Military F Question

Straka · Aug 26, 2009

This might be more in-depth than a Sandbox question so I thought I'd throw it in here for my fellow F folks.

I've got a military F WIP written with an dragon flavor. The story follows the exploits confused teenage kid who has a secret power.

I've got the troops outfitted in dragons. For those draconis-knowledgeable folks, a five claws death dagon. For those who aren't, roughly 3 to 4 meter beasts with wings. Armed with a 20mm teeth.

What I'm trying to figure out is how best to deploy them. I've got them set up as tank platoons but they fight like a fighter squadron (lead + wingman, etc). Each time the enemy attacks, they are scrambled.

Is this the best set up for them? Or should I be treating them like planes(sent out into the field with missions such as take a location, protect a location, reconnoiter, saving helpless teenagers...)?

Open to suggestions.

On a more serious note: are there any military fantasy books?

kct webber · Aug 26, 2009

Sounds like a really good way to deploy air-assault infantry, really. Or in this case, I suppose it would be a sort of mixy-type thing called air-assault cavalry.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/90-4/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-90-2/appj.htm

http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte...aders_Guide/air-assault-operations-ch-2.shtml

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/tactics-101-038-air-assault.htm

That's just a few from a quick google search. There's a great deal more out there.

dgiharris · Aug 27, 2009

So, your deployment depends on a few things.

Capabilities: What are the capabilities of your dragons. Are they fire breathing? If so, what is the range of the fire? Do they shoot fire balls or more of a flame thrower? Can the shoot fire while flying?

Vulnerabilities: Are they susceptible to Arrows? Catapults? Spears? Are there any magical 'things' that can bring them down and what are the range/atributes of those magical things. How vulnerable are their wings? Are they vulnerable to fire from other dragons?

Armaments: How much protection do their scales provide? Can arrows pierce them? Do the dragons use their talons while fighting? Do the riders have crossbows? Do the riders hurl magical weapons? Same fire questions apply here.

in a nutshell, the distance they would remain to and from each other will be dependant on their range of their weaponry. It will also depend on the likely counter measures they will face. Accuracy also plays a factor in determine placement as does stamina.

Another key factor is Enemy deployment.

Off the top of my head, the best use for a dragon during a medieval battle setting would be to attack formations of infantry and to break the 'lines' right before that infantry was to engage with your infantry.

Other uses: Disrupt and negate a calvary charges, decimate an army in retreat, scout, disrupt and destroy supply lines, serve as a vantage point to direct forces, signaling, and covering retreating troops.

Vulnerabilities would be the archers, specifically the long bow archers since I would imagine the range of dragon fire to be maxed out around 30 yards (90 feet) which is well inside the range of the long bow and harpoon type war machines.

Other factors for deployment are enemy capabilities. Does the enemy have anything that can threaten the dragons in the air like giant hawks? Gryphons? Other Dragons?

Do the enemy 'air threats' have similar capabilities to the dragons? can they out fly the dragons?

Lastly, the dragons would be next to useless during a melee as they really wouldn't have the precision to fry the enemy without consuming your own forces in flame as well.

Hope this helps.

Mel...

STKlingaman · Aug 27, 2009

No idea what military 'F' means.
No idea at all.

Nivarion · Aug 27, 2009

One use that comes instantly to mind is killing fully armoured knights. Just pick them up and drop them. A lot easier than trying to kill them other ways.

AceTachyon · Aug 27, 2009

David Drake has a story about, IIRC, goblin bombers in All the Way to the Gallows.

And Bazil Broketail is about a dragon serving as a legionnaire.

I know other fantasy novels sometimes deal with military engagements but I can't think of any (off the top of my head) that are exclusively about a military unit (for example, a fantasy version of the StrikeFist series).

dgiharris · Aug 27, 2009

STKlingaman said:
No idea what military 'F' means.
No idea at all.

Across the pond, many use the abbreviation SFF to mean Science Fiction and Fantasy

those abbreviations are starting to sneak over here more and more...

in this case, the lone F probably means Fantasy

Mel...

Lhun · Aug 27, 2009

The really big question here is air superiority. Will these dragons be able to fly completely unchallenged. If there's only one side of a battle that can use these dragons, that will immensely change things.
The next important question is payload.
Assuming there's only one side with flyers, and the dragons have a useful payload, they've got their work cut out for them. Basically, they're bombers. Fly over massed enemy troops and drop unpleasant implements on their heads. That could be loads of iron bolts (similar to crossbow bolts), greek fire, basic explosives, magic of some kind or just simple rocks. No other use on a battlefield would come close to the ability to eliminate large amounts of enemy troops without fear of retaliation. Flying height and dragon armor would determine how vulnerable they are to archer fire (well, anti-air magic might also be possible) but hitting a flying target is extremely difficult. Arrows are very fast, but a flier would likely move at a significant fraction, making aiming much more difficult than aiming at soldiers on foot. Not to mention that you have to worry where your arrows land when you miss. Used en masse like on a battlefield, archers don't aim for individual targets anyway, they lay down cover fire.

Assuming the dragons are not the only fliers the first choice would be to divide them up into bombers and escorts. Or possibly all dragons would fly out, kill the other side's fliers and then come back to pick up said unpleasant implements to drop on the enemy ground troops.

Wether they're the only fliers or not, siege warfare would change drastically. You'd have to make sure that every castle is protected against attacks from the air. You'd need some kind of fire-proof (and rock-proof) roof and lots of archers, making sure the dragons don't drop infantry off on top of the defenders.

Assuming the dragons do not have significant payload (i'm not talking tons here. Dropping just a hundred bolts or so per run would be well worth it) then the dragons and riders become the main offensive element, not the payload.
In that case, the superior mobility of a flier would be the most significant advantage, enabling them to ignore any kind of fortified enemy line and attack anywhere. They'd probably be wasted in an actual battle, much better to use them to take out enemy supply lines, strike their leaders whenever possible and generally cause as much disruption as possible.

Cyia · Aug 27, 2009

There's also a matter of the dragons' temperament. Are they sentient or more like horses?

dclary · Aug 27, 2009

Lhun said:
The really big question here is air superiority. Will these dragons be able to fly completely unchallenged. If there's only one side of a battle that can use these dragons, that will immensely change things.
The next important question is payload.
Assuming there's only one side with flyers, and the dragons have a useful payload, they've got their work cut out for them. Basically, they're bombers. Fly over massed enemy troops and drop unpleasant implements on their heads. That could be loads of iron bolts (similar to crossbow bolts), greek fire, basic explosives, magic of some kind or just simple rocks. No other use on a battlefield would come close to the ability to eliminate large amounts of enemy troops without fear of retaliation. Flying height and dragon armor would determine how vulnerable they are to archer fire (well, anti-air magic might also be possible) but hitting a flying target is extremely difficult. Arrows are very fast, but a flier would likely move at a significant fraction, making aiming much more difficult than aiming at soldiers on foot. Not to mention that you have to worry where your arrows land when you miss. Used en masse like on a battlefield, archers don't aim for individual targets anyway, they lay down cover fire.

Assuming the dragons are not the only fliers the first choice would be to divide them up into bombers and escorts. Or possibly all dragons would fly out, kill the other side's fliers and then come back to pick up said unpleasant implements to drop on the enemy ground troops.

Wether they're the only fliers or not, siege warfare would change drastically. You'd have to make sure that every castle is protected against attacks from the air. You'd need some kind of fire-proof (and rock-proof) roof and lots of archers, making sure the dragons don't drop infantry off on top of the defenders.

Assuming the dragons do not have significant payload (i'm not talking tons here. Dropping just a hundred bolts or so per run would be well worth it) then the dragons and riders become the main offensive element, not the payload.
In that case, the superior mobility of a flier would be the most significant advantage, enabling them to ignore any kind of fortified enemy line and attack anywhere. They'd probably be wasted in an actual battle, much better to use them to take out enemy supply lines, strike their leaders whenever possible and generally cause as much disruption as possible.

Soldier #1: What? A dragon carrying bolts?
Arthur: It could grip them by the quiver!
Soldier #1: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five hundred pound dragon could not carry a thousand pounds of bolts.
Arthur: Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Dragonland is here?
Soldier #1: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a dragon needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
Arthur: Please!
Soldier #1: Am I right?
Arthur: I'm not interested!
Soldier #2: It could be carried by an African dragon!
Soldier #1: Oh, yeah, an African dragon maybe, but not a European dragon. That's my point.
Soldier #2: Oh, yeah, I agree with that.

Lhun · Aug 27, 2009

A 3-4 meter dragon, i'd say at least three tons, and a bolt would weigh in at around 100 grams if you design a really heavy one for aerial use. Maybe 200. That's a payload of 10-20kg, after rider and armor.

efkelley · Aug 28, 2009

It's hard to tell if the OP is dropping some heavy sarcasm on us, or if they're really interested in working out the uses of a dragon from a military standpoint. The post is a near word-for-word copy of Ace's original post on the Military SF Question thread.

To your other question on Military Fantasy, there aren't too many with a distinctly Military feel to them. Off the top of my head, though:

Grunts (decidedly tongue-in-cheek, and highly entertaining)
The Black Company (straightforward, bloody, and entertaining without being too heavy-handed)
In the Company of Ogres (found while linking the other two, so reader beware)

Straka · Aug 28, 2009

efkelley said:
It's hard to tell if the OP is dropping some heavy sarcasm on us, or if they're really interested in working out the uses of a dragon from a military standpoint. The post is a near word-for-word copy of Ace's original post on the Military SF Question thread.

After the success of Ace's thread I thought fantasy needed its fair share of military discussion. So yes there is a genuine curiosity on military fantasy.

Other military fantasy works I would also add:

Shadow of a Dark Queen by Raymond E Feist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_a_Dark_Queen

Orcs by Stan Nicolas http://www.amazon.com/dp/0316033707/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

Lhun · Aug 28, 2009

efkelley said:
It's hard to tell if the OP is dropping some heavy sarcasm on us, or if they're really interested in working out the uses of a dragon from a military standpoint. The post is a near word-for-word copy of Ace's original post on the Military SF Question thread.

Yah well, if there's one op who reads an answer and ten other people, i figure i wrote an answer to 90% for the lurkers anyway. Stupid questions aren't an excuse to give stupid answers.

Military F Question

Straka

Bored Fanatic

kct webber

Squirrel, Sekrit type, 1 ea.

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist

STKlingaman

Followed the Red Brick Road

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

AceTachyon

Odd person

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!

efkelley

ow

Straka

Bored Fanatic

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!