Plurality

Bravo · Aug 30, 2009

i have trouble with plurals sometimes.

can someone tell me if this sentence is correct?

"What will it take for newspapers to reclaim their role as public guardian?"

should "role" and "guardian" be plural?

thank you

CatSlave · Aug 30, 2009

I think 'role' would be singular and 'guardian' plural.
There is only one role, that of guardian, but there are many newspapers, each of which is a guardian.

Then again, maybe I'm just confusing myself...

Duncan J Macdonald · Aug 31, 2009

CatSlave said:
I think 'role' would be singular and 'guardian' plural.
There is only one role, that of guardian, but there are many newspapers, each of which is a guardian.

Then again, maybe I'm just confusing myself...

Nope, you're not.

"What will it take for newspapers to reclaim their role as public guardians?"

Now the answer to that question ...

PeterL · Aug 31, 2009

Both should be plurals, and you are already using a plural pronoun with "role". If you don't want to make "role" a plural, then drop or change the 'their', but I can't think of what you would change that to. .

"What will it take for newspapers to reclaim their roles as public guardians?"

RJK · Aug 31, 2009

Wouldn't you be considering 'newspapers' as a singular group? Therefore, 'role' and 'guardian' would be singular.

Wayne K · Aug 31, 2009

RJK said:
Wouldn't you be considering 'newspapers' as a singular group? Therefore, 'role' and 'guardian' would be singular.

What I thought.

PeterL · Aug 31, 2009

RJK said:
Wouldn't you be considering 'newspapers' as a singular group? Therefore, 'role' and 'guardian' would be singular.

Each newspaper would have its own role as a guardian; therefore, both "role" and "guardian" should be a plural. If the newspapers were acting as a unit, then there would be a single role filled by the collective, but newspapers only act together when there is an attack against them as a unit.

Bravo · Aug 31, 2009

this is so confusing!

i dont think roles should be plural.

this is a mess.

i sent it wrong.

IceCreamEmpress · Aug 31, 2009

Any of these three is correct: "their role as public guardian" (if you mean that the entire group of newspapers is working as one to be a public guardian) or "their roles as public guardians" (if you mean that each newspaper has a distinct role as a public guardian) or even "their role as public guardians" (if you mean that all newspapers have one role, to be public guardians).

PeterL · Aug 31, 2009

IceCreamEmpress said:
Any of these three is correct: "their role as public guardian" (if you mean that the entire group of newspapers is working as one to be a public guardian) [/quote}

This would require that "their" and "role" agree in number, and that would require that "guardians" be plural. The concept is fine, viewing the press as a single entity, but that would be written as "its role as public guardian"

Xelebes · Sep 1, 2009

PeterL said:
This would require that "their" and "role" agree in number, and that would require that "guardians" be plural. The concept is fine, viewing the press as a single entity, but that would be written as "its role as public guardian"

Not always the case.

Take for example:

Their cat's green couch

Their play on words

Both have a singular noun(s) following a plural pronoun and are correct.

PeterL · Sep 1, 2009

Xelebes said:
Not always the case.

Take for example:

Their cat's green couch

You are right here. I assume that a couple owns a cat.

But I doubt that

Their play on words

is correct. I can't imagine several people making a single play on words together. It would be correct, if such a thing happened, but...

I recognise that there are times when a plural adjective can be applied to a singular noun, but those are not common events.

IceCreamEmpress · Sep 1, 2009

PeterL said:
This would require that "their" and "role" agree in number, and that would require that "guardians" be plural. The concept is fine, viewing the press as a single entity, but that would be written as "its role as public guardian"

I disagree. This is why more than one style manual exists in the world, though. If you're ever my editor, I'll follow your rules, and if I'm ever your editor, you'll follow my rules. Let a thousand flowers bloom! Let a thousand schools of thought contend!

PeterL · Sep 1, 2009

IceCreamEmpress said:
I disagree. This is why more than one style manual exists in the world, though. If you're ever my editor, I'll follow your rules, and if I'm ever your editor, you'll follow my rules. Let a thousand flowers bloom! Let a thousand schools of thought contend!

OK, and thousands of newspapers can somehow have a single role. That would call for some real celebration, or something.

absitinvidia · Sep 1, 2009

PeterL said:
I can't imagine several people making a single play on words together. It would be correct, if such a thing happened, but...

In the case of co-authors, I can imagine saying "their play on words" or "their take on the subject." In fact, I've seen it fairly often in reviews.

Xelebes · Sep 1, 2009

PeterL said:
You are right here. I assume that a couple owns a cat.

But I doubt that is correct. I can't imagine several people making a single play on words together. It would be correct, if such a thing happened, but...

I recognise that there are times when a plural adjective can be applied to a singular noun, but those are not common events.

Imagine for a second that a group uses a single play on word. It's one single example but everybody uses it. Thus it is singular.

If there were several examples of plays on words, then it would obviously be plural.

There is something to be said about distinguishing between those two.

PeterL · Sep 2, 2009

Even with co-authors a joint word play would be kind of strange. I can readily imagine one person say something that suggested a word play to another, but I wouldn't think that the final word play was a joint creation; although the larger work into which it might go would be joint.

boron · Sep 2, 2009

Bravo said:
i have trouble with plurals sometimes.

can someone tell me if this sentence is correct?

"What will it take for newspapers to reclaim their role as public guardian?"

should "role" and "guardian" be plural?

thank you

I think:

"What will it take for newspapers to reclaim their role as public guardians?"

All newspapers have one general role (to be a guardian), so role is in singular. But newspapers are different, so they are different guardians.

Like they sometimes call policemen as "guardians of order".

It would be all in singular in this case:

"What will it take for the press to reclaim its role as a public guardian?"

PeterL · Sep 2, 2009

boron said:
"What will it take for the press to reclaim its role as a public guardian?"

I think that this would be better than the other ways to put it.

Plurality

Bravo

Socialitest

CatSlave

Mah tale iz draggin.

Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

PeterL

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Wayne K

PeterL

Bravo

Socialitest

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

PeterL

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

PeterL

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

PeterL

absitinvidia

A bit of a wallflower

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

PeterL

boron

Health writer

PeterL