Archive of the NEPAT [Archive] - Page 79 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Diana Hignutt

05-03-2005, 02:17 PM

Sorry, couldn't be helped.

Why do PA authors persist in calling us "bashers" at this point? Don't our words have the ring of truth to them? Or better yet, if what we are saying here isn't true, surely they would be dragging us to court to make us stop? Think about it. We aren't bashers. PA is bashing its authors with lies. We're simply providing the truth.

And, frankly, to praise PA on their messageboard is to be complicit in their scam (a crime I was guilty of at one time-before I figured it out). If you have doubts about PublishAmerica, how can you go on singing their praises? How can you get a royaly check for $6.92 and be a proud PA author? Don't you see that PA is using you to gain more victims, to ruin more careers? PA Boosters aren't just defending their publisher, they're helping them swindle people. You can call me a basher all you want, but at the end of the day, which of us is doing the right thing?

And as bad as the PA boosters are, their employees are everybit as guilty as the owners. If you don't know for sure that PA is a scam, okay. But at some point, don't you have to come to that understanding? Once you suspect them of wrongdoing, how can you work for them? How can you support them? To do so, is to do the work of evil. Don't you PA boosters and PA employees see that? Get out of there now, before the whole thing takes you all to H*ll.

PublishAmerica is evil. That's why we fight it. Call us what you will, but we are making a difference. I am proud to be here, a part of this fight.

Diana (feeling a tad melodramatic this morning)

lindylou45

05-03-2005, 02:43 PM

Most people that sign in here already have an idea about the truth about PA. Most others are too scared to join in on the discussion for those kind of reasons.

It would be difficult to believe that anyone wouldn't have some idea as to the truth about PA with all the negative publicity lately. Those that stay with PA have their reasons, I suppose.

I understand what Lola is saying and have to agree to a certain extent. Anyone who wants to come here is welcome, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to respond to them with this "so glad you're here" mentality.

lindylou45

05-03-2005, 02:49 PM

Jeez, I don't feel so welcome here anymore.

To my knowledge, you are the only one who publicly apologized for your trasgressions. We have all forgiven you and you have become a powerful warrior in the fight for truth and justice. We're all glad you're here and you did such a great job on Memphis Ed's show Sunday!

lizziepants

05-03-2005, 02:53 PM

y'all behave while i'm gone to tulsa. back next week. if anything amazing happens.. phone me or beam me the thread, heh.

lindylou45

05-03-2005, 03:22 PM

You have got to check this out. I swear, it's so similar to PA's way of doing things. The difference is that this is for fun (I think), and PA's is supposed to be serious!

Here's a sample from their site: www.huhcorp.com/ (http://www.huhcorp.com/)
[i]

Sounds like this could be the web consulting business Larry Clopper had before he started PA. :ROFL:

astonwest

05-03-2005, 03:48 PM

Something interesting...for when PA supporters bemoan the fact that bookstore managers won't stock their books:

Two separate managers I have experience with are big supporters of local authors, and so have this urge to stock their books. Thus, they usually had a tendency to order in copies of these books (including PA books).

One of these managers recently 'decided to move on' (read between the lines--when I pressed the store employee who responded this way, she said "I was trying to be nice") and was replaced by another manager.

The other manager apparently lost her job when the store she was working in was closed down.

Generally speaking, people don't lose their jobs and/or stores don't close down unless they're losing money. So, it's not a big leap to realize that stocking copies of books that won't sell is a way to do this...

I'm not sure where in the world the copies of my books that were in that second store ended up...hmmmm...

J.S. Blue

05-03-2005, 03:58 PM

...but has anyone else noticed a couple of things going on at the PA boards?

"That idiot" that we don't mention is STILL there spouting his propaganda and justifications and BEGGING for attention. (Sorry, his spouts about having his foot in the door, movie deals and T.V. deals is all business as usual- he talks a LOT, but never ever has anything to back it up other than his own failing memory that lets him forget all the bull shiznot he tells people.)

A couple of questions then-

1.) I thought he relieved us of himself to go hide in a bottle or a hole in the wall somewhere so the big bad people wouldn't get to him or his family anymore?

2.) Why does "that idiot" that we don't mention think he is SOOOO important that anyone would want to harm him or his family? People (even crazy ones) don't go around making death threats to people because they are idiots.

He's just making himself look stupid AGAIN by being on there, all the while saying he had to die so he could be free from the bashers.

I almost wish I could be there when someone askes him why PA is still in business next year when he said they could not stand without him......but I really hope something comes from all this and PA has gone by the wayside for other reasons way before that time.

Ever notice that PA and "that idiot" are seemingly made for each other? They both can't seem to get enough of a bad thing.

Sher2

05-03-2005, 04:00 PM

Just in case anyone is curious.

http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?catalogid=9085
If it were a real book, about to show up on bookstore shelves, I'd say they were opening themselves up to a world of trouble. As it is, since nobody will ever see it but the author and the people on his "list," chances are it won't be noticed unless someone puts a bug in the ear of the real "Venus, Mars..." folks.

J.S. Blue

05-03-2005, 04:01 PM

...but has anyone else noticed a couple of things going on at the PA boards?

"That idiot" that we don't mention is STILL there spouting his propaganda and justifications and BEGGING for attention. (Sorry, his spouts about having his foot in the door, movie deals and T.V. deals is all business as usual- he talks a LOT, but never ever has anything to back it up other than his own failing memory that lets him forget all the bull shiznot he tells people.)

A couple of questions then-

1.) I thought he relieved us of himself to go hide in a bottle or a hole in the wall somewhere so the big bad people wouldn't get to him or his family anymore?

2.) Why does "that idiot" that we don't mention think he is SOOOO important that anyone would want to harm him or his family? People (even crazy ones) don't go around making death threats to people because they are idiots.

He's just making himself look stupid AGAIN by being on there, all the while saying he had to die so he could be free from the bashers.

I almost wish I could be there when someone asks him why PA is still in business next year when he said they could not stand without him......but I really hope something comes from all this and PA has gone by the wayside for other reasons way before that time.

Ever notice that PA and "that idiot" are seemingly made for each other? They both can't seem to get enough of a bad thing.

J.S. Blue

05-03-2005, 04:05 PM

Wow,

That seemed pretty harsh!

Jenna, Victoria, others- Have you personally gotten any death threats? If so, I won't ask why YOU didn't go run off and hide, but will commend you for staying the course and not using it as an excuse to run/fail.

Still, I stand by my post.

Joe

DaveKuzminski

05-03-2005, 04:44 PM

I haven't received any death threats because of my P&E activities.

I have received emails warning me that they'd take me to court, but not one of those has ever done so in the almost nine years that P&E has been in operation. I suspect that is because I have tried conscientiously to accurately adhere to the truth and posted corrections in the few instances where my information was wrong. PublishAmerica is one of those businesses that threatened to take P&E to court, yet that hasn't materialized and P&E has not backed down from its position regarding PA, either. Instead, we have posted stronger warnings as those became warranted.

Regarding the recent book title mentioned above, I hope someone knows who to contact regarding that trademark since PA appears to once more be abusing the law regarding intellectual property.

Jeff

05-03-2005, 04:55 PM

Regarding the recent book title mentioned above, I hope someone knows who to contact regarding that trademark since PA appears to once more be abusing the law regarding intellectual property.

http://www.marsvenus.com/InquiryForm.php

That link might work, if enough people mention it, the owners might be interested in checking it out.

Just a thought.

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2005, 04:57 PM

"Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" is a live trademark for a series of non-fiction and fiction books on the subjects of music and general adult interest, photographs, posters, and greeting cards. Serial number 76541202 held by Gene Simmons Company, 77 Irma Avenue, Port Washington, New York 11050. Their attorney of record is William H. Cox.

Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus is published by HarperCollins, which has a full-fledged legal department of their own. HarperCollins Publishers, 10 East 53 Street, New York, NY 10022

I'm certain they'd all love a copy of the book.

Jeff

05-03-2005, 05:04 PM

Well, that tears it, then. "Lord of the Rings and Earrings" is going into the trunk.

*sigh* :Shrug:

realitychuck

05-03-2005, 05:12 PM

Why do PA authors persist in calling us "bashers" at this point? Don't our words have the ring of truth to them?Alas, the words do not. They have achieved their dream. PA has made it so. It will take a lot more than what we say to change their mind.

We're certainly presenting the facts, loud and clear. But few PA authors are following this thread.

In addition, it's that old rule of writing: show, don't tell. We're telling them about the reality of the situation. But until they are shown the truth -- by a royalty statement, or when the find they can't get anything into bookstores -- then they start to believe it.

As Jim often points out, the people who love PA are mostly those whose book hasn't come out and nearly all the rest are those who haven't gotten a royalty statement. In a way, it's fun to go through that time until release, and maybe that joy is worth it to them. But then reality hits them like a dump truck.

I don't think there's any way to convince a PA author of the truth until after the books come out. Their experience up to that point seems to be supporting what PA has to say. So they're willing to repeat PA's propaganda as truth.

What I would say to them is: can you find any independent sources to back PA's claims? We can give you many sources for our claims, but can you find any other than PA's web page or PR that backs their claims?

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2005, 05:19 PM

They have achieved their dream. PA has made it so. It will take a lot more than what we say to change their mind.

That's why my goal is to keep people from becoming PublishAmerica (http://www.webspawner.com/users/truthaboutpa/index.html) authors to start with.

You might tell a young lady that a guy who's courting her is an alcoholic wife abuser with a string of restraining orders and divorces a mile long before she goes out with him, and that may well have an effect. But don't try telling her that on her honeymoon. She won't listen.

M. Story

05-03-2005, 05:52 PM

I don't think there's any way to convince a PA author of the truth until after the books come out. Their experience up to that point seems to be supporting what PA has to say. So they're willing to repeat PA's propaganda as truth. ....
What you say is absolutely true! In my case, I bought into the PA propaganda because I didn't stray far from the PAMB, so how was I going to hear the truth?

I'd read certain posts about "bashers" and newspaper articles against PA, but rarely read them. Once I did go so far as to follow a link after a post mentioned Kevin & Jenna's names. I was familiar with Kevin's posts, so I thought I'd check it out. PA Posters made it seem like they were just being hateful and were using PA authors to gain their trust so they could get something against PA. I stayed out of the fight, but made a mental note that Jenna & Kev were people who had their own agendas in furthering their careers and were willing to step on toes to get there. I did not know any better at the time. (Sorry...):o

As the book publishing process went on, there were more and more things that common sense told me were wrong about PA. I blew them off with "no company is perfect," and chose to stay "loyal" even though I found out later that they were not worthy of loyalty. They had definitely not earned it.

As I read & experienced more and more negative things myself with PA, I finally wised up. It took about a year after my contract was signed for me to realize that a Pollyanna attitude with PA was not going to work. There is thinking positively and being loyal to your publisher, but when you find they are doing more harm than good to authors, it's time to pack your bags and head for the nearest exit. Just before I was banned from the boards, I followed a thread that mentioned A.W., and that's how I came here and found posts that confirmed my suspicions about PA.

Those who remain there even though they know the truth about PA really mystify me. They get their nourishment of junk food through an umbilical cord attached to PA's MB. I can't figure it out, especially when you can't choose your family, but you CAN choose your friends. Those who would not pass out lifejackets to the crew of a sinking ship when they know it's going down are the ones who would most likely head for the lifeboats first, stating it's every man for himself. They're not really your friends, and in time I'm sure you'll find that out.

Lurkers from PA, A.W. people have legitimate complaints against your so-called publisher. They are not out to further their own careers, many already HAVE careers. They want to help you, and they are not making things up, but have facts that show that PA is a poopy POD publisher. Wake up & smell the coffee! It is not what they led you to believe it was...

Aconite

05-03-2005, 05:57 PM

(snipped) the concern over a handful of people picking the reading material for all of us is what is upsetting...

The booster quoted here is using some confused logic, to wit:
1) PA is a quality operation because they won't publish "just anything"
2) Screening books for quality is bad

(I, personally, am deeply indebted to those who plow through slush so I don't have to. Thank you.)

zizban

05-03-2005, 06:02 PM

If it were a real book, about to show up on bookstore shelves, I'd say they were opening themselves up to a world of trouble. As it is, since nobody will ever see it but the author and the people on his "list," chances are it won't be noticed unless someone puts a bug in the ear of the real "Venus, Mars..." folks.

Wow, that's astonishing. Oh and it's 62 pages long.

DaveKuzminski

05-03-2005, 06:13 PM

Wow, that's astonishing. Oh and it's 62 pages long.

I wonder what the chances are that it quotes anything from the original book without having gained permission first?

underthecity

05-03-2005, 06:20 PM

Regarding the recent book title mentioned above, I hope someone knows who to contact regarding that trademark since PA appears to once more be abusing the law regarding intellectual property.
If this book had been pitched to a legitimate publisher with the title referenced above, and said publisher was interested in publishing it, what would have been their reaction to the proposed title?

utc

Sher2

05-03-2005, 06:22 PM

Wow, that's astonishing. Oh and it's 62 pages long.
62 pages would be what, a novella?

Along with Dave, I also wonder whether any unauthorized quotes or other material was included, and thanks to Uncle Jim for the "bug" info.;)

Sparhawk

05-03-2005, 06:38 PM

62 pages would be what, a novella?

Along with Dave, I also wonder whether any unauthorized quotes or other material was included, and thanks to Uncle Jim for the "bug" info.;)

The Bottom Line.. PA will and does Publish Anything.

On a happier note.. IT was Xmas at Sparhawks house yesterday; My Banned T Shirt and Ed's book both arrived at the same time. My daughter liberated the T-shirt and wore it to school today (didn't even get to try it on!) Many thanks to Jenna for the shirt (I'll reclaim it as soon as I get home).

On a happier note and I apologize for straying off topic briefly. Ed's book is hysterical. His writing is such that he actually pulls you into the tales and makes the reader feel like a part of the action; simply awesome. I read it in three hours last night and was literally in tears at points from laughing so hard. I will be ordering his first one.

Back on topic:

It really is heartbreaking about what happens over there, but more and more people at the "Authors Only" lounge get the sense that all is not as it appears in Pozville. There is dissension in the ranks and even some of the newbies are smelling the wafting scent of raw sewerage that is PA.

TO Jenna, Jim, Kevin, Ed, An and everyone else who is working so feverishly behind the scenes, let me thank you on behalf of all of the duped over there. Sometimes you can lead a Horse to water but you cannot make it drink. I had my eyes opened and I firmly beleive that many more will in the days and weeks to come. I am grateful and blessed to have found a home here and have made so many new friends.

victoriastrauss

05-03-2005, 06:51 PM

On the for-pay Kirkus reviews:

They only appear on-line. They aren't in the paper version of Kirkus that goes to libraries and bookstores. In short, for authors, they're useless.But it's my impression Kirkus uses the same (or equally qualified, whatever that means) reviewers for this program as in the print magazine. So that's the sad part: the book sounds like it's pretty good, and maybe with a bit more time and struggle might have had a chance with a real publisher.

- Victoria

Gravity

05-03-2005, 06:53 PM

And, frankly, to praise PA on their messageboard is to be complicit in their scam (a crime I was guilty of at one time-before I figured it out). If you have doubts about PublishAmerica, how can you go on singing their praises? PA is PA Boosters aren't just defending their publisher, they're helping them swindle people.

And as bad as the PA boosters are, their employees are everybit as guilty as the owners. If you don't know for sure that PA is a scam, okay. But at some point, don't you have to come to that understanding? Once you suspect them of wrongdoing, how can you work for them? How can you support them? To do so, is to do the work of evil. Don't you PA boosters and PA employees see that? Get out of there now, before the whole thing takes you all to H*ll.

PublishAmerica is evil. That's why we fight it.
Diana (feeling a tad melodramatic this morning)

Diana: Absolutely right (or Write; nice plug for the site, eh?). To expand on that, it's a bit akin to the Auschwitz guards. At some point their protest, "But I vas chust following orders!" rings a bit hollow. To quote a favorite preacher of mine, one really is hung by their tongue. There comes a place in one's life when the Rubicon has been crossed, the die cast, one's soul sold.

For the PA boosters, employees, toadies, et. al....I hope the paycheck is worth it.

John (who's been known to stretch a metaphor until it screams for mercy)

victoriastrauss

05-03-2005, 06:55 PM

That's a good question. I know you can't copyright titles, but I also know John Gray has trademarked "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." It's a whole empire now, just like "Atkin's Diet."

Does that make a difference?It might if anyone knew the PA book existed. Odds are no one will.

- Victoria

MMo

05-03-2005, 07:02 PM

It might if anyone knew the PA book existed. Odds are no one will.

- Victoria

They do, as of about six minutes ago, if they read the "Other" section in the contact us link posted above.

Ah, heck. Here it is again:
http://www.marsvenus.com/InquiryForm.php

The caption I used was merely "Trademark Infringement?"

Mo

DaveKuzminski

05-03-2005, 07:03 PM

Well, I'm certainly doing my best to let those folks know that their intellectual property is being abused and by whom. (Hi, Willem, Larry, Miranda, and the other PunishAmericanos! Just doing my best to earn your hatred.) ;)

Whoa, talk about posting at the same time! I left similar messages.

realitychuck

05-03-2005, 07:05 PM

If this book had been pitched to a legitimate publisher with the title referenced above, and said publisher was interested in publishing it, what would have been their reaction to the proposed title? They would have requested (or insisted on) a title change. It's possible that there would be a legal way to use the title, but the publisher isn't going to take a chance, or waste time figuring out how, especially not for a first-time author with no track record.

robeiae

05-03-2005, 07:11 PM

Hmmm...Capone was brought down by charges of tax evasion, could copyright infringement bring down PA? Is there anything in the PA contract that absolves them of all responsibility for copyright/trademark infringement? If there is, will it stand up? Would it represent a possible avenue for invalidating contracts? Jaws?

Rob

victoriastrauss

05-03-2005, 07:12 PM

Jenna, Victoria, others- Have you personally gotten any death threats?Once. Ann and I were both threatened by Martha Ivery, a kooky scammer we later helped put out of business. It would be dramatic to say we took it seriously and called our local police departments, but we didn't. We just laughed.

Like Dave, we've been threatened with libel lawsuits. A couple of times these threats have progressed to cease-and-desist lawyer letters (see the ST Literary Agency thread), and once to actual legal papers (hastily withdrawn when the scammer's attorney learned that we had extensive documentation of all our statements, a small fact the scammer neglected to share with him). We also often get demands to share the names of complainants, which of course we don't do. And when the phone was still in my name (that's no longer so, partly to make me harder to harass) I got the occasional angry phone call.

It used to bother me, but these days I just call Ann and say, "We got another lawyer letter," and she says "Oh yeah? Did you fax it to Jaws?" and I say "Yes" and then we talk about something else. We are just so cool!

- Victoria

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2005, 07:13 PM

It might if anyone knew the PA book existed. Odds are no one will.

God gives us enemies so that someone will always be interested in how we're doing.

Memphis Ed

05-03-2005, 07:15 PM

What you say is absolutely true! In my case, I bought into the PA propaganda because I didn't stray far from the PAMB, so how was I going to hear the truth?

Those who remain there even though they know the truth about PA really mystify me. They get their nourishment of junk food through an umbilical cord attached to PA's MB. I can't figure it out, especially when you can't choose your family, but you CAN choose your friends.

I wonder how long PA would survive if the message board was shut down?

Also, I wonder what it would do to their business if they told some prospective authors "Your book sucks and we're not going to print it, but for two hundred bucks a year, you can post on the PA board and for an additional $100, you can post on the private board"?

I think the board for some of these folks is more important than their books (don't get any ideas, Jenna).

victoriastrauss

05-03-2005, 07:16 PM

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2005, 07:26 PM

...we're not creating a problem for PA (which can just kill the book and waltz on its merry way)

Not if a junior staffer discards the lawyer letter unread.

but for the author, whose book may get the kybosh. I don't see the point.

And this would be bad ... how?

Aconite

05-03-2005, 07:31 PM

Re: the Mars/Venus thing...I don't want to be a goody-goody, but honestly, who really cares if a PA title commits trademark infringement (if indeed it does)? By making an issue of this we're not creating a problem for PA (which can just kill the book and waltz on its merry way) but for the author, whose book may get the kybosh. I don't see the point.

And it would be bad for the author if PA didn't publish the book? It would actually be a godsend, though they may not feel that way right away.

If "Venus/Mars" is trademarked, the holder's lawyers have to take action to prevent dilution to keep the trademark in force, don't they? Wouldn't they regularly do Google searches on the trademarked phrase? Wouldn't they find that title? Wouldn't the author in question have a potentially bigger problem at that point than now, when the book can still be kyboshed or the title changed?

To the author: Your publisher should never have put you in this position. ANY reputable publisher would have discussed the legal issues involved with you. It's the publisher's job to know these things. PA didn't do their job...and you take the hit. Another example of why PA sucks, and how they don't care squat about their authors.

priceless1

05-03-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by underthecity
If this book had been pitched to a legitimate publisher with the title referenced above, and said publisher was interested in publishing it, what would have been their reaction to the proposed title?

They would have requested (or insisted on) a title change. It's possible that there would be a legal way to use the title, but the publisher isn't going to take a chance, or waste time figuring out how, especially not for a first-time author with no track record.
The title would have raised a huge red flag with us. We would have consulted our attorney, then require the author come up with a new title.

keltora

05-03-2005, 07:37 PM

*wince* A PA author paid $350 for a Kirkus review. It was a good review of a good book, so why do I wince?

1) They had to pay for a (debatably) respectable review.

2) I expect many of the 11,000 Happy Authors will now pay for a review.

3) Considering the average quality of a PA book, I fully expect *comment deleted by Nice-O-Matic(tm)*

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2314.htm

Kirkus? Since when do they charge for reviews?

DaveKuzminski

05-03-2005, 07:42 PM

The way I see it, hundreds of writers have written to me offering information about violations on the parts of others, sometimes even when it wasn't them who was victimized. On a couple of occasions, I was the victim being notified. I feel I owe the same responsibility to other writers and even to some corporations that hold trademarks to alert them when their property is being violated.

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2005, 07:42 PM

Kirkus? Since when do they charge for reviews?

Since last year sometime, they've offered for-pay reviews to authors. These reviews only appear in a special section of their webpage.

They continue with the normal reviews for regular books in their hard-copy version.

CaoPaux

05-03-2005, 08:25 PM

God gives us enemies so that someone will always be interested in how we're doing.That really resonates with me today. Since I'm feeling a mite darfed, I think I'll mix me a Stipid Zobmi, then go back to bed. :Coffee:

M. Story

05-03-2005, 08:26 PM

I wonder how long PA would survive if the message board was shut down?...........I think the board for some of these folks is more important than their books....

You are right, Ed. I know of a few that are stuck to the PAMB's with super glue. The hold there is tremendous, and the mob mentality strong. If the PAMB were shut down, PA would quickly fade into oblivion. Many posters enjoy wading around in the muck. They don't seem to care that they're contaminating innocents who have just donned their rose-colored glasses and can't yet see what they're steppin' on in the barnyard. They just take it as fact what the seasoned PA authors tell them. Those who know better don't seem to care as long as they get their own daily dish of fodder. :tongue

Jaws

05-03-2005, 08:44 PM

Back from Chicago and ready to… not party, but at least hang out at AW.

I'm not really a very happy camper this morning. But then, y'all sort of expect that, doncha? In no particular order, with no particular ire, a few grumps.
"Darf" is a perfectly good verb in my native tongue, roughly meaning "to permit." Thus my posting of a couple of days ago, "Ich darf Herr Meiners meinen Esel kuessen" (substituting for the umlaut, since this software won't recognize HTML entities properly). That means approximately "I would/will permit Mr. Meiners to kiss my hairy butt" with a couple of grammar errors caused by excessive ethanol. On the other hand, I though we should refrain from permitting PA to do pretty much anything… although I'd appreciate it if we'd quit mangling the language any more than necessary.
The trademark issue on the "MAFM,WAFV" title (trying to avoid making this message pop up in response to search queries) is fairly clear. The mark is not a particularly strong mark, as it has (for example) been used by Jay Leno in his monologues, and I believe Letterman has also. One might also argue that there is no competitive aspect, because the particular book doesn't compete with any existing or known planned product from or authorized by the registrant. However, the author loses on a different trademark theory: tarnishment. Anybody reading that book could well have a damaged appreciation for the authorized products. Moral of the story: If you're planning on using a phrase that might be a mark for your title, get competent counsel. That's why one can't call a book concerning drug addiction You Can't Always Get What You Want with impunity, but one could call it Standing in Line With Mr. Jimmy—an example that is not merely hypothetical.
I'm still waiting to see a complete copy of the Pan Macmillan contract, but the preliminary indications I have are that the 20% royalty is on net. That means that it's a 12% royalty on list price for books sold at a long discount, presuming that the information I have is correct. Thus, it's an even worse deal (financially) than had been thought.

keltora

05-03-2005, 08:50 PM

Since last year sometime, they've offered for-pay reviews to authors. These reviews only appear in a special section of their webpage.

They continue with the normal reviews for regular books in their hard-copy version.

Sad thing about Kirkus is that in more recent years libraries have started to take a lot of its reviewing with a grain of salt. They have a habit of highly praising first novels, then mercilessly gutting any following work by the author.

Shall have to mention this to inhouse readers of Kirkus. Even if they are not doing it in the print edition, it just makes me wonder about their standards all the more.

mdmkay

05-03-2005, 09:02 PM

I've heard that authors with PA are getting their contracts back but how in the heck are they doing it? I've been bugging PA for months and months. I have no idea what their problem is? I know they cheated me on my roayalties on my first book saying it only sold 6 copies in a year and a half but like an idiot I had signed a contract on a children't book before I got my second royalties check or had found out about this forum. When I signed the first contract I thought I had done what I was supposed to do with research, have a lawyer go over the contract....etc but obviously I was new and naive. I have been wrangling with them over getting both contracts back and since none of my relatives or friends except one bought the first book (although I know it sold a hell of alot more than they are saying) why do they want the second after i have told them I won't support either book, publicize them, ....etc. What do I have to do to get them to give up???????

Jeff

05-03-2005, 09:04 PM

Re: the Mars/Venus thing...I don't want to be a goody-goody, but honestly, who really cares if a PA title commits trademark infringement (if indeed it does)?

The author and the trademark holder should be the ones to decide if they care, which they cannot do if they do not know.

By making an issue of this we're not creating a problem for PA (which can just kill the book and waltz on its merry way) but for the author, whose book may get the kybosh. I don't see the point.

I disagree, Victoria. The situation is that PA demonstrates, once again, that it is inept as a publisher. If the trademark holder cries foul and PA is forced to change the title, then it is simply another example for those who might be on the fence to consider before they sign. How does a reputable "traditional" publisher allow themselves to rip off the trademark of another series of books by another publisher? (If indeed that is the case).

As far as the author is concerned, she can simply change the title. If she has quoted anything in those 62 pages that she had no right to, she will need to change that as well.

I mean, all we are talking about here is a change in a PDF file. They can easily do that and re-release it. It's not as if there are a thousand copies of that thing sitting in a warehouse somewhere that might have to be burned.

We have a choice. We can ignore it, or we can hold PA to the same level of professionalism that both they and their authors seem to demand by their own action and statements. For my part, I see it completely and absolutely as fair game.

And every problem they make for themselves adds another reason that we can use to point out the reason as to why a new writer should never sign with PA.

bluwinteryfox

05-03-2005, 09:25 PM

I've heard that authors with PA are getting their contracts back but how in the heck are they doing it? What do I have to do to get them to give up???????
You've been PMed

ResearchGuy

05-03-2005, 09:29 PM

... If the PAMB were shut down, PA would quickly fade into oblivion.
What percentage of PA authors participate in the PAMB? It does not seem that it can be all that large. Of course many might be reading without posting ... But WTHDIK.

--Ken

ResearchGuy

05-03-2005, 09:33 PM

Not if a junior staffer discards the lawyer letter unread....
Just wait until the lawyer follows up and gets a "tone" letter. Hehehehe.

--Ken

M. Story

05-03-2005, 09:41 PM

What percentage of PA authors participate in the PAMB? It does not seem that it can be all that large. Of course many might be reading without posting ... But WTHDIK.--Ken

I read it for months before I got my password. I learned a lot about the individual personalities by the time I was able to actually contribute to the conversations. There are also a lot of authors who are reading the boards who are afraid to post, but still feel a connection. People who are searching for a publisher will read the boards, just to find out more about PA. Heaven forbid, if that is their only source of info about ScamsRus. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonfaint.gif

victoriastrauss

05-03-2005, 09:50 PM

I disagree, Victoria. The situation is that PA demonstrates, once again, that it is inept as a publisher.We already know this. One book title doesn't add anything significant to the body of evidence.
I mean, all we are talking about here is a change in a PDF file. They can easily do that and re-release it.Yes, they can. But will they? We all know how amenable they are to requests for corrections, and how kindly they deal with authors who screw up.

I'm just concerned that making an issue over this book title is too much like targeting one specific author. I've seen this happen before, with the witch hunt over the infamous Orlando Bloom book cover. The person who wound up taking sh*t in that deal was the author, not PA.

- Victoria

bluwinteryfox

05-03-2005, 10:08 PM

What percentage of PA authors participate in the PAMB? It does not seem that it can be all that large. Of course many might be reading without posting ... But WTHDIK.--Ken
I know of two people who don't read or post on the pamb or any message board. They ask me for information about pa. One of these people knows of at least one other pa author, and that person does not read or post on the pamb either. So I know of three & I'm sure there are more.

James D. Macdonald

05-03-2005, 10:23 PM

There are 70-80 active posters at the PAMB. Following the 10% poster-to-lurker rule, that would give us 700-800 PA authors reading the boards.

That's roughly 10% of the authors who have books actually out.

Each time you go to a messageboard page gives you 50 "hits" for the graphics. Going to a thread inside gives you the same 50 hits, plus hits for the various author avatars. Figure another ten. So one person going to one of their boards and reading one thread yields around 110 hits.

They claim 7 million hits a month.

Seven million hits is 700 people reading three threads a day.

More or less. Give or take. Your mileage may vary. Packed by weight, not volume. Contents may settle during shipping. Not all plates increase in value. Past performace is no guarantee of future profits. Sold "as is." Professional driver on closed track.

Jeff

05-03-2005, 10:28 PM

We already know this. One book title doesn't add anything significant to the body of evidence.

Understood, Victoria. And I agree. We know this. But then neither of us can predict just what it will be that will tip that potential PA author into reconsidering the deal that they might make with PA -- it may very well be the fact that PA allowed a book to be published that had to be pulled and re-done because it infringed on the trademark of another author, thereby demonstrating once again that PA is nothing close to a reputable publisher. I just don't see the shame in this -- we are not making this stuff up.

Yes, they can. But will they? We all know how amenable they are to requests for corrections, and how kindly they deal with authors who screw up.

Well heck. You did not want to sound like a goody-two-shoes before and now I don't want to sound like an ogre, but whose fault is it anyway? The author for nipping the title? PA for not even seeing it? Or us for pointing it out? If there is blame here to be assesed if the author gets her book pulled, I would not place the fact that we pointed it out anywhere near the top two spots.

I'm just concerned that making an issue over this book title is too much like targeting one specific author. I've seen this happen before, with the witch hunt over the infamous Orlando Bloom book cover. The person who wound up taking sh*t in that deal was the author, not PA.

Again, understood. And it does sound the like the same kind of thing, however from what I understand of that other instance that author never meant for Orlando Bloom to actually appear on her cover, she just sent that shot in to show PA the kind of thing she wanted and PA went ahead and printed it. In this case, it seems that the author knowingly and willingly (and more than likely without knowledge that what she was doing might be wrong) titled her book using the trademark belonging to another author. PA knowingly and willingly produced it (such as they do) and they should have known (although it should again be pointed out that no one has yet been able to say for sure that it is trademark infringement).

Really, I guess when you look at it, they are not that very similar at all.

Again, call me an ogre, but I see nothing in the least wrong with pointing out PA's failure as a publisher. In the worst case scenario, if they choose NOT to fix the PDF file and simply can the authors work, who will be the bad guy? The one who pointed out the problem or the one who tossed the author and her work aside? Who will be at fault? PA for producing a product that possibly infringes on someone else's trademark, or us for pointing it out?

Sorry, Victoria, I guess I am just going to have to disagree with ya on this one. If you want me to remove the original post and the link, however, I will certainly understand and will do so with no hard feelings at all.

Jeff

clintl

05-03-2005, 10:47 PM

Again, understood. And it does sound the like the same kind of thing, however from what I understand of that other instance that author never meant for Orlando Bloom to actually appear on her cover, she just sent that shot in to show PA the kind of thing she wanted and PA went ahead and printed it. In this case, it seems that the author knowingly and willingly (and more than likely without knowledge that what she was doing might be wrong) titled her book using the trademark belonging to another author. PA knowingly and willingly produced it (such as they do) and they should have known (although it should again be pointed out that no one has yet been able to say for sure that it is trademark infringement).

It's pretty well-known that titles cannot be copyrighted. Trademarks are a different animal, of course, but I can see where the author may have innocently not known that the title was a possible trademark infringement, and thought it was OK to use.

DaveKuzminski

05-03-2005, 11:22 PM

It's pretty well-known that titles cannot be copyrighted. Trademarks are a different animal, of course, but I can see where the author may have innocently not known that the title was a possible trademark infringement, and thought it was OK to use.

It doesn't excuse the publisher for not checking, especially when it's based upon such a well-known title. If anyone's at fault, it's PublishAmerica because they're not providing the level of support that they should. Since they published it, they're the ones who should face the legal consequences because they were in a position to tell the writer that the title wasn't acceptable and didn't.

Personally, I hope that the title was trademarked and that the trademark owner hauls PA into court. One way or another, we'll either force PA to behave legally, fairly, and in an ethical manner or go out of business if it's unwilling to do those.

As far as this hurting the author, as has been pointed out, that harm has already been caused by PA. Furthermore, this shows that the previous incidents of copyright and trademark violation were not isolated, but rather a pattern of corporate level misbehavior. Maybe authors who see that PA is a serial violator will then recognize that it's not the publisher they seek.

ResearchGuy

05-03-2005, 11:50 PM

It doesn't excuse the publisher for not checking...
Personally, I hope that the title was trademarked ...
We are overlooking one thing: maybe the author did have permission.

Irrespective of that, inasmuch as the book(let) seems to be a novella, and inasmuch as the book(let) will have essentially no circulation (invisible outside the PAniverse), it is unlkely (in my layman's opinion) that this is more than a tempest in a teacup, not even rising to teapot magnitude.

It might be an amusing story. Perhaps some day it will appear in an anthology published by a real publisher, retitled, say, "Not from Mars, not from Venus--Dad is from Neptune."

--Ken

DaveKuzminski

05-04-2005, 12:03 AM

Well, if the author did have permission, then notifying the trademark holder will have no consequences. But since we have no way of knowing, the best choice was and still is to notify the trademark holder.

There will doubtless be future cases and we shouldn't set a wrong precedent for ourselves to follow that might cause others to decide that since we didn't get involved because we didn't consider it important enough, then they won't get involved when it's our intellectual property in jeopardy.

Aconite

05-04-2005, 12:10 AM

We are overlooking one thing: maybe the author did have permission.

I think that's unlikely, for many reasons--among them is the fact that PA does NOT have a blurb on Up In Lights saying "Really Famous Guy lets PA author use trademarked phrase in book title!"

Irrespective of that, inasmuch as the book(let) seems to be a novella, and inasmuch as the book(let) will have essentially no circulation (invisible outside the PAniverse), it is unlkely (in my layman's opinion) that this is more than a tempest in a teacup, not even rising to teapot magnitude.

Jaws has already addressed this particular situation, but as I understand it (IANAL), in general, trademark holders have to aggressively protect their trademark if they want to keep it. That is, they have to go after the itty bitty Mom & Pop convenience store called "Speedy's" (with a hand-painted picture of Speedy Gonzales) in NotEvenOneCowTown just as aggressively as they'd go after PepsiCo's unlicensed Speedy Gonzales Juice, even though only about 42 people know about the sign at Speedy's. It's not like copyright, which you can choose to enforce selectively.

Sher2

05-04-2005, 12:13 AM

It doesn't excuse the publisher for not checking, especially when it's based upon such a well-known title. If anyone's at fault, it's PublishAmerica because they're not providing the level of support that they should. Since they published it, they're the ones who should face the legal consequences because they were in a position to tell the writer that the title wasn't acceptable and didn't.

Anyone who has a passing acquaintance with currently popular books -- and that should certainly include publishers -- should be familiar with that title. I know for a fact that PA checks titles for similarity to other of their own titles. They made me change mine because they said there was another one of theirs with almost the same title.

...rolling on,
www.publishamericasucks.com, The Tour

clintl

05-04-2005, 12:17 AM

I agree, PA at least is at fault if there's a trademark violation. I just don't think it's going to occur to every author to check something like that.

DreamWeaver

05-04-2005, 12:18 AM

That really resonates with me today. Since I'm feeling a mite darfed, I think I'll mix me a Stipid Zobmi, then go back to bed. :Coffee:Pretty please. Right now. Drop everything. Go over to the Take It Outside Board and post the recipe for a Stipid Zobmi. It sounds fabulous.

Merci Beau-hiccup,
Kris

Aconite

05-04-2005, 12:18 AM

I agree, PA at least is at fault if there's a trademark violation. I just don't think it's going to occur to every author to check something like that.

That's why real publishers have legal departments.

DreamWeaver

05-04-2005, 12:19 AM

Just wait until the lawyer follows up and gets a "tone" letter. Hehehehe.
--KenPlease please please let it be a very irascible lawyer having a very, very bad day.

Kris

Christine N.

05-04-2005, 12:23 AM

Kirkus? Since when do they charge for reviews?

Going beyond what UJ said, Kirkus only reviews books that have not yet been released in their magazine. They also do not review self pubbed/vanity pubbed books, except when they pay the $350 fee to have it online.

Read about it here: http://www.kirkusreports.com/kirkusreviews/about_us/submission.jsp

ZaZ

05-04-2005, 12:39 AM

Sometimes I visit this thread after 20 pages have whipped by unread and Freddie Mercury appears and repeatedly sings "Who wants to live forever!" higher and higher until he, well, frankly, comes back from the dead as a straight man or maybe I'm just in some kind of Highlander time warp. :idea:

As if one day there really will be only one. And by one, is it the one last post or poster and why who what will it be? Would the never-ending thread end if the monster was dead? :faint:

Sooner or later, doesn't it seem possible that this thread, like its deaf and dumb opponent, might somehow cease to exist? A time to attone for the tone and after a rebellious and well, quite freak nasty post-PA party - where we hear Ed Williams say in twang, "Jeezis, look at the size of that cob on ZaZ and Oh my Lord, who is that sexy tart hobbling away from him. Renee? No she's married. Jenna? Nope? I'd say Lizzie but we're not in her fantasy. Gollee, that there hobblin' away from ZaZ is none other than..." - when finally, after the post-coital chit-chat and pretend snuggling, we all stop and laugh at what could only be a NEW THREAD?

SO! In essence, have we reached a level of proof that this thread will never die? The creator can leave it and it lives! IT lives! It's like f***in' Frankenstein. Who, who will step up to the plate and wear the crown of Igor of the Never-ending thread?

Not it. :gone:

CaoPaux

05-04-2005, 01:00 AM

Pretty please. Right now. Drop everything. Go over to the Take It Outside Board and post the recipe for a Stipid Zobmi. It sounds fabulous.

Merci Beau-hiccup,
KrisHo, ho, a challenge! Gimme a minute... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/teufel/devil-smiley-019.gif

lindylou45

05-04-2005, 01:07 AM

http://www.marsvenus.com/InquiryForm.php

That link might work, if enough people mention it, the owners might be interested in checking it out.

Just a thought.

I just sent a little note mentioning the book published by PA. Thanks for the link.

bluwinteryfox

05-04-2005, 01:24 AM

ResearchGuy

05-04-2005, 01:29 AM

...trademark holders have to aggressively [well, assertively --KWU] protect their trademark...
Sure. But in this instance, if it is deemed a violation (it almost certainly is if permission was not obtained), all it might take is a lawyerly letter or call and a change in the title. Given a sales potential of maybe a few dozen copies, it is hard to see much escallation needed, in my layman's opinion, as no more than a handful of people will ever even be aware of the book(let)'s existence. Where things could get interesting is if the stooges or their underlings mistakenly try to blow off the attorneys as though they were PA authors. "Don't take that tone with us ...."

--Ken

Aconite

05-04-2005, 01:46 AM

Sure. But in this instance, if it is deemed a violation (it almost certainly is if permission was not obtained), all it might take is a lawyerly letter or call and a change in the title.

Ah, okay, now I see what you meant. I thought you were saying that since not many people would ever hear about it, the trademark holders might let it slide.

And, of course, I may be wrong about this, but I did mean "aggressive." I believe you have to search for incidence of infringement and take steps against it, not just sit back unless something is brought to your attention. Perhaps Jaws will be kind enough to educate me?

Where things could get interesting is if the stooges or their underlings mistakenly try to blow off the attorneys as though they were PA authors. "Don't take that tone with us ...."

Ohpleaseohpleaseohplease...I've been such a good girl all year, Santa, and I just want this one thing...

Kevin Yarbrough

05-04-2005, 01:47 AM

Diana said: "Or better yet, if what we are saying here isn't true, surely they would be dragging us to court to make us stop?"

It's a catch 22 darlin'. Their thinking is this..."If PA is lying then how come no one has taken them to court? If the bashers are lying then how come PA hasn't taken them to court? Who is right? I don't know. All I do know is that PA published my book, and what have the bashers ever done for me?"

We can just give them the info they need and pray that they will remember it for later. You never know when that one moment comes along and PA does something stipid and then the author puts that together with the info we gave them and BAM!!!! Deer in the headlights, smashed by the moving car that is truth. You drag your busted body aka ego to the side of the road, pop it back where it belongs and stare at the truth as it drives away. You read the plate to get the number so you can either turn them in or thank them and what you see is this--AWTRUTH

We have to keep driving the highway of the net, throwing out the propoganda of truth to authors we pass by. We do it because word of mouth is a powerful tool and sooner or later PA will screw over the wrong person and they will get their just dues.

But I have to tell you folks, if gas keeps getting hire I'm not pitching in gas money. I will borrow my sons motorized HotWheel Jeep, squeeze my fat a s s in it and go about my way tossing out papers. Just make sure the Tour bus doesn't run me over, my kid might be mad if I broke his Jeep.

ResearchGuy

05-04-2005, 01:58 AM

.... I did mean "aggressive." I believe you have to search for incidence of infringement and take steps against it...
That is assertive. Aggressive is sending in some toughs to rough up the violators. Passivity is not assertiveness. It can, however, sometimes be used in aggressively, as in "passive aggression." (Having had a child who exhibited that exasperating characteristic, I am all too familiar with it. Fortunately, he eventually grew out of 99% of it, after learning from a self-administered psychology test that he WAS passive aggressive. He did not believe his mom and me when we told him that.)

BTW, I did not see a trademark notice at Gray's website. Puzzling. Omission of the trademark notice strikes me (a layman) as peculiar.

--Ken

p.s. Gene Simmons (?! of KISS?? That one?) trademarked a similar, but more vulgar, phrase. I can find no evidence that the exact phrase in question in this discussion has been trademarked.

p.p.s. For overview of trademark, see http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/

p.p.p.s Trademarks can also be registered with states (but not with the same level of protection as via USPTO; that is legal stuff, so talk to a lawyer if it is important to you)

DreamWeaver

05-04-2005, 02:02 AM

...if this is anything to go by:I'm a bit confused about this. I went to my local Wal-Mart and spoke to the manager about them carrying my book. They told me I needed to get in touch with their coporate and get a vendor ID. Well, if "I" get a vendor ID, does that mean I need to purchase my book and re-sell it to Wal-Mart?? Wouldn't/Shouldn't PA do this at our request? I would have thought so, too, if PA were a standard publisher. But, perhaps WalMart subcontracts...

I wonder how WalMart does choose the books they sell? (Other than just ordering the new JK Rowlings by the cubic mile.) Do they have their own book buyers who order from distributors, or do they subcontract out the book stocking function? Anyone know?

Kris

robeiae

05-04-2005, 02:05 AM

Not it.
Double not it...quitsies...no startsies...licked it...double stamped it! :wag:

Rob

Kevin Yarbrough

05-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Re: the Mars/Venus thing...I don't want to be a goody-goody, but honestly, who really cares if a PA title commits trademark infringement (if indeed it does)? By making an issue of this we're not creating a problem for PA (which can just kill the book and waltz on its merry way) but for the author, whose book may get the kybosh. I don't see the point.

- Victoria
Yeah the book might be dropped but look at the whole picture. If a lawyer got invovled for this reason and they did a little digging, what would they find? Another infringment, Elven Vampire, harrasment, verbal abuse, false advertising, etc. Never know, this might be the thing that would make a lawyer interested. If PA is going to do copyright infringment not once, but twice, what would make them not do it again?

I don't think it will go that far because we just posted it and PA just read it. The title will be changed now. We need to keep this stuff off of the board so we can use it for future use.

Patricia

05-04-2005, 02:14 AM

How's your family doing?

DreamWeaver

05-04-2005, 02:14 AM

From www.legal-definitions.com (http://www.legal-definitions.com). I have NO idea how accurate their information is, but it's a start. I'll look a bit more.trademark registration definition – it is not necessary to register a trademark or service mark to prevent others from infringing on the trademark. Trademarks generally become protected as soon as they are adopted by an organization and used in commerce, even before registration. Registering means simply recording the trademark with United States Patent and Trademark office. As a result, you get the ® symbol on your trademark.Though one would have expected it to be registered by now. It's several years old.
Kris

James D. Macdonald

05-04-2005, 02:16 AM

As Victoria says, this is a side-show.

The main thrust has to be on false/misleading advertising and fraud.

Kevin Yarbrough

05-04-2005, 02:22 AM

How's your family doing?
Fine, thanks for asking.

Kevin Yarbrough

05-04-2005, 02:25 AM

As Victoria says, this is a side-show.

The main thrust has to be on false/misleading advertising and fraud.
We may never get them on that Uncle Jim. Just like Elliot Ness never got Capone on what he really wanted him too. Maybe we need to hit a different avenue. The IRS might just do it for us.

I really think someone needs to write a book about PA. Just keep it in the drawer until PA goes down and then add that chapter in and send it off.

Gratian Gasparri

05-04-2005, 02:28 AM

Oh, and please feel free to correct my post, in any manner you see fit. Typos, grammar, misused words, etc. I’m here to learn. I get so nervous over here when I have to hit submit, but here goes.

As anybody who follows this board can attest, your writing style, grammar, and spelling is superior to my own. I have two books published by mid-sized commercial publishers. This is proof you can do better than PA.

astonwest

05-04-2005, 02:40 AM

By making an issue of this we're not creating a problem for PA (which can just kill the book and waltz on its merry way) but for the author, whose book may get the kybosh. I don't see the point.
And on the far edge of the cynical scale, I have to wonder if PA would ever see any harm from the trademark owner filing a claim...

From my contract (others may differ):
29. The Author covenants and represents that the said literary work has not hitherto been published in book form; that it contains no matter that, when published, will be libelous or otherwise unlawful, or which will infringe upon any proprietary interest at common law or statutory copyright; that the Author is the sole proprietor of the said literary work and has full power to make this grant and agreement, and that the said work is free of any lien, claim, charge or debt of any kind, and that the Author and his legal successors and/or representatives will hold harmless and keep indemnified the Publisher from all manner of claims, proceeding and expenses which may be taken or incurred on the ground that said work is subject to any such lien, claim, charge or debt, or that it is such violation, or that it contains anything libelous or illegal. (emphasis mine)

Patricia

05-04-2005, 02:49 AM

And on the far edge of the cynical scale, I have to wonder if PA would ever see any harm from the trademark owner filing a claim...

From my contract (others may differ):
(emphasis mine)[/font]

Thanks, I was thinking of posting that -- you saved me the task.

Renee

05-04-2005, 02:52 AM

It would be difficult to believe that anyone wouldn't have some idea as to the truth about PA with all the negative publicity lately. Those that stay with PA have their reasons, I suppose.

I understand what Lola is saying and have to agree to a certain extent. Anyone who wants to come here is welcome, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to respond to them with this "so glad you're here" mentality.

I'm talking about those still wrapped into their contracts. I just wanted to see how many of you truly cared more about the PA cause rather than the "us them mentality. Let's see what's that two to oh a thousand something..

Nevermind about that issue, because I have made mental notes as to who stands by what here.

And Kas is not the only one to have "apologozied for their transgressions." The person with whom I had a problem with years ago -- we solved our problems privately and I also apologized here for something from years ago.
The way I look at it:

If you think that PA authors have to apologize for their transgressions, well what about some of you? Huh? Shouldn't the same thing be applied here? I believe it should be the same both ways, not just to suit the person.

I don't think I have anything left to apologize for...maybe someone of you disagree - I truly am truly unaware of the situation, if so. Lemme know I'd like to know if anyone has a problem with me personally.

mdin

05-04-2005, 02:57 AM

My last word on the trademark thing...

No one would ever know about the book existing, if it had a different title.

People going on Amazon searching for the original Mars/Venus book or any one of the myriad of spin-offs may very easily stumble across the PA book. We'll have to wait and see once it's on Amazon. At the very least, I think it's only fair for the trademark owner to be aware, and let his corporation decide what to do about it.

JennaGlatzer

05-04-2005, 03:01 AM

Jenna, Victoria, others- Have you personally gotten any death threats?

No. I've had plenty of the types of threats Victoria mentioned. People threatening to sue me for "libel and slander" (always both, even though nothing on this message board is spoken). Many companies listed in this Bewares & Background Check board have sent me nastygrams. A few message board posters have, too, based on the fact that another member wrote something they didn't like. Two lawyer letters that were easily solved when I spoke to the lawyer and explained exactly why his/her client was a nut job. But never have I received threats of physical harm or believed my family was in danger.

astonwest

05-04-2005, 03:03 AM

Thanks, I was thinking of posting that -- you saved me the task.
Fortunately for me, the electronic version of the contract they offered (ahem) on my second book is nearly identical to the hard copy I have of the first contract (minus a second work clause)...copying and pasting from the PDF is a whole lot easier than trying to type it in by hand...whew!
If you think that PA authors have to apologize for their transgressions...
Myself, it wouldn't matter a hill of beans whether former PA authors apologized or not. If they've learned the truth, hot diggity!

Granted, that doesn't mean I'm going to be buddy-buddy with them, or trust them with deep, dark secrets (and it doesn't mean I won't)...

But as has been mentioned before, all of this is way off the subject at hand...

Renee

05-04-2005, 03:08 AM

I read it for months before I got my password. I learned a lot about the individual personalities by the time I was able to actually contribute to the conversations. There are also a lot of authors who are reading the boards who are afraid to post, but still feel a connection. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonfaint.gif

Exactly my point! Thank you!

That's the only reason I was saying please don't say that such and such isn't welcome. here Now I don't don't blame anyone if they had personal problems with a particular group of folks. But that isn't a problem that should be taken to the board (IMO), and in some cases....maybe names like that should be kept private cause I don't think posting on this site requires a check test on somebody's clipboard. If ya catch my drift. I'm not asking for anything here. I have no rights to do so. All I'm saying is that if members say so and so isn't welcome, well then that takes this cause back to square one - to me. Other than about 2 or 3 comments here, I have no problem with this thread. I actually feel like I know most of you. And no I'm not pointing fingers, just trying to keep the peace..

CaoPaux

05-04-2005, 03:19 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2312.htm

It is true that typos are distracting, though, and can interfere with a good read. I've found that out after purchasing a couple PA books. Couldn't finish them. Too many typos. Interferred with the flow.

It was unfortunate for the authors, I'm sure they're devastated by the errors left in their books. I know I would be. I guess it's just up to us, as authors, to go through it enough to eliminate as much as we can.

At least with this publishing company, they must not focus on such things. Or maybe those authors opted to forego the editor and selected to print "as is" in order to get their books sooner. I don't know.
------

Wow. If their own authors are starting to notice.....

DaveKuzminski

05-04-2005, 03:21 AM

It's been my position for a long time that PA owes a number of people an apology, but I've never insisted on any personal apologies from any of their writers. I recognize that many of them were taken in by PA's deceit. I can excuse and forgive that quite easily.

Memphis Ed

05-04-2005, 03:32 AM

Wow. If their own authors are starting to notice.....

One of the PA authors just stated that they couldn't finish a couple of PA books they had purchased because of the typos in them.

"Traditional" publishing companies don't let books go out like this.

BTW, I don't know how many of you have noticed this, but if you Google Publish America, the by-line under the first link that comes up refers to "publish a novel with Publish America today." Not "submit" but "publish". Sounds kinda close to taking anything to me.

ResearchGuy

05-04-2005, 03:39 AM

...
People going on Amazon searching for the original Mars/Venus book or any one of the myriad of spin-offs may very easily stumble across the PA book....
Not so likely on Google, though:
Results 1 - 10 of about 86,500 for "Men (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/men%26r%3D67) are from (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/from%26r%3D67) Mars (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/mars%26r%3D67), Women (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/women%26r%3D67) are from (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/from%26r%3D67) Venus (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/venus%26r%3D67)".
:-)

--Ken

Christine N.

05-04-2005, 04:00 AM

Not "submit" but "purblish". Sounds kinda close to taking anything to me.

Does it really say "purblish" or is that your typo, Ed. Because, no offence, but Purblish America is a name I can get behind. :ROFL: I'm so not making fun of you, Ed. It just struck a funny bone with me for some reason.

I wanna purblish my book. It's titled "Stipid Darfs Versus the Zobmis" with forward by Travis Tea and footnoted by the Purple Pony.

Alright, I'm gonna take my silly self away now. :roll:

CaoPaux

05-04-2005, 04:15 AM

I wanna purblish my book. It's titled "Stipid Darfs Versus the Zobmis" with forward by Travis Tea and footnoted by the Purple Pony.Are you sure that title will fit on the spline? ;)

Memphis Ed

05-04-2005, 04:16 AM

Does it really say "purblish" or is that your typo, Ed. Because, no offence, but Purblish America is a name I can get behind. :ROFL: I'm so not making fun of you, Ed. It just struck a funny bone with me for some reason.

I wanna purblish my book. It's titled "Stipid Darfs Versus the Zobmis" with forward by Travis Tea and footnoted by the Purple Pony.

Alright, I'm gonna take my silly self away now. :roll:

Ouch!!! It says Publish but my fingers got ahead of my thoughts. That said "Purblish" America is a great call (btw, in case your are wondering, Christine, I am one of those who love to "take" it because I love to "dish" it. I appreciate your comment about not making fun of me, but do not worry for a moment. I'm glad it made you chuckle).

Ken Schneider

05-04-2005, 04:28 AM

publishamerica stinks!

ResearchGuy

05-04-2005, 04:34 AM

..."Stipid Darfs Versus the Zobmis"...
Are you sure that is not poetry?

Stipid Darf's Verses: The Zobmis, with an introduction by Travis Tea and annotations by The Purple Pony

I kinda like it.

--Ken

Sher2

05-04-2005, 04:37 AM

Are you sure that title will fit on the spline? ;)
It will if they darf it first and put an aurora on it.

Gratian Gasparri

05-04-2005, 04:41 AM

Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus is published by HarperCollins, which has a full-fledged legal department of their own. HarperCollins Publishers, 10 East 53 Street, New York, NY 10022

I'm certain they'd all love a copy of the book.

I'm certain their interest would jettison this particular author's book into PA's top 100 for sales. Just think how PA could spin this on their website! "HarperCollins contacts PA author over interest in his/her book."

Christine N.

05-04-2005, 04:42 AM

Verses of the Stipid Darf may need it's own thread. I invite all the poets to give their best aurora on the TIO board. Zobmis are invited. Spline 'em if ya got em! We'll collect 'em all up and send em to Purblish Anything, and perhaps they'll take a tone with us. Lord knows they'll all be barely coherent, but I guarantee that it will resonate.

Who knows? You may climb the echelon of the social ladder, especially if your wearing your nightie that fits like a glove.

Did I miss any ? :)

reph

05-04-2005, 04:48 AM

astonwest posted a paragraph from PA's contract:

29. The Author covenants and represents...that the Author and his legal successors and/or representatives will hold harmless and keep indemnified the Publisher from all manner of claims, proceeding and expenses which may be taken or incurred on the ground that said work is subject to any such lien, claim, charge or debt, or that it is such violation, or that it contains anything libelous or illegal.

That provision alone would keep knowledgeable writers from signing the contract as is. A writer shouldn't have to pay if someone brings a frivolous suit. A writer can't be expected to guarantee that a book won't violate a local obscenity law somewhere.

Charlie502

05-04-2005, 06:07 AM

Boy do I wish I had known about this forum before I signed up with PA.
Like the title says ... believe everything bad you've ever heard about PA and if someone does have something good to say ... take it with a pinch (a bucket) of salt. I've published a book through them and have now broken my contract with them. The stories I could tell. And actually that's exactly what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna relate my experiences with PA on paper. I'll change the name of course, but I'm gonna expose those @#$%

Ken Schneider

05-04-2005, 06:13 AM

Charlie, tell us just how you, "Broke your contract", will you?

zizban

05-04-2005, 06:21 AM

Charlie, tell us just how you, "Broke your contract", will you?

Cheated on PA with with another scam POD? ;)

Sher2

05-04-2005, 06:22 AM

Sher2

05-04-2005, 06:29 AM

Cheated on PA with with another scam POD? ;)
Nuh-uh, Ziz. Anyone who's been with PA is gonna cheat UP, not down.;)

MartyKay

05-04-2005, 08:22 AM

I just sent a little note mentioning the book published by PA. Thanks for the link.

I sent them a note t'other day. Who else dropped them a line? Hopefully whoever reads their "contact" emails will send it on to the legal department.

hmm... new signature :)

JennaGlatzer

05-04-2005, 08:56 AM

lindylou45

05-04-2005, 09:07 AM

Gravity

05-04-2005, 09:27 AM

Welcome, Charlie! How did you get out of the contract? That seems to be the million-dollar question around here these days. ;) Glad to have you with us, and sorry a bad experience is what brought you here.

Not to be the wet blanket here, but Charlie said he "broke the contract" with PA, not that he neccessarily got his rights back. As wiser ones than yours truly would point out, those are two vastly different scenarios.

If it's the former, well, people break contracts all the time.

"So I signed the lease deal for this car, I got four months into it and now I can't make the payment. Fine, come and get it."

Did this individual break his contract? Yowsa, sure did. Did he help his credit rating? Nope, sure didn't. So before we hand out too many kudos, let's make sure we're all on the same page (page. writers. get it? hyuk hyuk).

But on the other hand, Charlie m'boy, if you've found a way to get your rights back from that group of honorless curs (and that's a monstrous big if), then say on! 'Cuz you've only got about eleventy-seven people on this board who'd love to know just how you did it. (me included)

John (who must now take a seat in the penalty box for being a Gloomy Gus)

Passionate N.Y. Lady

05-04-2005, 12:14 PM

As anybody who follows this board can attest, your writing style, grammar, and spelling is superior to my own. I have two books published by mid-sized commercial publishers. This is proof you can do better than PA.

Thank you. That was very kind of you.

Diana Hignutt

05-04-2005, 02:13 PM

Ed Williams

05-04-2005, 04:02 PM

....my heart is into this thing too much to simply walk away from it, so I am coming back home.

First off, I owe some apologies. I am really sorry about getting a case of the red *** here on the thread last week. I had stayed up really late the night before answering emails from a couple of PA authors, and I was just whipped out and tired Friday morning. On account of that, I grossly overreacted to something that shouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans. I want people to express their opinions here, and they certainly don't have to coincide with mine all the time. Anyway, to Jenna, I apologize for the disruption, and to DeadlyAccurate, I apologize to you as well. You didn't deserve at all the response you got from me. I also would like to thank Gran - you were right, I did overreact, and I'm not proud of it in the least. What you posted made tons of sense, and I am grateful to you for having the moxie to put it up. In the future, if I need to get away for a couple of days I will do so quietly, and I have already worked a deal with my good friend Uncle Jim so that I now have someone I can privately ***** to when the need arises. And with that, it's time to get this show back on the road. A couple of observations:

The drunk-fest verbal cesspool on the PA boards last weekend was mostly due to the new king of "no one's paying attention to me" (Shemp), and his two sub-sub-Stooges, Tonto and Xavier. I also think the fact that our radio broadcast happened to be last weekend figured into it as well. Interestingly enough, there seems to be no more Shemp presence on the boards, wonder why? And Lynn Barry, I may disagree like hell with you about your publisher, but you definitely are a much classier act than the former proprietors of the PA boards.

Folks, we should be thankful we've gotten someone like Memphis Ed here on the boards with us. I've gotten a number of positive comments about last weekend's interview, and it goes like this - anyone can sound good on an interview if they're led by a good host. Talking to Ed was one of the easiest media things I've ever done, he's so good at it! And our man Kas did a splendid job as well, I'm very proud of these guys.

In my opinion, we have PA on the ropes and are whaling away at them good. Now is not the time to let up - ZaZ, Kas, Kev, Tina, and Phil - we need y'all! Every pertinent comment, every piece of factual information, every resource that we can point out in this fight matters. Do y'all know how good it felt to call PA what they really are out loud on the air last week? It was almost like listening to BTO and sipping an ICEE while having sex all at the same time, it was great! Diana, I love you to death! Sara, Lindy, Sherry, Ann, LynnEtte, Susan, Victoria, Mem, Jenn, and so many others, I wish I could rent a bus and go off and party with y'all for about a week. And Renee, I would give you smoochies for a long, long time if I could. Tri, Spar, Kev, Phil, and others that know who you are - thanks so much for your kind messages. And last, but not least, Jenna - you can't imagine how much I esteem you, in the final analysis, I just can't let you down. Ever.

Okay, it goes like this - I'm going to be out of town for a couple of days doing a show, and I will be back on the boards this weekend for good. And I aim to come back and kick PA's candy asses over and over and over again until they either reform or else we have put them out of business. We have accomplished a lot, people, and the best thing is, our greatest victories are yet to come...

P.S. BeeBomb, I am very, very proud of you....

P.S.S. Nancy, please accept a 400 megaton smoochie...

Christine N.

05-04-2005, 04:12 PM

YAY!!!!! Ed's back !
(wish I had a cartwheel emoticon) Big giant hugs!

M. Story

05-04-2005, 04:15 PM

Boy do I wish I had known about this forum before I signed up with PA.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif Charlie502! Glad you're here! I'm looking forward to reading about your PA experience.

Marlene

Sparhawk

05-04-2005, 04:18 PM

Dearest Kevin, trust me, they have screwed over the wrong person. I'll report details of this cryptic comment as soon as I am able.

And this will be my final warning to PA's employees ... you want to get out of there sooner rather than later, kids. PA has gotten away with stuff for a long time now, but their luck is running out.

I can say no more about this at this time...

diana

Diana..

Take no prisoners... :box:

Sparhawk

05-04-2005, 04:24 PM

Ed,

Welcome back, my friend!!! :hooray: :hooray:

-Sparhawk

DaveKuzminski

05-04-2005, 04:30 PM

The drunk-fest verbal cesspool on the PA boards last weekend was mostly due to the new king of "no one's paying attention to me" (Shemp), and his two Stooges, Tonto and Xavier.

I think they're just sub-sub-stooges to Shemp's sub-stooge position. You have to be a partner to get stooge status. ;)

Aconite

05-04-2005, 04:36 PM

and that the Author and his legal successors and/or representatives will hold harmless and keep indemnified the Publisher from all manner of claims, proceeding and expenses which may be taken or incurred on the ground that said work is subject to any such lien, claim, charge or debt, or that it is such violation, or that it contains anything libelous or illegal.]

That covers what the Author and the Author's agents can't do, but we just had a discussion about how a contract can't bind a third party to something the third party didn't agree to. I don't think this could prevent someone else from suing PA, but it would seem to cut down on the options the Author would have if they did.

Aconite

05-04-2005, 04:46 PM

.
That is assertive. Aggressive is sending in some toughs to rough up the violators. Passivity is not assertiveness.

Okay, you're using "aggressive" in a psychological sense; I'm using it in a different sense. ("Take an assertive approach to that double oxer and keep him going forward, forward, forward!" is not a line you're ever going to hear in the horse world, where "be aggressive" means "tackle that sucker!")

James D. Macdonald

05-04-2005, 04:52 PM

Sparhawk

05-04-2005, 04:54 PM

I think they're just sub-sub-stooges to Shemp's sub-stooge position. You have to be a partner to get stooge status. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I honestly beleive that it's an ego thing with Shemp. He was the PA Patron Saint. Whatever his motivation for walking away from it, death threat <<chuckle>> or moronic meltdown, he had some limited power and influence on that board. "All Hail the mighty Shemp!!".

This so called status fed his already swollen ego. Now hot having said status is driving him more nuts than he already is. He cannot accept the fact that the boards are going on without his guiding hand and cheerleading. SO, in his mind he must lash out at those who are taking over. IT's a desperate egomaniacal attempt to reassert himself as an authority figure. To SHemp's dismay, the new blood had already taken root and he was not welcome back with the open arms he, in his constant delusional state, had anticipated.

As far as the other two. "Ratman and Nightie Gal" who knows what's behind their motivation for helping Shemp and pleading his case. Friendship is a powerful motivation. I have done things for friends against my better judgement because I wanted to keep the friendship. I have learned the hard way that real friends will not ask you to sacrifice your values and/or morals for the sake of a friendship. If one does, then that person really isn't your friend.

Shemp, for all is bad qualities, must be a master manipulator. Fortunately Argile and Tracy had enough sense to steer away from Shemps course of self destruction. HE is a Nexxus of Negativity infecting all those around him and when he finally implodes, which he will, he will suck in anyone around him like a big dark Black Hole. I hope Shemps stoogetes have an epiphany real soon.

Memphis Ed

05-04-2005, 04:58 PM

....my heart is into this thing too much to simply walk away from it, so I am coming back home.

The last sound you heard was the can of woop-*** being opened.

Welcome back, Partner.

spacejock2

05-04-2005, 06:00 PM

For any current (as opposed to ex- or wanting-to-be-ex-) PA authors reading this thread, I just came across a lucid and interesting article on print-on-demand, with a particularly relevant section on 'Publishing on demand':

http://www.caslon.com.au/publishingguide20.htm

(The section I'm talking about is 3/4 the way down the page. The whole article is interesting, but that's the bit which motivated me to post the link here.)

It explains why major bookstores and libraries don't shelve these books en masse, and why they never will.

Oh, and welcome back Ed ;-)

James D. Macdonald

05-04-2005, 06:06 PM

Y'all are probably wondering how Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/travis-tea) is doing, ain'tcha?

Well, the on-line and brick-n-mortar bookstores posted on the 30th of April (twelve copies sold that way last month). (Ninety days my [bleep]!)

385 total copies sold, kids. And that's without a single bookstore signing, flyer, postcard, or bookmark.

"There was so much to love about this book, but my favorite part was the end." -- Karen Mayer

“As you've probably heard Yvonne,” began Penelope Urbain. Seriously brushing a gleaming scarlet tress out of her tearful eye “Bruce has come home from the hospital after his accident.”

“Yes you must be very happy,” said Yvonne sympathetically. “He was badly hurt in that auto accident.”

“Yes he was badly hurt,” responded Penelope honestly. “But he is home now and I am very happy about that.”

“We need to have a very serious discussion about this,” said Yvonne earnestly.

“Yes. We have some very serious things to discuss,” agreed Penelope.

Yvonne Perrin raised her glass and began to gulp down the martini she had ordered and then she signaled the waiter to bring another one. Yvonne drank too much and did not eat right at all and Penelope was starting to get worried about her friend's habits in eating and drinking. Her cheeks were almost as red as her hair already, like red Delicious apples under green leaves which were her eyes and the dark pupils were like little curled up caterpillars in the middle.

zizban

05-04-2005, 06:19 PM

BeeBomb

05-04-2005, 06:20 PM

ED,:hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :Jump: :Jump: :Jump: ;) ah, thank you:kiss: ! Welcome back.

BeeBomb

ResearchGuy

05-04-2005, 06:37 PM

Okay, you're using "aggressive" in a psychological sense; I'm using it in a different sense. ("Take an assertive approach to that double oxer and keep him going forward, forward, forward!" is not a line you're ever going to hear in the horse world, where "be aggressive" means "tackle that sucker!")
In any event, I suspect that the term "active" (as opposed to passive) suffices in connection with trademark protection. The trademark holder must actively defend the trademark, not passively rely on the registration (if it is registered) and on the "TM" notation. (The ground rules differ from those for copyright.) I am not a lawyer, but I've Read Up On This Stuff. For example: "In most instances, adverse users may be stopped without litigation, by a friendly contact from the trademark owner, or a 'cease and desist' letter from the owner's attorney." http://www.ggmark.com/protect.html. "Friendly contact" is not aggressive; it is active, assertive. Also note: "... a business that claims to own a trademark cannot stop others from using the same or a similar trademark unless it is actively using the trademark." (From a Nolo Press summary by attorney Richard Stim, with an URL that I have been unable to paste here.) Notice that word "actively." In discussing how to respond to violation, he begins, "Typically, you begin by sending a letter, called a 'cease and desist letter,' to the wrongful ('infringing') user, demanding that it stop using the mark." This is active, even assertive, not "aggressive," which implies violence or hostility, and is derived from a root word meaning "attack." (See, for example, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.) Sorry to be such a noodge, but words and their shades of meaning are important.

In a return-to-topic conclusion, to heck with PA's rotten business model and exploitation of authors.

--Ken

Savannah Blue

05-04-2005, 07:36 PM

I'm not sure how far we are allowed to go when posting about the private PA board, I'm also not sure if this particular person has upset anyone in the past, but I gotta say this. If it's out of line, feel free to delete it.

There was a lady on the private board that for the past several days has been begging PA to come to their authors defense with respect to the recent bad publicity PA has gotten. She hasn't been rude or disrespectful in any way, just asking for SUPPORT from her publisher. I had been watching her posts with interest and waiting for some reply from PA. I guess we got all the answer we need this morning. She's been banned from both boards. Meanwhile guess who is on the public board, no less, trying to spew his venom with nary a word or banning for him. It's just so sad.

If that lady is reading this board, or anyone can get her the message, please come here. I promise you won't be banned for asking for help. These people will tell you the truth.

Sara
PublishAmerica SUPER sucks!!

NancyMehl

05-04-2005, 07:46 PM

....my heart is into this thing too much to simply walk away from it, so I am coming back home.

Hi, Ed.

Welcome home. :kiss:

Nancy

victoriastrauss

05-04-2005, 07:51 PM

Savannah, you're not out of line--references to what's going on at the private board are fine. It's quoting posts from there that I have a problem with.

Yay, Ed is back! Break out the banners and the balloons! Hey Ed, now you know the truth: you can't go cold turkey with AW. The pull is just too strong...

- Victoria

WhisperingBard

05-04-2005, 07:58 PM

There was a lady on the private board that for the past several days has been begging PA to come to their authors defense with respect to the recent bad publicity PA has gotten. She hasn't been rude or disrespectful in any way, just asking for SUPPORT from her publisher.

Sara, I watched that scenario, too. Folks, this is a lady who has always supported PA and her fellow authors with compassion, caring, and sensitivity. Not a loud-mouth or braggart, just a peaceful, friendly person. Her questions to PA amounted to: "Please, PA, tell us what's going on. Please explain why you are allowing these things to happen and why you won't stand up for your authors. Please." And she made these pleas on the PRIVATE board.

And they banned her.

Yet the likes of Dead Man Rising and his cohorts are still allowed to post.

Now, come on, people on the PAMBs, doesn't *that* tell you *anything*?? Think, damn it!

Ed Williams

05-04-2005, 08:03 PM

This so called status fed his already swollen ego. Now hot having said status is driving him more nuts than he already is....is why Shemp has an ego in the first place? Hell, let's be honest, what has he ever accomplished? Other than make a series of stipid steps in the literary field, nothing. He was a big fish in a tiny, tiny pond, and he couldn't even get that right. Shemp is the kinda guy you want selling Dilly Bars at the local Dairy Queen, because if he's standing behind the counter it forces customers to look at the menu, and that means more sales for the business. My dad always told me that if you recognize a certified loser along the way, be polite but be gone. I think Shemp is the true poster child for that statement.

Moving right along, Victoria, how could I resist being here? Too much good info, too many nice people, too much fun in general to leave it for too long. And Nancy, I would never embarrass you, but you are one special lady. And then some. In fact, if the truth be told, some of the nicest, smartest, and hottest women on the web reside right here. Sounds like a compelling reason enough reason for me to stay.

Okay, I gotta get back to packing, talk to y'all soon!

zizban

05-04-2005, 08:07 PM

n fact, if the truth be told, some of the nicest, smartest, and hottest women on the web reside right here. Sounds like a compelling reason enough reason for me to stay.

Say it, brother! See that's the key here. Find one that is single and available ;)

James D. Macdonald

05-04-2005, 08:08 PM

Now, come on, people on the PAMBs, doesn't *that* tell you *anything*?? Think, damn it!

I think that when management does that to labor it's called a "lock-out."

No probllem for PA -- I bet she's already sold her 75 copies. But her talking that way -- it could get around.

Patricia

05-04-2005, 08:11 PM

Okay, I gotta get back to packing, talk to y'all soon!

Hope you see this before you go, Ed! Welcome back!:Hug2:

WhisperingBard

05-04-2005, 08:13 PM

But her talking that way -- it could get around.
And might actually influence somebody, eh? Lord knows we can't have that!

PA, you suck big time.

MsRasputina

05-04-2005, 08:13 PM

Yet the likes of Dead Man Rising and his cohorts are still allowed to post.

Now, come on, people on the PAMBs, doesn't *that* tell you *anything*?? Think, damn it!

Ah, yes -- I see Shemp managed to stay away for two entire days before coming back, yet again, to have a tantrum all over the Lynn Barry thread.

PA authors, don't you deserve better than this nonsense? Why is this obnoxious, disruptive sociopath allowed to spew venom all over that board? Why do authors who dare to ask polite questions asking for support get banned?

Patricia

05-04-2005, 08:16 PM

I think that when management does that to labor it's called a "lock-out."

No probllem for PA -- I bet she's already sold her 75 copies. But her talking that way -- it could get around.
The one banned has always been open and forthright, and has been vocal about the errors contained in her book. She is liked by most of the "regulars" on the private board. I think she was banned one other time for just a short period.

The last time I really read "into" the messages, it seems to me that the "natives are restless." I can see signs of possible revolt. However, if people keep signing on day after day with PA, it will not miss the exodus that much. That is why it is so important that the legal battles are successful and I believe they will be.

Arkie

05-04-2005, 08:18 PM

I received an e-mail this morning from my computer people indicating that my PA e-mail account, which I asked PA support more than a week ago to delete from the system, since I have been banned from their PAMB, has now been infected with a virus running a trojaned proxy server, and is sending out spam.

For other PA authors that may be monitoring this board that have active PA e-mail accounts. I suggest that you monitor it closely and/or take action to delete the account. The PA e-mail account was never of any value to me, and falls under the definition of another gimmick to promote authors into the PA system.

DaveKuzminski

05-04-2005, 08:29 PM

[QUOTE=Arkie]I received an e-mail this morning from my computer people indicating that my PA e-mail account, which I asked PA support more than a week ago to delete from the system, since I have been banned from their PAMB, has now been infected with a virus running a trojaned proxy server, and is sending out spam.
[QUOTE]

An account offered by a company, one of which's principals ran a computer company, is infected and spamming? This is too much of a coincidence with the typical smear campaigns that PA has condoned or operated before.

zizban

05-04-2005, 08:36 PM

clintl

05-04-2005, 08:41 PM

Welcome back, Ed!

NancyMehl

05-04-2005, 08:42 PM

...And Nancy, I would never embarrass you, but you are one special lady.

Why, Ed. You just made me get teary eyed.

Right back 'atcha.

Did you notice how people reacted at the thought of losing you? People come and go, but not everyone is as valued at you are. You put your heart and soul into this place because you care so much.

We all know it.

Who ever said you can't make real friends on the 'Net.

Not true.

You have. :heart:

Nancy

Gratian Gasparri

05-04-2005, 08:48 PM

Moving right along, Victoria, how could I resist being here? Too much good info, too many nice people, too much fun in general to leave it for too long.

Welcome back Ed! And great radio show from what I heard!

With regards to Shemp, I think he has lost it. He's back on another thread now, attacking Lynn Barry, Jean Marie, and Joyce the Chicken Soup Lady (which reminds me, congrats on your story coming out!) I'm honestly wondering whether it is his ego anymore, or whether it is something more serious. In my line of work, this is the type of scenario where I would suggest we send the individual to a pyschological expert for testing.

I simply see too many parrallels between Shemp's behavior and the behavior of an abuser whose spouse has just left him or her. The insults, the threats, the martyr complex, basically the strong bouncing between extreme reactions "I did this because I care for you" and "You're just a selfish b**** and wait until I show people what you are really like..." for example. As I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, I cannot offer a professional opinion or speak with any degree of certitude. Nevertheless, the parrallels appear to be similar enough that I would want an expert to check them out.

Sheryl Nantus

05-04-2005, 08:57 PM

it is a rather sad situation to see - at least the women are standing up to the bully and not letting him drag them down into the muck where he's wallowing...

again, them women got bigger balls than he does!

... and probably even more cigarette money in the long run!

:D

it still doesn't look good for PA, however - how sad/sick it is that they pull the posting priviledges of their best authors and allow this pathetic loser to keep whining and screaming for attention?

keep on doing it, PA - you're just turning more and more authors away as they see what you're all about.

and it sure ain't about selling books.

unless it's to family and friends, that is.

zizban

05-04-2005, 09:03 PM

You know, this is the kind of behavior of an unstable third world government; silence your loudest voice, let the loonies run free.

Patricia

05-04-2005, 09:06 PM

A group is now on the private boards demanding that PA permanently ban Shemp. Citing that he is an embarrassment to not only the company, but the authors as well. They are declaring that they have no understanding at all, why PA would continue to allow Shemp to post.

Personally, I think the whole PA staff are totally insane or out of the country.

Jr. Staffers -- heads up! Run!

DaveKuzminski

05-04-2005, 09:21 PM

Rumors are that Shemp won't let an expert test him unless he gets to study for the test first. ;)

Regarding the virus, most virii require that you first open the email or an attachment to the email in order to spread it. If the email account isn't being used and it was issued by PA, yet it's spamming other computers, then how did the virus get activated? That's part of the point I was trying to make.

Dolan

05-04-2005, 09:21 PM

Ed is back. That is good for us. Very, very, bad for PA, though.

Now that I've ended my self-centered strike, I find that I have nothing to say.

Savannah Blue

05-04-2005, 09:32 PM

Sparhawk

05-04-2005, 09:33 PM

The new blood on the Authors forum are starting an open revolt "Dump Shemp and his buddies". This effort is being conducted by the new PA Matriarchs. THeir reasoning is sound, logical and dead on. How long until all of them are banned?

THis only goes to proove that PA doesn't want to change. Changing is not in their interest. Dissension or even questions in the rank and file is not and will not be tolerated. The woman in question never, ever bashed PA, she merely asked a simple question that deserved, at least, a condescending reply from the infocenter. When PA balked she posted another thread addressing their silence with some humor.. then POW!! wiped into oblivion. See how many books she's motvated to sell? I gather not too many.

AS Ed so eloquently pointed out earlier. PA is in the state of death throes and striking out wildly at anyone and everyone who even burps out of line.

WhisperingBard

05-04-2005, 09:35 PM

They've removed the "Lynn Barry" thread on the PA public board. Methinks this isn't going to be a good day in PA Land.

bluwinteryfox

05-04-2005, 09:35 PM

:welcome: back Ed. As you know BIG time, you've been missed here. Although those of us on the tour bus http://www.publishamericasucks.com/tour.html have been having a good time with ya.
Ed is back. That is good for us. Very, very, bad for PA, though.
Now that I've ended my self-centered strike, I find that I have nothing to say.
I'm glad you're back too Dolan.

Patricia

05-04-2005, 09:48 PM

I'm glad you're back too Dolan.

Me too, Dolan!

Ed Williams

05-04-2005, 09:57 PM

...but I'm making you the same offer I made to Uncle Jim a while back, if you ever get up around Atlanta let me know, and I'll treat you to a hamdog, PLUS a fried twinkie for desert...

Patricia

05-04-2005, 10:02 PM

They've removed the "Lynn Barry" thread on the PA public board. Methinks this isn't going to be a good day in PA Land.

Did anyone get a screen shot of that last rant?

Dawno

05-04-2005, 10:09 PM

I have it up to SOoTy's 11:24:24 reply

NancyMehl

05-04-2005, 10:15 PM

Hi, Dawno! :welcome:

Dawno and I are sharing an aurora until we can each earn our own....

Nancy

James D. Macdonald

05-04-2005, 10:19 PM

I have it up to 12:06.

But guys -- could I ask that this go in the Take It Outside board?

I think this thread should be reserved for stuff you could take to a DA or the FTC or a TV consumer reporter, and "One Of PA's Authors Is A Nutjob" isn't what I'd think is what they'd run with.

akaa1a

05-04-2005, 10:20 PM

~~I simply see too many parrallels between Shemp's behavior and the behavior of an abuser whose spouse has just left him or her. The insults, the threats, the martyr complex, basically the strong bouncing between extreme reactions "I did this because I care for you" and "You're just a selfish b**** and wait until I show people what you are really like..." for example." Gratian Gaspari

You know, as much as we are disgusted by Shemp's bad behavior, psychosis, and psychobabble...the people I really worry about is his wife and daughter.

I cring when I think of how he must act around them... all delusional and stuff.
I really fear for them.:scared:

Patricia

05-04-2005, 10:21 PM

I have it up to SOoTy's 11:24:24 reply

Sooty was wise in getting the point out that they should ignore him. I agree that it's those long rambling "why you can't own me, Shemp" that may keep him fired up. At any rate, I expect the little men in white jackets to pick him up any day.

Jeff

05-04-2005, 10:25 PM

Welcome back, Ed!! Your absence left a hole here that no one could fill, although some of us tried. :) Good luck on your trip.

DawnO, You need a new nickname: Ace Archivist. ;)

It seems that no one was banned over at the PA boards for the first Shemp meltdown thread. Not the nightie gal who told a fellow PA author in public to "eff" off and certainly not the Shempster himself (perhaps it is a week-long drunk?) who hurled hateful invective at just about anything that moved that night.

If PA will not ban due to that kind of behaviour, it only points out the truth: The only people who get banned are those who dare to begin to question the decisions of PA in any way, shape or form.

The word we are looking for here is CULT.

That there are still authors over there, supporting that company after seeing and understanding all the harm it has done to authors, is disheartening.

But then, everyone has to work out their own karma, eventually.

CaoPaux

05-04-2005, 10:32 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2321.htm

Hello,
I am new to all of this, my first book, XXXXXX, having not long been out (official release date was May 2nd. Although it has sold quite a few through flyers and I sold fifty that I ordered. But, I went to Barnes and Noble and talked to one of the managers about getting my books into the stores and on shelves. She looked it up and said it was a Print on Demand and plus it is a non returnable book, meaning that those that did not sell the publisher would not take them back, so they would or could not order any for their shelves. But they are setting up a booksigning and are ordering some books for that, but any that don't sell I have to buy. Is all that the norm? I mean, how can you get you book onto bookstore shelves and not just on some internet sit and only for "Print on Demand"?

------
Anyone?
Anyone?
:Headbang:

underthecity

05-04-2005, 10:44 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2321.htm Hello,
I am new to all of this, my first book, XXXXXX, having not long been out (official release date was May 2nd. . . .

This same author posted at WN (click here (http://www.writers.net/forum/read/1/22041/21891Vf#22041) to read the thread) and received a string of helpful advice as well as truths about PA. (Not even any direct "bashing" which used to be rampant there--one reason why I moved over here). Even Uncle Jim stepped in and pointed out the usual problems: no returns, low discount, etc. It's a frustrating thread. The author, very much in the honeymoon stage, won't acknowledge any contrary remarks about his publisher. On the other hand, he does have a unique niche nonfiction title (similar to others in its genre, so a real publisher would have been interested), yet B&N won't stock it. Can't figure out why . . .

As usual, we'll see how things are going in six months.

utc

Literary Lola

05-04-2005, 11:15 PM

I just got off the phone with a PA author who has two books with those rat bastard excuses for humanity. He was so depressed and told me that PA is probably the most insidious company he's ever seen.

We all read over here about how they steal people's dreams and invariably someone writes back urging the author to write a better book and submit it to a legit publisher. He did. So the story should be a happy one, right? Not necessarily so. PA has a toxic web that stretches in sad ways.

His first PA book sold very well to his list of friends and family because he was a "published author." The second PA book did much worse and very few of his friends and family bought his book. By the time his third (non-PA) book came out, he didn't even bother sending out postcards because he figured he'd already screwed himself with his prior sins.

He figures that the first time around, his friends bought an overpriced book that had crap-for-all "editing." When his second book came out his sales took a hit because of the old "fool me twice" addage. No one wanted to buy another overpriced book that wasn't even run through the spin and rinse cycle.

His reasoning for not sending out postcards with his third book really tore at my soul. He lamented, "What could I say in a postcard? 'Trust me this time, this book isn't overpriced and has been properly edited.'?" He was so depressed because his PA book not only killed his dreams, but also his credibility with his friends and family.

So, when we say that PA is damaging to one's career, we mean it. Even when one has moved on to greener pastures, the PA filth follows behind like a devoted puppy. This guy did everything right. He wrote a new book, published it with a smallish commercial publisher who has a marketing department, yet he's still fighing the PA stigma. I hope his new publisher sells the hell out of his new book so his faith is renewed.

Yeah, Meiners, you skanky bald wiener, Clod-hopper, and Moe, you all suck rotten eggs through a staw. You laugh yourself to your Grand Cayman bank accounts and screw with people's lives. I can only hope that when you meet your Maker that He edits you right out of Heaven.

Geez, where'd that come from? Yikes.

Aconite

05-04-2005, 11:29 PM

This is active, even assertive, not "aggressive," which implies violence or hostility, and is derived from a root word meaning "attack." (See, for example, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.) Sorry to be such a noodge, but words and their shades of meaning are important.

Ken, let's call it a term of art in different fields and leave it at that, shall we? In my subculture, "aggressive" means what "assertive" does in yours, and I refuse to concede its validity of use just because another field defines it differently.

Aconite

05-04-2005, 11:38 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2321.htm
But they are setting up a booksigning and are ordering some books for that, but any that don't sell I have to buy.

Er...anyone else think perhaps this person is confused, and was told to bring the books to the booksigning? I don't know of any store that would order nonreturnables on the assumption that the author would buy unsold copies after a signing.

akaa1a

05-04-2005, 11:42 PM

~~I can only hope that when you meet your Maker that He edits you right out of Heaven. ~~Literary Lola

I think the alternative "Maker" may apply in this case! When they take the express ride to the "basement", the doors will open and with great surprise WM will ask,
"Why am I here?"

"None of your business", says his Maker.

"Don't I have a right to know what is happening here? Why won't you answer my questions?"

"You have NO rights here, you signed on the dotted line when you chose this path. There are NO answers to questions allowed. Your destiny is mine." says his Maker.

"I want out of here and you can't make me stay! I want my lawyer!"

" I strongly suggest you NOT take that tone with me. Your lawyer is an inept and stipid! Now, make yourself at home...and don't mind the heat...you'll get used to it!"

CaoPaux

05-04-2005, 11:53 PM

Er...anyone else think perhaps this person is confused, and was told to bring the books to the booksigning? I don't know of any store that would order nonreturnables on the assumption that the author would buy unsold copies after a signing.I don't see how a PA author could be confused. After all, they've got Author Support just an email away. *spark* bzzzzzzzzt *smoke* Dangnabit, that's the third Nice-O-Matic(tm) this week. :Hammer:

Dawno

05-04-2005, 11:58 PM

Sher2

05-05-2005, 12:05 AM

Anyone else wish that InfoCenter would say something so we could get a nice line by line from Jim? *sigh* I want to know what the big news from Barnes and Noble is and what about that marketing/media campaign?
Was there a timeline on the B&N "big news?" PA has been known to drop hints before and then never follow through. They speak with forked tongues and wouldn't know the truth if it turned around and bit them. If the big news is that all B&N stores are installing Aggressive PA Authors detectors, PA won't ever announce that.

robeiae

05-05-2005, 12:06 AM

This is active, even assertive, not "aggressive," which implies violence or hostility, and is derived from a root word meaning "attack." (See, for example, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.) Sorry to be such a noodge, but words and their shades of meaning are important.
Ken, let's call it a term of art in different fields and leave it at that, shall we? In my subculture, "aggressive" means what "assertive" does in yours, and I refuse to concede its validity of use just because another field defines it differently.

I'm thinking of making an aggresive assertion right now involving both of you...wanna guess what it is?

:kiss: (that's not it!)

Rob

ResearchGuy

05-05-2005, 12:07 AM

Ken, let's call it a term of art in different fields and leave it at that, shall we? In my subculture, "aggressive" means what "assertive" does in yours, and I refuse to concede its validity of use just because another field defines it differently.
Stated in an admirably assertive way.

:-)

Ken

MacAllister

05-05-2005, 12:08 AM

from here (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/9124.htm):
I finally got on the private board. Things are pretty dismal over there. I hope the great powerful powers that be will reconsider. I do not think you said anything out of line. All those posts are pulled, too. It reminds me a little of Animal Farm, where one animal disappears and no one is supposed to mention them at all. More than sad to me. It is very disturbing. Ouch...it's so difficult to watch this stuff. *sigh*

Patricia

05-05-2005, 12:12 AM

Er...anyone else think perhaps this person is confused, and was told to bring the books to the booksigning? I don't know of any store that would order nonreturnables on the assumption that the author would buy unsold copies after a signing.

There were several authors that set up their book signing with that option. It was the only way, they said, that they could get the signings.

DreamWeaver

05-05-2005, 12:16 AM

I don't see how a PA author could be confused. After all, they've got Author Support just an email away. *spark* bzzzzzzzzt *smoke* Dangnabit, that's the third Nice-O-Matic(tm) this week. :Hammer:And if for some unforeseen reason Author Abuse, uh, Support isn't able to help them, there are myriad fellow PA authors with weeks or even months of publishing experience who seem glad to explain to other, even newer PA authors
- why their books have typos
- why their publisher doesn't edit
- why their book has typos even though their publisher edited it
- why bookstores will shelve their books if they just try one more costly promotional stunt
- why harassment of bookstore managers is a valid promotional technique
- why their publisher is unable to track and provide details of book sales
- why their royalty checks are miniscule
- why their publisher doesn't show up at book fairs, conventions, and publishing conferences
- why worrying about spelling and grammar is an overvalued activity and pointless

The few PA authors who try to point out the fallacies in any of this, often face reactions ranging from a mild poo-pooing to being accused of treachery and snobbism.

Can you tell I just made the mistake of reading some PA board threads? I feel so badly for the authors who are asking perfectly reasonable and intelligent questions, and are either being stomped on or fed unicorn manure (not just ****, but fairy-tale ****).

Off for a zobmi with a Tylenol chaser,
Kris

Aconite

05-05-2005, 12:16 AM

There were several authors that set up their book signing with that option. It was the only way, they said, that they could get the signings.

I'm just astonished that a store would pay up front for nonreturnable books that the author says s/he'll buy if they're not sold at the signing. If the author doesn't follow through, the store's out the purchase price and stuck with the books. Were I the manager, I wouldn't risk it. I'd say, "Bring your own books and we'll set up a table for you."

ResearchGuy

05-05-2005, 12:25 AM

Perhaps y'all 'll take a look at http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11922

(Ooops, maybe y'all did and are averting your eyes ...)

--Ken

Patricia

05-05-2005, 12:28 AM

I'm just astonished that a store would pay up front for nonreturnable books that the author says s/he'll buy if they're not sold at the signing. If the author doesn't follow through, the store's out the purchase price and stuck with the books. Were I the manager, I wouldn't risk it. I'd say, "Bring your own books and we'll set up a table for you."

Well, that was the deals they said they made. I'm sure they were independents. I can't see B&N or other chains doing it, that's for sure. They said that the deal was that they would buy them back at the price the store paid, less shipping.

What is sad, is that some said they offered to "give" the stores the books to sell, free. No return to author for doing the signings. That to me is the highest form of desperation and I feel embarrassment and compassion at the same time for those that did that. I never did find out if any of the store owners went for that "deal." If they did, they should be ashamed.

akaa1a

05-05-2005, 12:31 AM

AUTHORS...a word of advice! Don't burn your bridges!
It would be sad to tarnish your reputation for future projects!

I feel really bad for this author!

What is really interesting is that NO ONE replied yea or nay...
That speaks volumes!

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/9132.htm
Message:
Hey Check this out....

I just received a phone call from a publishing company...stating that they received my manuscript...."**** ** *******"...and wanted to know if I've gotten it published yet. I told him yes...and he wanted to know which Publishing Company....I told him PA....and he attempted to Bashed PA...and I stopped him dead in his tracks....He said he is going to send me some informtion about their publishing company. He said he just ran across my the disk I sent, because they had moved their building....So, tell me what you think about this. There is more...if you would like to know more about this...please e-mail me.

Message:
I just found out that this post will probably be pulled. I'm sorry if It offended anyone. I was just looking for some opinons. Also, I just wanted you all and PA to know I was backing PA and would not stand for someone to call me and Bash The Only Publishing Company who gave me an opportunity to have my work published. PA has given me the opportunity I was looking for.

Kevin Yarbrough

05-05-2005, 12:33 AM

This so called status fed his already swollen ego. Now hot having said status is driving him more nuts than he already is. He cannot accept the fact that the boards are going on without his guiding hand and cheerleading. SO, in his mind he must lash out at those who are taking over. IT's a desperate egomaniacal attempt to reassert himself as an authority figure. To SHemp's dismay, the new blood had already taken root and he was not welcome back with the open arms he, in his constant delusional state, had anticipated.

I don't think it is an ego thing Spar, it is something else. Why is Shemp all of a sudden bashing his own authors? There is something going on behind the scenes that we aren't seeing. He is distancing himself from the PA fold for a reason. Maybe he has some inside info about PA and is trying to get a chasm between them and him. Who knows really, but there is a reason. If it was just an ego thing he would be trying to make things like they were, but instead he is trying his damndest to make people hate him? Why?

He may be stipid but the man is not a complete moron. We just need to find out why he is doing what he is.

Christine, I have a book called "Stipid are from Mars, Darfs are from Venus and the PA Zobmis that love them". It is a story about Stipid Martians, short Venusians, and the PA zobmis that fell in love with them on the PAMB. It is a love story filled with humor, drama, and good old fashion shoot em up horror. But when the PA owners find out about it they set out a trap to stop the love fest from happening. The ingenious trap is quite simple. Meiners, with his pyschiatric know how tells them this--How is a long distance relationship going to work? By the time you joined Nasa, and finished training and finally got on the first trip to Mars or Venus you would be so old you would need Viagra or a case of KY Jelly. But if you really want to, go ahead. We won't forward your royalty check though, to much in stamps. Why your there see if you can get the Mars/Venus arm of B&N to stock your book. I'm sure they won't mind the shipping charge.

Sher2

05-05-2005, 12:38 AM

AUTHORS...a word of advice! Don't burn your bridges!
It would be sad to tarnish your reputation for future projects!

I feel really bad for this author!

What is really interesting is that NO ONE replied yea or nay...
That speaks volumes!

I just received a phone call from a publishing company...stating that they received my manuscript...."**** ** *******"...and wanted to know if I've gotten it published yet. I told him yes...and he wanted to know which Publishing Company....I told him PA....and he attempted to Bashed PA...and I stopped him dead in his tracks....
Holy Guacamole. Can you just imagine how this poor person is going to be feeling six months from now, after he's figured out what PA is, knowing that he had a shot at legitimate publication and blew it? So, so sad.

Patricia

05-05-2005, 12:39 AM

AUTHORS...a word of advice! Don't burn your bridges!
It would be sad to tarnish your reputation for future projects!

I feel really bad for this author!
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-b...lounge/9132.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/9132.htm)

She is one of PA's more adamant supporters.

robeiae

05-05-2005, 12:42 AM

He may be stipid but the man is not a complete moron. We just need to find out why he is doing what he is.
Ed once suggested there was more to this relationship than meets the eye...perhaps he is assisting in clearing out the old authors to remove all talk of bashing and the like from the boards so the newbies will not start doing some independent investigating of their own. I doubt very much that PA ever intended authors to stick around on these boards for as long as some have.

Rob

Eric Summers

05-05-2005, 12:46 AM

DreamWeaver

05-05-2005, 12:50 AM

I'm just astonished that a store would pay up front for nonreturnable books that the author says s/he'll buy if they're not sold at the signing. Perhaps the bookstore manager got the author's credit card number up front?

Kris

Dolan

05-05-2005, 12:51 AM

Uncle Jim: I would like your thoughts on this. Don't you think that there is a ton of valuable stuff (maybe not the S. guy) that shows up on the PAMB? I'm referring to the fact that the PAMB is a part of the whole of PA. PA monitors the boards. They remove posts or threads that they want to remove, anytime they choose.

They do not remove posts that contribute to the deception that is PA's whole persona. If I was thinking of signing with PA and I read a PAMP post where the poster stated in part, "PA is working on a deal with the VA to stock 2,400 - 3,000 copies of my book." this could convince me. I wrote a war book and the VA would be a great place for it. The problem, is that the post is a lie and PA lets it stay and I know that PA knows it is a lie.

I think that if I were gathering evidence to use in some sort of legal action that I would be printing plently of PAMB posts.

What do you think?

akaa1a

05-05-2005, 12:55 AM

Patricia

05-05-2005, 12:58 AM

ResearchGuy

05-05-2005, 12:59 AM

How much would she have to change her book so that it is no longer the same book as the one that PA printed? If you have a book of poetry, could you just add 3 or 4 poems, rearrange the order of the existing poems, give the book a different title, and call it an entirely different book?

- Eric
That would not work. Consider if someone ELSE were to do the same thing, glom a book of poems, rearrange them, add a few, and retitle the book. No dice. Copyright infringement. Changing the actors makes that obvious. PA has locked up the right to sue their contracted authors for 'violation' of their OWN copyright (as PA has contractually secured that property for seven years), and the registration of the copyright makes it possible FOR PA to sue. (No registration = no right to sue.)

However ... what are the odds that PA would notice? (No, I am not advocating taking the chance.) What are the odds that PA could deal with everyone if, say, 5,000 authors were to retitle their works and republish them somewhere else? I mean, if for the sake of discussion, 5,000 of them got the notion all at the same time to do that. Purely as a hypothetical. For the record: do not try it. Even if 5,000 did it, you could be the one they sue to turn into an example. That contract is a nasty piece of work, with no visible loopholes.

--Ken

Dawno

05-05-2005, 01:01 AM

snip.I think that if I were gathering evidence to use in some sort of legal action that I would be printing plently of PAMB posts.

I wonder if they're depending on this (http://www.publishamerica.com/disclaimer.htm) for protection. (link is to the PA site disclaimer - didn't want to post it here and have Victoria chide me :) )

mdin

05-05-2005, 01:02 AM

More signs of crumbling walls (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/12041.htm). I suspected this might happen soon. It looks like PA is making books more expensive. If the promo price is 16.95, that means retail will be 19.95 for a 130 page book. Look for all PA books to be $19.95, and look for PA to start accepting more and more shorter books over longer ones.

Sher2

05-05-2005, 01:03 AM

I think all of this is because PA is trying out the "Butterfly Effect".

It's getting pretty hot in the kitchen so they are desperately looking for ways to re-group, retract, re-direct, and rescind the past. Everytime they think of a GREAT way to kabosh the naysayers...the fallout just complicates any remedy they think will occur.

Corporate Quicksand is unforgiving and most definitely fatal...Shemp is the rope that PA has chosen to grasp as they think they will save themselves. Unfortunately, Shemp's lifeline is tied to a tree that has a huge crack in it.

T I M B E R!!!!!!
A house constructed of lies will always inevitably collapse on itself. The fallout is falling so fast and furious now that the more they try to dig out from under it, the heavier it piles up on top of them. If Shemp was to be their lifeline, God help them. That's like putting the most criminally insane inmate in the asylum in charge. He can't save anybody; he can't even save himself.

Sher2

05-05-2005, 01:06 AM

I wonder if they're depending on this (http://www.publishamerica.com/disclaimer.htm) for protection. (link is to the PA site disclaimer - didn't want to post it here and have Victoria chide me :) )
Hmmmm. I don't remember seeing that before. Of course, there's a lot of stuff on their site I don't recall seeing. Some of it is either new or a case of selective amnesia on my part. I don't think it would afford them much more protection, though, than a condom with a hole in it.

M. Story

05-05-2005, 01:13 AM

I feel really bad for this author! What is really interesting is that NO ONE replied yea or nay... That speaks volumes!

This poor girl sounds scared to death! How many times does she have to apologize? I was actually looking forward to being banned by PA, and she is being hypnotized by the masses and fears being thrown off the MB. It would be one of the best things that could happen to her, but she'll have to get de-programmed before she thinks it's a good thing. A reality check will come with her royalty check.

I read my contract before signing with PA just have most of you should have. I knew what to expect...I don't need other folks trying to tell me different. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHeadbang.gif The same PA mantra recited yet again...<in monotone> I read my contract...PA did what they said they would do...I read my contract...I love PA...they did what they said they would do...<arghh!>
Now, I'm sorry I caused all this ruckus....I didn't mean to.....And I hope I don't banned from the board for it. I was just looking out for PA and the Authors at PA. Well, here I go again....I guess I'll take another longer break this time from the boars. "Boars"--Freudian slip? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonidea.gif

I just want folks to look out for some decitful people out there. The contact I received today could have been a hoaks....(spelling???.) Now that my name is out there like many of you....people could just be out there to get any and all of us. Just be careful. Get a clue! Know your enemy! Yes, it's your very own publisher--be afraid--be VERY afraid of the POD people! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif

So, goodbye for now PA Authors I wished the best for us all.

I'm signing out for a good long while.
Again, sorry if I started something. I didn't mean to. Just trying to help. I guess I made a big mess. Next time I should just keep my mouth shut....

Sighhhhhh. Still apologizing and feeling bad.

Aconite

05-05-2005, 01:13 AM

However ... what are the odds that PA would notice? (No, I am not advocating taking the chance.) What are the odds that PA could deal with everyone if, say, 5,000 authors were to retitle their works and republish them somewhere else? I mean, if for the sake of discussion, 5,000 of them got the notion all at the same time to do that. Purely as a hypothetical.

The odds they'd notice? Just about nil. The odds they'd do something about it if they did? Nil.

The problem, of course, is that to get published by someone legit, you have to show you have the legal right to publish that work. I suppose you could get around that by self-publishing, but what's the benefit there?

ResearchGuy

05-05-2005, 01:24 AM

Oh, fer Pete's sake, here it is. A highly aggressive disclaimer, I might add.

Do not consume alcohol while reading this site. Do not read this site in excess or for an extended period, as it is not intended for long-term use. Do not drive or operate machinery while reading this site. Avoid using this site while using similar sites, as overdose may occur. In event of accidental overdose of site, immediately contact your local Poison Control Center. Refrigerate partially read pages in an air-tight container at 40 degrees fahrenheit or below. Disinfect surfaces with which site may have come in contact. Do not attempt to use printouts of this site as a ladder. Do not run while reading this site. Do not rely on this site for any purpose other than that for which it is expressly intended. Do not allow site to come too close to fire or other source of high heat, as combustion and injury may ensue. This site is provided on an as-is, where-is basis, with no warranty of merchantability or suitability for any purpose. Consult a physician in event of dizziness, light-headedness, heart palpitations, muscle weakness, or any other symptom occurring at any time proximate to the reading of this site. Site intended solely for external use and not to be taken internally and not to be swallowed whole. Not intended for children three years of age or younger. Handle printouts with care in order to avoid paper cuts. If reading on screen, avoid prolonged sessions in order to prevent eye strain. Keep this and all sites out of the reach of children. Imagined edification lasting longer than four hours, though highly unlikely, is serious, and requires immediate medical attention. Other occasional, but rare, side effects have occurred from reading this site, including stomach disorders, headache, delayed backache, and transient onomatopoeia. These statements have not been evaluated or approved by the FDA.
--Ken

eighter

05-05-2005, 01:27 AM

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1413700985.01._SCTZZZZZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1413700985/ref=olp_product_details/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance)There Ain't Enough Front Porches
by Molly Marx Brent

Edition: Paperback

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/icons/medium-orange-arrow-right.gifReviews, recommendations, and more: http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/view-product-details.gif (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1413700985/ref=olp_product_details/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance)
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/price-at-a-glance-left.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/price-at-a-glance-right.gifList Price: $19.95
New (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1413700985/ref=olp_pg_new/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=new) from $17.94http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/low-price.gif
Used (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1413700985/ref=olp_pg_used/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=used) from $18.40
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/buybox/bl-01.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/buybox/br-01.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/browse-by-type.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/mtt-all.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1413700985/ref=olp_tab_all/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=all)http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/mtt-new-on.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1413700985/ref=olp_tab_new/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=new)http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/mtt-used.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1413700985/ref=olp_tab_used/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=used)http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/mtt-sell-yours-here.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1413700985/ref=olp_tab_sell-yours-here/104-2085056-6815120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=sell-yours-here)http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/spacer.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/nav/3rd-level/right-corner-cap-top.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/spacer.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/spacer.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/spacer.gifhttp://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/spacer.gif New 1 to 9 of 9 http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/offerings/help-howdoesthiswork.gif (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/1060536/104-2085056-6815120)Always pay through Amazon.com's Shopping Cart or 1-Click. Learn more about Safe Online Shopping (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/10412241/pop-up/ref=olp_wa_2/104-2085056-6815120). PriceThis was taken from Amazon a few minutes ago. Last week there were 19 (11 new and 8 used) Now there are 14 total) This number goes up and down frequently. I make copies and have proof with dates. Some under "used" say new when you read the description. When the new numbers increase, I will post again.

Since I haven't had a contract in a year and I haven't been paid for these books, wonder where they got new ones after they were sold out. When they say "none available" how do they manage to get more when the distributors say "out of stock."

Amazon says they have Market Place for "used" books and it is impossible to get it removed but these are NEW books.

At the time my contract was cancelled there were only 6 new ones available. I have proof that more than that have been sold.

I did receive one royalty check in early 2004. It was figured wrong, but nothing at all since

Publish America says that they notified all the online stores that my book was not longer available.

I sent the Maryland AG the e mails from the online book stores saying PA DID NOT NOTIFY THEM. They are all dated AFTER the e mail from PA saying they had notifed them.

I know the Maryland officials really don't care but NOW but someone is going to pay attention one day real soon.

The IRS did seem very interested. I was promised an investigation.

Molly

Aconite

05-05-2005, 01:30 AM

Oh, fer Pete's sake, here it is. A highly aggressive disclaimer, I might add.

No parts of your site are serviceable by the end user. Do not open the back of your site and attempt to service it. Doing so may void your warranty and end life as we know it. Do not handle your site after eating glazed doughnuts without first washing hands. Do not swim in your site for half an hour after eating, and certainly do not pee in your site.

DreamWeaver

05-05-2005, 01:34 AM

...and certainly do not pee in your site.Well, now we know almost no one reads the disclaimer.

Kris

keltora

05-05-2005, 01:35 AM

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHeadbang.gif The same PA mantra recited yet again...<in monotone> I read my contract...PA did what they said they would do...I read my contract...I love PA...they did what they said they would do...<arghh!>.

Imhotep--Imhotep--Imhotep...

PA gives you Boils...

ResearchGuy

05-05-2005, 01:40 AM

... wonder where they got new ones after they were sold out. When they say "none available" how do they manage to get more when the distributors say "out of stock." ...
Some folks print pirate copies of books. There was a fly-by-night publisher that used to do that (maybe still does) with reports my former employer published. They set high prices on stuff we gave away, but which was legally under copyright and which had our own ISBNs (but no copyright registration, for reasons I will not go into). We learned of that when we found them listed at Amazon.

--Ken

astonwest

05-05-2005, 02:10 AM

There were several authors that set up their book signing with that option. It was the only way, they said, that they could get the signings.
Because a store doesn't want to have to purchase non-returnable books. Speaking from experience, an author REALLY doesn't want to have to wait around (cough cough, six to eight months, cough cough) for the store to pay them for any books sold from the stash they brought in.
I'm just astonished that a store would pay up front for nonreturnable books that the author says s/he'll buy if they're not sold at the signing. If the author doesn't follow through, the store's out the purchase price and stuck with the books. Were I the manager, I wouldn't risk it. I'd say, "Bring your own books and we'll set up a table for you."
My guess is that they have personal knowledge of the author, or the manager is familiar with them (the author comes in and purchases books on a regular basis). The deal as they have it is basically a "return policy"...
They said that the deal was that they would buy them back at the price the store paid, less shipping.
Oh, my! That's even worse...
Figure, if the store ordered through a distributor, that's only a 20% discount (not sure how shipping is taken care of on those)...
If they order direct from PA, 40% discount, but tack on shipping (which is equivalent to highway robbery).
It looks like PA is making books more expensive. If the promo price is 16.95, that means retail will be 19.95 for a 130 page book. Look for all PA books to be $19.95, and look for PA to start accepting more and more shorter books over longer ones.
I'm going to vomit again...
I thought $16.95 for a 109 page book was terrible...$19.95 for 130 pages is atrocious...

Patricia

05-05-2005, 02:25 AM

victoriastrauss

05-05-2005, 02:26 AM

Since I haven't had a contract in a year and I haven't been paid for these books, wonder where they got new ones after they were sold out. When they say "none available" how do they manage to get more when the distributors say "out of stock."Amazon isn't selling the book as new; the "new" designation comes from its Marketplace suppliers. These folks often lie--I know people who've ordered books described as "new" from Marketplace suppliers and have received obviously used books. Also, at least some of these suppliers list anything with an ISBN, whether or not the book is actually available.

All of my out of print books have "new and used" listings from Marketplace sellers. The Arm of the Stone, which has been OP for two years, has 9 new copies listed. So I don't think you can assume that this means your book is still in production.

- Victoria

lindylou45

05-05-2005, 02:38 AM

....my heart is into this thing too much to simply walk away from it, so I am coming back home.

Ed's back!!! Yipeee!!!! :partyguy: :snoopy:

Look up in the sky! It's the pickle plane!!!

Julian Black

05-05-2005, 02:51 AM

I don't think it is an ego thing Spar, it is something else. Why is Shemp all of a sudden bashing his own authors?Because most of them see what a loser he is, which is probably the thing he fears most. He wants to be seen as important, knowledgeable, and well-connected--that way, people might just overlook the fact that he's unemployed and his books sell just enough for cigarette money. He's a loser, and he's furious that not only do his former PA buddies openly acknowledge it, but find it amusing. He's a laughingstock.

So if he can't be the leader of the group, he has to fight against it. What amazes me is how much power he ascribes to Lynn Barry as "leader" of the PA boards; I see it as a reflection of how much power he thought he once had. Losing that (or the illusion of it) makes him angry.

One thing I am curious about--In his attacks on Lynn, he's harped on her supposed failure to make a go of her involvement with Independence Books. Did HB ever get IB status? Someone like HB, who has spent so much time currying favor from the Stooges and setting himself up as PA's staunchest defender would no doubt be intensely jealous if he were not one of the "select."

M. Story

05-05-2005, 02:53 AM

From a new author on the PAMB...

I am disappointed, knowing that book stores are very unlikely to carry my book. That is a huge handicap. However, I have a target audience for my book and plan to aggressively market and promote.
I don't just want the thrill of having my book published. I want this to be the start of my career as a writer. I have a lot at stake, and I feel that , at least, PA is a way to get my foot in the door. Hopefully, things will take off from there.
</FONT>

Let us pause for a moment of silence as this poor soul's writing career dies on the PA-vine....

(Taps is now playing....
KABOOM, KABOOM (21 times)
Look at the planes overhead flying in the missing man formation....

Patricia

05-05-2005, 02:58 AM

From a new author on the PAMB...

Let us pause for a moment of silence as this poor soul's writing career dies on the PA-vine....

I don't see it as her writing career dying. Just that the book won't launch her career tied up with PA. PA is not her foot in the door of her career.

Sher2

05-05-2005, 03:03 AM

I don't see it as her writing career dying. Just that the book won't launch her career tied up with PA. PA is not her foot in the door of her career.

No, it's not dying but she's going to have to go back to square one and start all over again. This may well seem like a small death to her. Assuming her writing skills are good, well, cowards (Stooges) die many times before their deaths; the valiant (good writers) never taste of death but once.

Patricia

05-05-2005, 03:15 AM

This may well seem like a small death to her.

Right, we've tasted that death. I like the idea that should she happen on this site, the words "square one" and "start over," mean that hope isn't lost -- that she won't think of her entire future career as dead. And if she is, as you said, a good writer, it won't be.

Jaws

05-05-2005, 03:17 AM

Nah, the indemnity clause means that the author already said, "It's my fault, I'll pay for it!" any time someone sues PA.
FREX:
Random citizen: The villain in How Purple Was My Pony has the same name as me! I'm suing you, PA!
PA: Would twenty thousand dollars be enough to make you go away?
Random citizen: Sure would!
PA (to author): You owe that guy twenty thousand bucks. Pay up!
This isn't quite correct. Instead, it would look like this:
Random citizen: The villain in How Purple Was My Pony has the same name as me! I'm suing you, PA!
PA: Would twenty thousand dollars be enough to make you go away?
Random citizen: Sure would!
PA pays random citizen.
PA (to author): We just paid someone for a claim you caused. Pay us our $20,000, plus costs and attorney's fees, for a grand total of $27,391.17.
This is nontrivial: Indemnification does not create direct liability (although the circumstances stated would support direct liability, at least at a theoretical level). Indemnification requires one to reimburse. Plus those pesky expenses, including paying off the sharks.

Sparhawk

05-05-2005, 03:21 AM

Because most of them see what a loser he is, which is probably the thing he fears most. He wants to be seen as important, knowledgeable, and well-connected--(snip) He's a laughingstock.

So if he can't be the leader of the group, he has to fight against it. What amazes me is how much power he ascribes to Lynn Barry as "leader" of the PA boards; I see it as a reflection of how much power he thought he once had. Losing that (or the illusion of it) makes him angry.

(Snip) Someone like HB, who has spent so much time currying favor from the Stooges and setting himself up as PA's staunchest defender would no doubt be intensely jealous if he were not one of the "select."

That was my take too, his ego couldn't stand the fact that he wasn't really mourned. But I also considered why he would choose such a stupid way to depart. If he simply handled it as such;

"Ok Pirates, I didn't want it to come to this but the Bashers have finally done it; Those evil &_(*&_)*&'s have threatened me and endangered the lives of my wife and child. For the protectioin of myself and my family I am dissolving my association with this board and will no longer be proactive in promoting or defending Publish America.

To my friends who have helped and supported me I thank you for everything. I'll see you all in the funnies.. Yo ho ho! keep fighting the good fight Pirates!"

He would have been a freakin hero and been able to ride off into the Sunset like John Wayne. The boards would have posted about his heroic sacrifice and in a few weeks he'd be forgotten like yesterdays headlines. Mission Accomplished. Shemp would be gone and the new blood would still have taken over.

THere was no need for the antics; that's the missing piece of the puzzle. It can drive a sane person insane trying to figure out the motives of a mainiac. I think that's what we're trying to accomplish. He had a two year old hissy fit and his two friends are backing him to the hilt. Why?? Who knows.

Kevin has had more experience in dealing with Shemp than I have; and I've had the pleasure to observe Kevin roasting HB's literarty hiney with flaming rebuttals. If he beleives Shemp has an ulterior motive, then it is a credible probablility. God only knows what.

Oh, by the way.. PA stinks !!! (Just to keep things on topic)

Sparhawk

05-05-2005, 03:49 AM

ResearchGuy

05-05-2005, 04:01 AM

If no one will talk to this poor woman then I will. ...
I wonder if she had submitted it to another POD or vanity press.

--Ken

lindylou45

05-05-2005, 04:03 AM

Everybody, please bear with me as far as the website PASucks (http://www.publishamericasucks.com) is concerned. We just got it uploaded today and I'm just learning about updating, etc.

The tour has been updated and I've added a few more things as well. We're having some issues with some graphics, but I'm hoping to get that fixed shortly.

JennaGlatzer

05-05-2005, 04:10 AM

So I don't think you can assume that this means your book is still in production.

Ah, yes, all true-- except that I was able to buy Molly's book, new, from a retailer about 6 months ago.

Sparhawk

05-05-2005, 04:10 AM

I wonder if she had submitted it to another POD or vanity press.

--Ken

If she replies I'll let ya know

JennaGlatzer

05-05-2005, 04:11 AM

Proud of you, Spar. Considering how pro-PA she is, you may not get the response you'd hope for, but I think it's great that you're willing to stick your neck out and try to get the truth to her.

roach

05-05-2005, 04:12 AM

Amazon isn't selling the book as new; the "new" designation comes from its Marketplace suppliers. These folks often lie--I know people who've ordered books described as "new" from Marketplace suppliers and have received obviously used books. Also, at least some of these suppliers list anything with an ISBN, whether or not the book is actually available.

Yep, this is how it works. It's also worth keeping in mind that the people listing your book might not actually have it on hand. Some people will list books and when they receive an order they'll buy it from another bookseller and ship that copy instead.

roach

05-05-2005, 04:15 AM

Ah, yes, all true-- except that I was able to buy Molly's book, new, from a retailer about 6 months ago.

The retailer might have gotten ahold of copies before it was "out of production". I don't know the circumstances of Molly's book but I know that when I was working for the bookstore/warehouse, we got boxes each week of "new" books, which were really remainders or review copies or copies of books that people had never read.

Ken Schneider

05-05-2005, 04:24 AM

Spar, Any P.A. atuthor that posts an e-mail addy gets a message from me.

I pointed and truthful message.

How else can you reach the new signees?

I tell them what I know to be true, and let them know if they buy their own books, it's vanity in reverse.

Edward-Emerson-Jefferson-Davis Williams IIIIIIIIIIII.

Good to see you back my man.

JennaGlatzer

05-05-2005, 04:31 AM

Hey Roach,

Here's how I understand it-- tell me if I'm getting something wrong.

The whole idea of POD is that copies aren't printed until someone orders them, one by one. I believe that Ingram had ordered 2 copies of each PA title at one point to keep in stock in their warehouses in case of special orders (they don't do that anymore). Aside from that, there should be no other copies in existence until they're ordered by a bookstore or customer directly.

Looong after Molly's rights were returned, both Jim and I were able to get new copies of her book, and I believe I still could get another (if I have time today, I'll check). There should never be any remainders, any excess stock, because there's no print run of a PA book. (Hence the 49 copies dust-up, where PA was letting people out of contacts only if they bought the 49 copies that they had supposedly already printed, which was bogus because that's not how POD works.)

Ken Schneider

05-05-2005, 04:34 AM

Jenna, I already bought my 49 copies three times. Shucks!

And, would someone tell me how to p[ut a picture in the post? Please, oh please oh, plllllease.

Gratian Gasparri

05-05-2005, 04:39 AM

Ugh, you guys won't believe this. I just got back from open house at my daughter's school. This included a children's book fair hosted by the school library. Scholastic had this nice big sale going on children's books -- 30% off the local bookstore's cover price. The other seller was a local children's author selling her book.

After stacking up on some scholastic titles, I made my way over to the local children's author. She had short dirty-blond hair and was in the latter part of her middle-ages. I wonder if that's J. FitzGerald McCurdy, I said to myself. For our American friends, McCurdy is more-or-less the closest thing to JK Rowling that Canada has produced.

Then I caught the price of the book -- $22 Canadian. My heart sank. I knew she wasn't McCurdy, and something I had a sense of who her publisher was. Nevertheless, I didn't want to embarrass her. So I waited until she was done with some other potential customers and more or less alone. Then I introduced myself as another local author interested in children's literature.

We chatted sometime about being authors and our experiences finding a publisher. "It's really difficult finding a publisher," I said. "Receiving rejection slip after rejection slip as you refine and tighten your manuscript."

"I know what you mean," she replied.

"But once you're in, they really look after you. They're flying me to Alabama next week to tape a show about my book and at the end of the month they have me doing a book-signing at a major book fair in Chicago."

She then shared that she spent quite a bit of time promoting her book at local fairs and whatnot, and that her book was doing quite well. "How is your book doing?" she asked.

"Okay," I replied.

She smiled.

"Keep in mind I'm only a mid-list author with a mid-sized niche publisher," I continued. "So we're only talking around 4500 copies."

"Mine has done about 500," she said, her smile gone. "But it has only been out since October."

"That's when mine came out as well."

She asked me who my publisher was, and I told her. She then mentioned that she was with "a new publisher out of Maryland." The ominous sinking feeling returned. "Their name is PublishAmerica," she said.

My face must have given me away. "You've heard of them?" she hesitated.

"Yes," I replied.

She then asked me what I had heard. Not wanting to embarass her, especially at the school fair, I gave her the URL for this website. I also quietly shared that every PA author I know has run into problems. She replied that her experience with PA had generally been positive, except for the high cover price.

I brought up the no-return policy, and she didn't think this was a problem because her book was stocked at the local Chapters. I didn't want to mention that it is not stocked at other Chapters or Coles bookstores in the area. So I just mentioned that my book, which was about the same size as hers, retails for $10 and left it at that. She gave me a bookmark with her website on it and we agreed to keep in touch by email.

What I really would have liked to ask, but didn't feel it was appropriate given our surroundings, is what type of profit she was making on her books. She wasn't turning over books as quickly Scholastic, but I'm sure I saw her sell one or two during the hour I was there. And the kids seemed genuinely thrilled to meet a published author.

Still, $22 Canadian. Given that the Canadian dollar hovers at around 80 cents US, that's about $17.60 US per book. Subtract the cost of the book, shipping & handling, and I would assume a cut on the part of the school library, and I don't know how this poor author could possibly be making anything off the couple of books she sold.

Nevertheless, she claims she is happy with PA, so I'm interested in getting her side of the story. I hope she will show up.

Gratian Gasparri

05-05-2005, 04:42 AM

Still, $22 Canadian. Given that the Canadian dollar hovers at around 80 cents US, that's about $17.60 US per book. Subtract the cost of the book, shipping & handling, and I would assume a cut on the part of the school library, and I don't know how this poor author could possibly be making anything off the couple of books she sold.

I should probably mention that she had a couple dozen copies on hand, and she claimed to live near the school which is one of the wealthiest parts of our nation's capital, so I think we can safely assume that she bought her books from PA at one of the larger discounts available.

DreamWeaver

05-05-2005, 04:47 AM

It is obvious that she's convinced the crazed hoards are going to target her next.Maybe they ARE targeting her, in email. That would explain the apparently causeless backpedaling and apologies. I think most of us recognize that private emails can sometimes be much more vicious than the worst that goes on the boards. And for PA, that is pretty scary.

Kris

M. Story

05-05-2005, 04:49 AM

No, it's not dying but she's going to have to go back to square one and start all over again. This may well seem like a small death to her. Assuming her writing skills are good, well, cowards (Stooges) die many times before their deaths; the valiant (good writers) never taste of death but once.
I really do agree with you. The only way her career would die a slow death is if she pinned all of her hopes on PA. When her entire post is read, it does appear that she may be open to other options if they would further her writing ambitions. If she uses PA's methods of promoting the book herself, begging & pleading with bookstore owners to stock her book, and taking a chunk of her grocery money to purchase her own books, well, I think she'll be ready to look for a real publisher. PA may be a good learning experience for her, however, as it was for me. The thrill of holding your book in your hand fades quickly when reality sets in.

triceretops

05-05-2005, 04:50 AM

He, he. I just heard a resounding tripple-face-slap (stooge style) and instantly knew that was Ed was back. We are whole again. Love ya', bro. Now I better get outa here afore Barb finds me and lays on with the taser.

Tri

roach

05-05-2005, 04:50 AM

Here's how I understand it-- tell me if I'm getting something wrong.

Jenna, that's right as far as I understand how POD is supposed to work. I guess the reason I'm throwing out alternatives is that I have a hard time understanding why Lightning Source would keep printing copies after they've been told to stop. At least the people I've been working with at LSI have been very professional and responsive.

M. Story

05-05-2005, 05:03 AM

If no one will talk to this poor woman then I will. THis is terrible, she has done nothing wrong yet she seems frightened....

I'm happy that you and kas are reaching out to this woman. She seems unreasonably fearful, and I do hope she replies. Right now, though, she does sound like she may be too paranoid to listen to reason. The PA PP (pod people) may have gotten to her and given her the heebie jeebies with all of their warnings about bashers. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif

Sheryl Nantus

05-05-2005, 05:07 AM

I'm happy that you and kas are reaching out to this woman. She seems unreasonably fearful, and I do hope she replies. Right now, though, she does sound like she may be too paranoid to listen to reason. The PA PP (pod people) may have gotten to her and given her the heebie jeebies with all of their warnings about bashers. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif

it does sound like that with her immediate apologies and grovelling at their feet, asking not to be banned.

NO ONE deserves that sort of treatment.

NO ONE.

PA authors - how can you respect a company that has so little respect for YOU? They ban some of the best and nicest authors and allow jerks to insult, swear and basically threaten the rest of you?

Don't stand for it - walk away.

'nuff said.

PVish

05-05-2005, 05:07 AM

The other day I visited a high school creative writing class and talked to them about writing. A lot were interested in being published, so I wrote the word "Scam" on the board. Under it, I listed names of the three biggest scams in publishing. Poetry.com and American Book Publishing were two. Anyone who doesn't know the other one has to buy Icees and bake brownies for all.

Anyhow, 25 kids who'd never before heard of a certain publisher now know.

Fighting behind the lines,
PVish

Sher2

05-05-2005, 05:12 AM

M. Story

05-05-2005, 05:13 AM

Ugh, you guys won't believe this. I just got back from open house at my daughter's school..... She then mentioned that she was with "a new publisher out of Maryland." The ominous sinking feeling returned. "Their name is PublishAmerica," she said.
I don't know what else to say, but, "Oh my gosh!!!":Wha:

eighter

05-05-2005, 06:01 AM

Do the math on this. It is the same date and amounts copied from the one and only royalty statement I ever received. My book release date was Sept 23, 2003.

2/27/2004

retail discount sales price quanity royalty per cent royalty amt.

Special 19.95 13 8.00% $17.63

40% 11.97 19 8.00% 18.19

total amount of royalty check $35.82

I don't know how anybody got a 40% discount, my local bookstore could not unless they ordered a large quanity. He had so many problems trying to order that he finally called and wanted me to bring him some. He had around 32 internet orders before it was released. It was for sale on PA on Sept 16. I ordered them but they forgot to send them and it was the end of Oct before I received the order.

About Amazon. My friend ordered "last one in stock" to see what they'd do. They ordered at least twice after my contract was cancelled and they were notified.

Ingram reported 6 on hand and I can't remember exactly but it was in the range of 30 sold until I posted info on the board and then suddenly all info became "unavailable."

Amazon does not have it for sale now but I had to go to the big wigs to get it removed.

Barnes and Noble removed it immediately by my request when I sent them a copy of an e mail I had received from PA saying my contract had been cancelled.

I sent the Maryland AG copies of the e mails where the online bookstores said they had NOT been notified that my book was no longer in print after the date when PA said they had notified them.

Jenna and Jim are not the only ones who have ordered from brick and mortar stores recently and received new books.

Even Market Place online stores reported "none available" for a long time.
Then recently it suddenly reappeared. They reported "no record found" when I'd check with them. Now they say I can order as many as I want.

If they are used or new I don't know. I do know that 5 were sold last week.

I contacted Lightning Source my e mail was forwarded PA. I contacted Ingram and was told that they were requested not to make any info available on this ISBN.

If everything is legit, why do they refuse to answer my questions?

Molly

James D. Macdonald

05-05-2005, 06:50 AM

Can you just imagine how this poor person is going to be feeling six months from now, after he's figured out what PA is, knowing that he had a shot at legitimate publication and blew it?

Let's not feel sad yet. For all we know the call back was from Vantage.

How much would she have to change her book so that it is no longer the same book as the one that PA printed?

Don't even think about it doing that without competent legal advice.

I think that if I were gathering evidence to use in some sort of legal action that I would be printing plently of PAMB posts.

What do you think?

If I were planning legal action against PA, I would certainly be collecting their messageboard posts, paying careful attention to what's allowed to stay and what they remove.

This isn't quite correct. Instead, it would look like this: Random citizen: The villain in How Purple Was My Pony has the same name as me! I'm suing you, PA!
PA: Would twenty thousand dollars be enough to make you go away?
Random citizen: Sure would!
PA pays random citizen.
PA (to author): We just paid someone for a claim you caused. Pay us our $20,000, plus costs and attorney's fees, for a grand total of $27,391.17.

Wouldn't it be more likely:

Random citizen: The villain in How Purple Was My Pony has the same name as me! I'm suing you, PA!
PA: Would twenty thousand dollars be enough to make you go away?
Random citizen: Sure would!
PA (to author): We're gonna pay someone for a claim you caused. Pay us our $20,000, plus costs and attorney's fees, for a grand total of $27,391.17.
PA pays random citizen $12,608.83 ($20,000 minus $7,391.17 costs and attorney's fees).
Ah, yes, all true-- except that I was able to buy Molly's book, new, from a retailer about 6 months ago.

I'm certain that a subpoena to Lightning Source International will tell exactly how many copies of Molly's book they printed, and on what days, and where they were shipped.

I guess the reason I'm throwing out alternatives is that I have a hard time understanding why Lightning Source would keep printing copies after they've been told to stop.

Why are you assuming LSI was told to stop?

MartyKay

05-05-2005, 06:55 AM

from here (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/9124.htm):
Ouch...it's so difficult to watch this stuff. *sigh*

Well.. you don't need to now, cos that page is gone

Christine, I have a book called "Stipid are from Mars, Darfs are from Venus and the PA Zobmis that love them". It is a story about Stipid Martians, short Venusians, and the PA zobmis that fell in love with them on the PAMB.

Hey! Look at my sig! "Zobmis are from Mars, Darfs are from Venus" is MY book!! Trademark violation!! Trademark violation!! :roll:

postshy

05-05-2005, 06:55 AM

Who knows why PA does anything? Their reasoning is quite beyond me. I recently questioned my royalties and got a nasty "tone" letter. My February royalty statement showed "0". I told them that I was sure that I had sold a few books, but would not tell them how I knew. I would not even post it on this Board because I know they lurk here. I simply said I intended to contact the IRS. Just a few days ago I got a cheque for $3.39 (to cover a few books?). No details or apology letter accompanied the cheque which was dated 4/1/2005. It was also drawn on the Federal Ban (whatever that is). I think they left off the "k". I put the cheque to good use and, by that, I do not mean I cashed it. Ann Crispin/ Victoria Strauss could give you more details.

Welcome back, Ed, I almost stopped posting after you quit. A little humour is welcome sometimes. I have never posted on the PA Boards and I now know why - it's scary over there.

Just for the record, I have three books under review. Should I be successful, I will write under a pseudonym. PA will not be making a cent off my name if I can help it. Dig a hole, PA, and bury the book, but if you continue to make a few sales, I will be watching for my miniscule royalties, you had better believe.

James D. Macdonald

05-05-2005, 07:22 AM

I read my contract before signing with PA just have most of you should have. I knew what to expect...I don't need other folks trying to tell me different. When I say other folks....I'm talking about BASHERS!

Don't worry about the "bashers" telling you different, my friend. I see your book is coming out this summer. By Christmas "reality" will have told your different.

James D. Macdonald

05-05-2005, 07:45 AM

Still reading the threads that were linked from here, I find this (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2321.htm):

If the wholesaler takes 50-55% and B&N take 40%, there sure isn't much for us, is there? What if they bought 500 and only 200 sold in 90 days, then the books would have to be bought back, the warehouse and B&N would still get their 40%, so that means a blow to the royalty check. Big publishers are not going to take a loss, so their authors sure as heck get it deducted from their royalty checks. In this business, you have to sell a lot to get known, make money and that means all authors no matter who their publisher is. A book has to compete with all other books no matter if it is on the shelf. You have to promote yourself to promote your book. That's what I have learnt since January 2005 and my book came out. So, hey, I know that the check I get from PA is mine and no warehouser getting a share of it.

Now this is the point where PA's Infocenter should jump in to say, "No, that isn't how it works," but you know they aren't going to.

So let me correct a few of this writer's misapprehensions:

First, I think this poster thinks that the wholesaler takes 55% and B&N takes another 40%, for 95%. That isn't the way it works at all.

Here's the way it really works: The publisher sells the book to the wholesaler (e.g. Ingram) at a 55% discount. The wholesaler then sells the book to the bookstore at a 40% discount. The wholesaler's profit comes from the 15% difference. Perhaps the book sells, perhaps it doesn't. If the book sells, well and good! The bookstore made a profit. If the book doesn't sell, the bookstore sends it back to the wholesaler for a full refund. At least they didn't lose any money (other than their overhead and the hidden cost of shelving a book that didn't sell where another might).

For that book that sold, the author gets a royalty based on the cover price, regardless of the discounts that happened along the way.

Let's take a typical $15.00 trade paperback, and an author with a 10% royalty, and follow it along its path.

Publisher sells the book to the wholesaler for $6.75 (this is still significantly more than it cost the publisher to print the book).

Wholesaler sells the book to the bookstore for $9.00. Wholesaler pockets $2.25 gross profit. (Or will pocket the profit, if the book isn't returned. They'll have to wait a bit to see.)

Bookstore sells the book for $15.00, and pockets $6.00 gross profit.

For this sale, the author gets $1.50 royalty. This is paid by the publisher out of that original $6.75.

If the book never sells then the bookstore gets their $9.00 back when they return the book to the wholesaler, the wholesaler gets their $6.75 back when they return the book to the publisher, and the publisher eats the loss. The author gets nothing, but doesn't owe anything either.

Don't get me started on "reserve against returns." Short version: Everything shakes out eventually. But "eventually" can take a while.

roach

05-05-2005, 07:51 AM

Why are you assuming LSI was told to stop?

Well I presumed that after Molly contacted them they'd at least investigate. But I've been watching Mr. Smith Goes to Washington today and so I might just be infected with Jefferson Smith's naivete.

MartyKay

05-05-2005, 08:56 AM

From the PA thread referred to by James a few posts ago. Later in the thread is this:

With PA our books will look the same 7 years from now as the first time we saw them.

Yes... tacky covers, poorly edited...

Actually, the whole quote is:

Rose makes a valid point in the POD is the wave of the future. I have a personal friend who published a book several years ago. It has done exceptionall well, selling into the millions. About 3 years ago his publisher contacted him and said they were no longer printing the book, and offered to sale him what they had left on their shelves. My friend, of course, bought the remaining copies. Now he is having trouble selling them as they pages are yellowed. Who wants to pay full price for a yellowed page book? With PA our books will look the same 7 years from now as the first time we saw them.

And yes, that's true. Because they print on demand, "new" books look the same regardless of age. That's right. The three that people buy seven years after you publish it will look as good as the other nine people have bought over that time.

The "friend" who bought the remainders.. why? The book was "selling into the millions" -- err.. why would a publisher who had a million selling book decide to drop it? Wouldn't that be a good reason to reprint? Pages are yellowing? How long between "Several years" and "3 years ago"? A million seller, say ten years ago that after seven years the publisher decided that this book (which presumably earned out the advance) wasn't worthwhile printing anymore. Let alone that to SELL a million copies would imply multiple printings anyway -- who prints a million copies of a book for the first run? I mean, other than Harry Potter and the Darfing Zobmis?

I think this poster may be mistaken*&398347236 NICE-O-MATIC FAILURE IN LINE 23