S Vs Z

Stargazer · Aug 25, 2009

Before I go ahead and type a rant cleverly disguised as a question, I just want to say that I have no ill feelings to America in any way whatsoever.

But... what is this obsession with Z? I've endured it in many books by American authors and suffered along since that is how American's write.

I've just read two books by a British author and am just starting a third, also British, and I'm still seeing the most ridiculous use of the letter Z.

Authorise is now Authorize, Realise is now Realize, Socialise is now Socialize. WHY?!

Why, why, why, why, oh why, are British authors adopting this ridiculous obsession with the Z? Does the English language not mean anything to anyone anymore? does it all have to be these bastardised (Not bastardized) modern foreign English variants?

US English, Australian English, Pigeon English, Illiterate English and then right at the bottom of the list, almost like an afterthought, English (UK).

I just find it so distracting when I'm trying to read with English in my mind and I'm getting all the American spellings filtering through.

And it begs the question, Do I really have to use Z all the time in my own works? Or can I get away with the 'proper' spelling in each instance? Are both considered acceptable or what?

Cheers,

Rob.

CaroGirl · Aug 25, 2009

Okay. Deep breath, dude. The English language isn't static and *gasp* NEVER has been. There has never been a moment at which the perfect, Plutonic-ideal set of English spelling and grammar has existed, and never will be. Get used to it.

The best advice I can give is to use consistent spelling conventions in your own work. Don't use authorize in one place and authorise in another. That way you won't look sloppy no matter where your prospective agent/editor is from. And relax about it.

scarletpeaches · Aug 25, 2009

Write according to the standards of the country in which you live.

That is all.

Ms Hollands · Aug 25, 2009

*runs for cover from the shizzle (or shissle?)*

Stargazer · Aug 25, 2009

Good point... I guess i should worry about the big things like mortgages and paying taxes and such, but that Z really eats at my soul... I can't explain why.

My mother-in-law has an irrational and pathological hatred of Carol Voderman, I think it might be a similar thing for me but I've substituted said maths wizard for a letter of the alphabet

I can see that languages change all the time, I thank all the powers that be that I don't have to write Shakespearean English, but I still had delusions that maybe I would be able to go a few decades without and radical changes.

and as for consistency, never fear, it'll be a cold day in hell when I start using Z's all the time.

CaroGirl · Aug 25, 2009

Not to worry. Americans have been using Z's in those very words you cited for decades. It's not a new thing, although you might have just discovered it. I'm Canadian and we use the Z's but we also use the "u"s the Americans leave out, like honour/honor, colour/color, valour/valor. I used to feel all rancorous about it but with age comes serenity about such things.

Jo · Aug 25, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Write according to the standards of the country in which you live.

That is all.

Or to the standards of the country you wish to submit/publish in. (You may need the advice/services of a grammarian native to that country to achieve this.) Keep in mind, your grammar may not be the only native quirk you'd have to alter or clarify for another country's readership to understand your work.

Duncan J Macdonald · Aug 25, 2009

Insert Monty Python Reference Here.

"Spell bolour with a "K"?

I work with some of the allied nations (Australian, Canada, New Zealand, and the UK) so I have to deal with alternate spellings (and spoken slang) all the time. One gets used to it, one does.

One also sets one's spellchecker to UK English.

Chase · Aug 25, 2009

Stargazer said:
And it begs the question, Do I really have to use Z all the time in my own works?

Rant hijack:

What really getz my goat are grown up writerz reducing "begz the question" to mean "prompted to azk" instead of itz more exaulted Britizh way of zaying "to evade the izzue."

Dawnstorm · Aug 25, 2009

Stargazer said:
Why, why, why, why, oh why, are British authors adopting this ridiculous obsession with the Z? Does the English language not mean anything to anyone anymore? does it all have to be these bastardised (Not bastardized) modern foreign English variants?

Hm, maybe because it's not a "bastardised modern foreign English variant", but a "classicist venerable English variant" that became unpopular in the 19th Century (maybe due to the American spelling reform at that time), but is still the preferred spelling of, say, the Oxford English Dictionary?

Basically, the -ize ending derives of Greek -izo, and was used as such in English, but got bastardised by French influence into -ise.

Ask Oxford

Personally, I still prefer the -ise version.

PeterL · Aug 25, 2009

You might want to write letters to major newspapers in the UK and to publishers about the misuses of the "z". Ranting about it here probably won't make any difference, but some politician might take up the cause in the hope that people will ignore some indiscretion or whatever. Be ready to suggest the punishment for using a 'z' when and 's' should be used. I think that the first offense would call for a fine; the second offence would call for a fine and a short time in prison; and the third offence would demand a much harsher punishment.

Mr Flibble · Aug 25, 2009

Jo said:
Or to the standards of the country you wish to submit/publish in. (You may need the advice/services of a grammarian native to that country to achieve this.) Keep in mind, your grammar may not be the only native quirk you'd have to alter or clarify for another country's readership to understand your work.

Depends

My stuff has the Brit spelling, though the publisher is in the US

Although apparently in the US you don't 'walk out of the door', you 'walk out the door' etc

Which is just weird

Chase · Aug 25, 2009

Changes

IdiotsRUs said:
Depends

My stuff has the Brit spelling, though the publisher is in the US

Although apparently in the US you don't 'walk out of the door', you 'walk out the door' etc

Which is just weird

Yep, just as you "go to hospital" north of the border (or across the pond), we "go to the hospital" south of the border (or this side of the pond).

In order for the two purchasers of your publications sold here in Oregon to understand them, I've had to go through and pencil in president's English for queen's English. It was so they wouldn't throw them out of the window.

kct webber · Aug 25, 2009

Chase said:
Yep, just as you "go to hospital" north of the border (or across the pond), we "go to the hospital" south of the border (or this side of the pond).

That's what I was thinking.

scarletpeaches · Aug 25, 2009

I don't walk out of the door. And I go into hospital.

Xelebes · Aug 25, 2009

Canadaian here and I break the z convention and use the s. Z is the hardest letter for me to type for some odd reason.

backslashbaby · Aug 25, 2009

zzzzzzzs are way more fun. Except when they're called zed.

I wonder how many people reading thought, 'maths'???

Seriously, though, I wish places wouldn't Americanize anything. I like differences

vroth · Aug 25, 2009

I heart zs. They make me feel...dangerous... :e2brows:

Mr Flibble · Aug 25, 2009

In order for the two purchasers of your publications sold here in Oregon to understand them, I've had to go through and pencil in president's English for queen's English. It was so they wouldn't throw them out of the window.

What, they can't cope with u's ?

Actually I did once have someone say they wouldn't crit a piece till I 'corrected' the spelling. *facepalm*

I don't walk out of the door. And I go into hospital.

Damn, Scots, just always gotta be different dontcha?

RJK · Aug 26, 2009

I had the same, but opposite reaction when I first started reading British authors. Each time I came to a word that should have ended in an "ize" and was written "ise" I stopped reading, said a mental "What the hell?" then continued.
I can see Stargazer's point. It is distracting.

Stargazer · Aug 26, 2009

RJK said:
I can see Stargazer's point. It is distracting.

Yay! A kindred spirit!

Dicentra P · Aug 26, 2009

I was born and raised in the US but I always use 'ise' until my spell checker yells at me and then change to 'ize.' Since I'm still in the US I have to go along. If your work is 'literary' in the US it has a chance of keeping the UK spellings, but not popular works.

Carmy · Aug 26, 2009

Like IdiotsRUs, a beta painstakingly 'corrected' every UK spelling in a chapter I sent her. Needless to say, I didn't send her more. If a beta doesn't "twig" which form of English is used, s/he can offer little of value.

Ize or ise? WordWeb sits in my sys tray and shows me UK and US spellings of words. Sometimes it gets confusing because I'm in Canada, and our English tends to be a mix of UK and US. On the bright side, Word offers me UK or US English settings, as well as English from other countries.

blacbird · Aug 26, 2009

Stargazer said:
Good point... I guess i should worry about the big things like mortgages and paying taxes and such, but that Z really eats at my soul... I can't explain why.

You're a Brit, right? The preferred British spelling uses -ise, much as it does suffixes like -our rather than -or in words Americans spell as color, flavor, and honor. There's a real historical reason, as I understand, for these differences: Lexicographer Noah Webster. Webster took it upon himself to produce a Dictionary of the American Language shortly after the American Revolution, and did so with the belief that it should be separated from British English with simplified and/or more phonetic spellings in certain common cases. Thus, -ize, -or in preference to -ise, -our, along with certain others. It stuck, and ain't about to change. And, truly, doesn't matter. Surely there are more important writing matters to get incensed about.

I just wish Brits could figure out that "gaol" doesn't spell "jail". Otherwise it looks like something adopted from Old Low Klingon.

caw

boron · Aug 27, 2009

Here you can find some quite thorough guides:

UK vs. US English

and on the 4th page there are links to:

Australian English

Canadian English

New Zeland English

and, of course South African English

including a reference link to yogurt.

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