Archive of the NEPAT

[Boob]

You always say it is not about the authors, it is about the company, Publish America. Yet most of your posts ARE about the very authors at P.A.


Harrharr...You people are like hawks waiting for the next juicy piece of meat. I rest my case.


Boob.

[zizban]

You people are like hawks waiting for the next juicy piece of meat. I rest my case.


Boob.

I had a roommate in college who described himself that way. I don't think he was talking about the same thing as you. :)

[Ed Williams]

Yes, I know. I do frequent this board you know. Did any one of you, for one moment, think that many of us are working from the inside out, instead of vice versa.Actually, some of us are aware of that, Boob, but have gone to great pains not to point it out so as not to hinder those of you who are working from within.You know, I get really tired of always being labelled by some of the people on this board as the stipid P.A. author who is deceived, who continues to post on the P.A. boards because I cannot come to terms with reality. An idiot, who has fallen into the clutches of an evil cult. Seriously folks, give me a break!I don't think anything has been said here in reference to someone who is "working things from the inside." In fact, until you said that, few knew. I don't think anyone here would disparage anyone who is attempting to help PA authors. In fact, I'm taking you at your word that you are doing just that, and I applaud you for doing so.The inuendos claiming that if we remain at P.A. -- even if it is to help other authors -- we must really be completely stipid. It`s VERY insulting actually, and I just wanted to let you all know, we are not stipid. We are like the ninja, working within the shadows, ready to pounce.And that's the first time anyone has publicly stated that. No one would ever say that someone who stays for the reason of helping PA authors is stipid. Far from it. Only thing is, we weren't going to point out that some of y'all were doing that because you'd asked that we not. You can't have it both ways.You always say it is not about the authors, it is about the company, Publish America. Yet most of your posts ARE about the very authors at P.A.No they're not, but you're not being fair. You asked that we not point out that there are PA authors working from within to help others, so we do that. Then you get mad that statements are made about PA authors who choose to stay, when obviously we wouldn't point out that some are there to help others because it would compromise you. You can't have it both ways.
I ain`t quite as stipid as ya think...harrharr!You express yourself well, so you obviously aren't stipid in the least.

[realitychuck]

That's another issue: PA brags about the one or two authors that may have sold 5000 copies. But 5000 copies for a mainstream publisher would be a spectacular flop. Even twice that is disappointing.

Any mainstream editor whose books consistently sold less than 5000 copies would be out of a job very quickly.

PA authors (and those who, in general, don't understand about publishing) think that the "bashers" are complaining because PA doesn't have books that sell in the millions. There are few books that do, but every mainstream publisher sells in the tens of thousands, even on their books by new authors. Small presses probably sell 1-2 thousand.

The issue isn't best sellerdom. It's the fact that PA books rarely sell over 100 copies.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Yes, I know. I do frequent this board you know. Did any one of you, for one moment, think that many of us are working from the inside out, instead of vice versa.

You know, I get really tired of always being labelled by some of the people on this board as the stipid P.A. author who is deceived, who continues to post on the P.A. boards because I cannot come to terms with reality. An idiot, who has fallen into the clutches of an evil cult. Seriously folks, give me a break!

The inuendos claiming that if we remain at P.A. -- even if it is to help other authors -- we must really be completely stipid. It`s VERY insulting actually, and I just wanted to let you all know, we are not stipid. We are like the ninja, working within the shadows, ready to pounce.

You always say it is not about the authors, it is about the company, Publish America. Yet most of your posts ARE about the very authors at P.A.

I ain`t quite as stipid as ya think...harrharr!



For the most part, Boob, we don't generally quote the Private Boards here. We quote the Public ones. If you will read the part of my post that you quoted, you will notice I was referring to the PA Private Boards, the ones that supposedly you need to have a password to be able to view....and therefore, to participate in.

Please do not confuse the Private Boards with what is generally quoted on this forum. Again, the quotes you generally read on this forum are from PA's Public Boards, not the Private ones.

Oh, and one more thing: I have yet to label either you or any other PA author as 'Stipid', an 'Idiot', or anything else insulting save maybe 'unprofessional' at particular times. My post was not intended as an insult to you or any other writer--regardless of their publisher. My post was intended to inform, and I had no intent for it other than that. I am sorry if you saw anything in my post that was offensive; nevertheless, I believe you were reading something into my post that was either not there or at the very least was not intended to be in the post.

[Boob]

No they're not, but you're not being fair. You ask that we not point out that there are PA authors working from within to help others, so we do that. Then you get mad that statements are made about PA authors who choose to stay, when obviously we wouldn't point out that some are there to help others because it would compromise you. You can't have it both ways.


Why single out authors at all? You know, I send authors to this site, and what do they see? They see authors on this board poking fun of them, making them look ignorant, like they are an idiot. Yes, it has happened! Do you know that some people think this site is the stipid author saviour club?

You people are making my job harder. All the authors are doing is asking legitimate questions about their publisher and policies on the P.A. boards. So why make fun of them? You know, authors on the P.A. boards do have feelings.

So you say many people on this board didn`t know what was going on. So then why didn`t you tell all the regular posters?

What do you think would happen if I convinced somebody to come here, they click onto this thread, and see that they are being mocked? Why do you encourage this type of behaviour on this board? I know if that happened to me, I would personally tell you all to get stuffed!

As I`ve said a million times, if your plight is against Publish America, the company, then leave the innocent authors out of it. Stop hovering around the boards looking for what you believe is the next "so called" stipid comment.

They aren`t going to believe a damn word you say, if in one breath you tell them you`re being truthful, and in the next you`re laughing at them.


Boob. :Lecture:

[postshy]

IF you are working on behalf of all scammed PA Authors from the inside, then my post was cetainly not meant to put you down in any way. I salute you! It is a dangerous job and if you get caught you will be "exterminated" as you know:). I was speaking about those still in a PAlcoholic haze who are finding it difficult to recognize the truth. I am very sympathetic towards them, but know we cannot help them until they are ready to help themselves.

To be honest - I am just not sure exactly whom you are preparing to "boobinate".

postshy/Roberta

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pitchers of silver.

[Ed Williams]

Why single out authors at all? You know, I send authors to this site, and what do they see? They see authors on this board poking fun of them, making them look ignorant, like they are an idiot. Yes, it has happened! Do you know that some people think this site is the stipid author saviour club?With the size of the audience this thread has, "some" people are going to think lots of things. And diatribes like this can only lengthen the divide. No one here has ever claimed perfection, Boob, and no one here has ever said that mistakes haven't been made. All in all, though, on our worst day this is a much better place than the PA boards on their best.
You people are making my job harder. All the authors are doing is asking legitimate questions about their publisher and policies on the P.A. boards. So why make fun of them? You know, authors on the P.A. boards do have feelings.Legitimate questions about PA and their policies get people banned over there, so the tough questions never get publicly fielded. They do here. The mere fact that you can express your feelings speaks volumes, I would dare point out what would happen should you so freely express yourself over on the PA boards.

So you say many people on this board didn`t know what was going on. So then why didn`t you tell all the regular posters?Because of this statement in the message we received - look familiar???

~~DO NOT KILL MY PLAN BY ANNOUNCING THIS PUBLICLY.

As I`ve said a million times, if your plight is against Publish America, the company, then leave the innocent authors out of it. Stop hovering around the boards looking for what you believe is the next "so called" stipid comment.Quotes from public message boards are quotes from public message boards. Are you advocating that nothing anyone says over there ever be questioned or challenged? It's not like we can go over there and provide an opposing viewpoint, a Stalinist messageboard system is in place, you know.
They aren`t going to believe a damn word you say, if in one breath you tell them your being truthful, and in the next your laughing at them.And you're helping solve that problem how?

Boob, I have a lot of respect for you, but expect to be challenged when you put forth the type assertions you have. Lots of people here have expended countless hours and lots of hard work helping PA authors when no one else would. It's easy for everyone to jump on the bandwagon now, as PA has been outed for what it is, and it's plainly obvious. And who outed them? A lot of people here who worked their butts off to see that the word got out. I'm proud of AW, this board, and my friends here, and believe it or not, I'm glad to be able to personally witness the biggest difference between these boards and PA's - the freedom to say what you think.

[Richard White]

For some reasons, Boob's latest posts sound just like CanadaJames's right before he disappeared.

Don't comment on PA authors
You're too hard on those authors
You're fight is with PA not the authors
You're scaring off everyone I send over here.

I don't see this site being "hard" on the PA authors, but when they post things about the publishing industry that are "outside the norm" and the fact that their publisher willingly abates their misconceptions, then they need to be pointed out somewhere.

Even if they don't see the answer, maybe someone else will, so when they get fed the same ol' tripe from PA, hopefully an alarm will be set off in their head.

Again, once someone signs with PA, there's not a lot that can be done (yet). The goal is to cut off the wheat before it hits the PA gristmill.

[Boob]

Sean,

I wasn`t speaking specifically about your post. I was generalising.
eg: Quote: "Labelled by some of the people."

[Boob]

Because of this statement in the message we received - look familiar???


I believe that was said. However, It didn`t mean the regulars here, privately, via e-mail.

Boob.

[Boob]

I'm glad to be able to personally witness the biggest difference between these boards and PA's - the freedom to say what you think.

Even when it includes public mockery of those you say you are fighting for? Sorry, I just don`t buy into that.


Boob. :idea:

[Boob]

Anyway, I know I probubly won`t change anybody`s opinion, but I`ve said my piece.

Night all,

Boob. :kiss:

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sean,

I wasn`t speaking specifically about your post. I was generalising.
eg: Quote: "Labelled by some of the people."


Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll try to be more understanding next time.


I have to admit, you kind of caught me off-guard with your original post on this subject. I hope you'll forgive me if I sounded a little bitter. The only people I really have a beef against here is PA and those who run it.

(Although I might point out--quickly if I may--that I personally, as a PA'er myself, have yet to directly receive any insulting comments from board regulars here. And I have been quoted at least once that I know of on this thread--early on--with the accompanying statement "Reality check in Aisle Three." I was the third entry in the post quoted. It doesn't bother me any more; it was posted a long time ago. But other than that, I don't remember any disrespect toward me personally, either as a writer or as a PA'er, from people on this forum.)

[DeePower]

Something is happening. Something. Have you noticed? When the posts here, start to become focused on a particular poster. On apololgies. On 'picking on PA authors'. That we are denigrating PA authors, and not the company. It has meant in the past, ... that PublishAmerica is worried.

Why would PublishAmerica now be worried?

Dee

[Jeff]

The ignore function has made my time at AW much more enjoyable.

-Jeff

[CJWilkes]

I have to agree with much of what Boob has said. I am not trying to get involved in any fights, but it really is intimidating and quite hard to come here and see that people have posted about me or something I've said. I think the first time I came on here to speak to anybody was in defense of myself and an explanation for what I had said on the PA boards that was missinterpretated here.

Boob really does have a valid concern and if fighting PA is your cause then you might want to look at who exactly is being targetted in your comments. This is for everyone - including myself... If it does not apply to you then ignore my comment, it really does not hurt me :)

BTW Boob, long time no chat :)

[Boob]

Something is happening. Something. Have you noticed? When the posts here, start to become focused on a particular poster. On apololgies.

Of course, it`s a huge conspiracy. Yeah, yeah, that`s it!

Ed, pour me a Icee. You want to talk about not being allowed to have an opinion? Do you see what this has come to? It`s a damn shame.

Yo CJ, Wazzup? :hi:

[SeanDSchaffer]

Something is happening. Something. Have you noticed? When the posts here, start to become focused on a particular poster. On apololgies. On 'picking on PA authors'. That we are denigrating PA authors, and not the company. It has meant in the past, ... that PublishAmerica is worried.

Why would PublishAmerica now be worried?

Dee


Who knows? Maybe they're worried for the same reason that made them send out the infamous 'Confidentiality and Non-Disparagement Agreement.'

I'm not sure, but I have a feeling PA might have a lot more to worry about right now than just its reputation.

:horse:

[MartyKay]

Note: To ensure that your book is being printed properly, we would prefer not to place large orders until you have received your free author

Can I choose which author I get?? I wouldn't want to end up with BJO...

(yeah I know, author COPIES...d :) )

[DreamWeaver]

The ignore function has made my time at AW much more enjoyable.Me, too. Thanks for the reminder!

Dreamweaver

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Anyway, I know I probubly won`t change anybody`s opinion, but I`ve said my piece.Oh, cue the violins and sing me a sad song.

One of these days I'm going to compile a list of Linguistic Markers Of Martyrdom Complexes. It'll contain such gems as "Not that anyone cares how I feel," and "Fine, I'll just leave and never post again" and "See, this only proves that you people can't handle dissent." We can have them printed up on 5 x 5 grids and play Martyr Bingo on our Sunday drives through the forums.

Yes, yes, I agree: It is wrong and self-defeating to pick up PA forum posts and use them to make fun of the authors themselves.

But, outside of Hizzoner da Shemp, that's not what generally happens. Barring our weaker, human moments, what actually happens is, people quote PA forum posts in order to illustrate the miseducation PA perpetrates on their victims. The goal isn't to make fun of the authors. It's to correct their misconceptions and point the finger at PA as the willful cause of those misconceptions.

It is inevitable that those authors who are still at the stage where their very identity and sense of self-worth is contingent upon believing the lies that PA fed them will interpret such illustrations as ridicule. That stage does pass, though. Meantime, their current situation in that sad stage is no good reason for us to shut our mouths on truths that may save others from ever entering that stage in the first place.

It's probably time for me to have a random thought again. More soon. Stay tuned. Meanwhile... all I need is "I am supported by the lurkers that are afraid to post for fear of your ridicule" to get a Bingo. No, wait, we just saw that one about a page ago. Bingo!

[Boob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
The ignore function has made my time at AW much more enjoyable.

Dreamweaver: Me, too. Thanks for the reminder!


Thanks. That`s real open minded of you and tollerant. Why not stick your fingers in your ears as well for added effect.

Boob.

[Howard Gross]

Yes, Dave, when I wrote to the BBB, I pointed out that I have used, and trusted, the Better Business Bureau on many occasions. However, if it is that easy for a Company to regain a "satisfactory" rating, then perhaps people should think twice about using their system.
postshy
The interesting truth about the BBB is that it's all about responding. If the company in question responds to all complaints timely, they will maintain a satisfactory rating regardless if the complaint was resolved satisfactorily or not. Although the underlying purpose is to help resolve the complaint, the BBB only requires you make an attempt to resolve. Their quality standard is a perfect example of "form over matter".

Cheers,
HG

[Medievalist]

So the PA Private Boards, so far as I can tell, are not all that private after all. If someone can come in and post without being a PA author....well....I think you pretty well get what I'm saying.

You might notice that PA tends to be six months to a year behind updating anything--and they're pretty clueless about IT in general.

[Damyeon]

Now, I didn't go through all 21,000+ posts, so if the topic or opinion has already been addressed, please direct me to the correct field.

I have been approached by PA (via emails and snail mail) in reguards to books of mine. If they (PA) are as bad as more than most say, can anyone, who has been published, please inform me on how to get in touch with a tried and true publisher so that I can offer them my books.

If anyone would like to read excerpts from my stories and offer me criticism, I would greatly appreciat it.

[Dawno]

Damyeon, welcome! There are a lot of good threads on this board about getting your work seen and others where you can share your writing for critique. Travel around the board a bit, you'll see what I mean.

A lot of good advice is in the Novels forum in the Learn Writing With Uncle Jim which has an index (it's not as current as I'd like but I'll catch up soon and most of what you're interested in has been indexed) and an "Undiluted" thread as well where just Jim's 'lessons' are captured.

And don't forget to introduce yourself over on the Newbies thread.

[Medievalist]

Hi Damyeon

Welcome to the assy . . . umm . . . Absolute Write. There are many good forums/boards here, and resources on the Absolute site itself, so spend a while looking around. I'd particularly suggest you look at this thread:

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710)

James D. Macdonald is a much published novelist and short story writer, and a fine teacher.

I'd also suggest you read

On the Getting of Agents (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html)

Teresa Nielsen Hayden is a much respected professional editor at Tor.

[Dawno]

GMTA Midievalist :)

[SeanDSchaffer]

First, welcome to AW. It's good to have you here.

Second, I'd like to say basically everything Medievalist and Dawno have said. The threads they've suggested are outstanding resources for aspiring writers such as ourselves.

One forum I would recommend in particular would be the Share Your Work forum, because there you can post--according to your particular genre--your work for critique. I myself have used it several times to enhance my own writing ability, and I can say it has become an invaluable resource to me.

Finally, I hope you enjoy the site.


:Sun:

[mreddin]

Quick Reminder, for you PA Authors paying a visit to this thread..


1) What was the retail price of your book and the page count.
2) What was the trade discount set for your title and how many
copies were bought [bookstores, amazon, b&n.com, etc]
3) What were you charged for author purchases and how many did you buy?
4) What price did your "Friends and family" list get set at and how many
units were bought? [usually from PA directly]
5) How long did the editing process take on your book?
6) What marketing was done by PA on your title
7) What marketing was done by you, the author?


All info will be kept anonymous so private message me if you wish. I have about 7 responses so far, really need some more to get a better statistical average.

Mike

[Diana Hignutt]

Do we sometimes make fun of PA authors here? Of course. If people make stipid statements in public forums then they hold themselves up to public scrutiny. I'm sorry, but some moron (yes, I called him a moron) breaking bookstore windows and bragging about the good publicity thereby generated needs to be mocked, needs to have his words exposed as utter folly.

There is a difference between that person and the newbie author whose publishers tells them to do things that they know cannot work. It is with great sorrow I read those comments from those whose dreams are not yet squashed. Do we still talk about this doomed author's plans? Yes. Our words are not directed towards that author, but towards the morally bankrupt people who encourage that behavior in order to line their own pockets. Should we watch in silence as scores of people each week march off like lemings, following the fruitless advice their publisher offers them? Should we hold our tongues as author after author makes the same mistakes, sometimes to the tune of thousands of dollars in debt from books, or PR services that can not help? We might as well let PA do whatever they like without comment if we must hold our tongues for fear of offending the victims of PA's scam. Yes, some authors will come here and see their words or plans dissected. Yes, they may be hurt or embarrassed. It was never us who put them in this position, it was the lies PublishAmerica told them.

So, in my opinion, we are right to expose the comments from public boards, both from the moronic and the deceived. And yet there is another form of PA poster. This type is the most heinous. Those who know the real deal with PA and yet act as though everything is great in the land of Poz. Those that act as though PA were a commercial publisher no different than Random House or St. Martin's Press. These are the worst. Their words must be dragged into the light here and exposed.

One of PA's primary tools for drawing in more victims is, in fact, their author message board. There can be no debate about this. If we do not expose the information provided on those boards by the moronic, the innocent newbie, or the morally corrupt booster, then what the f- are we doing here? If PA insists on using authors to do their scamming for them, then we have no choice but to comment on their posts.

That's the way I see it.

diana

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Here at A.W. it's : "give us the tired, the weary, the broke." Over at Putrid America, "give us your book,your dreams,your credit card". Hello?

[Aconite]

1) Criticism of something one has written or said is not criticism of oneself, though many people react as if it is. You are not your book. You are not your posts. Stay clear about that and your feelings won't get hurt nearly as often as otherwise.

2) "I have made inflammatory comments about how bad You People are that I have not supported with evidence and if you debate or disagree with me then you're just hypocrites"--wow, we've never heard that line of reasoning before. *plonk*

3) As others have pointed out, this board is usually given the opportunity to focus on a certain person or unresolvable issue just about the time something interesting breaks at PA. I wonder what would happen if we stayed focused on PA and ignored the drama?

[James D. Macdonald]

I have been approached by PA (via emails and snail mail) in reguards to books of mine.
This is fascinating. Do you mean they've approached you out of the blue? Was there any prior contact initiated by you?

Have you saved the letters and emails?

...can anyone, who has been published, please inform me on how to get in touch with a tried and true publisher so that I can offer them my books.

Go to a bookstore. Find a book (or books) similar to yours. Look on the copyright page to find the publisher's address. Write to that address to ask for the guidelines (include an SASE). Follow those guidelines to the letter. Meanwhile, write another, better, book.

[J.S. Blue]

I think I got boobinated!:faint:

[Christine N.]

This whole thing is ridiculous. And by that I don't mean the people who posted are ridiculous, just the subject. Boob, you obviously have feelings about that. I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt (Zaz, where are you?).

But if you want to be a writer, you better learn to take the good with the bad. Bad reviews happen to good writers. Bad reviews happen to all writers. Like someone said upstream, it's not you, it's your words. Posts get picked apart everywhere, not just here. I never feel like a poster is stipid (unless its BJO), but grossly misinformed.

The posters who swallow Infohelmet's tripe and ask for ketchup are the ones I weep for. If you are playing at being one of those, and none of us KNOWS about it, don't fault us for it.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Ed Williams]

....that a majority of the people who complain about treatment of authors are not people who've been on the thread very long. They haven't had to deal with a situation like one where a PA author has spent thousands on their own book, and then sells maybe thirty or so copies. That has happened many more times than once, you know, and guess where they come to seek advice for how to get out of their plight? If someone had told them the hard truth earlier in the game maybe their wallets and dreams wouldn't both be depleted.

Here's something else to consider - if you're going to do something public like a book, and in addition post information on a public bulletin board, do you honestly expect no reaction? Some of the comments on the PA boards are appalling in either the advice given or in the lack of knowledge of publishing being disseminated. Something needs to be said about it, because PA is not going to, and someone out there who reads the truth might actually be dissuaded from signing with PA if they see the truth. That's why I do it, to help those who can still be helped, as for those who have already signed contracts, well, about all we can do is offer whatever comfort we can and hope that they'll enlighten others. There is nothing more rewarding than having a writer tell you that they avoided PA due to some information that you've given them, the feeling you get inside is like no other.

Publishing is not a pretty business. Reviewers are not going to go light on you because you're a good person who means well. The mutual glad handing on the PA messageboards is not the reality. Much worse things have happened to PA authors who ventured out into the true literary world than what's mentioned in these bulletin board postings. You seriously need to think closely about your desire to accept what comes from public scrutiny, because you are going to receive it if you stick your toe in the creek.

One more thing needs to be said - for those of you who pop in here to lecture the rest of us on how to act, well, when you hang around long enough to deal with some of the real problems or issues involved here then I'll take you seriously. For now, y'all remind me of the kid I knew back in the third grade who wouldn't get out on the playground and play, he'd simply stand on the sidelines and caution the rest of us about how dirty we were getting. Not exactly the kind of guy you want to go to war with, and folks, we're in a war with the worst literary scammer in the world. Either help, or at least don't get in the way...

[triceretops]

Don't fee bad Joe. I got a hefty shot of mother's milk in my face too.

(Sorry, filling in for Zaz)

Tri

[postshy]

Folks, we are in a war - individuals become casualties. Do we set out to target those individuals? NO! In order to take PA down, it is necessary to point out what they are doing to AUTHORS of whom you are one. It is not about you per se and to look at it that way is a pretty selfish attitude. Sure you may be happy with what PA provided, but then you are the exception, not the norm.

I willingly joined this battle. I do not take comments made personally (I am a PA Author and I do not always like the inference that we are all "stipid" and write unpublishable books) but, let's face it - it's the truth in many cases. In order to put a stop to PAs mistreatment of authors in general, I may have to take a few hits - that's fine. Do not cloud the issue with personal feelings. We are here to get PA and we are making a difference. I am not being cruel when I say, either join the fray, or get out of the way.

Just my take and I stand by it. There are a lot of people going out of their way to help us - let's not seem ungrateful. Thank you.

postshy/Roberta

[Damyeon]

I do still have the letter and email. I was the one who intiated contact by way of the PA website on a google search.
I would like to say thank you for your advise about how to get published. Everything I've read about the subject in books pretty much says to find an agent. I have not read that many books (2) so I am sure others hopefully do not say the same. If you could suggest a book, I would really appreciate it. If you wouldn't mind me asking one thing. What is the SASE?

[Banned-Aide]

Boob,
You are not the only one that is here and there. There are many that wish to remain anonymous here so we can still post and watch over there. We try to warn the newbies to let them know what they are in for. I have been quoted here on things I've said on the PA board. Personally, I laugh my butt off. I think the comments here are funny, accurate, and they keep hammering the one constant point: PA SUCKS. Not the authors, the company.

The bottom line is that it is working. Believe me, I've been around for a long time. The days of the posts reading, PA is the most wonderful publisher in the world are gone. It's a start.

Try not to take it to heart. If we could post what we want on the PA board to warn the newbies, we would. This is the only way to point out the things that are wrong. When we see newbies with stars in their eyes, it's a heartbreaking thing.

BA

[Aconite]

Damyeon, the SASE is a Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope.

My suggestion for learning how to get published is not to read a book, but to talk to authors who got published by good publishers, and with good publishers themselves. Books can be out of date, or written by people who don't actually have any experience in legitimate publishing, or any number of other unhelpful things. So can any source of information, really, so your first order of business is to learn how to evaluate your sources.

Don't worry about getting an agent. If you've written a book that can get legitimately published, you can get an agent. Whether or not you need an agent to get published is open to debate, but having a good agent is a good thing, so go ahead and look for one.

Since your questions are now more about how to get published than PA, may I suggest you move your discussion to the Writing Novels board? You'll get a lot of help there. Spend some time browsing--there's lots of information.

[Aconite]

I have been quoted here on things I've said on the PA board.

What further proof do you need that your disguise is good? Take it as the compliment it is. *g*

[Boob]

Here's something else to consider - if you're going to do something public like a book, and in addition post information on a public bulletin board, do you honestly expect no reaction?

Then make no self proclaimations that AW`s quest is about the company, Publish America, and not the authors. It IS about the authors.

People often become what they chase or fear. They talk about denial and then excuse and defend their own actions...cracks me up. This board does bash PA authors, and some are ugly about it too.

Boob.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

I think I got boobinated!:faint:
I want boobinated! I like boobs. Big ones. Little ones. Medium ones. Perky ones. Saggy ones (as long as they don't sag to the floor, don't want to have to get dirty to reach them). I like people that are boobs. They are cool.

Only boob I don't like is PA. They are bad boobs. They are dirty, hairy, and they lie about being real. Yeah, like those are real boobs buddy. Did you buy those with our royalties? Plus, they have sour milk. Leaves bad taste in mouth. Hair tickles my throat.

Boob, let me point out something. We know PA reads this board and if we don't talk about some of the...weird things we read over there then PA might think that the author that posted the weird thing and we didn't reply must be oever here in disguise and then they will set off and watch said author like a hawk...a chicken hawk. Said authors posts will be scrutinized, dissected, and deleted for no apparent reason. So the people here who reply to authors comments from the PAMB are in a way helping them by keeping them off of PA's Klinger...oh, sorry, wrong character, I mean radar.

Then again, I may be totally wrong. I wasn't breastfed. All this boob talk is making me....where is my wife?

[Ed Williams]

Then make no self proclaimations that AW`s quest is about the company, Publish America, and not the authors. It IS about the authors.

People often become what they chase or fear. They talk about denial and then excuse and defend their own actions...cracks me up. This board does bash PA authors, and some are ugly about it too.

Boob...and say that, more power to you. Everyone has a right to their opinions. One day, it may hit you that at least you had the freedom here to state them. If you want to see authors get truly bashed, run back over to PA and tell them the truth on one of their boards. Or just ask them an honest question about something like their no-returns policy. You obviously know what the result to that would be, or else you wouldn't be working "behind the scenes," or posting here under an alias. Whatever the case, best of luck to you.

[Boob]

..and say that, more power to you. Everyone has a right to their opinions. One day, it may hit you that at least you had the freedom here to state them.

Ed, you know I luv ya, but it seems others at AW may not agree with you.

Postshy: I am not being cruel when I say, either join the fray, or get out of the way.

Am I going to get an e-mail telling me not to take that tone with you people?
Just wondering.

Boob.

[Sparhawk]

Then make no self proclaimations that AW`s quest is about the company, Publish America, and not the authors. It IS about the authors.

People often become what they chase or fear. They talk about denial and then excuse and defend their own actions...cracks me up. This board does bash PA authors, and some are ugly about it too.

Boob.

Whoa !! Time out here! You are painting with an extremely broad brush. I was a PA Cheerleader for awhile until I had the misfortune of actually trying to market my book and sell it to bookstores. The reality of the situation was harsh, and the fact that I had to admit that I got suckered was even harsher. Jenna, Uncle Jim, Ed3 and the rest of the players here may take some small shots at some of the more outrageous newbie posts, but no individual author has been singled out and called "Stupid" (with the possible exception of SHEMP). I admit I was stupid for not seeing through the scam, but I'm over it now. I was welcomed here and made a part of the AW family. The mission here is to expose PA the corporate entity and save a few fledgling writers in the process.

Boob, if you choose to work inside the system I applaud you, but you will never be as effective on those boards (PA) as you will be here. You're not censored here and are free to speak you rmind. Can you honestly say that about PA. PA will never willingly change, it's not in their interest to do so. Their business model is predatory in nature and requires fresh meat every month to perpetrate the scam. You can privately E-Mail newbie authors as you have claimed to do, but there are some authors there that are stubbornly blind to the facts and simply refuse to admit reality. Then there are others who simply spew disinformation in order to feed some sick ego fixation and a warped need to feel important.

This forum exists to inform every potential writer about the scam being perpetrated over at PA; not just PA author newbies, but potential writers who have not yet signed with PA. To broadly accuse this forum of simply author bashing is a serious disservice to this board and those who run the place. THis forum is the largest source of information about PA and contains the most vocal and active AUTHORS who are giving of their time and effort to do something about the scam.

If some newbie post is put up and in lights it's usually as an example of the scam in process or someone asking a legitimate question that will never be responded to properly by DISINFOCENTER.

Lets' not waste time bickering with each other. PA writers have always been welcome here. I'm considered a PA writer and I feel welcome.

Well, back to making a living.

[Gravity]

May I? One of the problems about ongoing threads like this one (IMHO) is that sometimes they generate more heat than light.

That said, I'm about to state something that some here may take the wrong way, but it needs to be said regardless. Some, not all, but some people go with PA for the very reason that they know their work won't be vetted by anyone, and thus subjected to scrutiny by the industry.

Read their posts on the PA board; they aren't hard to spot. The worst would include Shemp, Nighty Girl, and a few others.

For them, PA is a womb.

Nice, safe, warm, free from intrusion from the nasty outside world...it's life to them, and it's all they want.

Others there, however, want more.

So in the ongoing struggle to shed light on PA's practices, will some authors be hurt? Yeah, 'fraid so. It's 1939, and we're in the Battle of Britain, folks. Time to slap on some rhino hide. To stretch a metaphor until it screams for mercy, Hitler is massing his troops along the Atlantic wall, the Luftwaffe is bombing London daily, and we're handing rifles to the villagers, preparing to take it to the streets. Is this a pretty war? No.

But it's a necessary one.

John

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Boob,only at Parasite America are we "toned". Here in the land of freedom,we are allowed to speak openly. Say the "magic" words Absolute Write over there,and joined the banned over here. I rest my case.

[Ed Williams]

Ed, you know I luv ya, but it seems others at AW may not agree with you. Boob....at all. At least here at AW, they don't have to agree with me...

[Boob]

Sparhawk: To broadly accuse this forum of simply author bashing is a serious disservice to this board and those who run the place.

Don`t put words in my mouth now. I didn`t say this forum was simply author bashing. I agree that there is also some great information for authors, or obviously, I would not be here or send others here. I said that it happens, and I want those here to take a look at what they might be posting. Hell, read the threads above. Look at some of the reactions I have gotten.

A few people here have been devistated by what was said about them on the P.A. boards. They were hurt, felt lynched. When the person eventually came here they could barely speak to them, and expected an apology. Well just remember, the pendulum swings both ways. Words can either be used for constructive thought, or they can be used to cut, and cut deep.

Boob.

[Boob]

...at all. At least here at AW, they don't have to agree with me...


That`s true. And never once did I say that I agree with what is going on over there, obviously.

[BeeBomb]

Mornin', everyone! NO, this does not reflect a reply to a quote but believe me Kevin's adjustment and feel for the mammary glands just about smacked me. You go Kevie, baby but stay off the ground!

I just dropped in to ask you to wish me luck at our writer's convention this week-end. Several of my stories have been entered in contests and money is involved...love those green backs when my work is appreciated.

I hope to see many agents and publishers (legitimate ones) at the convention because the book I just completed is a good one.

Yup! I have faith in my ability and intend to make it happen. Hide and watch!

BeeBomb

[Sparhawk]

People often become what they chase or fear. They talk about denial and then excuse and defend their own actions...cracks me up. This board does bash PA authors, and some are ugly about it too.

Boob.

AND I QUOTE.. This is what I was responding to. If I misread your meaning I apologize.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

BeeBomb...You have my best wishes as always! You're the best!


love and hugs to you,

Tracy

[Boob]

KEVIN: I want boobinated! I like boobs. Consider yourself Boobinated! :guns: :guns: :TheWave:

Boob.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

Consider yourself Boobinated! :guns: :guns: :TheWave:

Boob.
Thanks Boob. It feels great. Nothing like having a big pair of boobs smack you.....oh, sorry. Wrong forum. To be serious though, I see the people here talking about PA posts as a two way street. Yeah some will be offended and not come here, but others will come here to try and set the record straight. It is these latter ones that we can then try and tell them the truth. If we let PA authors know that what they are trying to do won't work then we might just save them money and a lot of frustration. That will also show that PA knows that it won't work but yet they let the authors go on and do it.

Thanks for boobinating me though. What size are they?

Beebomb, girl, you know I love ya. There are a few of those mammary gland that I would get dirty for and a few I wouldn't. Wanna guess where you are?

Good luck at the convention. I hope it works out for you.

[Sheryl Nantus]

A few people here have been devistated by what was said about them on the P.A. boards. They were hurt, felt lynched. When the person eventually came here they could barely speak to them, and expected an apology. Well just remember, the pendulum swings both ways. Words can either be used for constructive thought, or they can be used to cut, and cut deep.

Boob.

so true... why, in fact I even contacted PA when someone on the PA boards put up comments about me, encouraging authors in the area to come to my home and confront me. It was a nice long thread, about two pages involving plenty of threats, misquotes and personal insults.

of course, PA refused to take them down. In fact, they claimed that old "freedom of speech" thang that you Americans are so proud of.

I'm not the only one who's been slagged on the PA boards - and unable to respond. There's been much more damage done and no action taken by PA to remove those posts.

and with a name like "Boob" I take you about as seriously as I do PublishAmerica.

'nuff said.

[DaveKuzminski]

Damn it, Boob, come out and say my name if you're upset with the way I ask questions point blank over at Author's Forum!


But the truth is that there are a lot of thin-skinned authors who have yet to understand that the warmth they feel in their toes from dipping those in the PA stream isn't how the water normally feels. They won't understand until the lava reaches them that they're about to get burnt.

Publishing stream waters normally run cold because they come from the mountains, and not volcanoes, and start off small. You're lucky only if you go in far enough to be swept down by an initial wave of readers to the warm gulf waters where there are so many that you simply can't see them all in one glance like you can with a thin stream. A lot of those PA writers aren't going to like dipping their toes into cold water, but it's just about the only way to reach the warm gulf unless you walk.

In the meantime, there are some individuals giving out bad information about the source of the PA warmth, so it's up to those who care to counter what they're saying with the truth. Trouble is, there's really no nice way to do that.

[postshy]

I rest my case. I have no intention of rising to the bait. You know the answer to the question as to whether I will now use: "Don't take that tone with me". I have had several of those letters myself and I pay them as much attention as I will pay you. You have had your say, I have had mine. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

'Nuff said.

By the way, Renee, I am not Robbie - sorry I took so long to answer.

postshy/Roberta

[Jaws]

Then make no self proclaimations that AW`s quest is about the company, Publish America, and not the authors. It IS about the authors.Speak for yourself. Not for me. I don't care about PA authors as authors. I do care when they become apologists or fellow-travellers (loaded connotations intended). But only in that role… and only because by doing so they facilitate a less-than-honest set of business practices.

They're welcome to their theories—solid or crackpot; they're welcome to their ficiton—well-written or illiterate; they're welcome to their political proclivities—well-considered or loony (not just loony "left," either). They're not welcome to facilitating deceptive business practices, because that's not a question of "viewpoint discrimination" or the merits of their literary works, but the merits (or lack thereof) of their "publisher." Boob, if you're incapable of seeing this distinction, you're not going to survive the world of publishing in any event.

As an aside, in case you're not willing to go all the way back into the archives: I'm not a PA refugee. I represent authors, including (but not limited to) PA refugees and would-be refugees. That means that with the (possible) exception of the Writer Beware people, I've probably got more documentation of what's going on in terms of business practices than anyone else. But for client confidentiality, I would not be so circumspect in my descriptions of PA's business practices. There's a five-letter word that is a better description of my inferences as to what is going on that I don't use because, unlike some people, I have a fine appreciation for the distinction between what I know and understand and what I can prove—and that's not intended as a slam, but as an explanation for why my rhetoric differs from much of what you see. Of course, PA thinks I'm a "fringe lawyer," too, since I'm the attorney quoted in Paula Span's article (and believe me, she was restrained in what she wrote); but PA's reliance on an unspecified low-level staffer's opinion that my C&D letter was "incomprehensible" when that letter merely quoted the applicable legal standards (and followed the restraints imposed by PA's own contract) should tell you more than you really want to know.

[robeiae]

*sigh*

Rather than taking time to address this subject again, I'm just gonna quote myself from only one month ago! (hope that's okay)

...I'm gonna toss my 3 cents in:

Any reasonably intelligent person who has bothered to read some of this thread would know that the gist of the thread is an attack on PA the company, not on PA the authors (and the fact that many of them actually consider themselves to be some sort of special group is a consequence of the company's nefarious practices).

I recognize (as do the great majority of people at AW) that many posters here were once deceived by that company and consequently possess much empathy for current members of the PA community, even when such members are being obnoxious and disruptive when they post here. I am still impressed with the way former PA authors welcome such posters; it is indicitive of high moral character in my opinion.

But (you knew this was coming)...there is bound to be some criticism of PA authors as long as said authors are regurgitating the company lines they are being fed...PA authors, as a group, are not special...as a group, they don't represent people who should have been published...as a group, they don't deserve to be treated like literary giants... as a group, they are not overflowing with skills and knowledge on writing and publishing. Sometimes, pointing this out can be offensive, but it is justified, in my opinion, insofar as it helps potential PA clients recognize that PA doesn't care if you are any good at your craft...doesn't care if you can put two sentences togther...doesn't care if your writing is intelligible, interesting, or entertaining. All they care about is $$$$, can they get it from you, your family, and your friends if they print up some bound copies of your manuscript.

So...if a comment here is offensive to some current PA authors over there, I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it, since I believe that the cause being persued here is a worthwhile one. It's great when some see the light and jump ship, but I think it's even better when many more recognize that they should never even get on board.

Everyone, please feel free to point out all my mistakes in this post and in all others; make a joke out of them if you can...I won't be offended, but maybe I'll learn something so someday, I can be profficient enough to be proud of my craft.

Rob

P.S. Have a nice day! :)
Oh, and the postscript still applies to everyone!

Rob :)

[Diana Hignutt]

First, I have to commend my fellow AW members for being so much more willing to dance with our newish friend here than I am. For me. the game is getting old. Time to hit the ignore function.

Lies must be countered with truths. PA is lying to its authors.

Just remember...the only thing necessary for the triumpth of evil is for good people to do nothing.

Later,

diana

[PVish]

Don't chastize those who fail to admire the emperor's new clothes. It ain't their fault he's buck-nekkid. Be thankful somebody's got the guts to tell him so.

[Jeff]

I do still have the letter and email. I was the one who intiated contact by way of the PA website on a google search.
I would like to say thank you for your advise about how to get published. Everything I've read about the subject in books pretty much says to find an agent. I have not read that many books (2) so I am sure others hopefully do not say the same. If you could suggest a book, I would really appreciate it. If you wouldn't mind me asking one thing. What is the SASE?

SASE = Stamped Self Addressed Envelope.

One thing to consider is that writing your book is only half the battle - heck, probably less than half - on the road to being a published author. You now are at the point where you have to "go to school" and learn about publishing and the business itself. One place to start is here at AW. Go to the top of the page here and click on the underlined blue link that says Absolute Write Water Cooler. That link will take you to the main board listing here, and from there you will find a wealth of interesting and informative boards (this one is only one of them) with discussions ranging from writing the best novel you can to finding an agent to who is the best publisher for your work.

More than likely, as you use these forums, you will make a friend or two as well. Sometimes, that is the best kind of education to have.

As you have found, there are also books published that will help educate you on the realities of publishing - try the library to go to your local bookstore and look for the "writing" section. Sit there are peruse a few more. When you have questions, find the right forum here, and ask.

Good luck to you.

-Jeff

[arainsb123]

I've been out of this thread for a while, so I'm FLOORED by its length! Sorry about the off-topic post!

Let's see if we can get to a thousand pages.

[Jeff]

The problem is that the ignore function does not work as well when people quote those ignored. I am in the workshop as we speak to add a new feature to the Nice-O-Matic ™ which I hope will take care of the problem. I plan to market this update and call it the Ignore-A-***this section deleted by Nice-O-Matic ™ ***.

================================================== ===============

This post has been sanitized by the Nice-O-Matic ™ system. Any comments that might be construed as not being politically correct or which might in some manner bruise the tender and important feelings of any reader in any manner for any reason anywhere are unintentional and the author cannot be held responsible for said bruising. This is a feature, not a bug. No authors were maimed, mutilated, killed or made to wear a red nightie in public for the production of this post. Please read responsibly. Don't blame me, you voted for him. Do not read and drive. Your milage may vary. Read the prospectus before investing, past gain is not an indicator of future earnings. If you've read this far don't blame me, that's what editors are for. Thanks, Ken.

[cwgranny]

For those sidetracked here...let me point out that the PA board has long been perfectly comfortable trashing PA authors. Nothing here can compete with how quick the PA board has been to bash PA authors. Even authors not banned. Even authors PA chose to name as ambassadors, or some such. I am sure some people believed Tracy would never be attacked on the PA board. She was a PA poster girl, but then she took one step out of line and was swarmed and roasted -- ON THE PA BOARD.

If the folks of this board tried. If they worked at it, they couldn't compare with the things the PA board has said about their authors. What did you not like here? The suggestion that Captain Dingy might be mentally unbalanced -- right PA already said that about one of their own authors when she did something they didn't like. Maybe you didn't like anyone snickering at a suggestion of sexual naughtiness -- right PA had a free for all with one of their authors on that subject, suggesting he was not just naughty, but maybe naughty with young boys.

So, boo hoo, if this board has harassed the cigarette buying man who shall never die and his few scraggly followers...even having a whole thread with nothing but snarky comments about the big dummy couldn't TOUCH the things said on the PA board. In fact, I cannot come up with a single slur that I haven't seen directed at PA author from the PA board. Any you could come up with -- I can think of a time PA or a minion tossed it at one of their authors.

You simply cannot fight this only from the hidden shadows of the private email. Sure, you'll ruin the day of some of the folks on their honeymoon with PA and maybe...MAYBE...save them a buck or two if you catch them soon enough -- but the folks that really need reaching are those who haven't signed yet. Those who might say...whoooaaaaa....PA is the laughingstock of the whole publishing world? I don't want to go there. That means holding up the posts where people parrot the PA line and saying -- Yo, this is what ya call a lie...see what it looks like...try not to repeat it next time.

If someone shoots themself, you'll have a whole lot more trouble saving them then you will if you can talk them out of picking up the gun in the first place. I hope by the time this thread is done, no newbie author in America would be willing to pick up the nasty, slimy PA gun.

gran
who promises not to stay
so no one need send me "be glad you didn't get banned" mail.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

As I had predicted - individuals on the PublishAmerica Public Message Board are being Baptized By Fire regarding having their books shelved at brick & mortar booksellers.

There are also Posts regarding dissatisfaction with distribution channels and low sales. It is Spring and like television programming - PublishAmerica authors are repeating the same old tired mantra: "High price of books, consignment, and discounts."

However, I detect that this crop of Newbies are bucking the trend of not questioning PublishAmerica's business practices, and posting their concerns. It is only a matter of time before they are banned. PublishAmerica - Get A Clue, Already!

A business can not sustain & perpetuate a scam and expect to abscond with individual’s hopes and dreams for an infinite period of time.

I will make another prediction. One day, a deep pocketed individual who has plenty of time on their hands and believes in principles, will expose PublishAmerica in the Press and in a Maryland Court of Law.

In addition, this individual will charter a plane that will deliver numerous unhappy and discontented authors to a public hearing, and air their complaints. This action will make National News - and a jury of twelve will decide PublishAmerica's fate.

That day is coming. The question is, can PublishAmerica and its dream team of shysters construct a believable defense which can overcome the preponderance of damning evidence against the company? Hmm. Can you say Billable Hours?

Argile Stox

[Ed Williams]

...would indicate to me that a lot of people must be reading this thread. In fact, if I were a betting man (and I am), I'd say one of our most rapt audiences is right up there in Fredrick, Maryland - hey Willem, Miranda, and Larry!

Now, back to business. Probably one of the most poignant questions ever has been posed on the PA boards, it reads as follows:

I'm curious that if some self-published authors have had successful books, why can't PA authors? Certainly self-published authors have had to start from total scratch. And some of them have had mega best-sellers.
We can't blame PA for our lack of success. What are we as authors, and as marketers, overlooking? We need to find the key. Any and all suggestions are welcome.You need to totally point the blame at PA for your lack of success. What you're overlooking is the following:

1. Your books are, on average, priced an average of $5 or better above what the market bears for similiar books. Ask your publisher why. Self-published authors typically enjoy much more reasonable pricing.

2. A bookstore can't take a chance on your books because they are non-returnable. A self-published author, on the other hand, can offer to take returns if they so choose.

3. Any bookstore ordering your book has to prepay the costs upfront, including shipping. Most self-published authors can easily offer a better deal.

4. Your publisher, as an entity, is known as the most notorious scam outfit in publishing. Self-publishers don't have to labor under that burden.

In the end, you signed up with what you assumed was a publisher, the reality is that they're a vanity POD shill outfit that counts on you to hawk your own overpriced books to friends and relatives. That's how they survive, and that's why they don't worry about bookstores, distributors, etc. That's also why you can work until you're blue in the face and you won't see any measurable result. The deck is stacked against you right from the start, and, based on what I've seen, the harder you try the more in the hole you go. No wonder some walk away from writing altogether after a PA experience...

[Boob]

First, I have to commend my fellow AW members for being so much more willing to dance with our newish friend here than I am. For me. the game is getting old. Time to hit the ignore function.


There`s no need to ban people here, because if somebody has a differing opinion to you, you can just hit the ignore button right? That`s really nice, and especially welcoming. It gives me the warm fuzzies all over. And this site allows people to have their own views you say? Balderdash!

The MESSAGE that you and a few others have given me at this site is: If you do not conform to the opinions of the moral majority, we will ignore you.

Thank you very much. Oh, and this behaviour here is different from the treatment at the P.A. boards how?

Boob. :Hammer:

[allenparker]

I read this Neverending thread almost everyday. I find it interesting and sometimes informative.

What I also have discovered is that many people in this forum are hurt and angry at PA. Sometimes, unintentionally, they may attack PA and cause collateral damage to some of the authors signed with PA.

What I can offer to this situation is that I began posting here several weeks ago. I used my real name. I announced that I was an author with PA. I offered no apologies for this. People on this forum know who I am. PA knows that I post on this forum, as well.


What I received was a host of good wishes from the people on this forum. I hope that Kevin, Ed, James Macdonald, Jenna will not mind my mentioning their names. ( I apologize for not being able to list the entire group. It would be too long).I have been treated with respect.

I have wondered about some of the questions that Dave has asked, not only here, but on P and E. It usually takes a few days or weeks and the reasons become clear.

I have never felt that my writing ability has been challenged. I think that I may be more concerned with my talent than the people here.

There have been times when I felt that some people on this thread may have stepped over the line a little. We are human beings. We all have come short of perfection. If we are to co-exist, we need to learn to let these smaller things pass.

On the other side, I have found this thread to be a diversion or a small vacation. I find other forums to be more helpful in my writing journey. I am especially enjoying the Humor Forum.

It was Ed who invited me to check out AW. I found it to be more than just a collection of threads aimed at stopping PA. It was in this discovery that I found a real jewel.

Now, if someone would be so kind as to help me down from this High and Mighty Throne, I'll become the average naked guy from the south.

Just a naked thought from the Palatial futon... Allen

[saraht]

Granny, you said it so much better than I could ever have said.

I haven't posted here in a while but I read this board almost everyday, and let me say this then I'll go back to reading only.

Boob, get a life and I don't mean a PA life because there is no life with PA only heart ache and tears.

All you other fine folks, ignore Boob, this person hasn't a clue what its all about.

Another person from Georgia

[Boob]

Saraht: All you other fine folks, ignore Boob, this person hasn't a clue what its all about.
So you`re going to tell other people what to think now too? I am not the enemy here.

Boob.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Mornin', everyone! NO, this does not reflect a reply to a quote but believe me Kevin's adjustment and feel for the mammary glands just about smacked me. You go Kevie, baby but stay off the ground!

I just dropped in to ask you to wish me luck at our writer's convention this week-end. Several of my stories have been entered in contests and money is involved...love those green backs when my work is appreciated.

I hope to see many agents and publishers (legitimate ones) at the convention because the book I just completed is a good one.

Yup! I have faith in my ability and intend to make it happen. Hide and watch!

BeeBomb


You go, BeeBomb! Have fun.

:box:

[AnneMarble]

Here is more proof that even if you have a great book that readers love, and even if you have a good sales ranking for a PA author, PA won't help you all that much. This is proof that you'd be better off finding a large commercial publisher, or if that doesn't work, researching the small presses in your field.

I am associated with the All About Romance (http://www.likesbooks.com) web site. On two different boards at AAR, two different posters praised a PA book (Fire in the Ice). To be honest, because of prior experience, my first thought was "Is this the author posting?" (Even authors published by trade publishers have pulled that stunt!) I'm sure other posters thought the same. But then, as I read on, it became clear that both of the posters had read about it on the Romantic Times board or other boards, read it, and liked it. It's also getting reviews from readers who are clearly not just the authors' friends and family. It looks like the kind of book a lot of romance readers are looking for. So word is getting around. The book is doing well for a PA book. I guess that's like saying "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Because the sad truth is that despite the great word of mouth, not that many people are going to buy this book. :( Sure, some people are buying this book, despite the $19.95 price tag for a 200-page trade paperback. And they're being forced to wait and wait and wait... But not everybody wants to order through Amazon. A lot of readers still refuse to do that, or simply can't buy stuff that way. And people are not going to wander into most bookstores and find it there.

Another issue romance writers must keep in mind is that a large (and growing) number of romance fans are already fed up with trade paperbacks to begin with. If you want some fun, start a thread about trade paperbacks (and hardbacks) on a romance reader message board. And even fans who like trade paperbacks are going to stay far far away from one that is priced that highly. A lot of romance readers hate trade paperbacks, even by established authors, even when they're priced in between ten and fifteen dollars. They have gotten sick of paying $12.95 for a novella or short anthology from Brava (an imprint of a major trade publisher). They are not going to buy this even more expensive book from a disreputable printer.

FWIW this book currently has an Amazon sales ranking of #68,365 in Books -- pretty good for a PA book. (Maybe because it was paired with a hot Shannon McKenna trade paperback.) For comparison, some of the current best-selling trade paperbacks in romance have rankings of #130, #303, #456 (for a reprint of a couple of old series romances), and #1200 (for a trade paperback by Red Sage, a small but reputable publisher of erotic romances).

On the plus side, this author has books available through another publisher. So let's hope she is successful with that publisher!

[Sparhawk]

So you`re going to tell other people what to think now too? I am not the enemy here.

Boob.

Agreed, you are not the enemy. Let us agree that we have a differing viewpoint on particular issues and move on from there. This isn't the first time this topic has aired itself with similar results and hard feelings. Boob, your voice is as welcome here as anybody's.

Just because we don't agree is no need for anyone to behave poorly or for anyone's feelings to be slighted. As i said earlier, great minds do not always think alike

BTW.. Ed, I saw my first Hamdog today. A Lt. from my program office made two of 'em last night and brought one in for lunch this afternoon. He's a southern gentleman and an all around great guy. I feel bad for his office mate cuz there has got to be some serious stomach repurcussions after eating one of those.. I think it was the fried egg sitting atop the mass of chili and onions that did put me over the top. I don't know if it's the same as you've had, but here's what this consisited of;

1. 16 inch sub roll.
2. Two foot long hotdogs wrapped in giant home made burger patties.
3. Burger/dog combination grilled and basted in rendered butter.
4. Meat and bean hot chili topping (smothered)
5. Fried onions and green peppers
6. Topped with one egg over easy.

Is this the same as you eat in Georgia ??

[CaoPaux]

There`s no need to ban people here, because if somebody has a differing opinion to you, you can just hit the ignore button right? No, we ignore those who become rude and whiny. Unless you can cite specific instances to support your allegation we're picking on undeserving individuals, please get back on topic. Which, in case you’ve missed it, is how to keep others from making the same mistake you did.

[Boob]

CAO: No, we ignore those who become rude and whiny. Unless you can cite specific instances to support your allegation we're picking on undeserving individuals, please get back on topic. Which, in case you’ve missed it, is how to keep others from making the same mistake you did.


I love you too Cao. :kiss:

Sparhawk: Agreed, you are not the enemy. Let us agree that we have a differing viewpoint on particular issues and move on from there. This isn't the first time this topic has aired itself with similar results and hard feelings. Boob, your voice is as welcome here as anybody's.


Thanks Sparhawk, that was nice of you to say.

Boob. :banana:

[SeanDSchaffer]

This 'ignore' feature works pretty well.


Now hopefully, I can focus on the real subject of this thread....PublishAmerica and what it does to writers.


I'll be seeing most of you around the boards. Have a wonderful June 1st, everyone.


:)

[Jean Marie]

in the ointment is what I'd call whats his name. First of all; I'd have to question why someone would pick Boob as a username?? It's slang for stupid. On the other hand, maybe this person is blaming themselves for having made a life altering mistake by signing with PA. And as a result, they're lashing out at everyone, including those who are attempting to help them. All I'm hearing is a tremendous amount of anger and it should be aimed at PA. Have your aim realigned, your focus is off.
I'm taking my dog for a walk now, because both of us deserve ithttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Hi Sparhawkhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonhi.gif

[CaoPaux]

I love you too Cao. :kiss:*teehee* http://deephousepage.com/smilies/curtain.gif

[Boob]

Sean: This 'ignore' feature works pretty well.


Thanks Sean, and a big smoochie to you too. :kiss:

Boob. :popcorn: <--The ignored one.

[Boob]

:idea:

[M. Story]

Thanks Jean Marie. You know, I think you should check your e-mail, because you have a message there. I think you are going to start feeling very badly about speaking to me that way. It is amazing the way somebody will speak to you, when they do not realise who you are.

Boob.

Jean Marie may already know very well who you are, Dear Boob. I, myself have a clue, too. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/pimp.gif You're about to give yourself away...so play nice, now...ya hear... http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Boob]

:flag: I surrender. Please don`t lynch me. I look terrible in tar and feathers.

[CJWilkes]

I could not sit back any longer... I just had to jump in and share my 2 cents. I must say that AW is a very informative site in more ways than one. I am not a person to be swayed one way or another easily. Much of my feelings come from what I have experienced myself or researched. It is nice to be able to see both sides of the coin. Having said that I would like to say that I find this site to be much less of a PA bashing, site in some respects, than the corner bar. Now mind you this is just my opinion.

I like that at this site I don't have to read the "shemp, BJO, or neverending thread if I don't want to. I can find many resources and not even speak of PA if I do not like or like. I must admit that I visit many chat lines including PA boards, Corner Bar, and AW. All of these have something to offer and all of them have things I do not like. If I do not post then I have children or books to care for and write. The point is that none of the places mentioned are perfect, yet friends can be made at all three, along with experiences shared. It is sad when a person is singled out and made to look insignificant or dumb, for lack of a better word to use. I do agree that we should choose our words and thoughts carefully when discussing a specific author (person with feelings), and stop to thing of what the purpose of our posts truly are.

Experiences can suck royally -> But then turn and try to make some lemonade with those lemons :) Boob does have a point in that it is how it is said who it is directed at. This very issue is what made it difficult for me to justify coming to AW. People are not perfect and we often say dumb things that were not meant to be quoted directly all of the time. That alone makes a person intimidated. But I must say that someone taking my words and poking fun was the last straw that drew me to AW so I could retaliate.

I have learned much here and have gained many good friends here. I hope to continue, and hope you can see that Boob just has a different way of expressing his opinions, so don't be too hasty in judging him. From what I hear, he is quite soft... or is that his companion :ROFL:

[Ed Williams]

...so why not let's get back to the purpose at hand? As we sit here going back and forth, there are writers out there considering PA, and we need to be giving them lots of reasons why they shouldn't...

[CJWilkes]

...so why not let's get back to the purpose at hand? As we sit here going back and forth, there are writers out there considering PA, and we need to be giving them lots of reasons why they shouldn't...

Amen...

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Amen and Amen to that , CJ.

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi. Yep, we've been here before, and all I'll say is this:

No one here is purposely making fun of PA authors. If we quote something from the boards to respond to it, we're not doing it because we want to embarrass anyone. We're doing it to try to educate people. When someone says something crazy about how publishing works, or suggests a "wonderful" new way to promote their books, or encourages others to buy their own books to place them in stores on consignment, or... well, if I tried to list all the misconceptions it would take a few hundred pages... we respond here because it's the only place we can respond.

We're mostly jumping out of our shoes with the desire to take those new authors under our wing and help them understand how publishing is really supposed to work. It's not meant to humiliate. We were all new at one point. If I posted to a guitar forum with my great techniques on guitar-playing, and someone quoted me elsewhere and said, "Ack! That's not how you play bar chords! This is how you play bar chords..." maybe I'd feel stung for a second, but I'd also realize that I'm a total amateur and maybe there are others who can teach me something so I don't continue making mistakes and teaching my mistakes to others.

I'm not out to hurt anyone. If any PA authors have felt embarrassed that we've quoted them here, I hope they'll take a minute to consider our intentions and what we're accomplishing.

[mdin]

Local author publishes book story here (http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpID=659&NewsID=636124&CategoryID=1840&show=localnews&om=1). It contains this interesting quote:

Parault isn't holding out for a big pot of gold at the end of her late life literary rainbow. "Drinkers of the Wind" was published by a Frederick company, PublishAmerica. Parault said that even though she didn't have to pay for its publication, she did have to buy her own copies. She ordered only 200 and said she doesn't plan to order more.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Local author publishes book story here (http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpID=659&NewsID=636124&CategoryID=1840&show=localnews&om=1). It contains this interesting quote:

think that pretty well says it all.

at least she's smarter than the average bear.

:)

[Aconite]

To return to topic, anyone want to start a betting pool on what Victoria might report she and Ann have been up to?

[SeanDSchaffer]

Does anybody notice that the PAMB's (Public ones) have one less forum? I had always noticed it, but to this moment I do not know which one is not there.

In any case, I wonder why PA would take out one of their forums for their new Public board?

(All the forums were quite popular within the old boards, so this comes as a bit of a shock to me.)


:Shrug:

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

It's that time again... time for Another Random Thought Of Possible Interest To PA Authors!

Today's totally hypothetical question...

Why does PA's web site look so much like a Recruitment Site For Writers, rather than like a bookstore?

Why, Totally Hypothetical PA Author, I'm glad you asked! There's a very, very simple answer to that question: PA's web site looks like a recruitment site because that's exactly what it is! PA's business model relies on recruiting new authors all the time--and not on selling books to the general public.

If you've noticed that PA's web site is geared towards recruitment, then you've laid your finger on a solid piece of evidence proving that PA lies when it implies that it functions like a regular, advance-paying, royalty-paying, book-selling publisher. Do you see any mainstream, commercial publishers recruiting authors? No! They're selling books! It takes a bit of searching, generally, to find their submission guidelines.

PA's main hype is (still) "Jamie Farr published with us; so should you!" or "We pay our authors!" These are tactics geared towards attracting new authors. They aren't tactics that lead people to buy books, though. Think about it: When was the last time you bought a book on the strength of "Random House pays its authors," or, "They published famous Bill Clinton's memoirs, so everything they sell must be good!"

No, really, think about it. Why do you buy books, O Hypothetical PA Author? What causes you to buy a book by someone you've never heard of?

It's not that they're published by the same publisher who published Jamie Farr. You know that's no guarantee that you'll like the book.

It's not because you know they paid the author. That, too, is no guarantee you'll like the book. What's more, it's rather a given. You assume that when you buy a book in the bookstore, the author will get paid his or her percentage of that sale.

Why do you buy a book by an unknown author? Maybe because your friends said you'd like it. Maybe because you flipped through the first few pages and became intrigued. (This is also how editors at real publishing houses decide to buy books from new authors. They read, and get intrigued. Editors function a lot like readers that way.)

Can those things happen with a PA book? No. PA books are not physically in bookstores for you to flip through. Your friends probably haven't heard about the book... unless it's your book, and you told them.

Look, do this. Humor me, O Hypothetical PA Author, and do this one little thing. Go to the web sites of Tor, Random House, St. Martin's Press, Viking--heck, any other commercial publishing house you can think of. Do that for any publisher whom you insert into the sentence, "Hey, PA is just as legitimate as _________!" Go look at those web sites. Compare them to PA's web site.

PA's web site recruits authors. Those other publishing house's web sites, they recruit buyers of books. Which would you rather your publisher do?

And that's not even getting into the broken links you'll find if you actually try to use PA's web site to buy books...

This has been Another Random Thought of Possible Interest To PA Authors. Keep it tuned to this very channel for more Random Thoughts, to be issued whenever they occur to my addled little brain.

[Susan Gable]

It's that time again... time for Another Random Thought Of Possible Interest To PA Authors!

Today's totally hypothetical question...

Why does PA's web site look so much like a Recruitment Site For Writers, rather than like a bookstore?

This has been Another Random Thought of Possible Interest To PA Authors. Keep it tuned to this very channel for more Random Thoughts, to be issued whenever they occur to my addled little brain.

I just love this series. I hope it continues. Although, maybe someday, PA will either cease to exist or straighten up their act (yes, ever the optimist, I am) and this series can be retired. Until then, keep up the good work, Nicole!

Susan G.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Aw, shucks. *blush*

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

The one that's missing is the "Original Author Message Board", which is still available from the link at the bottom "View Old Public Message Board".

Ol' Girl

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Sean,

They retired the original board. I think that's the one that missing.

Tracy

[Ed Williams]

....You have to schedule further programming and let us know, I can already tell that this is gonna be a lot better than CNN....

P.S. You still have the best overall name in the history of the world!

P.S.S. Tracy, is Argile really misbehaving a lot these days? Reason I ask is that he's seemed sort of subdued, you haven't had to give him a country asswhuppin' or anything here lately, have you?

P.S.S.S. Greg, great seeing you back. Re a hamdog, my friend, you're close, but a true hamdog has the following ingredients:

Hoagie roll
Foot long dog
Hamburger pattie wrapped around foot long dog
Mustard
Ketchup
Chili
Bacon
Onions
Cheese
...and topped off with a fried egg.

It is the breakfast, lunch, and dinner of champions, my friend...

[SeanDSchaffer]

The one that's missing is the "Original Author Message Board", which is still available from the link at the bottom "View Old Public Message Board".

Ol' Girl


Thanks for pointing that out to me, Ol' Girl. Honestly, I couldn't figure out which board was gone. I'm glad I know now.:)

The truth be known, I never knew what in the world PA meant by 'Original Author Message Board.' Unless that board was at one time the only board they had or perhaps it was for authors who'd been with PA since the beginning.
:Shrug:



Sean,

They retired the original board. I think that's the one that missing.

Tracy


I'd like to thank you as well, Tracy, for confirming what Ol' Fashioned Girl said. I highly appreciate it.

:)

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm curious that if some self-published authors have had successful books, why can't PA authors?
Boy, take a day off and come back 100 messages later...

Anyway, the answer to this PA's author's question ...

How do you define 'success' with a self-published book?

Answer: a mainstream publisher picks it up, pays a healthy advance, and takes it national.

With a normal self-publisher, this isn't a problem. The rights are in his pocket and he can sell 'em to that mainstream publisher any time.

With the PA book there's that seven year contract. Sorry about that.

[Dawno]

Uncle Jim, is the same thing true of vanity presses, that you own all the rights?

[Passionate N.Y. Lady]

Wow! Me thinks thou does protest too much! Why would anyone want to attack Boob for speaking their mind if there isn’t truth in what they are saying? I know this is a private message board; owned and operated by a select few, who have the right to run their board anyway they see fit, and for whatever purpose, but to sit there and deny this in NOT a board, or at least a post to bash PA, is just wrong. This is a post to trash PA, annihilate it, if possible, and, though, maybe not intentionally, indirectly insult the authors who have books with them. There are many here who have come together to do PA in. I, personally, could care less. I signed on the dotted line, I’ll live with it, tough sh**, I’ll move on. Though I am not a lawyer, PA’s contract is ironclad. They have the legal loopholes in place, the law on their side, and they have the funds; made off their authors, to back them up in a court of law. Others in the past have tried to do PA in, and they are still on the merry go round of trying to get out from under. Even various media have tried taking on PA, but to no avail, as the number of authors submitting manuscripts to them has risen sharply. And, where is PA during all this? They still thriving and doing what they have always done, publishing books, good and bad. Having said that, I truly wish those of you taking on this endeavor; to bring PA to their knees, much luck.

CJ Wilkes, I know you. I like you and I admire your writing, but you mentioned The Corner Bar. Well, let me make something perfectly clear. The Corner Bar was not created to bash PA. It was solely created to assist, not insult or destroy the hopes and dreams of authors who are disappointed by PA and tied to their name for years to come. It was designed as a meeting place for them to openly express their concerns, get support, and put their creative heads and their hearts together to try to overcome all the negativity that surrounds them as PA authors because of posts such as this one, whose negative web sites flood the internet anytime someone puts in the PublishAmerica name. For those stuck in the middle, where do they go? To the PA boards for support? Nope, because those who are willing to address their concerns; honestly, are most likely to have their posts deleted and get banned. So, they come to AW seeking help. Do they get it? Yes and no, as many come away more confused. You know what happens to them? They shut down, go away from all of it, and deal with their shame and pain in solitude. The Corner Bar allows them to come in, anonymously, and share their feelings with other authors who can understand what they are going through. Authors who are teeter-tottering on the fence of indecision in their decision to sigh with PA. Unlike this particular AW post, The Corner Bar at least attempts to show the pros and cons of PA. If you haven’t been there in awhile, go and look again. There are support groups, forums to come up with ideas on how to get around the bad publicity, if that is possible, writing exercises, and forums where you just can unwind with friends.

Look, who knows what is going to happen to PA. In the meantime, what is the point of sitting around and wallowing in our own self pity for having made a mistake, for those who think that way? What the people here are trying to do, may take years and years, and for those on the sidelines, it’s time to move on. The folks at the Corner Bar are trying to make the best of a bad situation, that is all, nothing more or nothing less. There is no ulterior motive to bring PA down, or for that matter, elevate to something it is not.

Jena, if this post makes it, thank you. I fully appreciate you allowing me to speak up. I know it is not easy for you to play nurse maid to those of us who come here from PA to vent and express our thoughts on their policies. You have a wonderful site, full of useful information for up and coming authors, and I salute you for your efforts and your graciousness.

[James D. Macdonald]

... well, if I tried to list all the misconceptions it would take a few hundred pages...

We've tried to list all the misconceptions and it has taken a few hundred pages.

For Boob (and others): If what I've said has hurt you, I'm sorry. Please let me know in what way and in which post I offended, so I can do better next time.

I'm not about hurting PA authors. My goal is offering my point of view so others, who haven't signed the PA contract, can make their decisions based on all the facts.

[Diana Hignutt]

There`s no need to ban people here, because if somebody has a differing opinion to you, you can just hit the ignore button right? That`s really nice, and especially welcoming. It gives me the warm fuzzies all over. And this site allows people to have their own views you say? Balderdash!

The MESSAGE that you and a few others have given me at this site is: If you do not conform to the opinions of the moral majority, we will ignore you.

Thank you very much. Oh, and this behaviour here is different from the treatment at the P.A. boards how? Boob. :Hammer:

Boob, my apologies. If it makes you feel any better, I couldn't do the ignore function thing, for the very reasons you put forth. Hey, I ain't perfect, and I'll be the first to admit that. I will listen to whatever you have to say. I may not agree with it all, but I will listen.

The real Moral Majority would be quite unhappy to know that you have included me in their ranks (LOL, sorry inside joke).

diana

[James D. Macdonald]

Even various media have tried taking on PA, but to no avail, as the number of authors submitting manuscripts to them has risen sharply.

But do we know if this is actually true, PNYL? We only have Larry's word on it, and we all know what his word is worth.

[DaveKuzminski]

And if others don't conform to the opinions of the minority?



Sorry, but something here just isn't meshing together. It can't be both ways unless both views agree to be somewhat tolerant of the other.

[DreamWeaver]

Whether or not you need an agent to get published is open to debate, but having a good agent is a good thing, so go ahead and look for one.But remember, Damyeon, agents work on commission--you do NOT pay them upfront. If an agent asks you to pay them yourself, instead of from the advance you get when you sign a contract with the publisher, run away! There are a lot of agent scams out there, as well as publishing scams. If in doubt, asking here is a really good idea.

Best of luck!
Kris

[DreamWeaver]

As I see it, the difference between ignoring someone and banning them is, if I put someone on ignore, that person can still post whatever they want on the board, and others can read it. A banned person cannot post at all, and therefore no one on the board can read messages from them. It's a pretty big difference.

In the few months I've been here, I've seen one person banned (and I think that might have been just from one thread, and not from the whole board--someone correct me if I'm wrong). It took a lot of rude and troll-like behavior for that person to get banned. PA seems to ban their posters wholesale, often for asking perfectly intelligent and well-thought-out, but awkward (for PA) questions.

If PA just ignored those posters, instead of banning them, they would still be read by all the other posters. Their questions and concerns would get aired; other authors could learn from what the PA-ignored authors have to say. I would be overjoyed if PA instituted an Ignore function instead of banning people. But, it would never work for them--they have too much to hide.

Kris

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Great galloping Gods in alphabetical order, people. What are we up to, now? Equating "ignoring" with "banning"? Tch. This isn't that hard, y'know.

Ignoring = Refusing to listen to someone.

Banning = Refusing to let someone speak.

The ideal of free speech does not imply obliged listening, anymore than the right to write implies the right to get published on someone else's dime.

(In other words, Dreamweaver is right. Y'all oughtter listen.)

And while we're at it, the set of all things possibly offensive about speech contains more than just the one item "truth." It also contains "arrogance," "overblown ego," "whiny reaction to simple disagreement," "tactlessness," etc. etc. etc. The fact that people vehemently disagree with (or "attack," if you insist) a given person is certainly not in itself proof that what the person is saying is true. Otherwise, we'd have to concede that our disagreement with PA somehow proved that PA was right. And wouldn't that be silly!

[akaa1a]

Critical Information
You have been banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information.

And WHY...you may ask? (Too bad...I'll tell you anyway!)
Because I answered a question in a truthful way to a new author who wanted information.

SO, I ask YOU...:Soapbox:
1. Am I to continue the PA sham and downright LIE to authors even when I know the truth?

2. Am I to turn a blind eye and act as if everyone at PA is a happy camper?

3. Am I to take consistent, damning evidence from multiple forums, news outlets, authors I know personally, coupled with my own personal experiences and embrace the company stance that
"everyone is wrong except PA"?

I THINK NOT...AND WILL NOT!

So to the PA author whose post I responded to..
I can sleep well tonight because I told you the truth and chose NOT to blow sunshine up your arse.

I hope you can return the favor someday to another PA author when an honest answer is requested!

:Cheers: Cheers everyone!

[Renee]

There`s no need to ban people here, because if somebody has a differing opinion to you, you can just hit the ignore button right? That`s really nice, and especially welcoming. It gives me the warm fuzzies all over. And this site allows people to have their own views you say? Balderdash!

The MESSAGE that you and a few others have given me at this site is: If you do not conform to the opinions of the moral majority, we will ignore you.

Thank you very much. Oh, and this behaviour here is different from the treatment at the P.A. boards how?

Boob. :Hammer:

Now Boob, (I know who ya are I do believe and hi ya) this site does give each individual the right to say any damn thing they want. Or else you wouldn't be posting here, if it's that bad, right? You do have freedom of speech here. BUT, so do other people, unlike PA's boards. So you can state your opinion all day long, but that doesn't mean you are going to get anyone to convert to your views. Believe me - I've tried! hahahaaaaaaaa

There are tons of differences, huge differences between AW & PA. You know this or you wouldn't be wasting your time here and you wouldn't be sending people over here. Anyone who has read this thread for very long knows there is way more good here than bad...there's no denying it...

Anywhere you go there's going to be people disagreeing with something said or done. Just like in the real world.. So I can't see why this is such an issue. You are entitled to say anything you want. Like Ed said try it at PA and see what it gets ya. I can tell you from experience - a big, fat banning..

[astonwest]

I never hit the ignore button...
but damn, I love the scroll wheel on my mouse...

[DeePower]

Tomorrow I head off for that big apple in the metropolis. Gotham city, with canyons of concrete and batman in the wings, or under his wings, or winging his way. I forget. The city that never sleeps (oh wait, that's Las Vegas). Okay I could go on and on with, what I personally would believe are these great, pithy (ever wonder where that word comes from?) wonderful and deep reaching, thought provoking analogies of New York City, demonstrating the depths of my creative soul… and ....and … my thesaurus. Yeah whatever....



Truth be told I am honored to be giving a speech at the awards presentation of the Foreword Magazine Book Awards at the Book Expo America convention. Diana Hignutt is one of the finalists, Goddess of the Moon should have no problem winning. (GO, DIANA, GO, DIANA, GO).



I have a bit of free time and will be staying in downtown Manhattan. So if any member of AW would like to meet for a drink, let me know. It would be fun getting together.



PS I ain't stupid. All the PA trolls out there, don't even think about it.

Dee

[MartyKay]

As I see it, the difference between ignoring someone and banning them is, if I put someone on ignore, that person can still post whatever they want on the board, and others can read it. A banned person cannot post at all, and therefore no one on the board can read messages from them. It's a pretty big difference.

In the few months I've been here, I've seen one person banned (and I think that might have been just from one thread, and not from the whole board--someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Kris

I've seen a few banned, and afaik banning is across all the boards.

Gina was banned for engaging in troll like behaviour, there were a few others banned such as JoshuaDinnermann who decided to make troll posts and PM people with threats for posting on the JDDMedia thread. Probably been a few others as well.

I don't set ignore on anyone.

When I quote from the PA boards (if) often I've dropped the posters name from the quote. That doesn't mean I haven't "attacked" anyone there. I've made a number of derogatory comments regarding HB "Shemp/BJO" Marcus and will continue to do so. Certainty Guy I've mentioned, although I don't call him by name -- if someone makes a statement in the field of science it becomes open season on their theories. That is how science works -- publication and the scrutiny and criticism of your "peers". If your theory doesn't hold up, then it err.. needs work. If your theory doesn't hold up, it doesn't mean that science is wrong, and that "they laughed at Einstein!" (which, by the way, they didn't. His first papers were published and treated with respect (and surprise, coming from an almost unknown)). You can't treat science as an area where "everyone's entitled to their own opinion", it takes discipline and knowledge... argh.. I went off on a rant. In any case CG also gives publicity advice that others here have shown to be.. less than spectacular.

Anyway, PA sucks. :)

Boob -- if I post anything critical of PA authors, well tough. MY opinion is we learn through criticism, and the lesson to be learned is to ignore people like me!

[priceless1]

Tomorrow I head off for...New York City, demonstrating the depths of my creative soul… and ....and … my thesaurus. Yeah whatever....



Truth be told I am honored to be giving a speech at the awards presentation of the Foreword Magazine Book Awards at the Book Expo America convention. Diana Hignutt is one of the finalists, Goddess of the Moon should have no problem winning. (GO, DIANA, GO, DIANA, GO).
Dee


Dee, you know I'm dying a thousand deaths not being in NY with everyone. Please do give Fred a call. He and our marketing director are there schmoozing. This is such an honor to be a small part of Diana's success - she's already a huge winner in our eyes. Have a great time, everyone. <sniff>

And you have a successful speech!

[James D. Macdonald]

I notice that Sally Stuart is still recommending PublishAmerica (http://www.stuartmarket.com/BookPublishersP.htm).

I wonder if she's aware of what's now known about PA, and whether her listing them is an oversight.

[JennaGlatzer]

Dee, I'll be there all day on Friday, and my "home base" is the Nomad Press booth (2721) if you want to come by. I'm meeting up with Diana, too. :)

PNYLady: I may have my arguments crossed here. ;) I don't think anyone was denying that we are anti-PA. The vast majority here do indeed want PA to straighten up and tell the truth or go out of business, and we have strong... er... feelings about the three people who run the company and the dope who faked his own death, as well as anyone who knows the score and continues to drag other writers down by attacking anyone with a legitimate question or concern.

On the rare occasion that someone here picks on a PA author just to be mean, they typically get smacked around by our regulars here. I feel like the other stuff-- the quoting and responses-- is not done to hurt, but to help... though I do understand that it could feel embarrassing. I'm not sure what else we can do to make it more acceptable... we want to correct those misconceptions, so how do we do that without ever mentioning the posts where the misconceptions are broadcast?

I wholly support the Corner Bar idea. I visited once when it was first opened, but decided it was none of my business, so I haven't been back. I do agree that there's a need for a middle ground. Some had suggested that I set one up here, but it would never have worked on a board that has an obvious anti-PA stance, so I'm glad a PA-er took it upon herself to create a haven like that.

[ResearchGuy]

...How do you define 'success' with a self-published book?

Answer: a mainstream publisher picks it up, pays a healthy advance, and takes it national....
Not necessarily. Some have national distribution (in bookstores, offered by book club(s)) AS self-published books. There may not be a lot of examples, but Fern Reiss's books do prove that it can be done. (Her "Publishing Game" books have been offered by Writer's Digest Book Club and are in real bookstores, such as Barnes & Noble.) There are also books that are by design regional or local, and success means sales and distribution in that market. Self-publishing need not be just a means to a different end. I could cite several examples I personally know right here in Northern California.

--Ken

[DaveKuzminski]

But, did any of those successful self-publishers create their own distribution companies?

[SeanDSchaffer]

It's that time again... time for Another Random Thought Of Possible Interest To PA Authors!

Today's totally hypothetical question...

Why does PA's web site look so much like a Recruitment Site For Writers, rather than like a bookstore?



You know? I never really thought about that before. I've noticed on real publishers' sites, that their main focus is selling books, not recruiting new writers.

If that's the way real publishers work, what does that make PublishAmerica when all they do is recruit new writers?

(I hate to say it, but the only word that comes to my mind is 'authormill'.)

I can't believe I never thought about that before. Thanks for pointing that out. This is some very good information that many newbie writers will be glad to have at their disposal.

I wish I had known this stuff when I first saw PA's site.


:popcorn:

[mreddin]

But, did any of those successful self-publishers create their own distribution companies?

This normally would not be necessary if they got accepted by Biblio for distribution. Supposedly though, if you have a savvy marketing plan it is possible to get Ingram to carry you directly despite only having 1 title, in which case you could function as your own distributor though it's alot of work. It probably does not make financial sense to try and do that unless you have a nice backlist of your own titles. Otherwise I don't think you could ever justify the expenses associated with catalogs and such.

Mike

[mreddin]

(I hate to say it, but the only word that comes to my mind is 'authormill'.)

Why are you insulting authormills by associating them with PA? Even authormills have standards... ;)

[Passionate N.Y. Lady]

Jena, thank you for letting me post. I, for one, agree with you, PA needs to be forthright or close shop. I have my doubts they will do either, but I am a hopeless optimist and feel one of the two will come to pass. I will applaud those here for their efforts to save others from being taken in by somewhat deceptive practices on PA’s part. It breaks my heart to see so many people having a dream destroyed because of the PA’s clever wording and legalize.

Jim, I do not know for sure if Larry’s statement on the increase in submissions is true or not, I am only going by what he said and by my gut instinct. If you are an anxious new author, desperate to get into print, PA, regardless of their reputation, still looks like a mighty good deal. If they don’t know of AW or do a search on google, they will never hear of the pitfalls before it’s too late. Even the minimal press coverage on PA, has yet to discredit them and effect them in a significant magnitude, so I assume. It seems to me, the debate on POD’s and vanity presses, etc., and their effect on the publishing world is still under debate, and no one in the media has come right out and said, PA is a scam, beware, run for the hills. If I didn’t see AW, or the news articles mentioned on the PA boards, I would not have known of their poor reputation. I don’t know of any way to have the numbers substantiated Larry spoke of, doubt anyone really has, unless it is the law itself that intervenes, should PA come under investigation.

I believe, for every disappointed PA author, there are those just as happy with their association with PA. I’ve read many post there, regarding the authors gratitude to PA for giving them something to leave their children and family. That is all many wanted, all they expected from PA.

I am not a supporter of PA, unless it is just for the fact you want a little family book to leave as your legacy, or you have plenty of money for advertising and marketing to see your dreams of becoming a best selling author come to fruition. I am a supporter of the other PA authors who are floundering and wondering what hit them after seeing their books in print that are less than up to par, or are well written but have astronomical price tags attached to them.

[Ed Williams]

....PA is! Check this out:

I was so excited to see an e-mail from PA. The e-mail was addressed to me with the name of my book Behind The Red Door. They said I had 48 hours to look them over and send reply. Problem was, it was not my proofs. They were another author's by the name of Ellen Burmeister. I e-mailed PA immediately. Has this happend to anyone else?This poor author, I can't even imagine. Folks, this is the kind of thing that happens when you run an authormill...

[James D. Macdonald]

I am not a supporter of PA, unless it is just for the fact you want a little family book to leave as your legacy, or you have plenty of money for advertising and marketing to see your dreams of becoming a best selling author come to fruition.

If having a few copies of your book to pass out to your family and friends is what you're after, PA may not be the wrong choice for you.

On the other hand, no amount of advertising and marketing will make a PA book a best seller. The barriers PA has erected are just too high.

[mreddin]

Speaking of Author Mills...

Thus far out of 8 respondants, reporting sales figures for 9 books.

Publish America Books

Average Retail Price: $20.39
Average Page Count: 224
-----------------------
Average Sales to Trade (Amazon/B&N Online, Bookstores): 96* units
PA's print costs via Ingram: $3.89 per unit
PA's net income before plant costs: $889 (trade sales - LSI print cost)
-------------------------
Average Author Purchase Price: $12.93
Average Author Sales: 135 units
PA's print costs for Author Direct Sales: $5.47
PA's net income before plant costs: $1007 (Author sales - LSI print costs)
-------------------------------
Average Friends & Family Price: $16.73
Average Friends & Family Sales: 11

Average PA's print costs for Family/Friends Direct Sales: $5.47
Average PA's net income before plant costs: $132 (F&F sales - LSI print cost)
------------------------
Average Projected Net Income

Sales - LSI Print costs - Plant (Editing/Design) = $1,340 per ISBN/Title

PA likely lost money on 3 of the 9 books.

* Only 2 of 9 books exceeded 15 trade sales. If we removed those 2 books (that sold several hundred via the trade) as statistical anomolies, you end up with $159 average net income to PA from the trade sales channels. However, $1,143 of net income was earned from author purchases. This represents about 56% of the total net income going to PublishAmerica from the 7 books.

Folks does this sound like a "traditional" publisher? Think Random House or Tor make the majority of their income from their own authors?

I'll break the numbers down further when I get a few more reports to crunch into the spreadsheet. I'm also still hoping someone can find evidence on what PA editors and graphic designers are getting paid. We know the number of employees and time spent on book from Clopper's own admissions in the AP news story and other sources.

Notes:

LSI charges 2 different rates. Their printing rates drop when a sale comes
through Ingram. So PA pays more for direct sales which LSI prints and sends to them than they pay for a sale made to Ingram. Ergo, PA gets a much better margin by selling to the trade.

Query: So why does PA erect all the artificial barriers against trade sales?

Income: True net income needs to take into account both the LSI
print charges and the "plant costs" of crafting a book which
includes editing, cover design, setup charges at LSI and
(in theory) promotion. Out of the 8 authors surveyed, none
reported any kind of marketing done by PA on the behalf of
their authors. I have two reports of zero editing being done, in other
words the author compared the "proof" from PA and the original manuscript and found zero changes.


Mike

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

If having a few copies of your book to pass out to your family and friends is what you're after, PA may not be the wrong choice for you.Except, why would you go with a vanity publisher who seals your memoirs up in a seven year contract; who overprices your book so that your friends and family experience literary highway robbery; and whose Author Support email response team functions like an abusive spouse, and will not reliably fix any errors they themselves have introduced into your beloved family heirloom?

I cannot imagine--even in the case of only wanting a few copies to leave to your family--that PA is ever anything but the wrong choice. There are better vanity publishers out there (http://www.lulu.com/) who are just as cheap on the front end (free) and even cheaper on the back end (because you get to control the cover price).

You know? I never really thought about that before. I've noticed on real publishers' sites, that their main focus is selling books, not recruiting new writers.I never thought about it before reading up on PA, either!

When, later, I asked after Pagan publishers and was told about Spilled Candy Press (http://spilledcandy.com/), I found it a reassuring sign that I had trouble finding the submission guidelines. It was easier to find the page aimed at bookstores and distributors. I've never had occasion before to be relieved at having difficulty in finding what I wanted!

[mreddin]

I believe, for every disappointed PA author, there are those just as happy with their association with PA. I’ve read many post there, regarding the authors gratitude to PA for giving them something to leave their children and family. That is all many wanted, all they expected from PA.

The crux of the problem is that nowhere on PA's website does it intimate that "We're a great place to have free books made for your family." Instead they claim to be a "traditional" publisher which means bookstore sales. Why would someone go to Random House and make a submission if they only expected Aunt Mable and Grandson Jimmy to read the book? Presumably PA is a legitimate outfit, so I'd expect my book to be sent from "Sea to shining sea". You and I know this is a falsehood, so how many authors do you really think went to PA not wanting or expecting their book to be properly designed and edited, distributed, marketed and fairly priced? These are the hallmarks of the so called "traditional" publishing house, not a family book binder that Kinko's could have done more artfully and actually much cheaper on a per book basis.

The bottom line is, some of the victims are happy. However, this does not render them no longer victims. This is why the moment an author shows signs of not being happy, they are banned and ostracized from the PA community.

Anyways, it is nice to have you with us PL.

Mike

[SeanDSchaffer]

I'm not feeling all that good. I've been considering breaking my contract completely with PA, but am afraid to for fear of legal retribution by them.

I want out of PA's contract; I think you all know that. But honestly speaking, I presently feel hopeless and very, very depressed. (Part of this could be my Disthymia--a form of clinical depression that I suffer from often.) I wonder if this is the kind of revenge the Stooges three want to wreak on dreamers like us?

I'm also curious if there's anything I can do to completely cut ties with them--regardless of what happens to Wyverinia Chronicles, the book I am under contract with them for--without their being able somehow to sue, and at the same time without any legal problems arising in future days (weeks, months, whatever) for my having been signed with them?

Honestly speaking, I've finally gotten to the point where my first book is not really that important to me anymore. What really matters to me is my writing career--my future. I know that eventually, if my Bible is true in what it says, everything will work out for my good. It's just the getting to that point that totally throws me for a loop.

I've told PA--this has been several weeks ago--that I would continue to work with them on my book. I now understand this to be a major mistake on my part. I want to send them an email stating that I shall no longer work with them at all, but the truth be told, I am terrified what a big company with their resources could do to me if I decide to do what is right.


Does anyone here have any words of encouragement and maybe instruction on how to deal with this situation? I'd appreciate any help I can get right about now.

(Oh, and I'm afraid of talking to a lawyer. I have a nasty habit of stuttering and stammering, and further, wouldn't know diddly about how to properly introduce myself to one.)

[mreddin]

Does anyone here have any words of encouragement and maybe instruction on how to deal with this situation? I'd appreciate any help I can get right about now.

(Oh, and I'm afraid of talking to a lawyer. I have a nasty habit of stuttering and stammering, and further, wouldn't know diddly about how to properly introduce myself to one.)

Why don't you send a private message to JAWS who will know you from this thread. I believe this is his field of expertise. What you need is a *literary* attorney that understands what your going through. Nowadays most of the initial contact can be done via email, so stuttering should not be an impede you from seeking remedy. If PA has in any way breached the contract, you may have an out but only an attorney is going to be able to help you. Since it sounds like Ann may have something up her sleeve pending soon, you might send her an email as well. There may also be other options, such as repackaging the book. So don't give up just yet!

Mike

[Passionate N.Y. Lady]

The crux of the problem is that nowhere on PA's website does it intimate that "We're a great place to have free books made for your family." Instead they claim to be a "traditional" publisher which means bookstore sales.
Mike

And so what? My whole point is, it's a done deal. I went with them, without doing further research, and I'm stuck with them and their name. I am not a victim, I am a realist, and I accept my responsibility for having chosen them. Look, P.T. Barnum said it best, "There’s a sucker born every minute." I’ll speak for myself and say, I am one of them. I am also one of those authors who chose to go to PA for a little family history book, get my two copies for free and move on. Then I got caught up it the glory of, oh, this is going to be for sale to the public, let me make it better and just maybe, just maybe, it will make me an author. Yeah, right. Anyway, to get back to my point, PA is not without fault, but in the end, it was I who made the choice. Should I have gone to a literary lawyer before I signed on the dotted line? For sure, but I did not. I didn’t want to shell out the couple of bucks it would have cost. After all, I was looking for a no out of pocket venture and getting two free books out of the deal. It was just easier to believe what I wanted to believe. PA took the center ring; in publishing offers online, and put on a good show using smoke and mirrors to create an illusion of something that wasn’t really there, and I was sucked in. They didn’t twist my arm to sign with them, nor did they promise to make me a best selling author. They have fulfilled their contractual agreement, they are in the clear; thus far according to the assorted state attorney generals approached and Maryland law. We can nit pick the semantics on their site and in their contracts till the cows comes home, but it is not going to change a thing, what’s done is done.

Did I believe the book I penned would be in bookstores from sea to shining see? Of course I did. And technically it is, online. Did I believe PA would edit my book in a professional manner? Yes to that, too. Again, what I expected and what I got are two different things. I can easily place the blame elsewhere for my shortcomings as a first time author and as a consumer, and we can beat the topic of what PA should or should not do like a dead horse, but it will not change anything for me. Until PA is forced to either set their course straight and makes good on their word; their clever words I myself may have misinterpreted; I not being a lawyer, or they go belly up and sink, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. Those who have books with PA, that didn’t turn out as they planned are, more or less, and for the time being, just out to luck.

Others can spend their time, money, and energy on lawyers fighting PA to get back what they feel they have lost, but I doubt many have the time, energy, or the money to take it upon themselves to venture into such an ordeal. A class action suit, well, that may help, but it still involves time and energy, and possibly the loss of salary, should they have to make a court appearance or give depositions. I for one, need to try to make the best of a bleak situation, get back on track, write my next book, revise my first to mask it as a new work, and move on with whatever writing career I may have in store for me in the future.

Mike, I think you are a nice person, so please take my comments in the nature in which they are given, this is not an attack on you, just my sentiments on this whole ugly ordeal that has become a three ring circus.

And Sean, don’t beat yourself up over this, it’s just not worth it. Don’t let PA drive you to a state of depression. I know you don’t believe this, but as they say, "There is light at the end of the tunnel, and it is always darkest before the dawn." You have people here who will help and guide you, and all will work out for you in the end. Don’t diminish what you have accomplished, you started something and you followed through and that, my dear, lady, makes you special.

[Diana Hignutt]

Well, I'm off to NYC too (actually, I'm not going until tomorrow morning but I'm gonna be real busy until then).

I'm looking forward to meeting Jenna and Dee and several other AW members (and Fred and Pete from Behler) and, of course, hoping a pull off a win at the ForeWord Magazine Book of the Year Award (though Bill Desmedt's Singularity is probably favored). So root for me and Empress of Clouds between 3-5pm tomorrow.

See you all in few days!

And remember, DOWN WITH PUBLISHAMERICA!

Diana

[Christine N.]

The real Moral Majority would be quite unhappy to know that you have included me in their ranks (LOL, sorry inside joke).

diana

LOL, Diana... I was thinking the same thing. Good Luck in NY!

Boob, that's the beauty of this message board...we can all have DIFFERENT opinions. Just try that on the PA board. You'll be banned faster than you can say "non-exclusive."

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Sean, don't be depressed. God does work things out for those who place their trust in Him. Continue to read the bible.There you will find a major theme God
Himself wrote. Do unto others as you would have them do unto to you. I like to call it the :the boomerang effect". "What you do comes back to you". That would include dishonest business transactions,and the people who practice them. Your best revenge against Publish America is to prove to them, that you
did not lose your passion on becoming a published author. Continue to write,Sean. Do your best, and keep your chin up. All good and bad things? God sorts them out. Publish America will not escape the "big sort out". Go your way,Sean, and let God handle everything else. I'll be praying for you.

[MadScientistMatt]

Sean,

I can understand being afraid that they might sue. But I don't expect them to do this if you quit promoting your book. Sure, PublishAmerica is a big company. But it's a safe bet that thousands of their authors have quit working with them on their books before you have. They do not have the resources to sue everyone who quits promoting their book because there are so many of them.

More importantly, I believe they are likely to have far more reasons to fear a court battle than you do. There is not much they could gain from going after you; what, maybe a couple hundred in lost sales? But if a trial brought to light that they'd failed to pay you royalties or other things that could get them indicted for criminal behavior, they would have lost everything. Everything.

All they can do to you is bluster and scream, "Do not address us in such a tone!" They can't do anything more. If things even started to look like a real legal battle was about to happen, they would start screaming, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! The Great Oz has spoken!" But it's the man behind the curtain that would be put on public trial.

[realitychuck]

I'm not feeling all that good. I've been considering breaking my contract completely with PA, but am afraid to for fear of legal retribution by them.

I want out of PA's contract; I think you all know that. But honestly speaking, I presently feel hopeless and very, very depressed. (Part of this could be my Disthymia--a form of clinical depression that I suffer from often.) I wonder if this is the kind of revenge the Stooges three want to wreak on dreamers like us?Don't be afraid. The Stooges are big on threats, but rarely follow through. If the case were to go to court, their business practices might come out, and that's the last thing they want.

Does anyone here have any words of encouragement and maybe instruction on how to deal with this situation? I'd appreciate any help I can get right about now.Write another book. Not only will the act of creation make you fell better, but you'll have something to send to a real publisher.

[James D. Macdonald]

How would they know if you stopped promoting your book? The sales would be about the same.

[Aconite]

Regarding the Ignore function and freedom of speech:

In the U.S. (remember, not all people here are American), you have the right to speak your mind without being imprisoned for your views. This does not mean others are forced to listen to you expound your views*, as they also have rights.

For example, if you come to my door and start harranging me that I'm going to Hell because I don't follow the One, True, Right, and Only Way (tm), I am not permitted to shoot you. I am permitted to order you off my property, and to have you arrested if you do not go. If all I do is close the door in your face and let you lecture the door, I'm being quite tolerant. If you see my closing the door in your face as a denial of your right to free speech, you need to get 1) an education and 2) over your martyr complex.

*Or, for that matter, to agree with you, to refrain from criticizing your views, to give your views the respect you think they deserve, or to refrain from imposing social penalties for unpopular views. Manners may require some of those things, but they are not covered by freedom of speech.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I must admit, I was really down in the dumps last night. Depression can do that to a person. However, I feel much better now, mostly due to you guys' words of encouragement.

I know I should probably see a lawyer, but the issue with me is, PA has fulfilled every part of their contract heretofore. I have no legal gripe with them for their actions with me. My problem is mainly the way they treat authors. The public scorn, berating, the expectation of an immediate apology when a simple question is asked; these things are the main reason I finally left PA.

Of course, my book cover and its price didn't much inspire my confidence in them as a Publisher, but the way they treat authors was truly the last straw.

I guess I'll send them an email later today, telling them I shall no longer work with them. What they do with my book is, well, their business as they have the rights to it. But I refuse to work with a Company that takes writers' dreams (and writers themselves) and utterly destroys them because their own dreams of being famous writers never went anywhere.


Thanks again for all your kind words.


BTW, I would like to make one correction, if I could. To Passionate N.Y. Lady: for future reference, I'm a man, not a lady; although I am very touched by what you've said to me. Thank you also for your kind words. They are highly appreciated.:)

[James D. Macdonald]

I know I should probably see a lawyer, but the issue with me is, PA has fulfilled every part of their contract heretofore. I have no legal gripe with them for their actions with me.

How about their false and misleading advertising that induced you to sign that contract in the first place?

Meanwhile, for those interested: While it's well known and widely discussed that PA has a short discount through Ingram, the question has arisen: How about Baker & Taylor?

Answer: PA also has a short discount through B&T.

[Christine N.]

Infohelmet strikes again, smacking the hand of the bad little author who DARED to say that something wasn't perfect in PAland.


From the "Recieved the wrong proofs thread";

"We don't think this deserves all this attention. You should have e-mailed your editor"


Ugh! Now, granted if I have a problem with something having to do with my book (not that I have had anything major) I DO take it directly to the person who can fix it. BUT they also answer me in a courteous AND timely manner.

I can feel this poor author's frustration, and all PA has to say is "naughty, naughty".

[PVish]

....PA is! Check this out:

This poor author, I can't even imagine. Folks, this is the kind of thing that happens when you run an authormill...

and PA answers the desperate author who dares to publicly ask for help:

Not sure this is worthy of all this attention; apparently a mistake was made.

Next time please send an email to your editor.

...and this guy—who doesn't even have his book published—takes up for the poor author who got the wrong PDF:
Infocenter,
This forum is primarily there for the authors to chat, discuss & encourage one another. It was obviously important for the author to mention this, so it's worthy the attention, especially since it's the 2nd time it has happened in about 2 weeks (that has been mentioned on here that we know about).
It has been said that it'll get sorted out as a reply by someone else, so I really don't see the purpose of your senseless comments. It'll make me want to stop posting here altogether, just in case you don't find my postings important enough.

Well, he knows what a forum should be; unfortunately, the PA forum ain't it.

[JennaGlatzer]

Well, that was frustrating. I had this long answer written out and the site went down. Grrr! Anyway, Sean, I'm here and available for a three-way call if you ever need someone to be your megaphone. I have two family members with severe stutters and speech impediments and I understand how that could make you nervous, but please don't let it stop you from anything you need to do. Write me anytime and I'd be glad to be on a call with you to help you with any discussions you want.

Now, aside from that, I'm not sure why you think PA would sue you. The only reason they'd have to sue is if you had your first book republished by someone else while you're still under contract with them. They can't sue you for not marketing the book. Is that what you meant?

Third, those dopes aren't worth your depression. I know you have more books in you, and now you know better what to look for and how publishing should work. Big hugs to you. You have lots of friends here, and I know you'll move past this. It's sad to lose your first book for so long, but eventually, that contract WILL end, and in the meantime, you may have written and published many other books. Keep your chin up, Sean! I'll say a prayer for you, too.

[Jeff]

It's easy for me to say, since I am not in the particular situation that so many here are, so I will say it:

Write. Write more. Keep writing. Learn. Grow. Become a better writer, then become a better one still. Write. Use what you have gone through. Write, write, write.

Sucess is the best revenge.

-Jeff

[James D. Macdonald]

Right on!

When you publish your book with a commercial publisher you'll have achieved something that Willem, Miranda, and Larry never managed.

[Patricia]

and PA answers the desperate author who dares to publicly ask for help:

Not sure this is worthy of all this attention; apparently a mistake was made.

Next time please send an email to your editor.




Thank you, PVish, for posting the "correct" rersponse from Info Center. I think it is extremely important if we quote from the PA public boards we get it right.

The defender post is gone, of course. I didn't see it, if it's still there.

The "reduce energy" guy is fast defending PA again, I see. I'm starting to wonder if he is Shemp's protege!

I totally agree with Jeff and Jim -- my goal exactly!

[Ed Williams]

Right on!

When you publish your book with a commercial publisher you'll have achieved something that Willem, Miranda, and Larry never managed....if you read current PA verbiage, that they're all still very aware of...

[mdmkay]

YOU GUYS AREN'T GOING TO BELIEVE THIS...I just got this email from some lady dying on the Ivory Coast and she has 15 million US dollars in the bank and she's going to give it ALL to me me me...........hey, wait a minute.....isn't that how I got involved with PA??????????????? aw sh$t........

On another note...not all PA authors are stipid and just wallow in self-pity and depression over being scammed by PA....there are alot of us who consider it an expensive lesson but know that as Uncle Jim is so fond of saying that going on to publish with a real publisher will be the best revenge. In the meantime I'm writing, I'm studying, I'm learning........and I'm becoming alot less "stipid" as time rolls on.

My opinion on arguing on forums........you know its a public forum...you know that there will be people who disagree with you....if your that insulted...get over it, use your ignore button, switch threads, or turn your computer off........its your choice

[Christine N.]

Oh dear. I am sorry I didn't cut and paste, merely paraphrased. Shame on me. Whatever.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Depression. Been there, done that more times than I care to admit. "Anger turned inward" is the classical definition of a downward spiral into the non-illuminated depths of what appears to be a dark swirling slimy liquid cascade into an emotional pit of despair. My experiences with depression was initiated due to loss of control and emotionally genuflecting to individuals who were determined to maintain their absolute rule over others.

Once I realized that the emotional room in which I was confined became suffocating, like a cartoon character – I drew a door and walked out. Sometimes, just for grins, I drew a window. In each scenario the first step or plunge was indeed, liberating. Becoming acclimated to new surroundings was frightening. However, I was determined not to emotionally confine myself to a new room, which had all the trappings of the same room, which I just vacated.

After years of trial and error I managed to secure emotional alarm systems and red flags which would sound a resounding alert to any potential emotional harm. At the first sign of emotional history, which was about to rear its ugly head and try to encapsulate my intellect and swallow me whole, I would release an emotional form of bold black ink – and escape.

It is my opinion that an individual possesses the ability to release the bonds which traps them in the cellar of depression by releasing the flood of anger which resides within – much like the Incredible Hulk, and walking away. Yes, that is correct. Walk Away! Tell whoever is causing you great emotional pain and anger – OFF ! Then, walk away. This action will diminish the hold the individual has on you and cut off the fuel which feeds their ego. You will find that the opposing individual will become smaller – and will then automatically seek out others to emotionally feed on.

Once an individual is emotionally free of the depression demon, that individual then can free their mind of the emotional oppression – and focus attention on their true desires. It is a cold world. However, once a newly released individual breathes fresh air and explores the unencumbered and spacious field of freedom, that individual can lay claim to their own patch of happiness.

It takes intestinal fortitude to walk away from all that is familiar. However, the treadmill of oppression and depression combined with the chains that bind – is extremely intellectually exhausting. An individual must gather and employ the strength that resides deep with in their mind, ready to be discharged – to finally extricate and escape the jaws of continuing emotional discord.

I am still learning how to recognize and expose the stealthy demon which, if I let it, lure and trap me into its lair. However, my depression radar is always on. Yes, I may sometimes be fooled by the sensuous fragrance and bait an individual or individuals may deploy to disguise their motives. However, experience and knowledge is power – and my batteries are fully charged to sting my way to freedom.

An individual has the option to decline a succulent invitation to dine and feast at depressions sumptuous table. The key word: Choice. You can immediately RSVP that you will be out of town, when an emotionally oppressive individual makes first contact. When approached again, fire the first defensive vocal volley of words that will inhibit that individual’s future attempts to engage your emotions. Sound the Red Alert & Raise Shields, immediately.

Argile Stox

[SeanDSchaffer]

Well, that was frustrating. I had this long answer written out and the site went down. Grrr!

I was wondering why, all-of-a-sudden, I couldn't log on. At least the IT people know what they're doing. If this had been PA's boards....

Anyway, Sean, I'm here and available for a three-way call if you ever need someone to be your megaphone. I have two family members with severe stutters and speech impediments and I understand how that could make you nervous, but please don't let it stop you from anything you need to do. Write me anytime and I'd be glad to be on a call with you to help you with any discussions you want.

It's not really a severe stutter, but it's just enough to be very bothersome. I think I stutter and stammer so much because I want my wording to be just right. And what really bothers me about it is I can never find the right word for something unless I go through the process of saying it over and over and over again.

(i.e. Let's say my foot itches. I will reach down to my foot and say, "Man, my head itches--er, my ear itches--er, my...." See what I mean?) That's why I stutter and stammer as much as I do. If only you could see what goes into each and every post I make on this or any board just to get the wording right, LOL!

I appreciate the megaphone idea, BTW. I might take you up on that. I've received some PM's concerning this very subject from others on this forum, too. They've all been very helpful.

Now, aside from that, I'm not sure why you think PA would sue you. The only reason they'd have to sue is if you had your first book republished by someone else while you're still under contract with them. They can't sue you for not marketing the book. Is that what you meant?

Yes, that is actually what I meant. I'm not about to re-package my book and send it elsewhere, just because it doesn't seem right to me to do so. I worked 17 years on that story and, well, changing character names and stuff like that kind of irks me.

I was going to email them and let them know that I will no longer market my book. Would such an action be advisable, or should I just not say anything at all to them?

Third, those dopes aren't worth your depression. I know you have more books in you, and now you know better what to look for and how publishing should work. Big hugs to you. You have lots of friends here, and I know you'll move past this. It's sad to lose your first book for so long, but eventually, that contract WILL end, and in the meantime, you may have written and published many other books. Keep your chin up, Sean! I'll say a prayer for you, too.

This last paragraph most certainly makes me feel much better. Sometimes I forget that the contract shall eventually end. And you're right: it is indeed sad to lose your first book for such a long period of time, but like you said, the contract will end, and I have no intention whatsoever of simply giving up on my career. I've been writing almost 23 years now--even though WC is the only work I've ever had 'published'--and giving up on my dreams after so long a period of hard work and much improvement in my writing abilities, is something I simply cannot bring myself to do.

Thanks for the hugs, and for the prayers. Though they're not highly considered by the world at large, those two things can make more difference in a person's life than just about anything else that can be done for a situation such as this. Thanks again Jenna. I do feel much better.

:Sun:

[SeanDSchaffer]

Depression. Been there, done that more times than I care to admit. "Anger turned inward" is the classical definition of a downward spiral into the non-illuminated depths of what appears to be a dark swirling slimy liquid cascade into an emotional pit of despair. My experiences with depression was initiated due to loss of control and emotionally genuflecting to individuals who were determined to maintain their absolute rule over others.

[....Snipped for length....]

Argile Stox


It's good of you to point that out, Argile. I think all the points you made on your post are quite valid.

The thing with me is, a lot of my major depression symptoms are exactly that: symptoms of a mental illness I suffer from. I don't know if you've heard of Disthymia before, but it's a form of clinical depression involving, much like any form of clinical depression does, a chemical imbalance in the brain. The Disthymia was, I believe, part of my problem last night.

On the same token, the Disthymia was compounded by events unfolding in my life--not just PA, but some personal issues, as well--and had I not spoken out my problem to someone, it would most likely have gotten much worse....even to the point of my 'blowing up' at someone for no apparent reason.

So my way of dealing with Depression has lately been to tell a friend or family member about the Depression I was feeling. Well, last night had so much to do with PublishAmerica that the only people I knew would really understand, would be the people on this thread.

At the same time, I believe a lot has been said not only in support of myself, but also in support of the many, many PA authors who have been slighted by their so-called Publisher. I hope these posts will remain up--that's really a dumb statement as most everything does stay up on this forum unless it's offensive or way off-topic--for the sake of those people as well as myself. It's one thing to have complaints about a particular problem; it's quite another to have remedies to those things. I, for one, am happy to see so many PA authors finding ways of dealing with the situation at hand that are both productive for themselves and helpful toward others.

Everyone on these boards has been very supportive of me and of the other PA'ers that are here. This is much better than I had originally thought it would be when I first joined this site. You're all very kind; I highly appreciate every one of you.

[Arkie]

It goes without saying, that PA survives primarily by recruiting new writers and selling books to those they publish. What if the new PA author didn't buy his/her book for fear of violating tax/licensing laws. How long could PA survive, if they had to sell the books they published?

I assume that each city and state has tax laws and license requirements for any business practice, which includes book selling. And I assume that these laws and license requirements are being violated on a regular basis by authors, whether PA, vanity, etc, if the authors buy their books from the publisher for resale, whether through consignment or otherwise. What if a negative seed was planted with a positive comment?

What if PA author's web sites and e-mail was posted with a positive helpful message. For example: "Congratulations on becoming a new author. If you contemplate purchasing copies of your book for resale either directly or by placing the book in businesses on consignment, please take time to check your local, state (and federal) laws regarding the collection of sales taxes and payment of city, state and federal income tax, and license fees. Again, congratulations and good luck."

How many author's minds are going to be changed about spending $500.00 for fifty books after reading that message?

[Diana Hignutt]

Still here. I thought it'd be crazy here (at the office) today, but my accountant finished up early and I found a few moments to post.

Sean, just thank heavens you didn't have one of those old PA contracts like I did - the term of the copyright and all renewals. God bless my attorney. BTW, you have a PM from yours truly (um, that would be me).

It wasn't so long ago that I was really depressed about the whole PA disaster. (just ask my dear friends, Jenna and Ed). Yeah, still depressed even after I got my book back. No longer. I intend to work harder than ever on my writing. If success is the best revenge, I shall bask in revenge. You can too. As they say in Galaxy Quest - Never Surrender, Never Give up. I will have a bestseller one of these days, or at least, I'll never stop trying....

Okay, I'm officially gone now.

diana

[batgirl]

Here's my question. Since Sean (hi Sean!) created a (quite intriguing) fantasy world in his first book, what rights does PA have to that world?

They own the book itself, for a few more years. They own the title, I guess, but I've read that titles aren't generally copyrightable, so maybe that's toothless. Is there anything to stop Sean exploring other stories in that same world? Writing about what happened before, after, or during the events of his first book? Giving a secondary or minor character central stage and following his/her story?
I'm a fan of Jo Clayton's books (moment of silence in memoriam) and she built a number of stories as offshoots from the Diadem series, following characters through their own adventures.
Of course, I don't know if Sean wants to do that, but it seems to me he should have the right to if he wants.

Also, unless there are some very specific provisions about how the author is to self-promote (and I'm betting there aren't) in the PA contract, and unless they could somehow prove he hadn't done it (how?), surely there would be no grounds for suing on their part.
Plus, as has been pointed out, they have a lot to lose by suing, because a real court case would bring them under the spotlight.

-Barbara

[SeanDSchaffer]

Still here. I thought it'd be crazy here (at the office) today, but my accountant finished up early and I found a few moments to post.

Sean, just thank heavens you didn't have one of those old PA contracts like I did - the term of the copyright and all renewals. God bless my attorney. BTW, you have a PM from yours truly (um, that would be me).

It wasn't so long ago that I was really depressed about the whole PA disaster. (just ask my dear friends, Jenna and Ed). Yeah, still depressed even after I got my book back. No longer. I intend to work harder than ever on my writing. If success is the best revenge, I shall bask in revenge. You can too. As they say in Galaxy Quest - Never Surrender, Never Give up. I will have a bestseller one of these days, or at least, I'll never stop trying....

Okay, I'm officially gone now.

diana


I've heard a lot about those lifetime contracts lately. They scare me big-time. And yes, I got your PM; thank you kindly for the help. I had to write the information down because, though my computer's default email system is Outlook Express, I always use my ISP's email system as I highly prefer it. I will, probably within the next day or so, see about following up on the info you gave me. Again, thank you kindly for your help.

When you quoted Galaxy Quest, the saying 'Never Surrender; Never Give Up' reminded me of a saying from my own book.

No Surrender--No Retreat.

I don't know where that saying originally came from (I'm pretty sure I remembered it from something I read or saw on TV in my childhood) but if I could write that kind of wording into the last battle scene of a 91,000-word epic in as powerful a way as I did, then I should be able to believe it and follow its words.

I'll not be a hypocrite; I'll practice what I preach. No Surrender--No Retreat. Thank you, Diana, for reminding me of something I'd forgotten.


Sean D. Schaffer

[SeanDSchaffer]

Here's my question. Since Sean (hi Sean!) created a (quite intriguing) fantasy world in his first book, what rights does PA have to that world?

They own the book itself, for a few more years. They own the title, I guess, but I've read that titles aren't generally copyrightable, so maybe that's toothless. Is there anything to stop Sean exploring other stories in that same world? Writing about what happened before, after, or during the events of his first book? Giving a secondary or minor character central stage and following his/her story?
I'm a fan of Jo Clayton's books (moment of silence in memoriam) and she built a number of stories as offshoots from the Diadem series, following characters through their own adventures.
Of course, I don't know if Sean wants to do that, but it seems to me he should have the right to if he wants.

Also, unless there are some very specific provisions about how the author is to self-promote (and I'm betting there aren't) in the PA contract, and unless they could somehow prove he hadn't done it (how?), surely there would be no grounds for suing on their part.
Plus, as has been pointed out, they have a lot to lose by suing, because a real court case would bring them under the spotlight.

-Barbara


Hi Barbara.

In actuality, I had originally intended Wyverinia Chronicles to be a series of books. I don't know if they own the derivative rights or not (I'll have to ask a lawyer about that) but I do know that the title Wyverinia Chronicles isn't copyrighted, because like you said, titles can't be copyrighted.

A friend of mine (a songwriter) put it to me this way:

Roger Miller wrote a song entitled 'King of the Road.' If the guy down the street wrote a totally different song than Miller's version, but entitled it 'King of the Road,' Mr. Miller's Copyright would not have been infringed because titles can't be copyrighted.

Now, on the other hand, had the guy down the street written the exact wording to Mr. Miller's version and entitled it something totally different, Mr. Miller's Copyright would have been infringed upon, because the Copyright protects the content of the said song.

The problem for me is, I don't know if I can write a derivative work to Wyverinia Chronicles or not, because so much of that book is completely made up (character names, places, company names, etc.) that it would be extremely easy for someone to look into the original book and say, "This work is derivative because the name 'Tarlosia C' appears in it"; or "This work is derivative because the land of Tanlaaden is found within its covers".

I'm not so sure that a derivative work would not be seen by PublishAmerica as an infringement on their rights to my book by me, if I submitted one to another publisher.


On your other point, there are some specific notes in the contract about self-promotion, although they are limited to the Author 'Making himself available' to do things to promote his or her book. If I really had stopped and thought about it, that's all there is in the PA contract that I signed, concerning what exactly I must do to promote my work.

So there is something there, but 'making myself available' to do stuff is about all I am required to do.

[KathieM]

Hi. I've been trying to read all of this thread but have had to skip around through the many posts. I am an author who was looking for a publisher, and through a publisher search, found PA. I was thrilled by what I saw on the site. That I could finally become a published author, and it wouldn't cost me one red cent. I began preparing my first manuscript for submission, while I continued looking around for more author's message boards. I found "Mind Sight" and began to read all of the awful things that PA had done to it's authors. I began to wonder if all of this stuff was true, beause I really wanted to have my work published. I continued to look for more info and author's message boards. I found this place. Now I can honestly say that I have made the right decision NOT to submit my manuscript to PA for consideration (or publication, since they publish most ms' submitted). It was authors like you all here and the ones at "Mind Sight" that have saved me from the spider's web. For that, you have my humble gratitude. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteKiss.gif

From Ed Williams
"Something needs to be said about it, because PA is not going to, and someone out there who reads the truth might actually be dissuaded from signing with PA if they see the truth."

You've got that right. Keep on fighting the good fight. Authors who weren't afraid to disclose the real deal on PA, is why I'm sitting here posting WITHOUT a contract. And I'm quite happy about that at the moment. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonbanana.gif


Kathie

[James D. Macdonald]

Sean, you can write derivative works all day and sell 'em where you want. They don't own any rights to your world. All they own is publishing rights to that one book.

KathieM, congratulations on your narrow escape. Please notice that nowhere in the world of legitimate publication does getting published cost you a dime. Rather, the publishers send you considerably more than ten dimes.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sean, you can write derivative works all day and sell 'em where you want. They don't own any rights to your world. All they own is publishing rights to that one book.



That I did not know. I had so many stories I wanted to tell, that I've been worried about never being able to have published because of derivative rights. I'm so glad you clarified that for me, Uncle Jim. Thank you kindly.

Yes, I definitely feel much, much better now. That, in fact, is some of the best news I've heard yet today.

(Evil laugh)

"God, what I shall be able to do with sound!" - Cecil B. DeMille

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Give the boy a break. He has parrot fever.Affects the funny bone.

[Julianne]

New on the PublishAmerica home page:

How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz:
PublishAmerica: The Inside Story of an Underdog With a Bite

Read the story of an underdog publishing company that set out to introduce the entire book publishing business to the twenty-first century. Nothing more, nothing less.

By Willem Meiners
327 pages, $9.95



...where's the throwing up emoticon when I need it?

[SeanDSchaffer]

Give the boy a break. He has parrot fever.Affects the funny bone.


When I quote everybody like I do, it's only because I want other readers to know exactly who I'm responding to. So many people have responded to my post last night, that I didn't want any confusion going around.

Also, I understand where you're coming from with the 'funny bone' comment. But truthfully, I try to always remain as calm as I can. But when I found out that I still have derivative rights to my work, well, I must admit I was (and am still) overjoyed. Perhaps I overdid myself on that last post. If I did so, I humbly apologize for any misconduct. I have nothing but the highest of respect for the people here--and all writers, for that matter.

Anyway, that's the reason I quote people all the time; I just want everyone to know exactly who I am responding to, and what they said that I am responding to. It's nothing more than that, I promise.

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Sean honey, I was referring to H.B. Lowman, with the parrot fever.

[mreddin]

No Surrender--No Retreat.

Praise the great maker JMS, that is a season 4 slogan and the episode of Babylon 5 where Commander Sheridan declares war on Earth and begins the liberation of the colonies from the forces of President Clark and "Nightwatch".

Mike

[SeanDSchaffer]

....

....By Willem Meiners
327 pages, $9.95....

....


It will totally blow me away if Meiners gets away with this. I can easily imagine PA authors getting extremely upset over this when the prices of their books are twice as high for roughly 2/3 the pages.

(Example: Wyverinia Chronicles by Sean D. Schaffer, 259 pages, $21.95.)


How is the dude going to weasel his way out of this one? It may well sink the Pirate Ship....very fast.

[Julianne]

Sean, very interesting, huh?

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sean honey, I was referring to H.B. Lowman, with the parrot fever.


Oh! I got you now. My mistake Charlotte. Sorry about that.

[astonwest]

How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz:
PublishAmerica: The Inside Story of an Underdog With a Bite

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

*hangs head in shame*

Not only is it an object of torment, but they also cut the price way down compared to everything else they publish...talk about getting slapped on both sides of the face...

I think it would be only fitting if someone should come out with the counter-story through Lulu...or better, through a major publisher (Goliath)...

[SeanDSchaffer]

Praise the great maker JMS, that is a season 4 slogan and the episode of Babylon 5 where Commander Sheridan declares war on Earth and begins the liberation of the colonies from the forces of President Clark and "Nightwatch".

Mike

I knew I had heard 'No Surrender--No Retreat' somewhere before I finished my book. My apologies to Mr. Straczynski (I think I spelled that right.)

BTW, I loved that show! It was one of my all-time favorites.

[Julianne]

More details about Meiners' book (Jenna, I hope it's OK to cut and paste this much. If not, just delete it. :) ). This from the PA web site:

Read the story of an underdog publishing company that set out to introduce the entire book publishing business to the twenty-first century. Nothing more, nothing less.

America buys 4.5 million books every day, 1.6 billion books per year.
America counts only 5 percent of the world population, yet Americans purchase 35 percent of all books that are sold worldwide.
The 5 leading publishers sell 80 percent of all books.
The majority of Americans never see the inside of a bookstore; 75 percent of all books are bought elsewhere.
Until recently, less than 1 percent of all authors who had written a book were allowed free access to the masses of readers.
PublishAmerica leveled the playing field for book writers almost overnight. It has successfully challenged Mainstream publishing by opening the gates to Main Street authors-thousands upon thousands of them. And the publishing elite reacts predictably.

The book offers a unique behind-the-scenes look at PublishAmerica.
It shares numerous anecdotes about, and quotes from, many PublishAmerica authors.
It is illustrated with photos of our office and staff.
It answers everything you always wanted to know about book publishing, and about its real heroes: PublishAmerica's authors.
It explains why PublishAmerica's success was inevitable and unstoppable.
It describes how the book publishing business will never be the same.
Written by PublishAmerica CEO Willem Meiners, with an introduction by company president Larry Clopper, How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz tells the story of the most captivating pioneers in today's traditional publishing industry, and their victorious legions of authors:

The inside story of PublishAmerica.

AND ALSO FROM THE SAME PAGE (QUOTE FROM THE BOOK):

About Bookstores:

"How much of a help is a bookstore anyway these days? There are roughly fifteen thousand such stores from sea to shining sea, one bookstore for every 20,000 Americans. But only 6,000 of them have visited a bookstore in the past five years, and 14,000 have not. Only 30 percent of all people go to a bookstore now and then; 70 percent of all Americans can not remember the last time they did. And of the ones who do enter a Barnes & Noble, a Borders, or a Brentano's, 60 percent come in knowing exactly what they want. They walk in, find the book they are coming for, pay, and leave. Only 40 percent of all bookstore visitors, a meager 2400 per average bookstore, over a period of five or so years, are potential impulse buyers [...] And of all bookstores, the big chain bookstores account for only 25 percent of all book sales. Seventy-five percent of all books are sold elsewhere."

AND ALSO FROM THE SAME PAGE (QUOTE FROM THE BOOK):

About Change:

"History has always known elites, and it has always dealt with them in only one way: they disappeared, and always under the pressure of irresistable change. Historically, all elites have been replaced by majority rule, and where this has not happened yet, it will over time, inevitably. As soon as an excluded majority senses that empowerment is within reach, they will grab it. Authors who have always been refused and denied the opportunity to see their book in print unless they paid for it now have an equal opportunity to be in the exact same league as the elite, and they will, by their sheer number, bring an end to the elite's existence."

AND ALSO FROM THE SAME PAGE (QUOTE FROM THE BOOK):

About Motivation:

"I was born just blocks from where Anne Frank hid, where she was betrayed and arrested, and from where she was deported to die in a Nazi death camp. She was not allowed to breathe, to speak, to write. When you read her diary and you see her describe the houses and the streets that were your own childhood's setting, when you learn from your parents that this was in fact the real girl next door, believe me, it gets your attention. It makes you want to fight for equal rights for everyone."

[Dolan]

----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Dolan" <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
To: "PublishAmerica Author Support" <Jessica@PublishAmerica.com (Jessica@PublishAmerica.com)>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Phil Dolan: misconceptions



> Jessica:
>
> You are either stupid or a damned liar. PA's letter is right here in front
> of me. How do you live with yourself telling such bald-face lies?
>
> Your letter with your e-mail will be provided to the chosen mediator as
> additional evidence that PA has lied directly to me, numerous times.
>
> Phillip R. Dolan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Author Support" <Jessica@PublishAmerica.com (Jessica@PublishAmerica.com)>
> To: <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:57 PM
> Subject: Phil Dolan: misconceptions
>
>
>> Dear Mr. Dolan,
>>
>> Do not address us in such a tone. PublishAmerica did not send you any such
>> letter.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Jessica
>> Author Support Team
>> Support@PublishAmerica.com (Support@PublishAmerica.com)
>>
>>
>>> >From: "Phil Dolan" <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
>>> >To: <support@publishamerica.com (support@publishamerica.com)>
>>> >Subject: Arbitration
>>> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500
>>> >
>>> >You should know by now, since you have been receiving copies of letters
>>> from me to the American Arbitration Association that I'm taking PA to
>>> arbitration. Whether you know or not is none of my concern because I'm
>>> getting my contract terminated, even if PA doesn't show up at the
>>> hearing.
>>> >
>>> >You sent me a letter that I received today that makes no sense at all.
>>> >
>>> >"Dear Mr. Dolan:
>>> >I received your letter today concerning the arbitration
>>> clause. However, no copy of the contract or check was enclosed with the
>>> letter. Please forward the enclosures to us at your earliest
>>> convienience.
>>> >Have a great day."
>>> >
>>> >There was no signature.
>>> >
>>> >You have the original contract. Why should I send you a copy? That is
>>> a stupid request and I'll not be sending a copy.
>>> >
>>> >My check sent to AAA is none of your concern and you won't be receiving
>>> a copy of that either.
>>> >
>>> >Good grief! Read you own contract if you want to know what is going on.
>>> >
>>> >Phillip R. Dolan
>>> >
>>> >P. S. Remember this when you send me a snotty reply: Your reply becomes
>>> a part of the arbitration documentation.
>>
>>
>>
>

[James D. Macdonald]

PublishAmerica: The Inside Story of a Dog with an Underbite...

...that set out to introduce the entire book publishing business to the twenty-first century...

... and how no one in the real publishing industry even noticed.

How's Willem selling that book so cheap? At 329 pages, using PublishAmerica's usual pricing, it should go for $24.95. You aren't saying that price does matter now, are you, Willem?

And, just as a By The Way, how is it that they couldn't find a legitimate press to publish the book? Still in that old vanity mode. Still unpublished. Poor Willem!

But on the positive side, at least Jamie Farr is off the front page. (Jamie's appearance on Hollywood Squares was 3-7 November, 2003, if anyone was keeping track, and the announcement predated that.)

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

The thing with me is, a lot of my major depression symptoms are exactly that: symptoms of a mental illness I suffer from. I don't know if you've heard of Disthymia before, but it's a form of clinical depression involving, much like any form of clinical depression does, a chemical imbalance in the brain. The Disthymia was, I believe, part of my problem last night.



I am not nor do I claim to be an authority on chemical imbalances of the brain. However, I have realized that WORDS and their inflections cause an immediate emotional responses via the activation of certain areas of the brain which are controlled by chemical deployments. Joy, Happiness, Elation, Arousal, Sorrow, Depression, etc are all chemical responses to our visual, auditory, and sensory detectors which continually scan our environment.

I have found that by being keenly aware of "triggers" which cause an inward adverse reaction to harmful stimuli, reinforces an individual's defense mechanisms. I constantly ask myself: "Okay. I am aware of my usual negative self-induced depressive reaction pattern to this or that situation. What information do I possess to counteract this knee-jerk reaction? Should I employ the "fight or flight" instantaneous primal principle or would extreme vocalization of my distress be dumped on the offending individual or organization?"

As I became accustomed to this "step-back" approach, my thought processes and reaction time has decreased by defalting to the: "I am going to tell this person or organization OFF immediately, and not dwell on it."

Okay, I hate this visual - Interaction with individuals or "face-time" is a tennis match. You must land the ball in their court very quickly. Make sure the other individual scrambles to toss the ball back into your court. Always keep the opposing individual off balance. After a short period of discussion, the individual will grow exhausted - trying to defend their obtuse and arrogant position. In plain words - Let them have it vocally - with both barrels, right between their brain hemispheres.

This method will reawaken and fortify the chemicals in your brain which have been weakened by years of oppressive and counterproductive actions which have been deployed by others, who have mastered the art of deceptive and manipulative practices. In plain words: "I am mad as Hell, and I am not going to take it any more! Deal with it, you SOB - Pain In My Anal Canal! You are a huge Hemorrhoid in my Life, and I am no longer going to constipate my brain! Consider yourself Surgically Removed, and Fiberized!"

It took me many years to reach down and activate the "guts" to tell a person off. However, an euphoric wave of satisfaction drenched my brain, and replenished the inventory of chemicals which had been on back-order.

Yeah, PublishAmerica! Don't Piss Me Off! Ban me, silence me, ignore me. However, please be advised that I have limits. I have drawn a line in the sand, and with gusto - I will defend and protect my right to continually expose your underhanded and unscrupulous business practices. Think twice about crossing the line, "for I have not yet begun to fight!" I am an American. "Do not Tread On Me!" Do I make myself CLEAR?!

See? Words - Their inflections and meanings are the only weapons needed to inflict emotional damage and facilitate your resolve. Practice makes perfect. Practice, Practice, Practice. It gets easier with each interaction and "Tell Off!"

Argile Stox

[astonwest]

I hope most of us realize that he in fact had another book out through PA which had the same "price fix" in...

Here it is. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893162273/qid=1117744812/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8721919-5476820?v=glance&s=books)

There was a second one, but not sure if it was just the translated version of this one or not...

I'd be interested to see what kind of discounts a bookstore would get on these bad boys (especially the new one)...and whether there happens to be a return policy involved.

It will totally blow me away if Meiners gets away with this. I can easily imagine PA authors getting extremely upset over this when the prices of their books are twice as high for roughly 2/3 the pages.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sean, very interesting, huh?


Yeah, it is interesting. Curiosity strikes if this is one of PA's tired attempts to hide their scam....or if they may actually be turning over a new leaf like many of us have been hoping they would?

I couldn't say either way.

[underthecity]

It looks like Meiners' book bumped Jamie Farr off the page. Poor Jamie. . . .

On the surface, the book appears to be nothing but a 327 page advertisement for PA. I'd love to see some discussion about this book, and its price and page count, on the PAMB.

I would also love it if Mr. MacDonald did a line by line of the info PA's page about it, which is seen here (http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story/index.asp).

Will Meiners be expected to promote it and stock it in Frederickburg's bookstores? Will B&N even want it? Why would anyone want to buy and/or read this book? I certainly wouldn't. Also, the book isn't currently listed on amazon. And it certainly won't be stocked in bookstores sea to shining sea. What a horrible example to set for the company's authors.

Such is life in the Kingdom of POZ.

I realize that here at AW we respect our fellow authors. Does Meiners count?

underthecity

[Literary Lola]

[QUOTE=Julianne]New on the PublishAmerica home page:

How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz:
PublishAmerica: The Inside Story of an Underdog With a Bite

Read the story of an underdog publishing company that set out to introduce the entire book publishing business to the twenty-first century. Nothing more, nothing less.

By Willem Meiners
327 pages, $9.95/QUOTE]

WTF? Why isn't his friggin' book $35 like everybody else's? My, my, scammer's privileges, eh? I think it would make a nice liner for my bird's cage. "Here, Tweetie, Tweetie, crap on this."

[Julianne]

Sean, I think PA is seeing a drop in business and that this book is a way to get more authors in the door, as well as hang on to those they already have. Just my guess.

[falconesse]

I have to wonder how many PA authors are going to buy Miners' book - yet another way he's making money off of his victims...

[mreddin]

I think it would be only fitting if someone should come out with the counter-story through Lulu...or better, through a major publisher (Goliath)...


Paging Travis Tea...will Dr. Travis Tea please pick up the red literary courtesy phone and report to Lulu for your sequel. :)

[astonwest]

I would also love it if Mr. MacDonald did a line by line of the info PA's page about it, which is seen here (http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story/index.asp).

If there was any further evidence needed that Meiners was writing the BS coming out of the Infocenter persona, this was it...

Sigh.

[mreddin]

>
>> Dear Mr. Dolan,
>>
>> Do not address us in such a tone. PublishAmerica did not send you any such
>> letter.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Jessica
>> Author Support Team
>> Support@PublishAmerica.com


"There are NO American tanks at Bagdad International Airport."

Mike

[Sher2]

> Jessica:
>
> You are either stupid or a damned liar. PA's letter is right here in front
> of me. How do you live with yourself telling such bald-face lies?
>
> Your letter with your e-mail will be provided to the chosen mediator as
> additional evidence that PA has lied directly to me, numerous times.
>
> Phillip R. Dolan

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Author Support" <Jessica@PublishAmerica.com (Jessica@PublishAmerica.com)>
> To: <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:57 PM
> Subject: Phil Dolan: misconceptions
>
>> Dear Mr. Dolan,
>>
>> Do not address us in such a tone. PublishAmerica did not send you any such letter.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Jessica
>> Author Support Team
>>
Good for you, Phil! Oh, my God, you just gotta love that twit Jessica. Lord love a duck and ... BFH.

[Dawno]

(major snippage)About Bookstores:

"How much of a help is a bookstore anyway these days? There are roughly fifteen thousand such stores from sea to shining sea, one bookstore for every 20,000 Americans. But only 6,000 of them have visited a bookstore in the past five years, and 14,000 have not. Only 30 percent of all people go to a bookstore now and then; 70 percent of all Americans can not remember the last time they did. And of the ones who do enter a Barnes & Noble, a Borders, or a Brentano's, 60 percent come in knowing exactly what they want. They walk in, find the book they are coming for, pay, and leave. Only 40 percent of all bookstore visitors, a meager 2400 per average bookstore, over a period of five or so years, are potential impulse buyers [...] And of all bookstores, the big chain bookstores account for only 25 percent of all book sales. Seventy-five percent of all books are sold elsewhere."


Anyone else want to see the footnotes? I'm *very* interested to know where these statistics came from.

[ZaZ]

Somebody get Stox a sedative and a smaller, less obnoxious, bold font.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I am not nor do I claim to be an authority on chemical imbalances of the brain. However, I have realized that WORDS and their inflections cause an immediate emotional responses via the activation of certain areas of the brain which are controlled by chemical deployments. Joy, Happiness, Elation, Arousal, Sorrow, Depression, etc are all chemical responses to our visual, auditory, and sensory detectors which continually scan our environment.

I have found that by being keenly aware of "triggers" which cause an inward adverse reaction to harmful stimuli, reinforces an individual's defense mechanisms. I constantly ask myself: "Okay. I am aware of my usual negative self-induced depressive reaction pattern to this or that situation. What information do I possess to counteract this knee-jerk reaction? Should I employ the "fight or flight" instantaneous primal principle or would extreme vocalization of my distress be dumped on the offending individual or organization?"

As I became accustomed to this "step-back" approach, my thought processes and reaction time has decreased by defalting to the: "I am going to tell this person or organization OFF immediately, and not dwell on it."

Okay, I hate this visual - Interaction with individuals or "face-time" is a tennis match. You must land the ball in their court very quickly. Make sure the other individual scrambles to toss the ball back into your court. Always keep the opposing individual off balance. After a short period of discussion, the individual will grow exhausted - trying to defend their obtuse and arrogant position. In plain words - Let them have it vocally - with both barrels, right between their brain hemispheres.

This method will reawaken and fortify the chemicals in your brain which have been weakened by years of oppressive and counterproductive actions which have been deployed by others, who have mastered the art of deceptive and manipulative practices. In plain words: "I am mad as Hell, and I am not going to take it any more! Deal with it, you SOB - Pain In My Anal Canal! You are a huge Hemorrhoid in my Life, and I am no longer going to constipate my brain! Consider yourself Surgically Removed, and Fiberized!"

It took me many years to reach down and activate the "guts" to tell a person off. However, an euphoric wave of satisfaction drenched my brain, and replenished the inventory of chemicals which had been on back-order.

Yeah, PublishAmerica! Don't Piss Me Off! Ban me, silence me, ignore me. However, please be advised that I have limits. I have drawn a line in the sand, and with gusto - I will defend and protect my right to continually expose your underhanded and unscrupulous business practices. Think twice about crossing the line, "for I have not yet begun to fight!" I am an American. "Do not Tread On Me!" Do I make myself CLEAR?!

See? Words - Their inflections and meanings are the only weapons needed to inflict emotional damage and facilitate your resolve. Practice makes perfect. Practice, Practice, Practice. It gets easier with each interaction and "Tell Off!"

Argile Stox



(Quote's point size has been lowered to save space as I have quoted Mr. Stox' entire post.)

I definitely see where you're coming from, Argile. And what you say makes perfect sense to me. I've noticed that a few times myself, in other such situations....if I 'tell off' someone in particular, directly to them, I do indeed get a wave of relief and it does make me feel more at ease.

Maybe emailing PA and 'telling them off' wouldn't be such a bad idea. I wouldn't use exactly the words you've used in your example, but I can see myself writing such a letter to them and saying, basically, "I'm mad as Hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore."

I think you've made a good point, Argile. Thank you.

[ZaZ]

Sweet Mary, isn't quoting the entire effin' rant a tad asinine?
Straighten up, people.
Although, I do like the reduction in font size as a way to save space.
You're almost there!

[cwgranny]

WTF? Why isn't his friggin' book $35 like everybody else's? My, my, scammer's privileges, eh?

Now, now, I am certain that what this book represents is a new page in the PA pricing system and I certainly hope that every single PA author rushes to ask when they will see their book drop to $10 or below. I am certain the head honcho is merely ushering in this new pricing system as representative of his David/Goliath leadership.

So -- y'all PA authors, rejoice and rush...get your reduction to $10 or below. Don't listen to any underling who may not realize this is now company policy -- the big guy made the change, get him to fix your book price.

Time for some hallelujah's among PA's chosen.

gran

[MadScientistMatt]

Sean, I think PA is seeing a drop in business and that this book is a way to get more authors in the door, as well as hang on to those they already have. Just my guess.

On the other hand, unless they can get this book in actual bookstores, their only market may be "11,000 happy authors..."

[Boob]

:ROFL: Zaz, you crack me up.

Actually, It`s the BBB logo that they have on the front page that is giving me indigestion.

[Dawno]

Now, now, I am certain that what this book represents is a new page in the PA pricing system and I certainly hope that every single PA author rushes to ask when they will see their book drop to $10 or below. I am certain the head honcho is merely ushering in this new pricing system as representative of his David/Goliath leadership.

So -- y'all PA authors, rejoice and rush...get your reduction to $10 or below. Don't listen to any underling who may not realize this is now company policy -- the big guy made the change, get him to fix your book price.

Time for some hallelujah's among PA's chosen.

gran

:ROFL:

Please tell me where I can buy whatever it is you were smoking when you wrote that! :D

[AnneMarble]

New on the PublishAmerica home page:

How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz:
PublishAmerica: The Inside Story of an Underdog With a Bite


It's a good thing most bookstores aren't going to be stocking that book. After all, imagine the confusion as they try to decide where to stock that book. Humor? Fantasy? Horror? Mythology? True Crime?
:wag:

[SeanDSchaffer]

I realize that here at AW we respect our fellow authors. Does Meiners count?



I've learned over the years that you can respect an individual's position without respecting their actions.

(i.e. Bill Clinton. I do not respect his actions while in office; nevertheless he was the U.S. President, and for that reason alone I show him the respect due the President of the United States.)

In Meiners' case, I respect the fact he is an author, but that is as far as my respect for him goes. He has still run a company that destroys the dreams of writers, and that action is something I shall never respect.

[Aconite]

Anyone else want to see the footnotes? I'm *very* interested to know where these statistics came from.

Besides the questionable stats, one thing that hits me in the eyeball is that this person is equating "bookstores" with "bricks-and-mortar stores that sell books." Wal-mart is not a bookstore, but people buy books there. Newsstands aren't bookstores either, strictly speaking, but people buy books there. And so on, and so on. People who don't go into "bookstores" to buy books are probably still going into physical stores to buy books.

[Ed Williams]

...PA scribed rant? Just from looking at how they have it advertised on the PA boards, here's yet another book that's being primarily marketed to PA's authors. Let's face it, most people don't know PA exists, and most people who'd buy this book would be supporters of PA. And where, pray tell, do most of the supporters of PA exist? Within their own author's ranks, of course. Curlem has now taken vanity publishing to a new level, he not only gets his own authors to buy their own books, he's now going to attempt to get his own authors to buy his book!

What an embezzle, what an ultra-maroon!

Bugs Williams

[Christine N.]

OMG! I can't believe he actually used "from sea to shining sea" IN THE BOOK.

Un-freakin-beliveable. Somebody buy this guy a thesaurus, or at least a dictionary.

[AnneMarble]

On the surface, the book appears to be nothing but a 327 page advertisement for PA.

Jim is probably thinking "Oh !@#$! I hope nobody expects me to do a line-by-line on a 327 page book!"

Don't worry, we're not expecting that. After all, you'd get carpal tunnel from typing "What a crock" and "Meiners is a poopiehead" over and over again.

[Ed Williams]

I realize that here at AW we respect our fellow authors. Does Meiners count?

underthecity...but I say toast his *** like a marshmallow if you want to! To me, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and their subsidiary whore Shemp are fair game, they're the ones who knowingly perpetrate this scam on hopeful writers everyday...

[Dawno]

Jim is probably thinking "Oh !@#$! I hope nobody expects me to do a line-by-line on a 327 page book!"

Don't worry, we're not expecting that. After all, you'd get carpal tunnel from typing "What a crock" and "Meiners is a poopiehead" over and over again.

You can create a one key shortcut macro for those phrases...as a matter of fact it would be a good idea :D

[Ed Williams]

... the pricing issue:

Check out the good doctor's book on the PA web page. Nice price to. 327 pages, I believe for $9.95. Sure wish I could have got my priced like that. Has anyone read it yet?And this one:

No I haven`t, but my book is 276 pages and $21.95.
Wish mine could be priced like that too!

~SOoTsWay to go, SOoTs...

While it lasts:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=2741

[Christine N.]

Darn, Ed, too quick for me! LOL

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Am I the only one ? I just received an offer from Publish America. A special purchase of Willem's book. Offer expires June 10th. Hurry, order today.What is
that old sixties slang? Let's be like an atom and split. Could be.

[mreddin]

Out of curiosity, do the major imprints have author web forums? (Which I imagine would be private if they exist).

M

[Dolan]

Never mind me. I was looking for the AW thread but I see that I've stumbled into the Meiners Book Club gathering.

I'll just stumble back out and look for that AW thread over that way.

[Dawno]

Am I the only one ? I just received an offer from Publish America. A special purchase of Willem's book. Offer expires June 10th. Hurry, order today.What is
that old sixties slang? Let's be like an atom and split. Could be.

Hmmm. Perhaps he needs a quick infusion of cash to finance a get-away? And maybe the 'general partners' should start to get very worried about their futures.

[Sher2]

Hmmm. Perhaps he needs a quick infusion of cash to finance a get-away? And maybe the 'general partners' should start to get very worried about their futures.
And we all know who they (the 'general partners') are. How much you want to bet it'll be a woman who takes 'em down, though? Curlem and Larry (Moe, too) just may learn that a woman will always have the last word. And if she's pissed...

[AnneMarble]

Out of curiosity, do the major imprints have author web forums? (Which I imagine would be private if they exist).

Some major publishers have forums where authors can talk to readers, readers can talk to each other, etc. For example, Harlequin has a very interactive web site with author forums, and the Avon romance authors have a long established "Avon Ladies" message board.

Publisher-specific author boards might be tricky in commercial publishing because there are a lot of things authors usually don't want to discuss with each other. I don't think you'd see a Penguin author forum with authors comparing royalty checks. It would be like peeking at the paychecks before the boss hands them out. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Read the story of an underdog publishing company that set out to introduce the entire book publishing business to the twenty-first century. Nothing more, nothing less.

And failed miserably, having only succeeded in rediscovering vanity publishing.








America buys 4.5 million books every day, 1.6 billion books per year.
That is, every single day, America buys four and half times as many books as PublishAmerica has sold in the last six years, combined, worldwide. PublishAmerica's boasted-of sales last year come to one one-hundredth of one percent of last year's book sales. And they have to nerve to say they've changed the publishing industry?

America counts only 5 percent of the world population, yet Americans purchase 35 percent of all books that are sold worldwide.
Interesting if true, but not terribly relevant.

The 5 leading publishers sell 80 percent of all books.
I think they mean the five leading conglomerates that include publishing divisions. That would include Viacom, News Corp, Bertelsmann, von Holtzbrinck, and Time/Warner. I'm not too interested in the corporate politics. The lesson you should take from this, young author, is that if you want your book to sell to readers, you should sell it yourself to one of those major publishing houses. They have a titanic need for new books.

The majority of Americans never see the inside of a bookstore; 75 percent of all books are bought elsewhere.
Of all books? All books are not meant for bookstore sales. The textbooks bought by the Texas state school system never see the inside of a bookstore either. Nor did the books that physically wind up in libraries; librarians don't go down to Barnes&Noble with a shopping cart. And so on. This is more PA smoke-and-mirrors. The plain fact is: If you, as an author of a general-interest trade paperback, want to get your book bought by a normal reader, you want to get it into a bookstore.


Until recently, less than 1 percent of all authors who had written a book were allowed free access to the masses of readers.
Perhaps this is because 99% of all the manuscripts stink on ice. One thing that won't change, no matter what the printing technology and the distribution system: Nothing can make a reader pick up a book he doesn't want to read.


PublishAmerica leveled the playing field for book writers almost overnight.


A palpable lie.

It has successfully challenged Mainstream publishing by opening the gates to Main Street authors-thousands upon thousands of them.


Yeah! A solid 0.01% of book sales! Go, them! If that's sucess I wonder what failure looks like.

And the publishing elite reacts predictably.

By ignoring them?



The book offers a unique behind-the-scenes look at PublishAmerica.
Thanks, but I'm waiting for Jim Fisher's book on PublishAmerica for that look.


It shares numerous anecdotes about, and quotes from, many PublishAmerica authors.
The testimonials! Get a copy of this book, wait a year, then contact the authors who gave the quotes. See how many of 'em still love the Frederick Three and the POD Squad.


It is illustrated with photos of our office and staff.
Including photos of Miranda? Or will they just include her mug shots?

It answers everything you always wanted to know about book publishing,
How are they going to do that? Neither Willem nor Larry know a darned thing about book publishing!


and about its real heroes: PublishAmerica's authors.
Tirelessly carrying boxes of books from flea market to beauty shop, trying to find someone, anyone, who will buy them.


It explains why PublishAmerica's success was inevitable and unstoppable.


If PA's success is inevitable and unstoppable, why haven't they succeeded?


It describes how the book publishing business will never be the same.
Quite right -- it never will be. It's never been the same from day to day for the last century. But Willem and Larry wouldn't know about that.


Written by PublishAmerica CEO Willem Meiners,



So we're looking at an ESL Extravaganza ...
with an introduction by company president Larry Clopper,



A man who, when no one else is present, lies to himself just to keep in practice.
How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz tells the story of the most captivating pioneers in today's traditional publishing industry,



Dick Simon, Max Schuster, Ian Ballantine, and Bennet Cerf!



and their victorious legions of authors:

The inside story of PublishAmerica.


Oh, you mean PA? The victorious legion of authors who are trying to figure out how to victoriously pay the credit card bill for victoriously buying their own books?

AND ALSO FROM THE SAME PAGE (QUOTE FROM THE BOOK):

About Bookstores:

"How much of a help is a bookstore anyway these days?



The very best place to sell books to the general public. That's why publishers do everything they can to get their books stocked in 'em, and why PublishAmerica authors beg and plead to be allowed to put their books there on consignment.





There are roughly fifteen thousand such stores from sea to shining sea,


Not strictly true. There are around 8,000 bookstores and another 7,000 stores that also sell books.



one bookstore for every 20,000 Americans. But only 6,000 of them have visited a bookstore in the past five years, and 14,000 have not.
Shoot! I hadn't realized that Wal*Mart had that few customers! Yet from Willem's own figures he must be including Wal*Mart in the total.




Only 30 percent of all people go to a bookstore now and then; 70 percent of all Americans can not remember the last time they did.



So? They still sell 1.6 billion books a year, if Willem is to be believed.

And of the ones who do enter a Barnes & Noble, a Borders, or a Brentano's, 60 percent come in knowing exactly what they want. They walk in, find the book they are coming for, pay, and leave.


You realize that includes first books from new authors, don't you?



Only 40 percent of all bookstore visitors, a meager 2400 per average bookstore, over a period of five or so years, are potential impulse buyers [...]



Or, using Willem's own figures, 36,000,000 people per year.



And of all bookstores, the big chain bookstores account for only 25 percent of all book sales. Seventy-five percent of all books are sold elsewhere."


Sure. When you look beyond the big chain bookstores you find the small chain stores and independents.


AND ALSO FROM THE SAME PAGE (QUOTE FROM THE BOOK):

About Change:

"History has always known elites, and it has always dealt with them in only one way: they disappeared, and always under the pressure of irresistable change.


Which is why you see so many major-league ball players on the unemployment lines, forced out by the sandlot sluggers who outnumber them a thousand to one.



Historically, all elites have been replaced by majority rule, and where this has not happened yet, it will over time, inevitably.



People who have the ability to tell entertaining stories aren't a dime a dozen, Willem.


As soon as an excluded majority senses that empowerment is within reach, they will grab it.


And they'll pay for it, too. That's Willem the Psychologist talking.



Authors who have always been refused and denied the opportunity to see their book in print unless they paid for it now have an equal opportunity to be in the exact same league as the elite,



What, they'll suddenly and magically learn to write? (And the folks who go with PA still wind up paying for it. Ask 'em how many copies of their own books they bought, okay?)



and they will, by their sheer number, bring an end to the elite's existence."


I am so not worried.

AND ALSO FROM THE SAME PAGE (QUOTE FROM THE BOOK):

About Motivation:

"I was born just blocks from where Anne Frank hid, where she was betrayed and arrested, and from where she was deported to die in a Nazi death camp. She was not allowed to breathe, to speak, to write.



I smell a Godwin's Law violation coming up.


When you read her diary



Hey, Willem, I thought she wasn't allowed to write. What was it you read?


and you see her describe the houses and the streets that were your own childhood's setting, when you learn from your parents that this was in fact the real girl next door, believe me, it gets your attention. It makes you want to fight for equal rights for everyone."


And that made you want to scam them? Why?

[Trapped in amber]

If this book is aimed at PA authors, I doubt it will sell. If it's aimed at the general public, it's not going to sell.

It's weird; he clearly hasn't given up on his own dreams, and yet destroys those of others. But if this book succeeds in doing anything, it will be in making PA authors question their book prices, as is already happening.

But, if this is on the PA front page, perhaps prospective PA authors will assume this is the typical price of a PA book?

[James D. Macdonald]

Publisher-specific author boards might be tricky in commercial publishing because there are a lot of things authors usually don't want to discuss with each other.

There's always Baen's Bar.

But authors don't usually gather by publisher -- they gather by genre. I know that SFWA's messageboards are very active. And yes, they do discuss advances and royalties.

[Dawno]

It makes you want to fight for equal rights for everyone.

Ah, so he *is* going to lower the prices of all his authors' books! Equal rights, right?

:crazy:

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sweet Mary, isn't quoting the entire effin' rant a tad asinine?
Straighten up, people.
Although, I do like the reduction in font size as a way to save space.
You're almost there!


I know quoting the entire post may have been overkill, but honestly I couldn't figure out where to snip and where not to snip. So I just quoted the entire thing.

My apologies if it made my post too long.

[Liam Jackson]

Praise the great maker JMS, that is a season 4 slogan and the episode of Babylon 5 where Commander Sheridan declares war on Earth and begins the liberation of the colonies from the forces of President Clark and "Nightwatch".

Mike
It's an old military mantra and the title of a 1980s series of chop-sockey flicks. Seems appropriate for this cause, eh?

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

http://www.publishamerica.com/PressRoom/images/1413724965.jpg
Argile Stox

"Computer-End Program" (June 2004)

The comments below were prior to my "wakening." I just can not believe :mad: after all I have said and done, that PublishAmerica would have the gall to throw my words back in my face. Now, I am PISSED! They even placed Tracy Sutterer's book back on the Profiles page. Talk about adding insult to injury!!!
On what he's learned as a PublishAmerica author: PublishAmerica has given me a "Masters" level education regarding editing, book cover design, self-marketing, and the publishing industry in general. They'll act as your "coach" and give you the priceless experience of getting into the "down and dirty" discipline of editing your book. The adventure you'll embark upon will enlighten and hone your newly discovered talents as a writer.

Yeah, I received a "Masters Level Education" from the School Of Hard Knocks! The "Adventure" is tantamount to walking in a field of Poison Ivy and having a bad case of diarrhea.

On book sales: Each royalty check you receive is a complement and a validation of your hard work. Remember that someone you don't know actually paid cold, hard cash to purchase your book - and took a chance on reading an unknown author's work!

My Memoir has been "out" for about one year and I have recieved three royalty checks. The "Complements" amounted to about $20.

Geez! It would be great if I could "unring" the bells above! :mad:

:Jaw:
Okay, everyone! Go ahead and disparage me, I deserve it! I can take it. Get it out of your system.... :flag:

Argile Stox

[cwgranny]

If PA's success is inevitable and unstoppable, why haven't they succeeded?

But dear, they have succeeded. They have separated all those nice authors from their money -- that's all they set out to do and they succeeded...well, except for the nasty group of over 1000 folks who refused to buy any books and thus didn't sell a single one. Bastids.

gran

[reph]

Willem must have enjoyed the same expert editing that other PAuthors get. That service doesn't include uniform treatment of numbers ("fifteen thousand"..."14,000"..."the 5 leading publishers") or correct spelling of "cannot" and "irresistible."

Or maybe he went for the no-edit option, fearful that some elitist editor would thwart his self-expression.

Well, PA has given his book the chance it deserves. Now let's see how many copies he places in bookstores. Won't he be surprised when Barnes & Noble managers tell him "We don't take those – it's corporate policy"!

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

Pack your bags, Shemp. We leave tonight. Don't forget my pink tutu.

[clintl]

Well, PA has given his book the chance it deserves. Now let's see how many copies he places in bookstores. Won't he be surprised when Barnes & Noble managers tell him "We don't take those – it's corporate policy"!

Why would he want his book stocked in bookstores? According to him, they're a terrible place to sell books.

[Dawno]

If all the new authors still in honeymoon phase buy his book (not that I think they will) and he gets to pocket the profits how much you think he thinks he'll make? Must be behind on his Lexus payments.

[Dolan]

I wanted to put this back where I deleted it but I can't, sorry.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Dolan" <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
To: "PublishAmerica Author Support" <Jessica@PublishAmerica.com (Jessica@PublishAmerica.com)>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Phil Dolan: misconceptions

> Jessica:
>
> You are either stupid or a damned liar. PA's letter is right here in front
> to me. How do you live with yourself telling such bald face lies?
>
> Your letter with your e-mail will be provided to the chosen mediator as
> additional evidence that PA has lied directly to me, numerous times.
>
> Phillip R. Dolan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Author Support" <Jessica@PublishAmerica.com (Jessica@PublishAmerica.com)>
> To: <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:57 PM
> Subject: Phil Dolan: misconceptions
>
>
>> Dear Mr. Dolan,
>>
>> Do not address us in such a tone. PublishAmerica did not send you any such letter.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Jessica
>> Author Support Team
>> Support@PublishAmerica.com (Support@PublishAmerica.com)
>>
>>
>>> >From: "Phil Dolan" <pdolan@kc.rr.com (pdolan@kc.rr.com)>
>>> >To: <support@publishamerica.com (support@publishamerica.com)>
>>> >Subject: Arbitration
>>> >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500
>>> >
>>> >You should know by now, since you have been receiving copies of letters
>>> from me to the American Arbitration Association that I'm taking PA to
>>> arbitration. Whether you know or not is none of my concern because I'm
>>> getting my contract terminated, even if PA doesn't show up at the
>>> hearing.
>>> >
>>> >You sent me a letter that I received today that makes no sense at all.
>>> >
>>> >"Dear Mr. Dolan:
>>> >I received your letter today concerning the arbitration
>>> clause. However, no copy of the contract or check was enclosed with the
>>> letter. Please forward the enclosures to us at your earliest
>>> convienience.
>>> >Have a great day."
>>> >
>>> >There was no signature.
>>> >
>>> >You have the original contract. Why should I send you a copy? That is
>>> a stupid request and I'll not be sending a copy.
>>> >
>>> >My check sent to AAA is none of your concern and you won't be receiving
>>> a copy of that either.
>>> >
>>> >Good grief! Read you own contract if you want to know what is going on.
>>> >
>>> >Phillip R. Dolan
>>> >
>>> >P. S. Remember this when you send me a snotty reply: Your reply becomes
>>> a part of the arbitration documentation.
>>
>>
>>
>

[mreddin]

Why would he want his book stocked in bookstores? According to him, they're a terrible place to sell books.

Will the majority of revenue derived from the book come from his own purchases direct from PA like most other PA authors do?

[Ed Williams]

Why would he want his book stocked in bookstores? According to him, they're a terrible place to sell books.....and brag on it, I damn near spit out a mouthful of Diet Mountain Dew on account of it, nice job!

[mreddin]

His production cost from Lighning source is $6.19 per book sent directly to PA for sales. So ordering at the current discount on their website yields a $3.76 profit per book not including plant costs. If PA is still launching an average of 500 titles monthly, and they aggressively market to these new authors, then it is reasonable to presume he could yield $2,500 a month net revenue. The question really boils down to the sell through rate and how neophyte authors will get sucked into buying.

Mike

[Jeff]

It occurs to me that the first ex-PA author who actually does become wildly popular and successful in mainstream publishing might well be claimed by PA as a "sucess" and crowed over on their main page like Jaime Farr. Of course, a moments reflection on the situation would make clear that the author had to leave PA to become successful, but I do not put it past them to claim credit for giving the author their "start".

Therefore, I suggest that however many ex-PA'ers become wildly successful they might want to consider one day giving "credit" to PA in their author dedication.

Thus:

"I dedicate this book to Publish America, who printed two copies of my first book and thus tried to convince me that it was published."

or

"I dedicate this book to Publish America for proving to me that there are crooks and con men in every business but few as blatant as in publishing"

or

"I dedicate this book to Publish America because I was able to do what their top executives never could: be traditionally published based on the merits of my work."

or, simply

"I dedicate this book to (current publisher) for not being Publish America."

Any others?

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay. 327 pages. That costs $5.151 to print. They're charging $9.95 for a copy. Let's say it wasn't edited at all (because which of those college girls would have the chops to edit the Big Man?). The cover looks like Willem did it with fingerpaint -- it's not up to even PA's usual standard of cut-n-paste Photoshopped clipart. So ... every sale is going to be pure profit on the order of $4.80.

PublishAmerica has 9,441 books that came out before May of this year, they have 12,000 happy authors, so that means they have 2,559 authors in the honeymoon period. (At current rates of production, that's a bit under four months' supply....)

Let's say that half the honeymooners buy a copy of Big Bill's book. That's a pure $12,000 straight into his pocket. (I don't know what kind of royalty arrangements he's negotiated for himself, but I bet 8% of net isn't it.)

So yeah, that'll make a few car payments, but it won't let him live the rest of his life on the beach at Rio.

-------------------

UPDATE:

A PA author posts:
I was happy to see that book and I ordered it right away. I want to know more about our publisher and it looks like this book will give me that. Thank you PA.

Ka-ching!

If you want to know more about your publisher you can look over here. Won't cost you any $9.95, either.

[Ed Williams]

...to the Better Business Bureau about the seal they're allowing to be affixed to PA's index page, you can do so by clicking right here:

http://complaints.bbb.org/welcome2.asp

P.S. Charlotte, I'm telling ya, I hear all kinds of things happen to ya when you wear a pink tu-tu, be careful, be careful....

:kiss:

[Trapped in amber]

>>> >
>>> >P. S. Remember this when you send me a snotty reply: Your reply becomes
>>> a part of the arbitration documentation.
>>
>>
>>
>

You're taking PA to arbitration? I think you may be the first, I wish you every success.:)
They can't find a copy of your contract? Sounds to me like they're trying to create delays in the process.
I think it's fantastic the correspondence/abuse PA sends out will be part of what the mediators see. To me, it's one of the most revealing traits of PA.

[Memphis Ed]

"Who were those authors, and who are they in general? Years after we signed up our first three hundred, we have a pretty sharp picture of them; we know what they want, think, hope, believe, fear.

Where are these authors today? Anybody know any of them?

[Banned-Aide]

I was one of the original 300. They don't know crappola about me, my book, my life, or anything else.

The only time I hear from PA is when they are offering a special to buy my own books. I'm sure I will hear from them now that they are hawking Willie's book.

BA

[astonwest]

Don't forget the extra $3 for shipping...

Okay. 327 pages. That costs $5.151 to print. They're charging $9.95 for a copy...

[James D. Macdonald]

As I look at Amazon, it appears that it took them to March, 2001, to get up to 300 authors.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Got an email with all the poop from the website today PLUS this little gem (notice the 'retail price':

quote

You may now order your own copy of the PublishAmerica inside story, at the special pre-release discount price of $9.95 (retail price: $24.95), here: http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story (http://www.publishamerica.com/inside_story).

But there is more! To celebrate your successes, we are offering bookstores a special discount deal that we also extend to any individual who needs books on hand: This offer covers all of our titles except full-color picture books:

*between 25-50 books: 40 pct discount
*between 51-100 books: 45 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!
*between 101-200 books: 50 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!
*201 or more books: 55 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz for free!

The offer expires June 10.

/quote

There's the 'Special Offer' we're all looking for!!! :)

Ol' Girl

[astonwest]

And even better...
I just looked at my inbox, and saw my "purchase now" e-mail from PA.


>But there is more! To celebrate your successes, we are offering bookstores
>a special discount deal that we also extend to any individual who needs >books on hand: This offer covers all of our titles except full-color
>picture books:
>
> *between 25-50 books: 40 pct discount
> *between 51-100 books: 45 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a
> Goliath Book Biz for free!
> *between 101-200 books: 50 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a
> Goliath Book Biz for free!
> *201 or more books: 55 pct discount + a copy of How to Upset a
> Goliath Book Biz for free!
>
>The offer expires June 10. Orders by phone only, at 301-695-1707.

So, quick, quick, everyone...buy a lot of your own books, and you'll get a free copy of this wonderful masterpiece...but hurry, you only have a week...

It's good to know some things never change...

Although I did think that the "offering bookstores" deal was a nice touch...make it a little less obvious that the only people who will take them up on this "special" are authors...

Will anyone be able to convince a bookstore to stock 101 copies of their book? or even 25?
:Ssh:

[mreddin]

The offer expires June 10. Orders by phone only, at 301-695-1707.

I'm surprised this isn't a 1-900 number. ;)

between 25-50 books: 40 pct discount

This just does not happen unless the publisher indicates to the bookstores that the title is expected to be a best seller. Otherwise 1 to 3 copies is probably more typical of a bookstore order for any imprint! Most stores are trying to use JIT (Just in time) inventory management, so buying so many copies when most wholesalers can deliver titles the next day is foolishness. Now some publishers offer incentives like free shipping if a number of units is ordered, typically you could order 30 units of 20 different titles from the publisher and still qualify.

Mike

[James D. Macdonald]

Is that the complete text of the hurry-hurry-hurry buy now high-pressure sales letter?

Is there any possible doubt that PA makes its money selling books to their own authors?

Remember friends, take the pledge:

I solemnly swear or affirm that, since my publisher is not a vanity or subsidy publisher and has nothing in common with them, I will never give PublishAmerica my credit card number or write their name on the "pay to" line of a check or money order.

[Ed Williams]

...think about it, Meiners' ego is so big that he honestly thinks throwing a copy of his vanity published rant into the deal will get PA authors to buy more copies of their own books. These PA people are shameless, to call them book selling whores is an insult to all the whores of America...

[Charlotte M. Leslie]

The Four Whoresman of Frederick.. Sounds like a best seller ,huh?

[Literary Lola]

It's a good thing most bookstores aren't going to be stocking that book. After all, imagine the confusion as they try to decide where to stock that book. Humor? Fantasy? Horror? Mythology? True Crime?
:wag:

By jove, I think you've hit it squarely on the spell check. Meiners suffers from genre envy. Calling Dr. Fraud...

[Literary Lola]

I was happy to see that book and I ordered it right away. I want to know more about our publisher and it looks like this book will give me that. Thank you PA.

I ordered it as well. The list price is actually $24.95, like other books with that kind of a page count. The 9.95 seems to be the special discount for us authors which I think is very generous.
Thanks PA!

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=2741

These people are actually THANKING Wee Willy Winkie!! My God, pass these dear folk some Koolaid antivenin. Generous? Gee, how come they don't offer special discounts on everyone's books? This is simply gagaliscious. Insert yaking icon here.

[Ken Schneider]

Re: Wilhelm's book.

Just more Nazi Propaganda. Wilhelm, I'm sure, learned well from goose stepping bricks on a WWII street corner where he ratted Ann Frank out to save his own skin!

[writerjenn]

I'm sick and tired of getting 'author support' emails that are no more than enticements to buy my own book. Those scum lappin' shitedogs can kiss my rosy red arse before I'll put out another penny in their direction.

When they refused my request for contract release, I asked them to lose my email address, but I guess even that was too much to hope for.

Jenn
(Okay, rant is over, I feel better now)

[Literary Lola]

Reading Wee Willy's excerpts makes me wonder where the violins are. I can almost see the heavens parting while the angels sing. And looky, there's God reaching down with his tender yet mighty hand and...squeezing the crap out of Willy's fat neck.

[Ken Schneider]

I hope I get that e-mail to purchase books.

I'm collecting them since I've told them I consider their correspondence harassment.

They must be trying to dupe the folks for plane tickets to the island, warm weather and vacation season you know.