of mine to contain an idea and a story and a character in a few thousand words.

I've written a good 16,000 words on a first-attempt novel, though I am sort of out on a limb shooting for 100k (I'll be lucky to get 60k, if I'm honest with myself).

So, as much as I'd like to believe so I don't think it's a matter of motivation or continuing to write by will as it is me sloping my plots too soon for a novel.

Practice practice practice?

Thanks again UJ and others.

Can I make a suggestion? What if you were to write a novel with multiple POVs and interlocking stories? Five characters would come out to 18k-20k words each.

You could even write much shorter chapters, with many more viewpoints and call it a "mosaic novel."

bettielee · Sep 23, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Ah, I see, Wayne. You're up to post 87 in this massive thread?

I really want that t-shirt.

The Lonely One · Sep 23, 2009

HConn said:
Can I make a suggestion? What if you were to write a novel with multiple POVs and interlocking stories? Five characters would come out to 18k-20k words each.

You could even write much shorter chapters, with many more viewpoints and call it a "mosaic novel."

Actually it's funny you say that because I think the momentum of my WIP is based on there being three main characters and others who all get screen time (omniscient).

You're right, it is quite helpful. My shorts usually grab once MC or two at most, and others are stringers without much time spend dissecting them.

I'll always love short stories. It's just the way my mind works. But I think the written novel is within my capacity to learn. AW is helping a lot with that as well.

smsarber · Sep 23, 2009

Wayne K said:
I'm usually one who skips past the work and suffers because of it

Maybe we were seperated at birth. I still haven't gone through the whole thread, even though I know how much gold really is in it.

HConn · Sep 23, 2009

Agent Jennifer Jackson talks about the advances debut writers receive (http://arcaedia.livejournal.com/211206.html -- I can't get the link button to work here at day job, and I don't know the square bracket coding) prompted by an email from a real estate agent asking her to forward a listing for a 2.5 million dollar mountaintop retreat to her writers.

Related: Donald Maas offers a free ebook, (http://www.maassagency.com/books.html) which, in part, talks about why some writers make six-figures every year, and what they have in common.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 23, 2009

Yet another plot generator: http://wondermark.com/554/

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