Archive of the NEPAT [Archive] - Page 39 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Sher2

03-03-2005, 01:45 AM

I know my PA friends are getting pretty mad at me right now for what I am writing. I am only trying to let other authors know that their book WILL NOT be in bookstores. No one told me. I want them to know that they will get a big fat NO, when approaching a brick and mortar bookstore and ask them to stock their book. Actually they shouldn't have to ask, it should be the publisher who does that. (Read above paragraph No. 1)
If you are prepared to push and sell your own book, then go for it. If you want your book to be in bookstores across the nation, DON'T SIGN A CONTRACT WITH PUBLISH AMERICA. THEY WILL NOT PROMOTE YOUR BOOK. YOU HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING. NOW, I HAVE WARNED YOU, DON'T GET MAD AT ME WHEN YOU REALIZE THIS, AFTER THE CONTRACT!
PA, SORRY, FACTS ARE FACTS! YOU SHOULD BE HONEST WITH YOUR AUTHORS.
If anyone gets mad, Bonnie, it's at their own peril. What you're saying is the unvarnished truth and anyone who cares about their own writing would do well to pay attention. PA DOES lie, and facts ARE facts. Fact is, no PA book is going to make it past the author's own circle of friends and family and his/her own limited promotional abilities. One thing I am not is a salesman, and it was never my intention to try and turn myself into one. I thought I had myself a real publisher, which was going to distribute my book to retail outlets. What a moe-ron I was. :(

Sher2

03-03-2005, 01:48 AM

**Claps hands and squeals with glee!!**
At the risk of being labeled a "whinner," what about MEEEE?!! :banana:

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 01:49 AM

...or has the guts to admit the truth will be mad at you, always remember that. And as for this:

Never published before.
The majority of our books that are sold retail are sold in physical brick and mortar bookstores. Tens of thousands of people and hundreds of our authors across the nation have purchased PublishAmerica books from physical brick and mortar bookstores.Bonnie, you and I are both Southerners, and the polite term for this is weasel wording. You know, writing something to look one way when it actually means another. Most weasel wording comes from used car joints, pyramid sales schemes, and now the current masters of the "art," Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem, better known as the New Three Stooges.

bikrpreacher

03-03-2005, 01:57 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11744.htm

Message:
Anybody know what's going on with Ingram? I've had comments from several indie bookstores and libraries that they still aren't servicing PA authors.

I imagine this affects sales at amazon, b&n and all their affiliates, too.

Any comments or knowledge?

And if PA staff is monitoring - perhaps they could shed a little light.

Thanks.

Yes, does anyone know yet anything at all about this? What IS going on with Ingram?

Kevin Yarbrough

03-03-2005, 01:59 AM

Let me think about that one Sherry. I will get back on later.

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 02:02 AM

To you who have books published other than Publishamerica:
Does your publisher furnish you with number of sales?
If so, how often?

With Our Sunday Visitor, I get a monthly email update and I think semi-annual print report and royalty check.

With Saint Anthony Messenger Press (SAMP), my print report and royalty check is semi-annual, except for foreign translations which are annual. Nevertheless, by a sheer act of Divine providence, I get two to five telephone reports a week. The reason for this is twofold:

1) My book was experimental to begin with, creating an entire new sub-genre within the Catholic writing community. So the publisher was much more willing to experiment in order to find a niche.

2) The publisher with whom I originally signed, Servant, was bought out by SAMP in the months between when I signed the contract and when the manuscript was due. Servant then became an imprint of SAMP. Nevertheless, the two appealed to vastly different markets and the style of each is different. My book was seen as one of the more likely candidates to bridge the gap between the two audiences, so it became the guinea pig for the marketting department.

For these two reasons, SAMP's marketting department and I keep in almost daily contact vis-a-vis sales figures.

triceretops

03-03-2005, 02:08 AM

In the next couple three days or so the PA boards should be lit up with declarations and questions regarding royalty checks. In fact, tempers might fly in the face of Author Support. It would be wise to watch for this.

In additon, first time royalty checks will probably astound and insult the newest authors, leading to a flood of emails to PA headquarters. This is the time to strike with any other small barb we have in the arsenal (While the three stooges are besieged with mass voices of discontent). Alas, a final sword thrust into the belly of the beast to pierce the heart (an admitedly small target) of the creature.

Book contracts (or books published) should take a perceptible nose dive this month. Let's see if that happens.

Tri.curious.alot.

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 02:14 AM

...re getting stocked by Barnes and Noble...

I hesitate to respond because I think we all get different results. BUT, I did the entire bit required by B & N, sent in a book, etc. After that I received a letter that they will not work with POD publishers or publishers who will not allow their books to be returned. I'm not sure why they couldn't have told me this up front before I sent in everything - BUT they did keep my book even though I asked for it to be returned. Yes, I know, PA is NOT a POD publisher and the entire bit but try to tell B & N that. They don't want to hear it.Doesn't PA realize that allowing their authors to go out on these hopeless quests only causes more disallusionment and discord?

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 02:15 AM

Do real publishers have 1-800 numbers for their authors?

Not sure about mainstream publishers, but I have one for Our Sunday Visitor and one for Saint Anthony Messenger Press. But I also have extention numbers to qualified people with names who have worked for the respective publisher for years.

CaoPaux

03-03-2005, 02:16 AM

What IS going on with Ingram?

From Lightning Source's press release back in October 2004: "It is our intent to have the plan fully implemented by the end of the first quarter of 2005."

So, any time now. :popcorn:

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 02:18 AM

...re getting stocked by Barnes and Noble...

Doesn't PA realize that allowing their authors to go out on these hopeless quests only causes more disallusionment and discord?

no, because they've already BOUGHT THE BOOKS...

see, PA authors get told from the very beginning that there's nothing stopping them from having their book in the local B&N except for THEM and THEIR SALES TECHNIQUE!!!

remember about two hundred pages back when I pointed out that PA authors were actively encouraging each other to order in PA books and never pick them up? Because, the logic went, then the bookstore would HAVE to put them out on the shelf and then money would be henceforth flowing towards the writer, doncha know.

of course, that backfired 'orribly and now you can't do that - but it illustrates the depths to which PA encourages their authors to violate almost every rule of common sense and civility to try to do the impossible - get their books into a REAL bookstore.

I mean, I could have sold so many more if I had just... tried.

that and a Canadian Loonie plus my royalty check might just get me a chai tea at Starbuck's.

maybe.

yeahsureyoubetcha.

:ROFL:

bikrpreacher

03-03-2005, 02:21 AM

Ed, if PA tells everyone the truth, they will lose many, this way they only lose one or two. That's why they don't tell the truth. It gets more and more sad by the second.

By the way, I've been sick, so the emailing will go on for at least one more week. I am saying now that if any PA authors lurking here want to, happy or not, email me if you want. I am not emailing the latest ones, so, if you've been with PA for one year or less, if you don't write you just will not be counted. Last call kids, then it's over and out okay? One more week. Can't say I didn't offer. The email for this is: bikrpreacher@gmail.com

James, I remember a while back you mentioned that about small printers, but sure didn't think to look at the box my books came in. That is interesting. Anyone out there care to contribute to this? Where were your books printed?

Chris

Sher2

03-03-2005, 02:26 AM

In the next couple three days or so the PA boards should be lit up with declarations and questions regarding royalty checks. In fact, tempers might fly in the face of Author Support. It would be wise to watch for this.
In additon, first time royalty checks will probably astound and insult the newest authors, leading to a flood of emails to PA headquarters. This is the time to strike with any other small barb we have in the arsenal (While the three stooges are besieged with mass voices of discontent). Alas, a final sword thrust into the belly of the beast to pierce the heart (an admitedly small target) of the creature.
Book contracts (or books published) should take a perceptible nose dive this month. Let's see if that happens.

I don't know how much effect it's going to have on the beast's body parts, but I predict they'll be bringing in extra temps to monitor and purge the message boards.;)

Lisa Y

03-03-2005, 02:28 AM

I received my PA royalty statement today. Notice I didn't say "I received my check.":Shrug:

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 02:32 AM

I received my PA royalty statement today. Notice I didn't say "I received my check.":Shrug:

ouch.

worse than MINE?

:Hug2:

Patricia

03-03-2005, 02:34 AM

In my (ahem) astute observations during the editing process, I got the distinct impression that the editors were working from home. I know for sure, before PA's recent move, that they did not have room for the editors that were supposedly employed. While reading one of their old ads for employment on the web, it indicated that they could work at home if they met certain PC requirements.

Is this old news? Has it been discussed before? If that is true, it would really account for a lot of the confusion.

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 02:37 AM

Are you in one of these categories? Why should I use Publish America and never

self publish?

Never published before.

The majority of our books that are sold retail are sold in physical brick and mortar bookstores. Tens of thousands of people and hundreds of our authors across the nation have purchased PublishAmerica books from physical brick and mortar bookstores.
I don't know about you but this told me that my book would be in bookstores.
This doesn't say that people wanting books will have to ORDER them if they go into a bookstore. It says SOLD in (physical) brick and mortar bookstores.

That's exactly what it was meant to make you think, Bonnie. Don't let anyone tell you that Larry and Willem aren't good at what they do. Sure, the books are SOLD in the bricks-and-mortar stores. At the special order desk. The person (Uncle Fred) buying the book hands over his credit card right there, the bookstore takes the credit card number and orders the book. That's sold, retail, right in the store! Literally true, actually misleading and deceptive. No shame to you -- around 11,000 other people have fallen for the same dodge. There was a heartbreaking story over on WritersWeekly -- I'll see if I can find it.

It also didn't tell me that I would feel like an idiot when I walked into the brick and mortar bookstores and asked them to stock my book. They always reply NO! Not Publishamerica books, we cannot stock them. We are not allowed to order them unless we have a sale. Time after time, I got this. Finally I just gave up.

That happens to a lot of folks. PA hopes that those people will shut up and go away. That's why the big emphasis on the 10,000 happy authors, and how the people who can't get their books into stores are a handful of lonely whiners who didn't try hard enough. PA wants its authors to believe that everyone else is having no trouble getting books into physical stores. That's why the fastest way to get a thread deleted and a poster locked out is to mention that bookstores won't stock your book. PA wants you to despair, to shut up, to go away, and not to warn the next batch of starry-eyed newbies that come along about the reality.

"Tens of Thousands of people and hundreds of our authors across the nation have purchased Publishamerica books from physical brick and motar bookstores"

Have tens of thousands of PA books been sold in all?

My information is that they've sold about 635,700 books. Of those, it's possible that tens of thousands have been special-ordered in bookstores. (It's even approaching a million sold ... just not approaching it very fast.)

Oh, while everyone's here -- have y'all read the San Antonio Current (http://sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12073075&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=484045&rfi=6) story? That was the first major press on PublishAmerica. That's where you can read:

PublishAmerica was founded in 1999 by Willem Meiners and Larry Clobber on that very premise. The two "were book writers themselves, and got very discouraged. They thought they either had to pay to be published or never be published," recounts Miranda Prather, executive director at PublishAmerica.
I know my PA friends are getting pretty mad at me right now for what I am writing. I am only trying to let other authors know that their book WILL NOT be in bookstores. No one told me. I want them to know that they will get a big fat NO, when approaching a brick and mortar bookstore and ask them to stock their book. Actually they shouldn't have to ask, it should be the publisher who does that. (Read above paragraph No. 1)

Bonnie, you opened a bookstore and stocked PA books. That's support like few others are willing or able to do. That gives you the right to say anything you like, because you have the real-world experience. You've earned it.

UPDATE

Found the story at WritersWeekly (http://forums.writersweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=2570&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15). Read the post from "YoYo," dated Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:34 pm. Isn't that the most heartbreaking thing you ever saw?

T42

03-03-2005, 02:39 AM

Whoohoo I got my royalty check today. I made a whole $1.36. Funny, it was one of the ones sold on Amazon so the price was 15% off the original so authors make 8% and PA pays probably $3.00 to have it printed and walks away with at least $12.00. How sweet for them. I bet they are mad that I didn’t order any myself then they could have made almost $15.00 per book. They got a pretty good scam going for themselves wouldn’t you say?

I went to the board at PA to see if anyone else was talking about their check but didn’t see anything. Maybe they are not allowing them to talk about it…..hmmm

Well, got to get dinner ready and then watch lost. See you all later….What should I do with my money? I don’t want to spend it all in one place….

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-03-2005, 02:42 AM

What do you all think? Would having something like this up on Writer Beware, Absolute Write, and P&E help educate some folks who are considering signing on with PA?It can only help.

I'm surprised that such a condensed clearing-house of "How It Really Works" data points doesn't already exist out there on the 'net--if it doesn't, it should.

bikrpreacher

03-03-2005, 02:49 AM

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 02:50 AM

Sheryl, I distintly remember that PA put out an email saying that since they were taking out an ad in the New York Times that they were running a special promotion saying that even the books that the authors ordered (during that time) would be included in the royalties.

Bonnie

That was the last royalty period. I think they were afraid to send one this time due to all the publicity - or I hope that's the case anyway.

Sarashay

03-03-2005, 02:57 AM

I think a page on What Real Publishing Is is a fantastic idea. I think the problem is, it used to be much easier to sum up in one sentence--"Don't pay money to be published" or "Money flows toward the author." HowEVAH, now that we have slimebags like Publish America sneaking their way around those rules with dollar advances and such, it would be a good idea to have a detailed example of standard operating procedures for actual publishers, so people know what OTHER red flags to look out for besides paying money up front. Consider--even if PA goes down, there's nothing stopping somebody else from stepping in and pulling the same scam.

'shay

T42

03-03-2005, 02:57 AM

You know, truthfully, I'm a bit depressed about this royalty thing and I bet I won't be the only one. We can laugh about the dollar checks, but I didn't even get one. I really feel like I sold my soul to the devil here. Isn't that terrible! I wasn't expecting to get rich, but honestly thought I'd get something. Well, maybe I'll get something tomorrow...surely they won't cheat me out of that little 8%, I can't imagine it. I really can't, this is all very sad. Don't stop posting your amounts, I'm not upset about that, just sad that I didn't even get $1.49, I thought I'd at least get that.
What a world.
Chris, if you didn't get your royalty check before the book came out then you might have grounds to terminate your contract. You are suppose to get that before the book goes public. I got mine 2 weeks before the book came out. (online) Sorry, I meant your $1.00

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 02:58 AM

Ed, with regards to PA causing discord among their authors through its behavior, I imagine that this is what PA wants. I know it sounds strange, but in my experience this is how most cults operate. They constantly recruit everyone and anyone, then herd them into the middle where they are administered ever-increasing loyalty tests. The object is to shake loose the majority and narrow it down to the "true believers" who will do anything for the group. Everyone else is just in transition.

T42

03-03-2005, 02:58 AM

Sorry, Chris I meant your $1.00

Patricia

03-03-2005, 03:00 AM

When PA goes down, any educated guess about how long it may take to get our rights reverted?

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 03:08 AM

The object is to shake loose the majority and narrow it down to the "true believers" who will do anything for the group. Everyone else is just in transition.

Most of the authors have already bought their 50 or 100 copies. They won't produce another nickle for PA, so who needs 'em? Kick 'em out the door. Leave the core of Stockholm Syndrome survivors, boosters, and shills to pull in the next batch. There are still plenty of PA authors whose books haven't yet come out to fill the boards with happy-talk for the new marks to see and read.

Soon the 11,000 happy authors will be 15,000 happy authors, then 20,000 happy authors. Happy, happy, happy!

mdin

03-03-2005, 03:12 AM

NancyMehl

03-03-2005, 03:14 AM

Well, it will be interesting. Will PA pay me for the books I ordered from Amazon (and received) after they cancelled my contract and told me there were no books available????

Hmmmmm. Still watching the mailbox.... :Shrug:

Nancy

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 03:16 AM

That will be very very telling. I hope you saved all the paperwork for the proof that after they said there were no books you bought them, and didn't get royalties for it. That would seem a slamdunk way to kick PA's ***.

bikrpreacher

03-03-2005, 03:16 AM

XThe NavigatorX Thanks! I didn't think of it that way...I'll be able to wait till next week to get depressed then, appreciate it. Now maybe I can sleep.
I remember looking forward to royalty time, now I look forward to seeing Atlanta Nights stats. LOL, oh well, tomorrow is another day!

Chris

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 03:16 AM

Ann, some authors received emails stating that any letters from them would be thrown away unread. Not all authors got these, just trouble makers I think.

I got an email telling me any further correspondence from me would be discarded unread -- they didn't specify whether by snail mail or email.

Woo hoo! I must be a trouble maker!!! :box:

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-03-2005, 03:22 AM

Oh, while everyone's here -- have y'all read the San Antonio Current (http://sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12073075&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=484045&rfi=6) story? That was the first major press on PublishAmerica.That's an excellent article. Very thorough, and even-handed.

Too bad about the headline, though--it doesn't reflect the controversy at all, but just makes PA sound...effective.

Lisa Y

03-03-2005, 03:22 AM

ouch.

worse than MINE?

Sheryl, unless YOU owe THEM money, yes!:cry:

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-03-2005, 03:27 AM

I got an email telling me any further correspondence from me would be discarded unread -- they didn't specify whether by snail mail or email.Wouldn't they be in breach of contract, somehow, if they threaten to discard all future correspondence unread? To take your money and then tell you to shut up--there's got to be a way that's contractually wrong (in addition to just being morally wrong. Ha. "just").

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 03:34 AM

Wouldn't they be in breach of contract, somehow, if they threaten to discard all future correspondence unread?

One would think so.

paipa

03-03-2005, 03:35 AM

HB Marcus Rumors Need To Stop

The rumors: HB, were your utilities disconnected?

Did you start a fire by falling asleep reading page one of a PublishAmerica book?

Were you rushed to the ER with a Budweiser bottle lodged in your throat while you tried to get that last tiny drop?

Did DC police catch you planting spyware in the computers of the book reviewers at the Washington Post?

Was Mr. HB Marcus attempting to get loans from various banks to buy the Los Angeles Times in order to stop those Atlanta Nights stories?

Say it ain’t so--HB was trying to audition for the position of a WNBC news anchor in order to quell the rumors of the PublishAmerica scandal as reported in January ’05?

Also, Frank Weaver (Crab Cakes & Pepper author) did not run over HB Marcus as he was trying to launch his paddleboat in his kiddy wading pool.

Finally, Mr. Marcus was NOT in intensive care after eating a meal at Puddles author Lynn Barry’s diner? These and other rumors are completely false.

The truth --At great expense, PAIPA (PublishAmerica Is ProAmerica) “If you’re not with PublishAmerica you just go without”, flew Mr. HB Marcus, FIRST CLASS, to Los Angeles, CA and in particular, to Beverly Hills, so that he could wine and dine with the top echelon of the entertainment industry. Mr. Marcus, through the assistance of PAIPA, (PublishAmerica Is Pro America) “If you’re not put-put-puttering along with PA on the publishing highway, your putter’s not working.”

In our desire to bring much-needed positive attention to the published works of over 11,000 happy, jumping, screaming, thrilled and getting wealthier every day from PA, authors, to Hollywood’s attention. PAIPA (PublishAmeica Is ProAmerica) “PublishAmerica is Populating America’s garages with thousands of books” is pleased to announce the formation of the First PAIPA Literary Agency! (PublishAmerica Is Powerful Attraction). We proudly introduce HB Marcus as our first client. His presence in Hollywood has caused such a stir that he is not only close to signing one seven figure production deal with a major motion picture studio, but he is also very close to signing multiple deals with multiple studios in the seven finger range. When noted film director Steven Spielberg was asked about HB Marcus’ talents, Spielberg replied, “Say what?” After a two-hour marathon meeting with Mr Marcus, when Clint Eastwood was asked about his noted writing style, Mr. Eastwood exclaimed, just before rushing from the building, “You can’t put that kind of talent into words!” Action movie producer Joel Silver, (Matrix and Lethal Weapon movies) when asked about HB Marcus’ literary talent simply responded “You call that writing?”

But, sadly, it was not all good news for Marcus’s stay in Beverly Hills. For tragedy struck HB Marcus and the noted thespian Jamie Farr “I had to be funny one time in my life” and the PAIPA “PublishAmerica Is Building Millionaires one writer at a time” entourage. Prior to attending the 77th presentation of the Annual Academy Awards these esteemed artists met with some unexpected drama. Upon their arrival to the Red Carpet, for some unexplained reason, the Motion Picture Academy had NOT been informed of the attendance of HB Marcus, Jamie Farr and PublishAmerica! We had rented an 18-wheeler along with several stretch limos to bring the HB Marcus’s and Jamie “I’ve got to remember a funny joke sometime in my life” Farr to the Oscars. The 18-wheeler was packed full of books from the 11,000 (and growing by the split second authors) by PA. But we now feel that the traditional publishers have launched a grand conspiracy against us.

For as you know, the biggest threat today to the traditional publishing world is Larry Clobber, Willem Mirrors, and Miranda Pruder. As members of PAIPA tried handing out copies of some of these great titles to the arriving dignitaries…security would not allow this to happen. A scuffle broke out when Jamie Farr attempted to convince security guards that he was Oscar nominee Jamie Fox. Security alleges that HB Marcus (who later commented that the February ’04 PA convention wasn’t as populated with armed guards) tried to pass himself off as Mel Gibson. Members of the LAPD surrounded the rest of the entourage. They gladly took copies of our books as they escorted us on a guided tour of the Hollywood police station.

Now we are calling upon all sincere, dedicated and ever-growing ranks of PA authors to boycott the film industry until each and every member of PAIPA, HB and Jamie Farr receive an apology by every single member, living and dead, from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences. For it is our goal, that in 2006, all 5 movies nominated for Oscars, will be scripted by or based on original works of PA authors. We are currently scouring the city for a penthouse to hold the literary agency for we know that the American film going audience is simply begging to see the works of PublishAmerica on multiplex screens across the country and around the world.

Sincerely,

PAIPA

PublishAmerica Is Promising Actio

Sher2

03-03-2005, 03:52 AM

Bikr:

Since those checks went out on the 28th, it'll take several days for them to make their way across the entire country. I bet the majority of PAers will get them on Saturday or even Monday. The farther you live from a major airport, the longer it will take.

Besides, if PA has a mailing machine, all they really need to do is meter the envelope on the 28th, and they could wait until next week to physically drop it in the mail. No one would know.
I'm only one state down from the House of Scam but, so far, no check. I know the bare minimum number of copies that were bought, too, so if my check isn't in the double digits ( :roll: ), I'm going to be earning myself a doozie of a "tone" letter. :ROFL:

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 03:56 AM

Wouldn't they be in breach of contract, somehow, if they threaten to discard all future correspondence unread?

I bet they at least open it to make sure it doesn't contain a check.

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 03:58 AM

...seems to be taking hold, read the below:

I took the number and address this morning and spoke with Diane Simoski (B&N) this afternoon...

She was patient with me at least and brought my book up on her computer while we were talking... At least she was interested in my material and I told her of the advertising that I've done already as well as what I have going on currently.

Despite all that, she says that the fact that Publish America books are non returnable is a big obstacle to their carrying them in their stores. Additionally, they don't want to even think about carrying anything on consignment. That is, as she said, "An accountant's nightmare!"

Basically, if we can get PA to issue some books on a returnable basis, then we can talk some more and it won't be such a waste of time to send in a copy of my book for approval... Otherwise, they will take orders for my books, but not stock them.Anyone wonder what the Vegas odds would be on PA deciding to accept returns?

:Headbang:

Renee

03-03-2005, 04:04 AM

Even if PA books were returnable, it would not help. I don't understand why people think it would (except some need to place the blame on anyone but PA), with the dead-end PA gives their authors. Makes no sense.

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 04:07 AM

Anyone wonder what the Vegas odds would be on PA deciding to accept returns?

Ed, you silly-billy! I'll take your money. PA already accepts returns! Lookee here, at those six Independence Books! Why those are returnable (if the bookstore stands on one foot, holds its mouth just right, and says "Mother May I") right now! Now you owe me a Big Mac (hold the pickles).

And right you are, Renee -- even if the non-returnable thing vanished tomorrow you'd still have to get past the high cover prices and the short discounts. And if they ever fixed those, you'd have the sloppy editing, lousy covers, poor design, and lack of marketing.

They'd need some big changes there in Frederick if they wanted to become a publisher.

(Oh -- lookit this! Atlanta Nights is available in on-line bookstores from sea to shining sea and around the world! Abebooks, Blackwell UK, BooksAMillion, Barnes & Noble.com, Amazon, Blackwell US, Pickabook UK, Amazon.ca CAN, Amazon.co.uk UK, Alibris, Borders, and Target all list it! And it didn't cost us one thin dime! Hey, Memorial Day is coming! Atlanta Nights makes a perfect Memorial Day present!)

Renee

03-03-2005, 04:09 AM

There are people on the Independence label who do not even have their books in stores (guess who those books sales went to, uh yeah family). Now that's sad.

Literary Lola

03-03-2005, 04:11 AM

PA, SORRY, FACTS ARE FACTS! YOU SHOULD BE HONEST WITH YOUR AUTHORS.
Bonnie
What, and ruin a perfectly well oiled scam? Sheesh, Bonnie, what are you smokin'?

I've said my peace now I'll have a cup of coffee and settle down again.
's okay, dearie, here's a crumpet with a healthy slathering of jam-o-scam.

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 04:20 AM

Ed, you silly-billy! I'll take your money. PA already accepts returns! Lookee here, at those six Independence Books! Why those are returnable (if the bookstore stands on one foot, holds its mouth just right, and says "Mother May I") right now! Now you owe me a Big Mac (hold the pickles)....but I have never laughed as hard at one - you should be the humor writer around here!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-047.gif

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 04:33 AM

Last weekend at the height of the frenzy, there were 22 reviews. By Monday, they's dropped down to 13, just now there are 17. Ed's is back.

Oh, and the campus Trade books buyer has purchased two copies <g>

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 04:43 AM

Jump in Amazon Ranking!
The Amazon ranking for "Wilfred and Harold's Dinner Party Disaster,"
went from an over 2 million ranking to a ranking 325,824 as of March
1, 2005. This book is on the fast road to success!

http://www.publishamerica.com/whatsnew.htm

.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 04:45 AM

P&E and I are certainly interested in presenting information on what constitutes real publishers. We stand ready to offer space and links to other sites.

By the way, I have a JPG file showing a statement by PA that specifically states their books are in bookstores. Not just available, but on the shelves. Who wants a copy? It's a large file, just over 280,000 bytes.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 04:48 AM

Atlanta Nights' Amazon ranking is #211,673 right now. Guess we're on the faster road to success....

Are Amazon ranks still based on a sample of new orders?

That is, on day x if XX copies were ordered, and the sample day was day x, the ranking will go up, but if the sample day is day Y, then the ranking will either not change or go down?

astonwest

03-03-2005, 04:58 AM

My book went into hardcover when it passed the 2,000 mark, but really, it's the paperbacks that sell.
It is an Independence title, returnable for a set period of time after a store orders (maybe 6 to 8 weeks, I forget).
If you click on "Online Bookstore" and look under choices, you'll see ten pages of Hardcover choices... so quite a few authors have reached that milestone.

Something that was missed (at least I think so...sorry, was out of town, and was quickly skimming through many pages) in the original discussion of this tidbit...the original poster made it sound as if your book comes out in hardcover if your book sells more than 2000. I know of at least one book that came out in hardcover edition well below that mark...the "ten pages of Hardcover choices" make it sound like there are tons of PA authors who've sold more than 2000 copies...

Paperbacks sell more than Hardcovers? You mean, people care about the cost? Golly gee, who woulda thunk?

Kevin Yarbrough

03-03-2005, 05:09 AM

...but I have never laughed as hard at one - you should be the humor writer around here!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-047.gif
If he does that would put me and you out of the job Ed. Anyways, I think Uncle Jim is way to busy to take on the job of humor writer around here. It is OK Jim, me and Ed will do it.

Jaws

03-03-2005, 05:52 AM

When PA goes down, any educated guess about how long it may take to get our rights reverted?
It depends. Really.
There are so many different ways that PA could "go down" that it would be more confusing to list them, with their various permutations, than for me to just smile, pat you condescendingly on the head, and say "it's a lawyer thing, dahhhling."
If the bankruptcy system is involved in any way, you're talking nine months or more after filing, unless you get a veeeeeeery understanding trustee and PA's bankruptcy attorney screws up royally.
It gets even more fun if the bankruptcy is involuntary. There you're looking at 24 months after filing, if you're lucky.
If PA voluntarily winds its operations up after having paid all of its obligations to third parties—and that means all of them, including rent, taxes, utilities, outstanding printer's bills, royalties accrued but not yet paid, employee compensation, and more other matters than I can name conveniently—then return should be as soon as the paperwork clears the Maryland Secretary of State. In those states with which I've dealt (not Maryland, I'm afraid), that's 30-45 days.
If there's a criminal matter and anything needs to be kept as evidence, there won't be a release until after all appeals and collateral attacks have completed. Of course, the mere fact of the rights would probably not be relevant evidence, so this is unlikely; however, physical copies probably would, and that could complicate a true release of the rights.
I feel a little bit like Fizzini. "I'm just getting started!"
I realize that doesn't really answer your question, which is the point: There are so many variations that it can't be answered at this time.
Remember, I'm a lawyer. Never use five words where fifty will do.

Patricia

03-03-2005, 06:11 AM

It depends. Really.

I feel a little bit like Fizzini. "I'm just getting started!"
I realize that doesn't really answer your question, which is the point: There are so many variations that it can't be answered at this time.
Remember, I'm a lawyer. Never use five words where fifty will do.

That's enough to give me food for thought, thank you much.

I know of a person in the late 90's who got scammed by Deering and her
"Company." Took 3 years for the dust to clear. I remember thinking at the time, how can someone get taken like that? Duh, just because I didn't pay up front, doesn't make a bit of difference. A real shame.

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 06:11 AM

I realize that doesn't really answer your question, which is the point: There are so many variations that it can't be answered at this time.

Would it be fair to say "It would be easier on you all around if you got your rights back before PA went down"?

Patricia

03-03-2005, 06:14 AM

That occurred to me also--thinking on it.

akaa1a

03-03-2005, 06:17 AM

Royalty Reality:Smack: has set in at PA Land. A PA friend of mine has sent this to me to cheer everyone up on this darkest of days!

I got my PA check today,
That was so small, I said, "No Way"!:faint:

But there it was, a tiny speck
Of money earned, Oh what the heck!
I wadded it tightly into a small ball,
And heaved it a good one against a brick wall.

It took a big bounce right into the trash
"Good riddance", I growled, my teeth in a gnash.
So I'm off for a shot of a really stiff rum:gone:
To cheer myself up and stop being so glum!

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 06:23 AM

....of their books themselves, you get stories like the below, this is sad:

Some of the book stores that I have tried to get to set up a signing and order my book have told me that there is only one copy "for the whole world" available through Ingrams. I do not know what this means to book stores that look up one of our books to order, but they were pretty negative when they look it up and see that. I wish I had more information. I am really ignorant in the promoting a book line. I think a lot of us are. I have gotten the suggested book for promotion from PA, but it does not tell how to deal with the snobbish book store giants when they say something like that. I just wish there was more instruction on marketing. I would do it, I try to do everything that book says to do, but I am not a born marketer. I have learned a little, but I am still in the dark as to whom these big book stores buy from. Some of them suggest I go straight to Ingrams and other places. I wish there was a book on just exactly whom to contact and where. It is like going on a big voyage without a map and no stars to guide. Perhaps I am the only ignorant one. So, if any of you have a way to point me in the right direction, please do so. I will do most things, short of standing with one foot up on a light post. I am too old for that.No wonder some of the PA authors walk away from writing altogether after enduring situations like this. Know what? I hope as fervently as anyone does that Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem will visit some government enforced housing for an extended period of time soon, but I also think they all deserve good old country a**whuppins' as well for putting people through misery like this...

Sher2

03-03-2005, 06:39 AM

....of their books themselves, you get stories like the below, this is sad:

No wonder some of the PA authors walk away from writing altogether after enduring situations like this. Know what? I hope as fervently as anyone does that Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem will visit some government enforced housing for an extended period of time soon, but I also think they all deserve good old country a**whuppins' as well for putting people through misery like this...
There's something drastically wrong when they send poor ol' Martha Stewart up the river but leave these three to run amok in Frederick to do as they darn well please. They need *** whuppins' AND a good long stint in Club Fed. :Headbang:

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 06:44 AM

....and it appears that these PA authors are not happy in the least. I have a feeling that this thread:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8032.htm

...will not last very long, given its general "flavor"...

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 07:03 AM

Well, that's because Martha lied and PA, uh.... Um, nevermind.

Of course, when Miranda returned to Maryland after her schooling and other education, she looked for a job. She would have worked in a pharmacy, but she couldn't figure out how to get those bottles in the typewriter.

Of course, I've heard that Larry would moonwalk around the PA offices by dropping his pants and sliding across the linoleum on his butt. Left a terrible slime trail, too.

Still, we should have some sympathy for good ole Willem. After all, he went to a library and checked out How to Hug so he could make PA more acceptable to others. He got back all the way to the PA office before he found an editor to tell him that he had Volume Seven of an encyclopedia.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 07:08 AM

Not with posters like Henry, who blames it all on bad marketing. That's the standard PA line.

I worked to market my novel when it came out. Interviews, calling local bookstores (who were all happy to stock it, since it came from a real publisher, had regular discounts, and was fully returnable), doing radio interviews, appearing as SF conventions, doing a signing. I probably sold an extra 100 copies because of it.

It was the publisher's marketing (and good reviews) sold the other 99% of the copies. Plus the fact that I wasn't being sabotaged by the lack or returns.

An author can only do so much to push his book. To succeed, you need someone to push the book in the 7900 bookstores that you can't visit personally. That's why you have a publisher.

Canada James

03-03-2005, 07:24 AM

Royalty Amount - $1.24

I can't stress this enough. CASH THAT CHEQUE! 1.24 (royalty)*11,000 (authors)= $13, 640.

Do you want to take part in giving them over thirteen thousand bucks?

Canada James

Patricia

03-03-2005, 07:28 AM

...if in fact he told this person as quoted here.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8035.htm

mdin

03-03-2005, 07:28 AM

Are Amazon ranks still based on a sample of new orders?

That is, on day x if XX copies were ordered, and the sample day was day x, the ranking will go up, but if the sample day is day Y, then the ranking will either not change or go down?

Amazon just changed their ranking system late last year. It is based on immediate sales, not sales of a certain period of time. Books in the 200,000 range will jump to the 50,000 range if a single book is ordered, but will eventually sink back down over the next 24 hours.

Kate Nepveu

03-03-2005, 07:36 AM

Doing a companion one-sheet why PA should be avoided would also be great.Okay, because I _am_ the Vacuumer of Cats, I am working on a draft.

I need a link that demonstrates PA's lousy reseller discounts. I also need a link that demonstrates standard industry discounts.

Can anyone help?

In addition, the current Ingrams situation means that PA books can't be special ordered at all through them, right?

Patricia

03-03-2005, 07:49 AM

In addition, the current Ingrams situation means that PA books can't be special ordered at all through them, right?

Bonnie Gibson would probably know the answer to that since she has a bookstore.

aka eraser

03-03-2005, 07:59 AM

Ed, that was a heart-wrenching quote you posted. Reading it, I felt the same helpless fury I felt when my kind-hearted son was confronted with the harsh reality of bullying.

When this thread started, when PA's veneer was peeled to reveal the rotten skulduggery beneath, I was content to see it change its business practices - to better represent the "traditional" label in which it falsely wrapped itself.

As time went by I wanted to see it broken, and Meiners, Clopper and Miranda facing litigation til they were penniless.

Now I want them broke and doing time, preferably with Bubba (or Bubette) The Remorseless as a roomie.

Galoot

03-03-2005, 08:55 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8035.htmDid you notice that, for his good advice, the lawyer received a "singed copy" of this person's first book?

That's what I would have given him.

reph

03-03-2005, 09:44 AM

Actually, the lawyer got a singed copy. That's even better.

He did not charge me for the work and just got a singed copy of my first book...

See?

Patricia

03-03-2005, 09:48 AM

I noticed; however, I should talk -- he saw an attorney, and that is more than I can say for myself. I made sure I understood the media rights and a few other things and signed away. That mistake is my most embarrassing admission. I usually consult for important things. I think it was the "simple" language that fooled me.

Alphabeter

03-03-2005, 09:51 AM

The Sociopath Next Door tells you how to recognize the
diagnosable sociopath, defined as:
"...someone who displays at least three of seven distinguishing
characteristics, such as deceitfulness, impulsivity and a lack
of remorse. Such people often have a superficial charm, which
they exercise ruthlessly in order to get what they want."
Want to hear something weird? I was in a B&N just the other day, spotted that same book, and thought of exactly the same people. Spooky!
While I would be flattered to be in Jim's head, I think he would be afraid in mine. It should say something that people think this a "perfect" book to give me. :o

(Oh -- want something spooky? If you Google on new + books + published + year your number one hit is ... PublishAmerica!)

That is spooky. Perhaps its time to drop some more artillery. Would those AW'ers who have boards or blogs might adding another PA boomer?

Oh man, just stop it! You're killing me here. Darth meiner has to be the best though. lol What's next? Infohelmet? Who will ride in on blazing saddles to save the day?

InfoHelmet? :ROFL:Oh jeez, thats gotta be the best version. May the Schwartz be with us. But Moeranda doesn't look Druish!

And now that I'm all caught up again, I have a few more opinions.
First, I would like to favor against a separate PA Humor thread. Yes, some things get lost when the funny is running, but when Ted? reposted, answers were posted in droves.
Second, I think Kevin should put the SW/PA posts into a book. I have a policeman buddy who would just love to own it.
Third, Dave PLEASE keep up the jokes!

:Sun:

Chacounne

03-03-2005, 09:59 AM

Hey Jaws,

Do you think he has enough for a suit against his lawyer? Sigh!

Chacounne

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2005, 10:25 AM

I think it was the "simple" language that fooled me.

Ann, that contract is deliberately designed to be deceptive. Check upstream (waaaaay upstream) here for some pretty good dissections of it.

(The Indexing the Big PA Thread topic might help you there.)

Diana Hignutt

03-03-2005, 02:09 PM

I just got a copy of the sci-fi/fantasy magazine Locus in the mail. On page 10 there is an article on PublishAmerica and Atlanta Nights. (If someone else pointed this out already--sorry).

"PublishAmerica, the self-proclaimed "traditional" publisher that is widely condemned as an author mill, has suffered lately from more than the usual bad publicity."

The article goes on to mention SFWA's long going opposition to PA, PA's acceptance of Atlanta Nights (mentioning many of Travis' components by name), a reference to Kevin's Purple masterpiece, the Washington Post article, the fact that SFWA, the Authors Guild, and the MWA have all spoken out against PA, and that with more than 11,000 writers under contract-more than 1,000 PA titles have failed to sell a single copy.

PA, not surprisingly, is quoted as placing blame for the widespread complaints on an "extremely small minority of extremists."

A good article. The timing with the media blitz and Atlanta Nights was truly synergistic. One day soon everyone on the planet will know about PA. The words PublishAmerica will be synonymous with scam. Once again, I say a hearty, "Bravo" to all involved.

diana

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 04:47 PM

PA, not surprisingly, is quoted as placing blame for the widespread complaints on an "extremely small minority of extremists."

Yes and that magic number is exactly three. Anyone want their names, too? ;)

Sher2

03-03-2005, 05:02 PM

Ann, that contract is deliberately designed to be deceptive.
Exactly. At first blush, it looks okay. It takes an attorney well versed in publishing law to spot the problem areas. I should know; my attorney witnessed mine. :Smack:

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 05:02 PM

Not with posters like Henry, who blames it all on bad marketing. That's the standard PA line.

Agreed. But for the sake of the argument, let us concede that it is up to the author to market and promote the book. In reality, this is what often happens with small publishing houses, particularly if they cater to a niche market. In these cases, does the publisher not bear responsibility for backing up the author's efforts?

[Our more experienced pros can tune out here.]

For example, if I'm speaking at a fairly large venue and need books to sell afterward, my publisher will drop ship them the afternoon I call in the order. Along with copies of the book, the publisher will also send other promotional material like bookmarks, a poster of the cover, posters of me next to the cover, etc. But getting back to copies of the book, they arrive at the venue where I set them up, sign them, and sell them. I then have ninety days after the event to sort out the money and extra copies with publisher. I can either purchase those books that weren't sold at 50 to 60 percent discount, or I can return them.

The process is similar with review copies. If I'm speaking to an editor or to a seminary professor who wants a review copy, I can just call the publisher. They will send out a review copy within the week. Not a sales pitch, but a free copy of the book.

And if I have to travel long distance to a venue to promote the book, and it is large enough or important enough that the publisher wants me there, guess who picks up the cost of airfare and other travel expenses? The publisher will even make the travel arrangements. Generally I book my own flights and arrange my own way to the airport, but let the publisher figure out my lodging and subsequent travel. Whatever authorized expenditures the publisher hasn't paid upfront, I submit as a bill for reimbursement.

Friends, this is how traditional publishers behave when their authors get involved with the publicity and marketting aspects of the book.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 05:05 PM

...if in fact he told this person as quoted here.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8035.htm Not too surprising. If a lawyer is unfamiliar with publishing practices, he's not going to notice all the potential pitfalls. You need someone who knows publishing contracts, not a lawyer who's never seen one.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 05:13 PM

Agreed. But for the sake of the argument, let us concede that it is up to the author to market and promote the book. Does the publisher not bear some responsibility to back up the author's efforts?.Absolutely. The publisher does nearly all the promoting, primarily through its sales force and by sending out a copious amount of review copies. The author's promotion efforts are just the cherry on the icing on the cake.

Even for a small press book, the publisher does a good deal of the promotion.

The only books where the author handles the majority of the promotion are self-published and vanity press books.

Once more item in the long list of reasons why PA is a vanity press.

T42

03-03-2005, 05:17 PM

Good Morning All,

I noticed that the authors who have gotten the royalty checks are now starting to justify why it was so small and work on a “new strategy” and John with the 200 book is more then willing to help. Why can’t these people just get it? Talk about denial. I sent another letter to B&N to ask them to help with this war against PA since they too will be hurt in the long run by PA’s bad reputation. After all, PA makes it sound like they are bed partners. I sent a letter to FOX ‘s Bill Oreilly and I plan to send out many more letters in the next few days.

PA knows that I spent 30 days straight sending letters out during the elections, sometimes 15-16 hrs. a day and they are STUPID to think that I wouldn’t spend more time on them.

They won’t even respond to my letters now. I can’t even get a “don’t take that tone with us” letter. :Hail:

T42

03-03-2005, 05:28 PM

I can't stress this enough. CASH THAT CHEQUE! 1.24 (royalty)*11,000 (authors)= $13, 640.

Do you want to take part in giving them over thirteen thousand bucks?

Canada James

James, I agree with this totally. Pa is probably banking on the fact that all these people will be so depressed about their small checks that they won’t cash them. Make a copy of them for future reference but by all means, everyone cash their checks. Anyone that can post on Pa threads should encourage everyone to cash those checks or send out emails if you have addresses. Also, put the link to absolutewrite on your email letter. (Give them a place to come to) I found you all by pure accident and I don’t want it to take the rest of the “unhappy authors” at Pa to find a source of support as long as it took me. I don’t have access to anyone or I would do it and I certainly can’t post.

T42

03-03-2005, 05:33 PM

Darn, I just passed into being a board fanatic! I wanted to stay a Super Member:Trophy:

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 05:59 PM

...because it is incredibly hard to admit having made such a mistake, especially with something as personal as a book. Odds are that most of the current PA authors probably tried submitting to legitimate publishers with no luck. PA then comes along and tells them everything they want to hear, and they want to believe it so badly that they let themselves fall for their pitch - "my writing is good, I'm going to be published, my life is going to change for the better, this publisher recognizes my talent." Then the "want to believe" emotion grows even stronger when the newly minted author tells their family and friends. Of course, these people praise their accomplishment, brag on them, and tell them that they are going to be the next Grisham/King/Rowling. The internal validation of their skills, their writing "worth," grows even stronger. Then the book comes out. At first things are great, relatives and friends are purchasing them, life looks pretty good, "people are buying my book!" After awhile, though, that market dries up. The author starts thinking, hey, I'll get it into some bookstores, there are sales to be made there, people will buy it if they can just see it up on the shelves. And the disallusionment begins to set in when several bookstore managers say no. They begin to wonder about some of the rumors they've heard, and they do some talking to other PA authors and also do some personal research. What they find alarms them, and at that point a decision has to be made - admit that a mistake has been made, or refuse to because to do so invalidates some of the earlier assumptions made about their achievement and their writing "worth." For some, they suck it up and admit the mistake. It's painful, but they learn, and they greatly increase their odds of a successful publishing experience with their next project. For the others, they condemn themselves to minimal sales and defensive justifications for PA and what they do.

Bottom line - some people learn, some people deny. There are still people out there who defend Jim Jones or David Koresh. I promise y'all that even if PA goes toes up that there will still be some out there who will defend them, as they just can't let go of that validation. It's very, very sad, but it's an unfortunate reality, I think.

Gratian Gasparri

03-03-2005, 06:05 PM

I noticed that the authors who have gotten the royalty checks are now starting to justify why it was so small and work on a “new strategy” and John with the 200 book is more then willing to help. Why can’t these people just get it?

Because for the most part the authors are honest and intellegent people. While it is generally harder to scam these types of folk, the opposite is also true: once taken, it is more difficult for these types of people to realize they have been taken.

For example, I once worked with a guy whose intellegence was a tad below average. I would say he probably functioned at a grade ten level. He was also a tad crooked, often looking to make a quick buck and he didn't mind if it was at someone else's expense. For these reasons, he fell for every scam in the book. Scamming him was easy. You just had to set it up so that he would believe he was scamming you. Once scammed, however, it wasn't long before he figured it out.

On the other hand, I once worked with a group that trained people for volunteer organizations. The reason we were effective is because we employed a type of theatre in our training in which the hypothetical exercise broke down and a "real" emergency arose. So those being trained quickly learn to pull together and work as a team to get out of the situation, or they flunked.

Of course, we could only stretch "the real" situation so far before the volunteers whom we were training would begin to suspect something was amiss. And eventually someone would, or we would have to tell them. Regardless, it took a lot of planning to set up just right so that everyone was always fooled.

Here's an interesting observation. It was always easier to fool a blue collar worker than a professional. Once fooled, however, you could string the professional much further than you could a blue collar worker. The more experienced the professional, the further you could string them.

In fact, I remember this one time we had a respected judge and the town's most experienced psychiatrist in the crowd. These two guys were very hard nuts to crack and the fact they were close friends and sitting beside each other only made it more difficult. We tried every trick in the book, but they weren't falling for it because they had seen everything in their career. But once we managed to get under their radar and suck them into the action, it was more fun than any of us on the troope had ever had. This is because people of their prestige and experience "could not" be sucked into a hoax. Even after we divulged ourselves, and explained what had happened and why, the judge and psychiatrist were still skeptical! It finally took one of our team's plants who had faked a heart-attack (and been carried off to the emergency) running out and doing a couple pushups for these guys to believe.

T42

03-03-2005, 06:17 PM

Wow, I have to stop thinking out loud. At least stop asking questions that are popping around in my head. Ha, I know why they don’t get it or are in denial. I’m just amazed…ha.... but thanks for the reasons.:banana:

writerjenn

03-03-2005, 06:19 PM

Funny how things come to you in the middle of the night. Between the nightmare of the big snake under my bed and the juicy dream of mr wonderful IN my bed... a-hem... never mind.

Anyway, I had this thought that of course PA doesn't want returns. Do you know how many books would be returned from unhappy readers who expect even a modecum of editing?

Jenn

DeadlyAccurate

03-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Here's an interesting observation. It was always easier to fool a blue collar worker than a professional. Once fooled, however, you could string the professional much further than you could a blue collar worker. The more experienced the professional, the further you could string them.

That would explain why you hear of business professional, people who run entire companies, falling for Nigerian scams. The one group you'd think would be immune to that type of scam lose millions of dollars (sometimes embezzling the money in the process)

Kate Nepveu

03-03-2005, 06:29 PM

Thanks, Ann. I've sent Bonnie a private message in case these questions get lost in the volume of the board.

Dolan

03-03-2005, 06:29 PM

So, is that why my house is full of Tupperware, Mary Kay bath oil and all of those Franklin Mint "collectibles"?

Added later:

Oh, I forgot about the stacks and stacks of my PA published books. Why do I have all of those?

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 06:47 PM

... but I'll be watching with great interest as John's "small physics" book hits the printing press. Right now he's hawking the 200 Authors theme and attempting to downplay the low royalty check discussion with tales of how you just have to market differently. Ah, the naviety of youth.

yahsureyoubetcha.

:crazy:

I'm still wondering how those PA authors involved figure that they're going to convince a bookstore manager to PAY for a book catalog that they should, by rights, be getting free.

if they won't buy your BOOK, they sure won't be buying a catalog with your book LISTED in it.

*sighs*

and yes, I'm cashing my check. My pride ain't that injured that I ain't gonna take the money and run.

need some new dice for Origins in June, doncha know.

:snoopy:

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 07:15 PM

I'm still wondering how those PA authors involved figure that they're going to convince a bookstore manager to PAY for a book catalog that they should, by rights, be getting free.This is typical for people who try to think "outside the box" when they don't know what the box is.:box:

Of course, no one at PA is going to point out the obvious problem you indicate. Worse, they'd probably close down the posts that point it out.

DeadlyAccurate

03-03-2005, 07:19 PM

... but I'll be watching with great interest as John's "small physics" book hits the printing press. Right now he's hawking the 200 Authors theme and attempting to downplay the low royalty check discussion with tales of how you just have to market differently. Ah, the naviety of youth.

I'm wondering if he's thinking "small" as in, "just a few hundred bucks of royalties," not "I can buy a McD's cheeseburger but no drink"-small.

I'm still wondering how those PA authors involved figure that they're going to convince a bookstore manager to PAY for a book catalog that they should, by rights, be getting free.

if they won't buy your BOOK, they sure won't be buying a catalog with your book LISTED in it.

*sighs*

And I'm wondering why they aren't the least bit suspicious about the fact that the first "200 Authors" thread was deleted after people had legitimate questions about the project. I haven't seen a few of those authors around either.

Susan Gable

03-03-2005, 07:22 PM

They won’t even respond to my letters now. I can’t even get a “don’t take that tone with us” letter. :Hail:

Well, Mem, if it will make you feel better: "Don't take that tone with US!"

:banana:

Susan G.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 07:25 PM

And I'm wondering why they aren't the least bit suspicious about the fact that the first "200 Authors" thread was deleted after people had legitimate questions about the project. I haven't seen a few of those authors around either.

I'm sure many of them are lurking here wondering how well they'll be received.

Oh, hi, come on in, folks. Ready to help wreck-tify PA?

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 07:26 PM

Well, Mem, if it will make you feel better: "Don't take that tone with US!"

:banana:

Susan G.

flasher.

;)

victoriastrauss

03-03-2005, 07:40 PM

I noticed; however, I should talk -- he saw an attorney, and that is more than I can say for myself.Yes, but he didn't see the right attorney. Publishing contracts are peculiar and specialized documents, and unless you have an attorney who is familiar with publishing contract language, and knows what should and shouldn't be in there, you probably won't be getting competent advice.

Many people don't realize this. I've seen many posts from PA authors about how their lawyers vetted the PA contract and pronounced it OK, and I often get letters from writers who consulted a lawyer before signing with other bad agencies/publishers. The impulse is good, but without the right attorney there's really no point.

- Victoria

T42

03-03-2005, 07:46 PM

:)Thanks Susan, I needed that....

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 07:48 PM

Victoria, that would be a fine topic for Jaws to write upon briefly with maybe one or two examples of what a regular lawyer would miss so that the resulting article could be posted at multiple sites to educate more writers. That is, if he's willing and can spare the five minutes or so that it might take from his time.

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 07:54 PM

I too am one that PA doesn't return messages to. I've written about 20 emails and six snail mail letters over the past month. I've not got a single return response. Some of those emails had about six people it was going to.

victoriastrauss

03-03-2005, 08:03 PM

This is because people of their prestige and experience "could not" be sucked into a hoax. Even after we divulged ourselves, and explained what had happened and why, the judge and psychiatrist were still skeptical!Yes! This is so true, and I've often thought that it explains why Writer Beware hears from so many educated, accomplished, professional people who've fallen prey to literary scams.

A lot of folks (including many publishing professionals and quite a contingent of pro writers in the organization that sponsors Writer Beware) think that only stupid or inexperienced people are suckered by literary scams. There are even some who see scams as a kind of Darwinism in action, winnowing out the least fit. But while a smart professional person may realize that she needs to do careful research before jumping into a new field, she can as easily assume that the learning curve is less steep for someone like her, or that she can apply the professional skills she already owns. 'Tain't so. I hear from lawyers, doctors, business owners, university professors, social workers, even successful journalists who've been hoodwinked by bottom feeders such as Cris Robins, and are only just waking up to the fact that they should have done more research.

- Victoria

Patricia

03-03-2005, 08:22 PM

Yes, but he didn't see the right attorney. Publishing contracts are peculiar and specialized documents, and unless you have an attorney who is familiar with publishing contract language, and knows what should and shouldn't be in there, you probably won't be getting competent advice.

Thanks Victoria, good point.

Everyone -- on getting scammed; that is another thing I keep kicking myself about. I'm one who "rudely" hangs up on telemarketers, if they get through my zapper, I delete all the bleeding heart "my dad died and left me millions in Africa," and all please donate to the cause. I'm continually amazed at the people who fall for the "let me put my money in your bank, but give me $10,000 to do it." I'm sure you've heard them all. Yet, PA sucked me in. And yes, it almost made me give up writing all together because it has been so discouraging to watch the garbage coming down. BUT, since I do have some support and am doing pretty good with sales, and signings; I keep thinking -- wow, if I can do this good under these circumstances, how well will I do with a real publisher when accepted!? SO I start smiling and thinking about the time ahead, instead of beating myself up some more. Well, almost have stopped beating myself up -- working on it. :)

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:28 PM

[COLOR=Navy]I'm only one state down from the House of Scam but, so far, no check. :

I received my two royalties statements today - both of them state:

Total Amount of Royalties Payable: 0
No copies of your book were sold during this royalty period.

:snoopy: I'm a happy girl!!!! That means PA didn't make squat off me!!! :partyguy:

Although, I do wonder why they wasted not one, but two stamps on me. :Shrug:

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:29 PM

I bet they at least open it to make sure it doesn't contain a check.

I'm sure you're right.

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:34 PM

[QUOTE=Ed WilliamsAnyone wonder what the Vegas odds would be on PA deciding to accept returns?
:Headbang:[/QUOTE]

I know of a couple of people who have gotten emails from PA stating that their books are returnable. However, when they emailed them back asking what was meant by that, they received no response.

We all know our books are non-returnable, so why even make the statement? What a bunch of Moe-rons!!! :crazy:

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 08:39 PM

Ed, you silly-billy! I'll take your money. PA already accepts returns! Lookee here, at those six Independence Books!

If you think about it, all PA books are returnable. You just don't get your money back, any type of credit, or any acknowledgement that the books were received.

Christine N.

03-03-2005, 08:40 PM

Joyce Ann writes:

My husband who was a publisher for many years and
now writes for the music publisher who bought his
business, read the contract and said it was as good as
any he had ever signed. Since he succeeded in his
business, I trust him.

Well, it's great that you trust your husband. It sounds like he was just as naive as she is. He was a publisher? Of what, I would like to know. If PA's were as good as any he signed, then he either didn't read his contracts well enough to see the difference, or he got some really raw deals.

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, but this statement speaks volumes, IMO.

T42

03-03-2005, 08:43 PM

Did anyone notice my latest artwork? It's my constant reminder of PA...
The big "d" for DUH!:roll:

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 08:48 PM

Yes! This is so true, and I've often thought that it explains why Writer Beware hears from so many educated, accomplished, professional people who've fallen prey to literary scams.

One reason that's sometimes forgotten is that some professionals, such as university professors, are used to paying for publication. To get your article on intracellular calcium, or rates of depression among police officers, or for that matter, rates of insanity among people who edit articles about intracellular calcium :crazy: ... you almost always have to pay the page rates.

Also, authors aiming at publication in literary magazines are used to getting paid in copies. Getting a dollar advance might seem like going up in the world to them. :( As they've been pretty much brought up in the university creative writing "We don't besmirch ourselves by talking about money" mentality, they might think it's bad for writers to ask certain questions. :(

Patricia

03-03-2005, 08:49 PM

Well, it's great that you trust your husband. It sounds like he was just as naive as she is. He was a publisher? Of what, I would like to know.

Her statement indicates he was a music publisher. As Victoria mentioned re: lawyers -- not all are familiar with the ins and outs of book publishing. So in the same vein -- maybe with the knowledge available to her husband, the contract looked OK.

KellyS.

03-03-2005, 08:55 PM

I got my *ahem* check today. Are ya ready? Are ya sitting down?

$2.54

One sale apparently came from PA site and I think I know the person who bought that one.

One sale was done at 40% off. I have no clue who would have gotten 40% off.

This last one is strange. It shows a 55% disc. and (UK) after that. Any clues on that one? How does a UK sale get that big of a discount?

I also found some interesting emails from back in april of 2004. I had asked some questions about my book being stocked.
So, here's one for the people who are told they have 49 copies in stock when you try to get released from your contract (unless they are saying that the printer stocks them or some junk):

Dear Ms. Sxxxxx,

We do not keep any copies of any of our books in stock. We have little to no
storage for books. The person who told you otherwise was misinformed. The
Information you were given over the telephone is accurate. It is possible
some of the 15 books you are speaking about came from a different
distributor or from PublishAmerica directly. Hope to have helped. Have a
nice day!

Thank You,
Jessica
Author Support Team
Jessica@publishamerica.com (Jessica@publishamerica.com)

This one is dated 3-12-2004 about the line by line editing (this really blows me away):

Dear author:
We are proud to announce yet another milestone in PublishAmerica's history. This month we are opening our fourth (4th!) office building. In keeping with the historic atmosphere of our current offices, our new office will be in our third 100-year-old brownstone building in our historic downtown area.

The new addition will house our largest department, PublishAmerica's editing staff.

Conscious of the importance of having a solid, well-trained and well-educated staff of editors, we presently employ thirty highly qualified fulltime editors whose sole job it is to carefully work through our authors' books, line by line. This means that we are always working on 30 different books at a time.

PublishAmerica is currently the fastest growing employer in our area. Over the past few years, many publishing companies have chosen to outsource parts or all of their book editing to countries in the Far East, where labor is cheap. We have resisted this temptation. Mindful of the "America" in "PublishAmerica", we chose to keep our jobs right here, where labor is top-notch. While we are fond of exporting (to date, we have sold books to 70 countries, from Afghanistan to Zambia!), we feel that a publisher should export books, not jobs.

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.

Thank you.

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 08:57 PM

I'm deeply saddened to see my royalty statement showing a sale. I really really was trying to not sell a copy. I can be assured it is not a friend nor family member.
$1.36, standard PA website price of $16.95 is what sold.

Blah.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 08:58 PM

ZaZ

03-03-2005, 09:00 PM

Then one day, Uncle Jim sat at his desk, head in hands, "No, I can't index this thread any longer! For the love of Alf, it's now 3,000 pages long at 100 posts per page!"

Feeling this distress abruptly distort the universal bar tab, ZaZ runs to his aid, opens the latest post, "Uncle Jim, you're free! We're all the way back to the beginning."

"Zaz, you never read the beginning."

"Oh yeah," he cracks a beer.

Uncarved

03-03-2005, 09:05 PM

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.

Thank you.

Looking at the people working for them and where they advertise their jobs, we can be sure they meant that they sprinkle them with curry every morning.

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 09:05 PM

underthecity

03-03-2005, 09:09 PM

Found this posting (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11748.htm)by jck on the PA board. He recommends his fellow authors check out a webpage "that will help you understand how the publishing industry works" and "When you see the facts you will appreciate what a great job PA are actually doing."

Print on Demand Publisher (http://www.fonerbooks.com/cornered.htm)

Please check this out. It's very, um, enlightening.

underthecity

PixelFish

03-03-2005, 09:11 PM

PublishAmerica is currently the fastest growing employer in our area. Over the past few years, many publishing companies have chosen to outsource parts or all of their book editing to countries in the Far East, where labor is cheap. We have resisted this temptation. Mindful of the "America" in "PublishAmerica", we chose to keep our jobs right here, where labor is top-notch. While we are fond of exporting (to date, we have sold books to 70 countries, from Afghanistan to Zambia!), we feel that a publisher should export books, not jobs.

This month, we are growing our editing staff with six more seasoned editors. Hence the opening of our fourth office, a moment of celebration we thought we ought to share with you.

Thank you.

Do real publishing companies outsource their editing to the Far East? This claim seems really spurious....and more than a little impractical.

Dolan

03-03-2005, 09:12 PM

There is a trick some of us PA authors play on ourselves. There is a page on Amazon.com where we enter PA and check a box for listing PA bestsellers and a list of books comes up from #1 to #8,000+.

The list has no meaning at all but if we PA authors find our book listed at, lets say, #9 we go on the PA message board and brag that our book is in the top 10 PA bestsellers. We believe that our book is selling like hotcakes regardless that we have an Amazon.com ranking of 1,982,768 or higher.

A PA author messaged today that he received his royalty statement and only sold 52 books but his book had once been #4. He lamented for the authors whose books listed below his.

My book once listed at #4. I hard-copied it and plan to frame it for stocking stuffers for family, next Christmas.

Patricia

03-03-2005, 09:12 PM

Has anyone heard more about something that was mentioned on one of PA's boards recently? Is it true that PA is no longer accepting children's books?

If so, any theories as to why this is so? And are they including YA books in this as well?

If I remember correctly, they put a page restriction on children's books. I forgot what the minimum was, but they upped it quite a bit. Not sure about YA. Also, I believe they said that the illustrations had to be black and white only. It's been almost a year ago that I read this info -- if it has changed again, I didn't catch the thread.

lindylou45

03-03-2005, 09:16 PM

Publishing contracts are peculiar and specialized documents, and unless you have an attorney who is familiar with publishing contract language, and knows what should and shouldn't be in there, you probably won't be getting competent advice.
- Victoria

Just one more thing I learned from my PA experience. I didn't have the right type of attorney either. :Headbang:

tab

03-03-2005, 09:16 PM

One reason that's sometimes forgotten is that some professionals, such as university professors, are used to paying for publication. To get your article on intracellular calcium, or rates of depression among police officers, or for that matter, rates of insanity among people who edit articles about intracellular calcium :crazy: ... you almost always have to pay the page rates.

Also, authors aiming at publication in literary magazines are used to getting paid in copies. Getting a dollar advance might seem like going up in the world to them. :( As they've been pretty much brought up in the university creative writing "We don't besmirch ourselves by talking about money" mentality, they might think it's bad for writers to ask certain questions. :(

Ann, where did you get the idea that academics pay to publish in peer reviewed journals? I worked as a research assistant during college and I worked as a professional researcher for a year. We published in many peer-reviewed journals and we never paid a cent. There is a certain hierarchy among journals. Perhaps the lower tier ones require authors to pay, but I've never heard of this. Maybe it depends on the discipline? I may not know as much as you about this since I'm not a Ph.d. I've only worked under Ph.d.s (Princiapal Investigators and otherwise) and written articles specifically for peer review. I just find it odd that this would be so, because most academics work under the pressure of "publish or perish." If all it takes to publish is to pay, then many aspiring, untenured adjuncts wouldn't be in the stressful position they are in.

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 09:22 PM

Do real publishing companies outsource their editing to the Far East? This claim seems really spurious....and more than a little impractical.

Some science and technical presses are doing this now. However, as far as I know, it's mostly done for copyediting and proofreading (and some technical writing!). I doubt anyone would outsource the editors who do in-depth work, such as structural and line editing. I hope not!

AnneMarble

03-03-2005, 09:31 PM

Ann, where did you get the idea that academics pay to publish in peer reviewed journals? I worked as a research assistant during college and I worked as a professional researcher for a year. We published in many peer-reviewed journals and we never paid a cent. There is a certain hierarchy among journals. Perhaps the lower tier ones require authors to pay, but I've never heard of this. Maybe it depends on the discipline?

I work for a peer-reviewed journal as an editor. (I'm actually with the printing company, not the actual journal.) There are page charges, plus extra charges for halftones or color articles. Of course, generally, the authors themselves don't have to pay those costs. The departments handle the costs. Also, authors can get grants from the journal office to waive those charges.

I know some journals subsidize all or parts of the costs of publishing, but some do charge page costs. For example, PNAS charges page costs, and while they're not Nature or Science, they're a major journal.

Ed Williams

03-03-2005, 09:33 PM

...explaining what that really means:

The Deception is list as the #1 best seller on Amazon.com for PA authors and has been in the top 4 best sellers for a long time. This may sound like a great feet but according to PA it has only sold a total of 18 books since Aug, 04. Royalty check for $20.12 is how much was paid. I know we all beleive that being #1 means something but not really.I'm not going to say anything else, a quick read through should tell y'all everything you need to know...

The thread this quote came from:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

Dolan

03-03-2005, 09:33 PM

Actually, I wish my book had been edited in Zambia. It would have been a better book.

Kate Nepveu

03-03-2005, 09:42 PM

Ann, where did you get the idea that academics pay to publish in peer reviewed journals?I know from personal experience that physics journals have "page charges," which come *after* the article has been accepted, i.e., payment is necessary but not sufficient (and usually comes out of grant or department funds), while law reviews do not (because they run on student labor).

tab

03-03-2005, 09:44 PM

I work for a peer-reviewed journal as an editor. (I'm actually with the printing company, not the actual journal.) There are page charges, plus extra charges for halftones or color articles. Of course, generally, the authors themselves don't have to pay those costs. The departments handle the costs. Also, authors can get grants from the journal office to waive those charges.

I know some journals subsidize all or parts of the costs of publishing, but some do charge page costs. For example, PNAS charges page costs, and while they're not Nature or Science, they're a major journal.

I think it depends on the journal. For example, some open source journals ask the author to pay part of the costs. Of course there is a concurrent movement among open source journals to pay the author. However, I think we should make it clear that not all academic, peer reviewed journals charge their authors to publish. From my knowledge, APA journals, JAMA, JAIDS, etc do not. I worked with primarily social science and epidemiological journals. Also, many university libraries do, somewhat reluctantly, pay substantial fees to by the journals themselves. This is not necessarily the same as the author having to pay a fee. To be sure, academic publishing is a different world, with different rules, but I just wanted to point this out. Sorry to get off of track, you all probably know more than I about it. Sometimes my experiences with things have been a lot different then others.

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 09:48 PM

...explaining what that really means:

I'm not going to say anything else, a quick read through should tell y'all everything you need to know...

The thread this quote came from:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

actually, I'm waiting for them to do the REAL math - it's not how much you MADE, it's how much you SPENT before you got the money BACK.

willing to bet that the poster who claims to have made hundreds spent more than that hawking his wares...

:poke:

KellyS.

03-03-2005, 09:50 PM

I came across 5 PA authors (including myself) and their royalty amounts.

TOTAL FOR 5 PA Authors royalties are....... $6.50

If that doesn't tell it all.........

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 09:54 PM

He was a publisher? Of what, I would like to know. If PA's were as good as any he signed, then he either didn't read his contracts well enough to see the difference, or he got some really raw deals.

The operative word here is that her husband was a publisher; the PublishAmerica swind . . . contract is good for PublishAmerica, the publisher; it's not good for the author.

akaa1a

03-03-2005, 09:55 PM

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:00 PM

Do real publishing companies outsource their editing to the Far East? This claim seems really spurious....and more than a little impractical.

Not editing, no; remember to PublishAmerica "editing" means crude text formatting.

And yes, digital publishers do rely on China and India to provide obscenely cheap labor for scanning/proofing sorts of digital publishing.

And it shows. They also still use cheap outsource labor to keyboard in books, using two people to keyboard the same text, then running diff, a unix utility, to come up with the differences between the two files; those differences are checked against the original, and the"better" file is edited.

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 10:01 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

A little tongue and cheek I would say...

Message
Hmmmm.
If sales are this low with #1 PA authors, how does PA stay in business? Somone better do the math because I'm rotten at deciphering this stuff!

Any thoughts Infocenter? We certainly wouldn't want our company to be suffering a financial loss...right?

oh, that one should be gone soon enough...

I see no one's doing the real math about how many copies they had to give away to get a single sale.

PA authors - I know you're reading this - DO THE MATH!
you should NOT have to buy your own copies and then try to resell them. Wouldn't you rather be WRITING than hawking books???

Friends don't let Friends be Scammed by PublishAmerica.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:02 PM

Some science and technical presses are doing this now. However, as far as I know, it's mostly done for copyediting and proofreading (and some technical writing!). I doubt anyone would outsource the editors who do in-depth work, such as structural and line editing. I hope not!

This is true, particularly for chemistry and engineering. The articles are still peer reviewed, but you do pay. I suspect that this is becuase of the costs for typesetting formulae and the line art for charts and diagrams. I can provide specifics if someone wants.

mdin

03-03-2005, 10:03 PM

tab

03-03-2005, 10:06 PM

oh, that one should be gone soon enough...

I see no one's doing the real math about how many copies they had to give away to get a single sale.

PA authors - I know you're reading this - DO THE MATH!
you should NOT have to buy your own copies and then try to resell them. Wouldn't you rather be WRITING than hawking books???

Friends don't let Friends be Scammed by PublishAmerica.

I think they should focus on profit, not simply sales. For example, one author claims to have "made close to $500 in the past 3 months" in addition to $60 dollars in royalties. However, did he subtract for his marketing endeavours (travel, time, etc)? Did he markup the price of his book? If so, he must be a great salesman. His book retails for $16.95. I don't trust the numbers.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:09 PM

I should point out that book publishing of scholarly works does frequently, though not always, in clude an advance as well as royalties. I know that one faculty member I did rights for was given an advance, and the publisher saw to it that there were review copies sent to all the major news papers, a long list of academic scholarly journals, and that there were several rather fancy lunches at the publisher's expense, two trips to academic conferences, advertisements in several journals, one of them a two color full page glossy spread.

The book began to pay royalties in the first six months, and has been reprinted twice in paperback.

On the other hand, I've never been paid for any of the articles I've had in scholarly journals, though I did get several copies, and sometimes, fifty or so off prints, that is, little pamphlets printed just like the journal, on the same stock, but which only contain my article.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:11 PM

Locus is roughly equivalent to Publishers Weekly, except it focuses on the SF and Fantasy market (and it's monthly).

tab

03-03-2005, 10:11 PM

Jaws

03-03-2005, 10:30 PM

Having been in the academic publishing game off and on for a quarter of a decade, I'd like to think I know a little bit about it. To begin with, saying that all academic publishing is the same is a little bit like saying that all trade publishing is the same.
Some scientific journals do impose page charges. These are uniformly journals that tend to carry illustrations that are critical to the article, and almost uniformly are scientific journals that are not affiliated with an educational or major nonprofit institution. For example, Cell (annual subscription: $1,300) has imposed page charges in the recent past (I just don't know for certain about today); certain of its competitors do not. This is a function as much of the historical difficulty in putting graphics into pre-digital-imaging-device layouts as it is of profit motives.
Keep in mind, too, that the payment for scientific publications is in tenure, in endowed professorships, in grant money. In other words, there is a specific monetary benefit to publishing scientific material that is not on the simple balance sheet, but is definitely there, even if it is related more to who sees that article than to how many people see that article. Scientific American, for example, has a far higher circulation than does Nature, but nowhere near the "prestige" or ability to attract research funding and offers of teaching positions and promotions. For that reason, you don't see much at all in Scientific American authored by academics who have not already achieved tenure, and rarely by academics who have not been promoted to full professor; the junior folks are busy trying to publish in the "prestige" journals.
Once one gets outside of the natural sciences, it is only the very rare journal that imposes "page charges" or anything similar. It is also the rare journal that is not associated with a university or major subject-area nonprofit organization. For example, the affiliation of the UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LAW REVIEW is pretty obvious!
Last, and far from least, keep in mind that the "page charges" imposed by the publications that do so are explicitly linked to production costs. On cannot say the same about a vanity press.

DeadlyAccurate

03-03-2005, 10:31 PM

Message:
lbs
Your answer is easy. We don't get royalties on the books we buy with our author discount, but every author usually buys 25 to 50 copies and most by anywhere from 100 and more. PA makes there money there. 10,000 authors buying 50 books each..average. Believe me they make good money!

Kevin Clark, come on down! Looks like someone's seen the light.

Medievalist

03-03-2005, 10:34 PM

Good point. Were you the one who told the story of the PA author who turned an academic press down for PublishAmerica?

No, though a very good friend, with solid scholarly publication credits, including an important award for his first book, has published two books with them.

The text is OK in terms of spelling and grammar, but the books need an editor. They would be better had there been an editor to deal with certain writerly twitches, and some major structural issues, and some continuity issues, but the typesetting is truly awful. It isn't typeset. Yes, he used em-dashes, but there are problems with a trailing em-dashs and closing printer's quotes being inverted, for instance, and the usual rivers and odd leading; it changes over the course of one of the books.

keltora

03-03-2005, 10:34 PM

Bonnie, I don't know how it is with EVERY publisher, but with mine, I call the ordering department and ask what the latest sales numbers are. Or I email. And I always get an up-to-date figure. My publisher is a regional history publisher whose titles are available regionally and online.

Back to lurk . . .

underthecity

I get the numbers on the royalty statement, but I can call up any of my publishers (or email them) and they will tell me.

Because it's not suppose to be a secret kept from the author.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview a copy at http://www.embiid.net.

tab

03-03-2005, 10:39 PM

Once one gets outside of the natural sciences, it is only the very rare journal that imposes "page charges" or anything similar. It is also the rare journal that is not associated with a university or major subject-area nonprofit organization. For example, the affiliation of the UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LAW REVIEW is pretty obvious!
Last, and far from least, keep in mind that the "page charges" imposed by the publications that do so are explicitly linked to production costs. On cannot say the same about a vanity press.

Great post!

Patricia

03-03-2005, 10:40 PM

Kevin Clark, come on down! Looks like someone's seen the light.

Actually, Kevin carefully constructs his remarks to keep from getting the boot -- and one would wonder why he is still there. But we all know (don't we Kevin?) that he loves being the local ladies man. Also, as some call them -- part of the elite. ;) Just couldn't resist.

I do believe that some of the people who linger are not really serious writers and don't expect to write or submit another manuscript. However, the others? We can only hope they come out of denial soon.

aka eraser

03-03-2005, 10:47 PM

From the PA thread Ed linked to:

Message:
lbs
Your answer is easy. We don't get royalties on the books we buy with our author discount, but every author usually buys 25 to 50 copies and most by anywhere from 100 and more. PA makes there money there. 10,000 authors buying 50 books each..average. Believe me they make good money!

Prepare another plate at our table. I think company's coming.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 10:53 PM

I think they should focus on profit, not simply sales. For example, one author claims to have "made close to $500 in the past 3 months" in addition to $60 dollars in royalties. However, did he subtract for his marketing endeavours (travel, time, etc)? Did he markup the price of his book? If so, he must be a great salesman. His book retails for $16.95. I don't trust the numbers.

I'd like to know how many books were sold to earn that $500. Did he make a dollar in profit on each book and sell 500? For all we know, that could be how much was paid by the author's customers without deducting what the author paid for those books to begin with, meaning he could have sold as few as 25 copies.

I don't trust the numbers, either. The numbers are simply too incomplete.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 11:07 PM

PA authors' numbers never take into account the cost of sales. Those PA authors who do the calculation leave PA all the more quickly.

Sassenach

03-03-2005, 11:15 PM

PA authors' numbers never take into account the cost of sales. Those PA authors who do the calculation leave PA all the more quickly.

Isn't this true for everyone? I know lots of writers pubbed by big houses who spend varying amounts of their own $$ to promote their books.

When their royalties arrive, I assume their accountants calculate the 'cost of sales'. But aren't they two separate numbers?

tab

03-03-2005, 11:27 PM

I'd like to know how many books were sold to earn that $500. Did he make a dollar in profit on each book and sell 500? For all we know, that could be how much was paid by the author's customers without deducting what the author paid for those books to begin with, meaning he could have sold as few as 25 copies.

I don't trust the numbers, either. The numbers are simply too incomplete.

I was wondering the same thing. Lets say $560 is a nice profit for a PA author. To make a nice profit, an author would have to go beyond his immediate peer/family group, have a particularly good book, and have found a price at the equilibirum, i.e just above his purchase price and just below the price where it becomes too expensive for consumers. Because I think that PA books are already too expensive, I find it hard to believe anyone is making any kind of profit.

Diana Hignutt

03-03-2005, 11:33 PM

I was wondering the same thing. Lets say $560 is a nice profit for a PA author. To make a nice profit, an author would have to go beyond his immediate peer/family group, have a particularly good book, and have found a price at the equilibirum, i.e just above his purchase price and just below the price where it becomes too expensive for consumers. Because I think that PA books are already too expensive, I find it hard to believe anyone is making any kind of profit.

I probably made right around that with my PA book, but I wouldn't call it profit. My profit would work out to be a negative number of considerable size. But there I was, all doe-eyed, expecting the next big promtion would be the one... until I wised up.

diana

tab

03-03-2005, 11:36 PM

I probably made right around that with my PA book, but I wouldn't call it profit. My profit would work out to be a negative number of considerable size. But there I was, all doe-eyed, expecting the next big promtion would be the one... until I wised up.

diana
Well marketing expenses would cut into profit margins.

CaoPaux

03-03-2005, 11:37 PM

Isn't this true for everyone? I know lots of writers pubbed by big houses who spend varying amounts of their own $$ to promote their books.

When their royalties arrive, I assume their accountants calculate the 'cost of sales'. But aren't they two separate numbers? I'd think they'd be deductible business expenses, too.

I shudder to think how many PA folks acting as their own retailer will run afoul of the IRS.

DaveKuzminski

03-03-2005, 11:40 PM

I'd think they be deductible business expenses, too.

I shudder to think how many PA folks acting as their own retailer will run afoul of the IRS .

Eventually, one PA author will run afoul of the IRS. When that happens, you can bet that a lot of the other PA authors will be shaken severely enough that they'll drop out of the PA tree.

realitychuck

03-03-2005, 11:42 PM

Isn't this true for everyone? I know lots of writers pubbed by big houses who spend varying amounts of their own $$ to promote their books.Most of the promotion costs for the authors are minor (and optional). If they go on an official book tour, the publisher will pay for it (though those are rare).

Also, the writers get their money up front as an advance. So they have a few thousand in the bank before doing any promotion at all.

My promotional activities probably cost me around $25. I did go to a few extra SF cons, but those were basically tax-deductible vacations. Even if I added those costs to my expenses, it was still quite a bit less than my advance.

Sheryl Nantus

03-03-2005, 11:47 PM

the funny thing is that you don't have to be a math whiz to do the math - every freelance writer has to take care of the math and it's not that hard.

1) what did you spend this year? (buying your own books, bookmarks, business cards, donations to ArtistFirst Radio etc.)
2) what did you MAKE this year? (selling your own books, the dimunitive royalty *cough* check)

subtract and what you have left is what you REALLY made - if anything.

I doubt that $500 would stand up to close scrutiny.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-03-2005, 11:59 PM

A lot of folks (including many publishing professionals and quite a contingent of pro writers in the organization that sponsors Writer Beware) think that only stupid or inexperienced people are suckered by literary scams.Exactly. And the corollary to this is, these people are not just the longest to figure it out (as others have so aptly stated); these people are the longest in denial once they do start to figure it out. If only stupid people get scammed, then admitting to being scammed is tantamount to admitting to being stupid. So you get that shame and humiliation factor that keeps the victim from reporting the scam -- scammers count on that.

I remember telling my parents, when I was a teenager first exploring new religious choices in the wide world, that I didn't think it was likely I'd get brainwashed. My Mom said that my holding that belief was exactly what made her afraid for me. It's fortunate that I didn't encounter that sort of danger until college, when I'd outgrown at least some of my naivete and was no longer in "seeking" mode.

DeadlyAccurate

03-04-2005, 12:07 AM

Grabbed before PA can remove it

Message:
I really want you to pay attention to this very carefully. I received my royalty checks today. For Skeletons in his closet, I received, $1.59.
For Swivel Hips, Pitiful and Ugly Mug, I received $27.81.

Now what I want you to understand is this:
I am going to my list of 100 people that I gave you and ask each of them how many copies they bought or if they bought one. Then I am going to all my friends that I chat with on all the chat boards and ask them how many copies that they bought. Then if I find out that I have sold over 38 books as you have it here, I am going to sue you to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes.

You people are despicable. You disgust me.

Now you can take this post off but you can't take it off on AW.

Bonnie Gibson

Wow! Awesome post, Bonnie.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-04-2005, 12:07 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htmWhat really makes me sad about that thread is the one author trying to make everyone else feel ashamed for being interested in the money. You know, the whole "Well it doesn't matter to me because I did it all for my family."

I want to pick her up by the shoulders and shake her! Listen, amiga, you may have just wanted a one-shot book to show your family how much you love them, and bully for you. But don't you dare get all condescending towards authors who actually want to make a living through their writing! PA has scammed many a career writer who thought this would be their big break. Don't even get me started on those who maxxed out their credit cards to buy books to sell out their trunks! How... insulting!

I'm sure she means well. But she's a poster-child PA booster who--I hate to say it, given my impassioned belief in the possibility of change--will probably never leave the fold simply because she already got what she wanted. So she will be forever lecturing her fellow authors, rather selfishly: "I did it for my family, that's good enough for me, and it should be good enough for you." You know, I'm doing it for my family too. I'm doing it so maybe someday I can support my husband with my books, to repay him for having supported my writing with his long hours behind the company computer screen.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 12:13 AM

Bonnie!! Yeah!!:guns:

Patricia

03-04-2005, 12:22 AM

Message:
Bonnie,
Weren't you on the NYT list too? Sheesh, something has GOT to be amiss!

What's AW?

This is what is sad -- some are quite content and never look outside the PA "box" and have no idea of what's going on. I hope some one will clue her in privately. I don't have her email, or I would do it.

CaoPaux

03-04-2005, 12:23 AM

Yoiks! They've given someone time to respond to Bonnie's post!
-----
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11749.htm

Message:
Bonnie,
Weren't you on the NYT list too? Sheesh, something has GOT to be amiss!

What's AW?
-----

And I think that pretty much says it all... :scared:

ETA: *snerk* Ann beat me to it.

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 12:24 AM

:partyguy: :PartySmil :Clap: :TheWave: :Cheer: :snoopy:

March 3, 2005 is National "Go Bonnie, You Rock" Day!!!!!
There is hope!

mdin

03-04-2005, 12:30 AM

oh man. Bonnie's a goner.

lucyishome

03-04-2005, 12:33 AM

Wow Bonnie congratulations. I do believe you now qualify for a ex-patriate t-shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anne

:Clap:

tab

03-04-2005, 12:33 AM

Bonnie Gibson

3/03/2005
15:42:48
http://www.publishamerica.com/messageboard/icons/blackeye.gifSubject: To Publish America info center.
http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/ip.pl?ip=11749_0.main (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/ip.pl?ip=11749_0.main)

Message:
I really want you to pay attention to this very carefully. I received my royalty checks today. For Skeletons in his closet, I received, $1.59.
For Swivel Hips, Pitiful and Ugly Mug, I received $27.81.

Now what I want you to understand is this:
I am going to my list of 100 people that I gave you and ask each of them how many copies they bought or if they bought one. Then I am going to all my friends that I chat with on all the chat boards and ask them how many copies that they bought. Then if I find out that I have sold over 38 books as you have it here, I am going to sue you to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes.

You people are despicable. You disgust me.

Now you can take this post off but you can't take it off on AW.

Bonnie Gibson

Good luck! We are all with you.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 12:36 AM

oh man. Bonnie's a goner.

Bonnie may be "happily" gone from the PA board -- but she is a real WINNER on the AW board. I truely admire her stand.

Coa -- yeah, for once I was alert! :sleepy:

Sheryl Nantus

03-04-2005, 12:39 AM

GO BONNIE!!!!!!!

YOU GO, GIRL!!!!

YOU ROCK!!!!

:TheWave: :TheWave: :TheWave: :TheWave:

ZaZ

03-04-2005, 12:43 AM

You people are despicable. You disgust me.

Love the vehemence. Now that's takin' the tone. :welcome:

Dolan

03-04-2005, 12:43 AM

I once chastised that PA author, you speak of, for the very same sort of thing. Trying to make other PA authors behave the way she had decided that PA authors should all behave.

Within minutes, I was tarred and feathered, taken out back and shot, hanged, drawn and quartered along with other acts to brutal to speak of in public.

For weeks, new PA authors would come on the boards, see what I had said and begin the flogging all over again.

A badly broken PA author, this one is.

T42

03-04-2005, 12:44 AM

Nicole, I agree with you and it sad. I even wrote that person an email because we became friends in my short time on the threads and I got the same reply by mail. It saddens be and frustrates me.

DeadlyAccurate

03-04-2005, 12:47 AM

Gone now. That was fast, even by their standards. :)

T42

03-04-2005, 12:47 AM

Ha, I just tried to go to Bonnies post and it has me blocked! Go figure...hahahha

underthecity

03-04-2005, 12:53 AM

Bonnie,

I am so impressed with that post, and I think it's too bad it's gone already. However, I like to think that a good number of authors read it and are starting to think.

From what I've noticed in reading your previous posts, other authors over there listened to you, knew you, and respected you. I don't know if I can say you were "big shot," but you tried to help so many other authors with your store and various bits of wisdom.

I'm wondering if you can repost the message before you get blocked? It might not hurt to repost until you're banned.

Awesome. Wish there were more over there like you.

underthecity

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 01:09 AM

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 01:12 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11752.htm

Message:
Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

So, therefore, the people on your list may have purchased your book up to
three months ago, and the purchases might still not be credited in the
February statement, but would be included on your August royalty statement.

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

----------------------------

-----------------------------------

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 01:12 AM

Appears that some authors are trying to "do the math" over at PA.:Headbang:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8040.htm

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 01:15 AM

Bonnie, I wonder if you are banned yet?
I thought your post to them was exteremly coherent, in fact, I have your address, and I'll be sending you a t-shirt! That was a great letter and their post is absolutely in line with the reason Ed calls them the three stooges...what crap, excuse me, I mean...what crap.

I wonder how the post FROM PA to Bonnie says it's from Bonnie once you get into it.

T42

03-04-2005, 01:19 AM

I sent this letter to our “200 friend”. I’m sure he will send it straight to Pa. How sad for him that they already got the same info from me the other day.:faint:

John,

I am an author of PA that has had my book “printed” by them and I am wondering just how much PA pays you to be there “spokes person”? You should be ashamed for giving these people hope and justifying PA as a legit company. Do you believe in what comes around goes around? Do you sleep well at night?

What makes you think a company that cannot even get the authors books in the stores will get your new “200 magazine” in stores? Are you for real?

Facts: Their royalty contract is only a royalty contract on paper. They claim they will bear all the expense of publishing your book and then pay you royalties, but in reality, and in a nutshell, this is how it works.

Submit: You feel good about your choice. You have researched many publishers and have selected this one.

Accept: Oh, rapturous day! They love your book and want to publish it and give you a royalty contract to boot!

Typeset: From your file, they will typeset your manuscript and design the book.

Cover and More: A staff artist produces a cover while someone in the office assigns an ISBN and arranges for the copyright.

Online Proof: You cannot really see anything but the front of the book, which looks great. Not happy with the picture they chose so they send you a new idea. Still cannot really tell what it will look like on the book but it seems to look okay on the online proof.

Production: Upon your approval, they will put your book into production.
You're ready to go, right? Wrong.
Nowhere in this process has anyone edited or proofed your book other than you. You have had minimal, if any, input regarding the cover. You have also signed away many of your rights to the publisher. The only way the publisher will print more copies is if someone orders them through bookstores or if you pay for them.

According to your promotions and basic letters sent to anyone questioning PA, Barnes And Noble, along with Boarders are your main buyers of PA authors. This has not been the case as of yet.
In practice, this publisher will charge you to buy your books at a 25%-30% discount. So, if they put a $20 retail price on your book, you will pay between $14 and $15 per book and this does not include the shipping and handling cost. A book, which cost the publishers about $3.00 to make.

As quoted by Shawn from PA:

The retail price of the book is $19.95. It will be available from our website for $16.95.

PublishAmerica offers the following author discounts:

1-20 copies: 20%
21-49 copies: 30%
50-99 copies: 40%
100 or more copies: 45%

On the upside, you can sell each book for a $5-$6 profit, but only in direct sales. Do you personally know that many people who want to buy your book? On the downside, it would be financially unreasonable for you to peddle them to bookstores because booksellers want a 40% discount. In real dollars, the bookseller will pay you $12 for your $20 book-a book for which you paid $14 or $15. You'll lose money on each sale.

John,

I wrote B&N a letter and then followed it up with a phone call. (Mary Ellen Keating is the vice president of B&N) This is a copy of there reply to me concerning selling our books in there stores and doing book signings.
I dare you to post all of this on the PA threads. It would be taken off immediately as would you!
I lasted less then a week on the threads because I dared to ask questions.

Dear Memory McDermott
Your letter to Mary Ellen Keating was forwarded to me for a response as mydepartment manages the business relationships Barnes & Noble has with newstart up publishers, and self-published authors, like yourself. All the titles PublishAmerica produces are available to Barnes & Noblecustomers either through orders in the stores, or online via Barnes &Noble.com (www.bn.com (http://www.bn.com/)). The books are printed (on demand) when they areordered, and shipped to the customer's home or back to the store forcustomer pick up. The terms for Publish America titles are not competitivein the trade bookstore marketplace: the books are non-returnable, thediscount is not favorable, and most of the titles including Tea for TwoNature's Apothecary are about $5.00 over the going price for titles in thecategory. These factors in combination inform our decision not to stock thetitles in the stores, and for the stores to decide not to do an event withthe titles. I hope this information is helpful.
Marcella A Smith
Director Small Press & Vendor Relations
Barnes & Noble, Inc
122 Fifth AvenueNew York, NY 10011

Sheryl Nantus

03-04-2005, 01:19 AM

I won't say it here.
Bonnie

:Ssh:

snarky SOB's, ain't they?

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 01:19 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

--------------------------------------------------------------- You tell those jerks that you'll kiss an ape right on its pink heiny before you apologize to them about anything - the nerve of those crooks! Bonnie, I read your earlier post, I so respect and admire what you did, I would give you a thousand of these "respect point" deals if I could. You are one classy, classy lady.

Sheryl Nantus

03-04-2005, 01:21 AM

problem is, I think 200AuthorBoy really believes his own methods will work when others have gone down that road and failed.

it's not just him, it's all the newbies who rush into the bookstores flush with author's copies in hand and asking for orders to be placed.

however, anyone who DOES go in for this 200authors thang should really consider having their heads examined.

T42

03-04-2005, 01:23 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

So, therefore, the people on your list may have purchased your book up to
three months ago, and the purchases might still not be credited in the
February statement, but would be included on your August royalty statement.

We will expect your prompt apology.

PublishAmerica Author Support

---------------------------------------------------------------
And how dare you take that tone with us!
Ha, you go girl:banana:

Thank You,

Sher2

03-04-2005, 01:27 AM

Dear Ms. Gibson,

You accomplish nothing but reducing your own credibility by making such
nonsensical and barely coherent accusations.

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

So, therefore, the people on your list may have purchased your book up to
three months ago, and the purchases might still not be credited in the
February statement, but would be included on your August royalty statement.

We will expect your prompt apology.

Thank You,

PublishAmerica Author Support

---------------------------------------------------------------
Bonnie, your letter to PA was awesome, as was your board post. Go, Bonnie! AuthorNonsupport's reply to you is all too typical -- and truly nonsensical -- and I hope you gave 'em what-for in your response. I also hope you told 'em hell will freeze over before you apologize. You'll probably get the "dramatic escapade" letter next. Don't let it faze you. Keep blasting 'em back with both barrels.:Clap::Cheers:

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 01:28 AM

Obviously the guy pitching the catalog knows nothing about the business. To give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he's basing it on some businesses [e.g., rubber stamp and other craft/hobby companies] that charge for their catalogs. However, they almost always refund the catalog cost with one's first order.

underthecity

03-04-2005, 01:31 AM

Your royalty statement will only show sales from that royalty period for
which we have been paid. Some retailers and distributors have a grace
period of 30, 60, or even 90 days. Any sales not shown on one statement
should certainly be included on the next.

Ummmmmmm, I'm confused. I thought the books had to be prepaid, meaning that if one wants a copy, one pays immediately for it. Does amazon.com work that way? If you buy a copy off of amazon.com, you pay for it right away. Does amazon.com then send PA the payment, who then prints it and sends it?

If that's the case, the infocenter is full of s**t like everything else they shovel out.

But, I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

underthecity

Trapped in amber

03-04-2005, 01:36 AM

But not before I got a few choice words in. I also got a number of emails from friends at PA supporting me. I'd like to say thanks to them.

Bonnie

Bonnie, that was wonderful, I hope lots of people saw your post before it went, and I'm so glad other PA authors are supporting you; you deserve it.

:Sun:

Dolan

03-04-2005, 01:39 AM

Does this mean that you are going to stop stocking my PA book in your bookstore?

I like you a lot! Better times ahead, escapades, tones and all that.

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 01:40 AM

Dear PublishAmerica Author Support,

Accomplishing nothing was exactly what I did when I signed a publishing contract with you people. I simply expected that y'all would pay correct and honest royalty amounts for my books based on sales, and it's obvious that's not been the case here at all. The deceit and duplicity taking place is resonating through me, and I seriously wonder what is going on with y'all and your escapade. You will not be receiving any consideration from me until I receive a corrected traditional type royalty statement. I'll bet that Mr. Travis Tea is not having any problems at all regarding his royalty checks.

I'm giving PublishAmerica a couple of weeks to produce an accurate royalty statement, if that doesn't happen, well, I will explore further avenues of redress for this situation.

T42

03-04-2005, 01:42 AM

Ummmmmmm, I'm confused. I thought the books had to be prepaid, meaning that if one wants a copy, one pays immediately for it. Does amazon.com work that way? If you buy a copy off of amazon.com, you pay for it right away. Does amazon.com then send PA the payment, who then prints it and sends it?

If that's the case, the infocenter is full of s**t like everything else they shovel out.

But, I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

underthecity
Underthecity,
I got a royalty check from PA ($1.36) for a book my friend bought at amazon in Jan. I was told from PA that my books wouldn't go into the stores until March. I think they were stating that so that I wouldn't get my check until August but they decided to send it to me because I am such a trouble maker for them. Who knows with them. I'm sure that they can't even keep up with the lies they tell.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-04-2005, 01:43 AM

That's very cool. Good 'ol Locus magazine. It seems you can't read it online, but I will attempt to grab a copy next time I'm at the 'ol BN.Y'all beat me to it--I just got my copy today and saw the article. In Locus it's mostly preaching to the choir, I'd think, but every little bit of publicity given this issue must help!

Kate StAmour

03-04-2005, 01:46 AM

Bonnie,
Looks like it's time you ordered your t-shirt.

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 01:59 AM

Bonnie,
I have been banned three times at the PA boards. And now they are not returning my mailings so consider yourself part of the group now!
My royalty check was the same whopping $1.36. MMMMMMmmm now where's that happy meal for us happy happy PA authors:)

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 02:00 AM

My check came today...$9.14
6 bought with the 18% discount
3 bought with a 40% discount, and I say with the others questioning this on the PA boards, who gets 40%
Well, sold a whopping 9 books, without marketing at all, might have been able to sell 10 if I'd tried.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

03-04-2005, 02:00 AM

Exactly. And the corollary to this is, these people are not just the longest to figure it out (as others have so aptly stated); these people are the longest in denial once they do start to figure it out. If only stupid people get scammed, then admitting to being scammed is tantamount to admitting to being stupid.I agree with you up to a point. However, I'd say that most of the cohort of PA'ers who post on their boards aren't exactly splitting atoms. The brainpower there is underwhelming.You may be right. I'm in no position to comment on the collective brainpower of the PA forum members. But then I wasn't specifically talking about PA authors (though I'm sure that some of them do fit the description)--just commenting on the sad pattern that can often be found when people who think they're too smart to get scammed, get scammed.

That said, I should note that the key here is "those who think they're too smart to get scammed." Even a Bear of Very Little Brain can fall into the cycle of humiliation and denial if they have the mindset of "only stupid people get scammed," and then they get scammed. It's more a matter of self image than of actual brain-power.

Kevin Yarbrough

03-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Snarzler said: "Second, I think Kevin should put the SW/PA posts into a book. I have a policeman buddy who would just love to own it.

Snarzler, I think the cop who paid me a visit might like a copy as well. Maybe next time I will autograph it for him.

Patricia

03-04-2005, 02:17 AM

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 02:21 AM

Can you imagine what would happen to PA if Joyce, Lynn and HB turned on them? They'd be out of commission in a week!

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 02:21 AM

I think it's possible that PA took their message to Bonnie down so very quick because of her standing with the other authors. She really did a great thing today!

KellyS.

03-04-2005, 02:21 AM

You know it's a wonder that BN stores don't have a nice little sign by the register saying that while they will NOT stock PA books, they will special order them for you. Would save them some repeating. lol

Sher2

03-04-2005, 02:25 AM

Steve Fosset's solo flight (a dream accomplished) and Bonnie Gibson exposes PA on their board. (a feat up until now was near impossible) However, because she has a trust factor with the authors, I think much was accomplished.
Now, if only we could announce the dissolution in disgrace of PA, we could all go to bed happy people tonight. ;)

Christine N.

03-04-2005, 02:27 AM

That 30, 60, 90 day thing... I think applies when someone orders a book from B&N or Amazon, or (god wonders if it ever happens) walks into a bookstore an orders one.

Yes, the customer has to pay up front, but the retailer may have that time frame to pay. Or Ingrams may have that time to pay PA. The money goes from customer to retailer to distributor to PA, to...PA, to..PA....
Oh, and a tiny part to the author.

I think that's where the "you might have money in the pipeline" comes from.

P.S. You go Bonnie !! take a :thankyou:

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 02:40 AM

...based on the following:

1. For the past 4-5 weeks, the number of new PA releases each week has totaled around 70-90 books, far less than the 250-300 per week of just a few months ago.

2. They have taken a public relations drubbing. The AP article, the Washington Post article, and then our good pal Travis Tea comes along. I think that the synergy of the AP article, the WP article, and "Atlanta Nights" has really put a hurtin' on PA. Just do a Google search on PublishAmerica and all you will see is page after page of negative articles. It wasn't that way at all just a few months ago.

3. I think Bonnie has hurt PA pretty badly - she was one of the most respected authors over there, and the fall-out from her situation is not going away anytime soon, in fact, I think we are seeing only the beginning of the potential negatives coming towards PA from that.

4. Another interesting dynamic taking place - more and more people are willing to take on PA now. Authors unhappy with PA now realize that many others feel the same way they do, and are now more willing than ever to challenge them. Look at the different writer's boards and read the current comments about PA, most are very anti. And don't discount this thread, we currently have 58,748 views as we speak. Folks, I've even gotten several emails recently from people who say that this is the best soap opera going today, a true life literary scandal unfolding with each additional post that's added.

Bottom line, if I were Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem I would be fastly packing my grip and looking for a good long term vacation hideaway...

Patricia

03-04-2005, 02:41 AM

Subject: Gone gone gone my post

Message:
You weasel!

People will find out who you really are.

Bonnie

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 02:50 AM

Bonnie, are your ears ringing? You just gotta know that three people are talking about you tonight! LOL, this is great, and that other post, they are wondering if they should dare take it down, what a cover up! To late though, haha

Sher2

03-04-2005, 02:52 AM

Bottom line, if I were Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem I would be fastly packing my grip and looking for a good long term vacation hideaway...
I somehow don't think this is a problem for them. I'll betcha they keep a git-away-quick bag packed and their passports updated. Of course, God only knows which one of them has custody of the bank book.

My royalty check came today. I'm proud to say I can now afford to buy several Big Macs -- and fatten myself up a mite if I was of a mind to. Hope I can resist the urge.:Smack: Still, the amount is laughable. Let's just say it's less than what I'd pay for a decent hardcover book. What I'm more proud of is that I lifted not one finger to promote that sucker. :wag:

KellyS.

03-04-2005, 02:55 AM

I tried to post again just to see if I could. I can't still, but would love to post in that weasel post! Go, Bonnie!!

Need to ask a question again. On my statement it shows a discount of 55% for one copy and UK is shown after that. Does that mean a UK site sold a book and if so, why the huge discount? Any clues? I wish it hadn't sold any, but if they think selling 3 books in six months is lucrative, then I guess I will have to hope for no sales at all the next time.

Hey Sher2, I will gladly pay you Tuesday if you buy me a hamburger today.

Hey, should that be my motto as a PA author?

NancyMehl

03-04-2005, 02:58 AM

Well, still no check for the books I ordered from Amazon in April. Do you think PA is ignoring me???? :cry:

Bonnie,

You're a nice lady. I'm really sorry you're going through this. I still remember the sick feeling I got when I realized I'd been taken in by PA. It will take a while to get on the other side of that. Our work is important to us. We poured our heart and soul into it.

Right now it isn't funny. But...ya now what? PA can't touch your talent. They can't take your dreams unless you choose to give them away. I have two books coming out this year from reputable publishers - my agent has another one - and I am working on a brand new one. PA is just a bad memory. It will be that way for you, too.

Hang in there. :Hug2:

Nancy

triceretops

03-04-2005, 03:04 AM

Worst Case Scenario:

Author contacts fee agent and pays fee to be placed at PA

Signs Contract with PA, gets $1.00

Author launches campaign:
Buys flyers
Mass book purchase (100-300 copies)
Book signings (travel expenses, gas)
Business cards
Book marks
Trade and newspaper ads
Publicity agency (big bucks)
Review copies
Give-away-copies
(Very similar to what Crab Cakes and Pepper man did--thousands of dollars)

Hires Lawyer to break contract (more bucks)

Hires Literary lawyer to finish what lawyer #1 was unqualified to do (bucks)

Finally breaks contract

Pain and suffering:

Meds

Liquor

Credit Card interest

End result:

Quits writing (FOREVER)

Reason: (The publishing industry is too harsh--it was a mistake to even enter it. Besides, too much competition).

I wish I could say that this was a scenario but it was not. Most of this happened to a youngish female who had her parents come to the financial rescue. The family is so embarassed that the whole matter has been snuffed and they choose to remain "unknown quantities."

Please do not ask for this person's identity under any circumstances for that is my Sworn promise to them. It just goes to show how devastating a snowball PA can create, once a down hill ride is unstopable. I'm willing to bet that this has happened to others of the 11,000.

Does anyone dare care to fill in the $ amounts that cost this person to HOPE for print? Are there any lurkers, trolls or PA authors who can possibly defend a company that indirectly or directly causes such an abismal tragedy?

I think not.

Tri...did everything I could to help her...ceratops.

pike bishop

03-04-2005, 03:15 AM

where or where is HB he has gone away does not post much any more he slipped away when travis tea was taking on publishamerica thru amazon you think he was catching heat from publishamerica and could not travis tea you think why old capt of the uss publishamerica is gone to has anything with the chaos old tyravis carsed publishamerica travis tea is gone yes but others wait for the right time to ride aginst publishamerica our travis tea had nothen to do with the book atlanta nights except make it a best seller check out crispy on amazon wonder who that is uh

Galoot

03-04-2005, 03:17 AM

Bonnie, did you post the weasel message (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11750.htm) or is some shMOE impersonating you, trying to discredit your earlier message?Bonnie Gibson

3/03/2005
16:37:20
Subject: Gone gone gone my post

Message:
You weasel!

People will find out who you really are.

Bonnie

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 03:31 AM

I couldn't get in to read anyone answering me. They caught it and banned me from there too.

Hey Bonnie,

FINE SHOW! :Clap:

Both threads are still up. If you're interested in the above, drop me an email at webmaster at tavonreiman.net

Jonathon

Patricia

03-04-2005, 03:32 AM

Bonnie, did you post the weasel message (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11750.htm) or is some shMOE impersonating you, trying to discredit your earlier message?
Yes, I believe Bonnie did do that one too. PA has somehow missed it.

Sassenach

03-04-2005, 03:33 AM

End result:

Quits writing (FOREVER)

Reason: (The publishing industry is too harsh--it was a mistake to even enter it. Besides, too much competition).

I wish I could say that this was a scenario but it was not. Most of this happened to a youngish female who had her parents come to the financial rescue. The family is so embarassed that the whole matter has been snuffed and they choose to remain "unknown quantities."

Does anyone dare care to fill in the $ amounts that cost this person to HOPE for print? Are there any lurkers, trolls or PA authors who can possibly defend a company that indirectly or directly causes such an abismal tragedy?

See...this is Darwinian, and if one failure [albeit messy] is going to her stop writing, then so be it. A lot of writers have prevailed over much worse rejection. E.g., A Wrinkle in Time and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance were rejected 100+ times. Ironweed was rejected 40 times.

If the publishing world is too cruel for this young woman, so be it. I agree that PA's a scam and has taken terrible advantage of people and their dreams.

I'm hopeful there are many talented PA'ers who'll recover and get even instead of mad.

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 03:35 AM

Bonnie is my new personal hero.
She was such a strong force in the PA 'family' and I believe everyone here knows what a powerful weapon she is in our arsenal.
I applaud you stepping out and calling them on their BS.

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 03:38 AM

LOL...funny Bonnie
On another note, I'm listening to HB right now on that radio show, and he sounds right at home, sounds nothing like some of you described him last time, he is pretty funny also.

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 03:38 AM

I did it. I did the weasel post. I confess.

This is my favorite response:

Bonnie may not respond. There seems to have been a slight disagreement between her and her publisher.

:guns:

Ya think?

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 03:40 AM

someone needs to post that "Bonnie can't respond as she is banned now like everyone that dares ask a legit question or dares not to drink the koolaid at the camp"

Patricia

03-04-2005, 03:45 AM

someone needs to post that "Bonnie can't respond as she is banned now like everyone that dares ask a legit question or dares not to drink the koolaid at the camp"
Tina,

I would love to do that -- except I want to be able to post in the future when it will count against PA. Bonnie is doing OK with that one and I think that poster got her point across with the way she said "her publisher." I think most in the know, probably got the drift of it.

Uncarved

03-04-2005, 03:46 AM

Yes I agree.
Just would be terminally great to see that in a post. Soooo many authors there think that the authors just get pissed off and leave or stop posting. They don't realise they are Banned until they themselves get banned.

edited to gloat: I've given away 30 copies of my PA cookbook today alone (in pdf form so that no one makes a dime off it). One just gushed at its greatness (natch) and wanted to pay for it. I was about to break my wrist typing back for her not to do that, lol...told her to give it to whoever she pleases. I don't care if I ever see another cent off it, but I damn sure don't want PA making anymore off it either. Does me good to know that people enjoy it though, thats my royalty;)

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 03:49 AM

Artistfirst Radio / Author-First Radio Program
http://www.artistfirst.com/

A PAer friend of mine just asked me about these guys because he'd approached them for an interview, and they demanded a "donation" before they'd set anything up. I'm not sure how much. I've tried searching their site, but it's pretty scant about how to get in contact with the author first dj, unless it's the same person for all the programs.Then it looks like he's on "vanity radio," where you have to pay to be on the air. It's amazing, don't people (HB in particular) realize that when you pay for an agent, and you pay for a publisher, and you pay to be on a radio program like this that something is badly wrong?

bikrpreacher

03-04-2005, 03:54 AM

They are asking HB about PA, and the Attorney General, 20/20...hmmm
HB is saying there are two authors, named, ...wow, hope you are all listening to this, he's talking about this site, but not naming it, started to name names.
Talking about Kevin's book. Saying publishers only read the first thirty pages.
Would you like to tell everybody that publishamerica is an up and up company...and HB is saying did you read the contract, making fun of people who are against PA, also saying that these people are paid to be anti PA.
Talking about the message board (PA one). Oh, the DJ is talking great about the PA web site, celebs and stuff. What a set up...however, HB is doing a good job I gotta give the man that.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, another add to THE post:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11750.htm
Message:
You know, Bonnie has been a good friend to PA and their authors by shelving books in her store. She did that as a service to her PA family and I don't blame her for being frustrated!

I may be banned for saying this, but frankly the royalty statements and explanations are so nebulous. Bonnie was a NYT PA bestseller and I can imaginge that she's reeling since advertisements in a national paper like that haven't garnered more sales.

I see this "family" becoming more and more dysfunctional and I think if we want the industry to take us all (including PA) seriously, we'd better figure out a way to resolve issues on these boards!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bonnie, you may be gone, but never forgotten! Thanks for giving so many of our books a fair chance in your store!

AnneMarble

03-04-2005, 04:02 AM

Yes, I believe Bonnie did do that one too. PA has somehow missed it.

Looks like lbs might be leading the next wave of rebellion after posting something supportive of Bonnie...

I guess it's dinnertime in Frederick.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 04:18 AM

problem is, I think 200AuthorBoy really believes his own methods will work when others have gone down that road and failed.

What's really sad about the affair is that 200AuthorGuy is truly persistent and innovative when it comes to marketting. Nevertheless, his efforts will most likely come to naught because of who his publisher happens to be. Many small and niche presses like having someone like 200AuthorGuy among their authors. And they would back him up with returnable books that are much more reasonably priced, as well as other little publicity extras.

akaa1a

03-04-2005, 04:22 AM

I'm hearing the private message board is hoppin' too!

Not just from "Bonniegate"..but a few other dissentions are brewing! The thought of selling books from car trunks is losing it's lustre! Too bad we can't stop in and throw a life preserver to them!

If you can see this Private PA Boarders
:Cheer:
you are cleared to land! Welcome!

astonwest

03-04-2005, 04:24 AM

edited to gloat: I've given away 30 copies of my PA cookbook today alone (in pdf form so that no one makes a dime off it). One just gushed at its greatness (natch) and wanted to pay for it. I was about to break my wrist typing back for her not to do that, lol...told her to give it to whoever she pleases. I don't care if I ever see another cent off it, but I damn sure don't want PA making anymore off it either. Does me good to know that people enjoy it though, thats my royalty;)

Right there with you...I've given away four hard copies of my book this week...not sure how many PDF versions I've sent out...

victoriastrauss

03-04-2005, 04:25 AM

HB is saying there are two authors, named, ...wow, hope you are all listening to this, he's talking about this site, but not naming it, started to name names.Whose names, Chris? Did he actually name Kevin?

- Victoria

realitychuck

03-04-2005, 04:25 AM

First of all, Bravissimo, Bonnie!

This article has an analysis of Amazon sales rankings that might interest PA authors: http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm

Briefly, they did an analysis of the rankings. They have determined:

1. A ranking of 1,000,000 translates into a sale every other month.
2. A ranking of 2,000,000 translates into about two sales total.
2. A single sale for a book ranked >2,000,000 can improve the ranking by 500,000.

Picking a PA book at random ;), the Joe Shmoe Show indicates a current ranking of 1,722,486. That's probably about 3 books sold via Amazon.

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 04:26 AM

...any PA authors who have had enough are more than welcome to come here and join us, you will be among friends. Life is too short to take the abuse regularly meted out by your publisher, and coming over here is step one towards getting your publishing career back on the right track. Lots of good advice and information await you here from successful authors, agents, and publishers - we'd love to have you!

(PA authors, by the way, if you need another reason to join us, here's something posted in response to Bonnie by one of your own, it pretty well speaks for itself):

Ha Ha.

I thought that we were responsible for our own promotion and sales? Why would we be mad at P.A. for not getting some enormous royalty check?

I think people need a reality check instead.

You aren't world famous folks. When you are your royality check will reflect it.
If your check was small, think how P.A. feels. They put up the bucks to publish your book. Do you think they got their money back? I Don't.

Scream all you want, cry, scratch your computer screen for all I care. Your published and that's all. You're not famous. You have to make it so.
Good luck with that part.

Sher2

03-04-2005, 04:29 AM

I did it. I did the weasel post. I confess.
"Judge, I did it, I just couldn't take it anymore."
"That's okay hun, them jerks needed it. Thumbs up to you."
At the conclusion of the trial on the fraud, harassment, drama, and scary tone charges PA filed against Bonnie:
PA's Attorney: "Your Honor, we ask that you find the defendant, Miz Bonnie, guilty as charged and sentence her accordingly."
The Judge: "Sir, one question -- whose idea was it to send the bogus cop with no ID to Miz Bonnie's house in the middle of the night and scare her half to death?"
PA's Attorney: "I -- ah, you know -- er -- hmmmm, I..."
The Prosecutor: "Your Honor, I move that the plaintiffs and their lawyer be taken into custody and locked up forthwith."
The Judge: "So ordered. And it will be the further ruling of this court that the plaintiffs and their counsel will pay to Miz Bonnie immediately all royalties due her, an amount to be determined for her pain and suffering with regard to contracting with PA, an additional amount to compensate her for her heart palpitations the night of the patently illegal visitation, and compensatory damages for breach of contract on the plaintiffs' part and termination of said nonsensical contract effective as of right now. Bailiff, haul these stooges on over to the jail. Court is adjourned." :banana:

Medievalist

03-04-2005, 04:29 AM

One thing I've often wondered about is why PA doesn't tell authors how many of their books are printed.

When you have an account at LS you get a logon and you can see exactly what you ordered, when, what stage in the process it's at, etc. It's really useful. You can also go back in time.

PublishAmerica is the customer, so authors can't get "their" data; you'd probably have to chat up an attorney and judge to do that.

But PA certainly knows how many were printed.

Oh, and shipping data is listed too--because LS will ship wherever you want.

The only conclusion I can draw is, like con artists everywhere, it's in PublishAmerica's interest to withhold the data. The ninety days before royaly accoutning is equally bizarre; PublishAmerica wants cash up front, even for single copy orders.

Gratian Gasparri

03-04-2005, 04:44 AM

...and HB is saying did you read the contract, making fun of people who are against PA, also saying that these people are paid to be anti PA. Talking about the message board (PA one). Oh, the DJ is talking great about the PA web site, celebs and stuff. What a set up...however, HB is doing a good job I gotta give the man that.

If this keeps up, I give HB about another three months before he crosses over. First, the more HB has to defend PA to the outside world, the more research he has to do about PA, literary scams and the publishing industry.

Secondly, there's a greater possibility of HB being left to dry on something, or of HB catching PA in a lie.

Thirdly, when that something clicks, the next thing that will go through HB's brain is: "I'm their biggest booster."

So my prediction? Three or four months from now, we will be saying: "Take it easy on the new guy, HB. Remember at one time you were PA's biggest booster, so be gentle with those who are still struggling to come out."

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 04:50 AM

Mr. kas,
When we signed with PA, we were under the assumption that major bookstores would sell our books, only to find that they want no part of a PA book since it is POD and way overpriced. I don't care how good the book is, people do not want to spend $20 on a book that is sitting next to another for only $10 or less...and the same size. How do you compete with that? I wouldn't buy a PA book off the shelf for $20, not even $15. I don't have that kind of money to support my reading habits. That's the reality check. Bookstores don't want us! There's not enough family members and friends that feel obligated enough to buy them. So, what do we do? Stand on a street corner and sell them? If these books were available, and priced the fair price, at least we would have a chance at more sales. No one is talking about being famous from our books. We just want a chance to sell them with our publisher's support. And, that my friend, is where our deficit is!

Pull up another chair, and don't forget the coffee. :Coffee:

Ed Williams

03-04-2005, 04:56 AM

...y'all might want to take another look:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8032.htm

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-095.gif

P.S. I've gotten, in the past fifteen minutes, two emails from PA authors who are madder than hell about the royalty situation, both are saying they know they sold more books than they are being credited with. Imagine that, Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem cheating someone?

Duncan J Macdonald

03-04-2005, 04:57 AM

(PA authors, by the way, if you need another reason to join us, here's something posted in response to Bonnie by one of your own, it pretty well speaks for itself):

Ed, The one after that is a beaut ... pull up another chair for Dreamer:
Dreamer

3/03/2005
20:28:09

http://www.publishamerica.com/messageboard/icons/sleep.gif RE: Gone gone gone my post

Message:
Mr. kas,
When we signed with PA, we were under the assumption that major bookstores would sell our books, only to find that they want no part of a PA book since it is POD and way overpriced. I don't care how good the book is, people do not want to spend $20 on a book that is sitting next to another for only $10 or less...and the same size. How do you compete with that? I wouldn't buy a PA book off the shelf for $20, not even $15. I don't have that kind of money to support my reading habits. That's the reality check. Bookstores don't want us! There's not enough family members and friends that feel obligated enough to buy them. So, what do we do? Stand on a street corner and sell them? If these books were available, and priced the fair price, at least we would have a chance at more sales. No one is talking about being famous from our books. We just want a chance to sell them with our publisher's support. And, that my friend, is where our deficit is!
Dreamer

Christine N.

03-04-2005, 04:57 AM

I agree, I think lbs and that other poster will be joining us soon. lbs has had quite a few negative (by that I mean, legitmate questions) things to say lately.

And Mr. Kas - was that a Freudian slip? "royal-ity check"?

Jonathon Michaels

03-04-2005, 05:13 AM

There's nothing to fear from people expressing fear and frustration...unless the person they are talking to is just as afraid as they are.

This is one of the most insightful statements ever to be soon deleted from the PA boards...

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 05:15 AM

Unlike everyone else who wants to sell books, I'm frankly quite bummed that two copies of my PA book sold.

I DON'T WANT ANYONE BUYING MY BOOK! :Smack:

Don't get me wrong; it's a good book. But like any work, it needed the benefits of one of those li'l ol' editors that PA eluded to employing. Heck, how was I to know that their "editors" consist of their overworked janitor who waves his toilet brush over a manuscript and proclaims it holy and complete. As a result, my book is a generous serving of cowpie placed upon a gen-u-ine Scamming-Ware plate.

Thank you PA.

Oh...and DON'T BUY MY BOOK! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/pullhair.gif

Sarashay

03-04-2005, 05:16 AM

How exactly is PA "taking a chance" on them? They don't print books unless they've been paid for, they don't lift a finger to help authors get in bookstores, hell, they don't even pay for the copyright! Somebody explain to me exactly what "chances" PA is taking?

'shay

Patricia

03-04-2005, 05:17 AM

:eek: First I'll address "Mr. Kas." He is the loyal PA Booster who brags on the boards about how much he paid a professional editor to edit his book before he submitted, or re-submitted, I forget which. He has some connection with an editor due to his employment and got a decent review about his book, and because of that I think he believes himself to be credible to knock any complaints against PA.

To those of you still able to get into the private boards: PA has chosen to leave Bonnie's post because the boooooosters are like mad dogs. So far, I've only seen one author support her. There are two threads going and I had to leave before reading all of them, I was getting like a feeling of rage. Not healthy!

Literary Lola

03-04-2005, 05:18 AM

My husband who was a publisher for many years and
now writes for the music publisher who bought his
business, read the contract and said it was as good as
any he had ever signed. Since he succeeded in his
business, I trust him.
If this were moi, I'd be a widow doing hard time.

reph

03-04-2005, 05:20 AM

From the royalties thread, posters' names omitted:

Message:
I too am very disappointed in my total sales. I've checked on all the on line sights, some claim to be out of stock, new ones on the way, and some claim to have used copies, considering those facts, I should have sold more than my statement reflected. It's makes me wonder if someone is lying to us.

Message:
I was disappointed with my statement because I know I worked very hard promoting, talking, sharing flyers in and out of my state. I know I worked my butt off since last october, my hubby sold and promoted my books even before that. To say he was shocked is an understatement. I know two bookstores ordered and stocked my book so these may be reflected in another statement.
I can't believe that all the work I did and I only sold two books! Any comments?
I had just started a wonderful novel and was on a roll...I now have writers block.

Would either (or any) of the lawyers following this thread comment on the possibility that I just now violated the posters' copyrights by pasting their material here?