Writing and Education [Archive] - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Susan Gable

07-02-2005, 03:40 AM

Sunandshadow, you've got to expand your romance selection. <G> Most of mine have featured some very topical issues in them. (from surrogacy to organ transplants to teen pregnancy.) They're not just "fluffy" stuff. And I refuse to write down. I don't let my writing become so lyrical that it interferes with my story (actually, lyrical writing is something my line frowns on) but I don't think I write down. I get annoyed when people want things "dumbed down." If the reader doesn't know a given word, they can either figure it out from context or go look it up. But I don't feel I need to change a word because a reader might not know it. (Of course, the vocabulary I use also depends on the character in whose POV I am. Some of my characters have better vocabularies than others.)

I do not think you need a college degree to be a writer, and I'd actually recommend that someone who wants to write and get a college degree get a degree in something other than English. :) Because as long as you have all the basics down, it's all those other things that are going to feed your writing. The English stuff gives you the tools (which you can get from English classes without making it your major) but the other classes will fill the well, feed your soul, give you many other things to think about. At least, that's my opinion on it.

And you can do it without a college degree, too. :-)
Susan G.

DirtySyko

07-02-2005, 03:46 AM

If you've got the basic tools of your trade - decent grammar, spelling, etc - and can tell a good story, it doesn't matter what academic qualifications you have.

Publishers don't care if you've got a degree as long as you can write.

Good luck - and stop panicking.

How could they just not care if you have a degree or not? Wouldn't an agent or publishing company be more prone to accept a MS from somebody who actually has an education in the field?

Plus it's not just about college with me, it's also about highschool. I'm 19, and I didn't graduate... Though I do plan on getting my GED (Which basically is the equivalent of a diploma now anyways.)

You see, I've always liked testing people's limits, going over the line, and just being a nuisance. Highschool was the perfect place for me to misbehave and test people. I didn't fail because I was dumb, far from it. Hell, I find myself to be a lot more intelligent and educated than a lot of the people in my class who did graduate, but that's what being conceded does to you. So during school I got into a lot of trouble, and sometimes I would miss many, many days in a row, just for s**** and giggles. Here is an example:

When I was a senior in English I was top of my class. I had a 98%, highest grade out of everyone else, and the teacher liked me on a scale that most of his other students weren't on. He picked favorites, I was one of them. Then came a time where I stopped coming to school for over a month. I just vanished. When I came back he kicked me out of his class, and I failed senior English. I went from #1 to joining the other flunkies. I never did well in Math, because I didn't take it seriously. Same with Science. History and English were my babies, because I always loved learning and being a writer has been with me since grade school. (I won a competition in grade school to meet the author of "The Giver" because of an essay I wrote.)

So that's that. I never graduated highschool, and I'm scared this will seriously effect my outcome in the writing world. I'll get my GED, I'm not worried about that... But I just don't know what it's going to be like when people realieze I don't have much of an education behind me, and how agents, publishers, and editors will be able to take me seriously.

I've always thought school was a joke, and I still do. A lot of their teaching methods I don't agree with, and I did a lot "self teaching" to myself.

Thanks to anyone who decided to take the time to read that little tid-bit of my life.

Susan Gable

07-02-2005, 03:50 AM

How could they just not care if you have a degree or not? Wouldn't an agent or publishing company be more prone to accept a MS from somebody who actually has an education in the field?

So that's that. I never graduated highschool, and I'm scared this will seriously effect my outcome in the writing world. I'll get my GED, I'm not worried about that... But I just don't know what it's going to be like when people realieze I don't have much of an education behind me, and how agents, publishers, and editors will be able to take me seriously.

All they care about is your WORK. Your writing will speak for you. If you have the ability, quite honestly, they could care less. When you send your work, you're not going to say in your cover letter, oh, by the way, I only have a GED. Nope. You don't mention it at all. It won't matter. It's the work they want to see.

Oooo, you met the author of The Giver? That is such a cool novel.

Now stop fretting and go write something. :) Your posts are already far more articulate than some I've seen. Best of luck to you!

Susan G.

Medievalist

07-02-2005, 03:54 AM

No one will care about your level of education if your writing is up to snuff. Read a lot, write a lot, and revise a lot.

Sure, it's a good idea to get your GED, and you might find it helpful to take a few college classes, but it's not required.

James D. Macdonald

07-02-2005, 03:56 AM

You wouldn't believe the number of MFAs who couldn't write a commercial story to save their lives.

Read. Write. If you're weak in some area improve that area.

Your story stands on its own. When you pick up a novel you don't check whether the author has a degree in writing before you pull it off the shelf, do you? Neither do other readers.

pepperlandgirl

07-02-2005, 05:05 AM

Tish Davidson

07-02-2005, 05:06 AM

You see, I've always liked testing people's limits, going over the line, and just being a nuisance. Highschool was the perfect place for me to misbehave and test people. I didn't fail because I was dumb, far from it. Hell, I find myself to be a lot more intelligent and educated than a lot of the people in my class who did graduate, but that's what being conceded does to you.

Yeah, and it helps to be able to spell conceited, too, before you start bragging about how intelligent and well educated you are.

Ace

07-02-2005, 05:22 AM

Honestly, though, as the memories of high school are fresh in my mind, spelling conceited incorrectly is nothing compared to many of the people who graduated with honors. You should have read my school's newspaper. It would make your head explode. You would think it was from an ESL school in inner city Baghdad.

Jamesaritchie

07-02-2005, 05:44 AM

I didn't know where else to post this...

What are your opinions when it comes to education and writing? To be a successful writer do you need a college degree? If someone doesn't have an education what should they do to try to get their name out there?

With a world so focused on whether or not somebody has a piece of paper they aquired by spending thousands of dollars in school, it's kind of nerving to wonder if it's possible to get anywhere without one.

I'm firmly on the side of as much education as possible. You can always go through history and find exceptions here and there, but they really are the exceptions, and you can bet every last one of them gave themselves the equivalent of a college education, and then some.

Now, I started selling fiction as a high school drop out, but once I started college I also learned more about writing well in six months than I had in all the years before college put together.

It is certainly possible to be a highly successful writer without a college degree of any kind, but I seriously doubt it's possible to be a highly successful writer without giving yourself at least as much of an education as you would get by going to colllege, and that isn't easy.

College simply has too many advantages, too many like-minded people around, too many experts, too much grade-instilled discipline, too many great libraries, too many professors, too much knowledge on any subject, to easily duplicate the college learning experience on your own.

Just run down the list of the top one hundred or so bestselling writers and look at their education level. It's astounding how many have college degrees.

I agree with UJ about the number of MFAs who can't begin to write a commercial story, but I don't think this has much to do with the value of a college education. No college education can teach talent, and those without talent will fail, MFA or not. But my experience is that if you do have the needed talent, a college education can greatly reduce how long it takes you to put your talent to good use.

I suspect there are two reason for why college grads seem to dominate the successful writers list. One reason is simply because college is a great place to learn, a wonderful place to gain skills to match your talent. The other reason is probably because those who find a way of getting a college education regardless of their circumstances are more likely to be people with drive, ambition, talent, and above average intelligence.

Anyway, my answer is that while a degree is certainly not mandatory for success, at least for a fiction writer, I think getting one will flatten your learning curve tremendously, and will probably take you further than you can go without one. So while a degree absolutely is not mandatory, it is very valuable, and can make the writer's rad a great deal less bumpy.

reph

07-02-2005, 05:47 AM

How could they just not care if you have a degree or not? Wouldn't an agent or publishing company be more prone to accept a MS from somebody who actually has an education in the field?
For nonfiction, they care. You have to know the subject you write about, and that usually means credentials. For a novel, they don't care. Colleges don't exactly train novelists.

A general education helps with writing. You need to learn something about everything. Pepperland girl made this point; it's worth repeating.

You see, I've always liked testing people's limits, going over the line, and just being a nuisance.
Try that here and I'll be the first to lose patience with you.

Jamesaritchie

07-02-2005, 06:02 AM

For a novel, they don't care. Colleges don't exactly train novelists.

.

I'd say the number of successful writers who have college degrees, particularly in English lit and journalism, is pretty good evidence that colleges really do train novelists, and do so pretty darned well.

Mistook

07-02-2005, 06:07 AM

I do think having a college degree is important to be a good writer. I don't think it matters what the degree is in. But it's important because:

1) Getting through college and obtaining a degree is all about discipline. Can you get all your reading done on time? Can you write multiple essays and turn them in by the deadline and get a high grade? Can you commit yourself to attending all the class periods? BIC is a popular mantra around here, and that's all about self-discipline.

2) A scope of knowledge. Attending a liberal arts college will give you an oppurtunity to take classes in many, many areas. I know that my sociology, philosophy, astronomy, and history courses helped me just as much, if not more, than my English courses.

3) I know I said it doesn't matter what degree you get, but I think an English degree is particularly helpful. The worse writers I've read are bad because they don't understand the mechanics of writing. They don't know what's good and bad because they've never read good or bad! They don't know how to break a story down and build it up. Some people know this naturally, some people need to learn.

4) Meeting people. Lots and lots of people. People you love, people you hate, people you are indifferent to, people who change your life for the better and the worse. And with lots and lots of people come lots and lots of experiences, and all of that is fodder for your writing.

5) A sense of accomplishment. Finishing that first novel and that second novel is pretty goddamned satisfying. so is walking with your degree. It's worth it and it'll give you a taste for it and it'll make you want more.

6) Practice! Write as much as you can, either by yourself, with a group of like-minded people you meet on campus, or in a class environment. Also, connections...it's a good time to make them.

Nobody is going to care if you have a degree, it's true. Nobody asks. And it won't make you a great writer or a good writer. But the experiences you pick up on the way? The things you learn? The people you meet? The self-discipline? Yeah, all that stuff will make you a good writer.

Actually, the same arguments can be made for not going to college. Going into the workforce and paying the bills right out of High School takes as much discipline as finishing assignments. As with getting a high grade, getting a large paycheck has to do with how quickly you can adapt to a job, and how willing you are to clock some overtime.

More importantly, I'd say that the long string of jobs I've held over the years has given me more practical insight than college ever could have. For instance, I worked for a few years as a cable & telephone lineman. You wouldn't believe the "behind the scenes" views that job gave me. It took me into homes of both the rich and the poor, into every conceivable place of business, and always I got to see the attics, the basements, the places normal people don't get to go.

That's invaluable knowledge for a novelist.

Just think what the mailroom, printshop, and local drug store taught me, not to mention that year I was a freelance web designer. As for book education, I gave that to myself over the four years I worked shelving books at the public library.

Lately I've been doing general maintenance, so you can add plumbing, electrical, HVAC, carpentry, and appliance repair to the list of things I'll never get caught misrepresenting in a story. And again, this job takes me into, under, and over the homes of a wide variety of classes, ethnic groups, and religions. Great for character development and scene setting.

I'd say it is definitely possible to round yourself without ever getting a college degree.

sunandshadow

07-02-2005, 06:08 AM

Sunandshadow, you've got to expand your romance selection. <G> Most of mine have featured some very topical issues in them. (from surrogacy to organ transplants to teen pregnancy.) They're not just "fluffy" stuff.

Well topical is not really what I'm looking for - I meant more like elaborate worldbuilding and exploration of philosophy and sociology. But if you know or any particularly brainy historical or sff romances I'd be happy to hear recommendations. :)

reph

07-02-2005, 06:08 AM

I'd say the number of successful writers who have college degrees, particularly in English lit and journalism, is pretty good evidence that colleges really do train novelists, and do so pretty darned well.
Begging your pardon, sir, but it might instead show that kids who wanted to write novels chose lit or journalism as their major. The English courses I took sure didn't tell me how to write fiction. They gave me a lot of practice in writing term papers, though.

sunandshadow

07-02-2005, 06:12 AM

So during school I got into a lot of trouble, and sometimes I would miss many, many days in a row, just for s**** and giggles.

You do realize, don't you, that writing a novel takes a lot of self-discipline and patient, determined daily effort?

sunandshadow

07-02-2005, 06:16 AM

I'd actually recommend that someone who wants to write and get a college degree get a degree in something other than English. :) Because as long as you have all the basics down, it's all those other things that are going to feed your writing. The English stuff gives you the tools (which you can get from English classes without making it your major)
That's not entirely true - 400 and 500 level English classes, the cool small seminars, are generally reserved for English majors and grad students.

Ace

07-02-2005, 06:36 AM

For nonfiction, they care. You have to know the subject you write about, and that usually means credentials. For a novel, they don't care. Colleges don't exactly train novelists.

You do know that this was posted in the "Writing Novels" forum, don't you?

Try that here and I'll be the first to lose patience with you.

You sound surprisingly like my English teachers. It didn't sound like the original poster was trying to be a nuisance. Just think that for everyone's attitude you dislike, there's someone who dislikes yours.

Richard White

07-02-2005, 06:43 AM

Personally, I'm going back to college 23 years after I got my degree in History. I wasn't a great student back then, but it's amazing what a stint in the military will do for you.

I figured if I'm going to be serious about this writing stuff, (and since I do it anyway for my day-job (techwriter/editor for a government contractor), I might as well get some training in it. So, I'm going back to get a degree in English (yeah, another degree I can starve with) and this time, I think I'm going to go all the way through to my Masters.

Going to take a bit at 6 credits a semester, but at least I get to skip most all the general studies classes since they're crediting the work I did for my original BS in History.

Figure while I'm there, I might as well take some interesting electives too to round out some of the blind spots I've spotted in my writing so far.

Yeah, there's a lot you can learn on the outside. The School of Hard Knocks is still a valid school, but a little formalized focus on things never hurt either.

reph

07-02-2005, 06:47 AM

You do know that this was posted in the "Writing Novels" forum, don't you?
Oh, yes, but many people write novels and other forms. For instance, some decide to take day jobs as technical writers while working on novels.* Giving the information can't hurt. Besides, DSyko seemed incredulous that publishers wouldn't want to see a degree. I assured him that sometimes they do, just not for novels.

*Richard White, just above, provided a real-life example while I was writing this post.

Just think that for everyone's attitude you dislike, there's someone who dislikes yours.
I'm not sure the numbers are equal, but if someone dislikes my attitude, that's his or her privilege.

Medievalist

07-02-2005, 06:47 AM

Jamesritchie wrote:

College simply has too many advantages, too many like-minded people around, too many experts, too much grade-instilled discipline, too many great libraries, too many professors, too much knowledge on any subject, to easily duplicate the college learning experience on your own.

Speaking purely in terms of North America, I disagree strongly.

You learn to write college papers in college, especially with an English degree. If you're lucky, you might learn close reading, or how to take apart a text and put it back together, but generally the sorts of literary analysis undergraduates are taught to engage in today isn't going to do a damn thing for them in terms of writing novels or plays or earning a living.

If you take creative writing classes and workshops, you might, if you're lucky, learn something about revision and possibly, about crafting a story or play or poem, but it's not likely. You certainly aren't going to learn anything useful in most undergraduate programs about writing that people will pay to read. In fact, you may have heaps of scorn piled upon you for indicating an interest in writing for money, or, worse, genre fiction.

An adult with an income to earn and contemplating a first undergraduate degree would do much much better to read a lot, write a lot, revise a lot. Repeat until published, then start over.

After a lot of read-write-revise, try to go to the better writing workshops, Clarion, for SF, for instance, or Viable Paradise, also for SF. I suspect that there are others for other genres, but those are workshops where people I know who have taken them have benefitted, and the teachers are people who actually write for a living.

It's astonishing to note how many professional writing teachers who teach poetry/drama/fiction college classes aren't themselves published in a commercially viable or widely distributed form. The reason for that is that, in general, they see themselves as teachers who write, not writers who teach; there's a profound difference.

Cathy C

07-02-2005, 06:52 AM

I'm probably not the best one to respond to this, as I stepped out of the fourth grade with a college level comprehension and vocabulary and kept increasing that. I agree with bits and pieces of pretty much everyone here, and in some cases they even contradict! LOL! My personal opinion (FWIW) is:

College is wonderful for those who believe they will benefit from it. I didn't. I was way past it in high school and it didn't have much to offer. I did, on the other hand, seek out professors who had classes that interested me and obtained copies of the lectures from the previous years. That was plenty for my purpose. Learning is learning, from whatever source. Textbooks are cheap and plentiful at pretty much any university bookstore, and I have a number of them on my shelf to refer back to.

But for fiction writing, if you already have the skill, I agree that the publisher won't care if you're a chimpanzee living in the jungle. They just won't put your photo on the back cover!

I absolutely agree with Susan that there's a wide variety of SFF romances that you would like. You might try Dorchester's 2176 series that Susan Grant created. The first one of five, The Legend of Banzai McGuire (I think...) was based on the concept that five female fighter pilots for the military were captured and frozen by people from the year 2176, so they would awake and be able to help bring freedom to the people of what was formerly the United States. The worldbuilding was superb and touched on the sociological issues of smaller countries merging (think about the North & South Korea issue and the UAE) so that they could compete with the other superpowers and everything getting out of hand, like telecom mergers. An excellent read.

But overall, education is a wonderful thing, and every day I learn something new because I want my books to make readers think and to satisfy even the pickiest expert on a subject. Today I researched Caspian Tigers from the Turkish/Iranian borderlands. It took hours, all for a few character traits that my shapeshifter will exhibit as instinct.

Overall, I agree with everybody who said to write the book and don't worry about your education unless some area of your writing skill is lacking. :D

DirtySyko

07-02-2005, 07:13 AM

Yeah, and it helps to be able to spell conceited, too, before you start bragging about how intelligent and well educated you are.

You must be biased against the slightly illiterate.

Perhaps it's all of the drugs I've done that caused the receptors in my brain to fry and now I can't remember how to spell certain words. One must assume that if somebody hasn't finished highschool they must be on some serious drug binge.

It's my mission in life to seek out the best urinals around and to sniff cocaine off them.

You do realize, don't you, that writing a novel takes a lot of self-discipline and patient, determined daily effort?

Of course. I'm not oblivious and I never presumed the writing industry was going to be a cake walk. Just because I hated school doesn't mean I'm an uncontrollable hazard to society... Highschool didn't appeal to me, writing gives me a reason to live. There is a big difference.

Some of you are giving me mucho help, and it's appreciated, while others seem to be picking me apart. That's alright, we all have different means of going about something. I just didn't know some of you were so "righteous." If you had it your way I'd be cooking your grease spewing meals for $5.25 an hour, because I couldn't correctly spell conceded.

A big thanks to the people who filled me in with their experience and opinions on this issue.

victoriastrauss

07-02-2005, 08:03 AM

If you've got the basic tools of your trade - decent grammar, spelling, etc - and can tell a good story, it doesn't matter what academic qualifications you have.On the other hand, a good education will give you a lot more material to write about.

- Victoria

SeanDSchaffer

07-02-2005, 09:20 AM

Hello DirtySyko, it's good to meet you. Welcome to AW.

I personally think that if you're able to tell the story with the education you have, go for it. I don't have much more education than you--I graduated H.S., that's about the only difference between us educationally.

Some people will get on your case about misspelled words. That's only natural for a board with several hundred members worldwide--I forget the exact amount of members at AW, somewhere I think I heard we had 2,000 or something like that. But I digress. The point is, that's a lot of people with a lot of different attitudes. Out of all those people, there are always going to be some who differ greatly with you. That is to be expected. Don't let it get to you.

I couldn't tell you the statistics or any of that stuff, I only know that I myself would not have been able to handle college. I could barely handle high school and almost didn't graduate. (Personal problems; I won't go into it.) But I enjoyed writing, and so that's the career I chose. I have yet to be disrespected openly by any serious writer because of my education. I have been openly disrespected by a psychologist once because I didn't want to go to college to be a novelist, but he was not a writer. Again, I've never been disrespected by a real writer because of my lack of education.

Like so many others have pointed out on this thread, when writing a novel what matters is your work, not your credentials. If you were writing non-fiction, as pointed out above that would be a different matter. But if you're writing fiction, and can tell a great story with the education you presently possess, that's what editors are looking for.

So basically the long and the short of what I'm saying is this: if in writing fiction you believe you have enough education to do the job, then you should do the job. Don't put yourself through more education if you don't want to. That's the beauty of higher education: it's not a requirement in writing fiction.

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of success with your writing.

And have a good Fourth!

:Sun:

BlueTexas

07-02-2005, 09:25 AM

On the other hand, a good education will give you a lot more material to write about.

- Victoria

So will working the 9PM to 6AM shift at a diner. Messier, but no better place to learn about people and their underbellies, which can really drive a novel. Not that this is a good long-term choice for anyone but the most sadistic among us, but there's my .02.

Samuel Dark

07-02-2005, 11:12 AM

I believe that, because of the lack of training a lot of schools do with English, that it might be helpful to go to collage for writing. But, when it comes to actual writing...I think its an art. Not something that people teach you, but something you learn. By trail and error. By seeing what people like of your style, keeping that, and then adding new things and taking the old out. Thats what I have done. And it works. I still have much to go, but it's not with my style, its with my grammar. And, of course, it's with researching. :/ thats a new topic for me. lol

AnnaT

07-02-2005, 12:57 PM

1) Getting through college and obtaining a degree is all about discipline. Can you get all your reading done on time? Can you write multiple essays and turn them in by the deadline and get a high grade? Can you commit yourself to attending all the class periods? BIC is a popular mantra around here, and that's all about self-discipline.

So true. Anyone can pick up a history book and teach themselves about the Russian Revolution. I think that getting a degree is more a matter of showing that you are able to play the game. It's not about learning Fact A or Fact B, but about learning how to learn, which is what all school is about.

I was a teacher for a while. I didn't see my job as teaching the children "This is the letter A", but more that I wanted them to WANT to know what the letter A was. I wanted them to look around, to be interested in something, to feel that drive to find out. If they could get that, then they could learn anything. Of course I was lucky because I was teaching preschoolers, and didn't have to deal with standardized tests, etc. It was more of a social/behavioral program.

Back to the topic, I don't think going to college is necessary for writing. I will say that most of the writers I like the most do have a degree. However, they have mostly scientific/technical degrees, not arts-oriented ones. I haven't figured that out yet.

Mistook

07-02-2005, 02:29 PM

Post deleted due to the fact that I was three sheets to the wind when I wrote it.

Kiva Wolfe

07-02-2005, 05:31 PM

Don't let a lack of a degree hold you back. In writing, life experiences matter a lot. Write what you know or can believeably imagine. A college degree will give you important tools, but isn't going to give you a special insight into the human condition, or even the discipline to write. I majored in Anthrolopology and was fortunate to put it to use in the museum field, but I was hardly a writer. Taking a few online writing classes took me from thinking about writing to doing it. Whether you're self-taught, naturally gifted, or need structure to rally the brain and hone your writing skills, take charge, find out what you need, and then go get it.

Carlene

07-02-2005, 09:58 PM

Gary Provost, one of the greatest writing teachers I've ever had didn't go to college. His family couldn't afford it. Gary graduated high school and started traveling. He took any job he could to support himself and he wrote and wrote and wrote somemore. He learned his craft by doing, then he shared it with others. Gary always said if you want to be a writer - write everything. He published numerous articles, true crime books, fiction, even a romance, and some of the best writing books ever. He was a super teacher and always encouraged me to never give up. Because of Gary, I am a writer today.

brinkett

07-02-2005, 10:11 PM

On the other hand, a good education will give you a lot more material to write about.

You can people watch anywhere. :)

Jamesaritchie

07-03-2005, 12:38 AM

As I said, a college degree is not a requirement. There will always be those who succeed without a degree of any kind. But I strongly suspect those who argue against the value of a degree have never been to college. It's a whole other world.

College can't be compared to high school. There is no similarity. I don't know many people who enjoyed high school, but to steal from Mark Twain, the difference between high school and college is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug. It's almost like the difference between being a five year old at home and an adult with your own apartment and job.

I hated school, but college is not school. In college, you're an adult. In college, you study what you want to study. In college, most of those silly high school rules go out the window.

Of course there are those who succeed without college. Gary Provost is a good example. But these people are the rare exceptions, and until you prove you are an exception, it's taking one heck of a chance going that route.

And I don't understand for a minute why someone doesn't go to college because his family couldn't afford it. Whoever said your family is supposed to pay your way? You're an adult, so pay your own darned way. I don't care what college you check out, a fairly large number of students there will be doing just this. Paying your own way is what being an adult is all about.

And, yes, travel also helps those who want to be writers. I can learn all about Mexico on the internet and by reading books, but I've spent time in Mexico, and it isn't at all the same. And and all hands on life experience a writer can get is extremely helpful.

But back to a college degree. Just because you can find exceptions here and there really means nothing except that you're probably met/found a truly exceptional person. You may be one yourself, but until you prove it, it isn't a wise bet. And simply put, the numbers of those who succeed with a college degree versus the number of those who succeed without one are overwhelming.

And one other thing, realism, should also be pointed out. The odds of any given individual becoming a successful writer with or without a college degree are extremely slight, to say the least. If you're talking about actually making enough money from writing to support yourself, you may as well be playing the lottery.

If nothing else, a college degree will almost certainly get you a much better job when writing doesn't work out. High school degrees just don't count for much in the job market, and anyone who thinks it's fun going through life without enough money to support a family, pay all your bills, and have a reasonable amount left over for pleasure just hasn't lived that way long enough. Even most peripheral writing jobs in the media or in publishing are far easier to obtain if you have a college degree.

Sure, you can become a successful writer without a college degree. Of course you can. There will always be those who succeed without a degree of any kind. But they will always be in the minority, the rare exception.

And if you don't succeed, you're one heck of a lot better off not succeeding with a college degree to fall back on. The world gets more technological, more degree oriented every year, and the world produces more and more and more people every year who do hold degrees. For the vast majority of people, life without a degree of some kind is not going to be a very pleasant experience.

Tish Davidson

07-03-2005, 12:56 AM

I couldn't agree with James more. College is not just about putting in your seat time and taking classes. It is about being part of a community actively engaged in learning, challenging ideas, and expanding knowledge. It is a chance to explore new areas of interest, meet people from outside your normal sphere, and investigate and argue various concepts and ideologies.

You can choose to participate as much or as little as you want, but the people who get the most out of the college experience are those who interact with their peers, seek out professors on a one-to-one basis, take some classes in areas they don't think will interest them, go listen to guest speakers, etc. College teaches you the self-discipline to budget your time and money and meet deadlines (other things do too). This is especially true if you are working your way through yourself.

The university is a whole different world, and your attitude can make or break what you get out of it. A person who goes to college with the goal only of of getting a degree in a certain field as quickly as possible because they think the degree is a ticket to a job that pays a lot will have a completely different experience from someone who goes to college because they want to learn more about areas that interest them and may lead to a career. And both these people will have different experiences from the person who goes to college because it is the path of least resistance and they don't know what they want to do after high school.

Tom Lehrer said, "Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it depends on what you put into it." You can sub college in for life, and the statement is equally true.

Mistook

07-03-2005, 02:55 AM

Just want to apologize right quick for my previous post. I violated my personal rule not to post here when drunk. :(

Medievalist

07-03-2005, 03:53 AM

But I strongly suspect those who argue against the value of a degree have never been to college. It's a whole other world.
Not exactly; I'm excessively degreed; B.A. English, M.A. English, second M.A. English, C. Phil, in, yes, English, about to become Ph.D. in English.

I teach English undergraduate composition and literature classes, and have done so at three universities, humanities research institutes, and Fortune 100 companies. I've worked in various areas of publishing since 1989. I can find my work in book stores pretty much anywhere I go. I've served on admissions and scholarship committees at two universities. In other words, no, it's not a case of sour grapes, or anti-education bias. I actually think going to college is a great idea--if you can pay for it, and if you're clear about why you're doing it.

The initial question was:
To be a successful writer do you need a college degree?

The general response has been no, but it doesn't hurt.

Then the question became:

Wouldn't an agent or publishing company be more prone to accept a MS from somebody who actually has an education in the field?

As Reph pointed out, an "education in the field" matters for non-fiction, but for fiction, not so much.

If you're asking about an education in "the field" of fiction, that's pretty much going to be English, though the degree or major might be called creative writing, or possibly, journalism.

For someone who is supporting himself, who is not likely to be given a scholarship, and who, in order to attend school full time is going to either go into debt or endeavor to work full time and go to school, in order to learn to write material that will earn a living, . . . getting an undergraduate degree in English is, well, daft is the most polite way I can phrase it.

I say this not to be harsh but because I see these students, usually just a couple of years older than their peers, struggling to juggle their time and energy, and most of the time not really doing well in school, or at work, or writing or personally.

You can always go to school later; in fact I notice older students outstripping the kids all the time. They know how to buckle down and work, they know how to plan and prioritize, and they know they're going to be paying hard earned money for their education, so they take it seriously. That's not to say the regular students don't or can't do the same, but a large number of them don't and can't, and drop out.

Ultimately the way to learn to write and to sell what you write, is to write. And it's just not the kind of writing you're going to do in undergraduate English programs. It really isn't.

Now, if you're going to school to learn a particular set of skills for a particular career or in an effort to satisfy a personal hunger for knowledge, those are different reasons. And I see nothing wrong in going to school to get a degree in a particular subject--even English--in order to advance yourself in your job.

But you still have to figure out how to pay for school. And it's getting harder and harder all the time.

Jamesaritchie

07-03-2005, 06:41 AM

Even a degree in English will take you many more miles down the road of life than no degree at all. Nothing is a fast ticket to a high-paying job, but no degree at all is pretty much a guarantee that you'll never have a high-paying career.

A degree in English can, for example, open up the entire business of publishing and editing, both of which can be pretty decent jobs, and at least let a person work around writing. And I know a pretty high number of MFAs who are earning big bucks because of their degree.

The most important thing anyone who wishes to be a fiction writer can do is write as much as possible, and tied for first place is reading as much and as widely as possible. But even many successful writers can't get by just by writing fiction.

And even successful writers who can get by with fiction alone seldom do this quickly.

I think it's a heck of a lot more important be be extremely clear about why you're NOT going to college than about why you are. Paying for college is not all that difficult. I did it, I have nearly a dozen neices and nephews who did it, and none of us came out with much debt. You don't have to go to a 30K per year school. There are still many good colleges around for 12K, and under, if you commute. But I don't care if going to college puts you 50K in debt, the average person will still come out far ahead in the long run.

Not going to college is one heck of a lot bigger decision than going. And you'd better be real clear about why you're not going, and what the likely results will be. Those who say they can't afford to go to college must have no idea how much not going will cost them.

All I can say about those struggling students is take another look at them twenty years from now. Not getting some sort of degree is a dead end road for most people.

And writers, well, I have trouble arguing with numbers. When I see such an incredibly high rate of successful writers who have a college degree, and such an incredibly low number of successful writers without one, it really makes me believes there more than just a little value to a degree.

But writer or not, life is almost certainly going to be one heck of a lot harder without a degree, and you can scratch a few thousand job possibilties off the list.

SRHowen

07-03-2005, 07:13 AM

I'll just add that saying that you are a little bit illiterate is like saying you are a little bit pregnant. You have to be literate to be able to write. You have to have very good grammar skills, be able to apply BIC, and you must be articulate --enough so to tell an engaging tale.

Writing involves getting the perfect picture in your head onto the page so others can see the same snapshot. If you lack the skills to do that--no matter how many classroom hours you put in, you won’t sell a story.

Unless you sell non-fic, you don’t start your query letter by saying==Hey, I have a degree in such and such.

BUT-I can think of those whose degree is mentioned on fiction--the Gears are one couple who write prehistoric fiction. They have degrees that certainly make their books come alive with realism.

Do you have to have a degree to write a good story? No. It’s not a selling point in a query letter--unless see above. Do you have to have the stick-to-itness of flypaper? You bet. Do you have to have good grammar skills? You bet. Do you have to spell well--it sure helps. And if not, you have to be able to reread what spell check looked over and read what you wrote. Collage (an art form made up of many parts to make a whole) for college (place of higher learning) conceded (finally admit or agree that something is true) vs conceited (excessively proud of oneself)--and anyone who uses spell check sees those errors right of way and says--they used spell check and can’t even read what they changed it to or understand the difference.

That won’t look good to any agent or publisher, no matter the education level.

brinkett

07-03-2005, 07:20 AM

But writer or not, life is almost certainly going to be one heck of a lot harder without a degree, and you can scratch a few thousand job possibilties off the list.
I know a number of people without degrees who are successful using any measure, or are successful because they're doing something they love. I also know a number of people with degrees who are overworked, stuck in a grind, and dream of the day they can retire. Of course, I also know people with and without degrees where the converse is true.

You can do something you like and make enough money to live on without a degree. Many do. The important thing is to figure out what you want to do and then if it makes sense to get a degree, go to university. If not, you can still go, but you don't have to. Everyone's different -- there isn't a one size fits all answer.

Mistook

07-03-2005, 07:32 AM

Even a degree in English will take you many more miles down the road of life than no degree at all. Nothing is a fast ticket to a high-paying job, but no degree at all is pretty much a guarantee that you'll never have a high-paying career.

On a purely conceptual level, this makes sense, but it doesn't square with what I've seen with my own two eyes. Two of my oldest buddies never went to college, and both of them are now living very comfortably. One has risen through the ranks of 3M to head regional network operations, and the other is a highly paid technical consultant in the field of network security.

Both are highly intelligent guys, endowed with pluck, and charm. Both started low on their respective totem poles, but had a way of proving themselves invaluable and earning promotion after promotion. In both cases, their employers have paid to further their technical training. People very much will pay your education expenses if you are worth it.

Will they write novels? I doubt it, but to the naked question of whether sucess in life is contingent upon a formal degree, I'd say, "Not necessarily."

On the other hand I know a woman with a PHD in psychology. She's prepetually unemployed. She was very good at being a student, but she can't stand actual work.

I also have a friend who earned a journalism degree. He's got a great job doing financial writing for Money magazine. Having known him as a teenager, I know he once dreamed of being a novelist, but somewhere along the way that flame went out. Maybe he'll get it back, but what do you want to bet it will be me who lights the fire under his arse?

When we were still in High school he once joked to me, "The nightmare for my life is that one day I end up being your editor."

All it would take is my finished manuscript and a phone call to make that nightmare come true for him. He wouldn't be an industry editor of course, but he wouldn't be able to resist giving my MS the flogging that could possibly result in it's publication.

Anyway, all I'm saying is, whether you are inside or outside academia, it's conviction and ingenuity that matter most. No institution can help the person who seeks the path of least resistance, and no institution can stop the person who sincerely plays to their own strength.

Euan H.

07-04-2005, 05:28 AM

THE ECONOMIC VALUE OF HIGHER EDUCATION

[C]ollege graduates, on average, earn more than high school graduates. Over an adult's working life, high school graduates earn an average of $1.2 million; associate's degree holders earn about $1.6 million; and bachelor's degree holders earn about $2.1 million (Day and Newburger, 2002).

[Discussion of fees]

These statistics support the contention that, though the cost of higher education is significant, given the earnings disparity that exists between those who earn a bachelor's degree and those who do not, the individual rate of return on investment in higher education is sufficiently high to warrant the cost.

OTHER BENEFITS OF HIGHER EDUCATION

College graduates also enjoy benefits beyond increased income. ...[C]ollege graduates enjoy...higher levels of saving, increased personal/professional mobility, improved quality of life for their offspring, better consumer decision making, and more hobbies and leisure activities.

...

[N]on-monetary individual benefits of higher education include [becoming] more open-minded, more cultured, more rational, more consistent and less authoritarian; these benefits are also passed along to succeeding generations (Rowley and Hurtado, 2002). Additionally, college attendance has been shown to "decrease prejudice, enhance knowledge of world affairs and enhance social status" while increasing economic and job security for those who earn bachelor's degrees (Ibid.)

From: http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-3/value.htm

In my opinion, James is right. If you can go to college, you should. I don't agree that it will necessarily make you a better writer (although I think it will help--not the kind of writing you do, but the ideas and knowledge you will encounter).

What will make you a better writer (although that doesn't encessarily mean 'publishable') is:

Writing a lot
Reading a lot

And doing both mindfully--thinking about what you're doing instead of just going through the motions.

Anyway, that's my 2c.

Mistook

07-04-2005, 07:35 AM

[N]on-monetary individual benefits of higher education include [becoming] more open-minded, more cultured, more rational, more consistent and less authoritarian...

At least they refrained from using the term, "less savage".

loquax

07-04-2005, 03:18 PM

The 'subject' of a novel is normally about character interaction. No degree can teach this (I personally think psychology is the bane of the educational universe).

The experience of being with people is gained much more accurately by not going to college. If you go, you will only learn about college students. You won't learn about idiots - you'll learn about educated people. You won't learn about how to raise a family - you'll learn about how to make friends with your peers. Whereas getting a job or travelling will expose you to a whole range of people and sub-cultures, college offers a relatively narrow viewpoint.

And the learning of discipline doesn't matter if you already have a final MS, does it?

brinkett

07-04-2005, 04:22 PM

At least they refrained from using the term, "less savage".
No kidding.

Among my circle of family and friends, some went to college/university; some didn't, about the same number of each. You wouldn't be able to tell who is who based on how much money they make, how cultured they are, how satisfied they are with their life, whatever. I've got friends who went to university but struggle financially, and those who didn't but are doing very well for themselves. Some degrees are useless when it comes to getting a job that will make you actual cash. Averages don't mean a hell of a lot; you could have a small number of graduates making bags of money and the rest scraping by.

Medievalist

07-04-2005, 08:19 PM

You won't learn about idiots - you'll learn about educated people.

I just wanted to point out that these two categories are not mutually exclusive.

Really. Trust me on this.

Meg

07-04-2005, 09:41 PM

reph

07-04-2005, 10:46 PM

The experience of being with people is gained much more accurately by not going to college.
Not sure about that. When I went to college, there were plenty of people around. Some of them were idiots, too. Maybe Medievalist and I went to the same college?

You won't learn about how to raise a family - you'll learn about how to make friends with your peers.
You were supposed to learn making friends in high school.

I'm sorry, Ben, but I find what you posted laughable. College students are people. So are college teachers and other employees. I learned about people by observing them there. The range of human experience doesn't divide naturally between "college" and "reality."

loquax

07-04-2005, 11:09 PM

Reph, are you telling me that students fresh out of college have nothing else to learn about people?

NeuroFizz

07-04-2005, 11:27 PM

Hi, All. Just returned from a prolonged research trip and this thread caught my attention. The question here is an interesting one. I just moved institutions after twenty-four years of teaching/research at a major US university (fifth largest, student population-wise). As for the value of credentials in fiction submissions—my sixty-plus scientific publications don’t mean squat. Fulbright, Guggenheim—squat. Does it at least raise agents’/editors’ eyebrows? I have no evidence that it does. Non-fiction is another story. I’ve had agents come to me with non-fiction projects after I sent a fiction query. So, in answer to part of the original question, the best things to have are fiction credits. Unless college degrees provide specific experience (and credentials) in writing fiction, my guess is they will not sway an agent or editor.

Will the subject matter covered in the many college courses completed by a graduate help that person write better fiction? The pessimistic answer is, only if the author is writing about the college environment, college graduates or college chums. Even this can be debated, but many will argue that experience is the best instructor in writing fiction. So, what advantage does a college degree impart? Many of the most important lessons that people learn in their four (less or more) years of college are about themselves. Things like constructive argument, critical evaluation of controversial information, dealing with authority figures, dealing with peers from a variety of backgrounds, attention to deadlines, controlled procrastination, aspect of social interaction, just to mention a few, are all rolled into the college experience. Can people get the same types of experience outside of the college experience? Of course. But, all this is done in an environment of discovery, academic challenge and intellectual expansion in the college atmosphere. Again, not unique to it, but few other experiences are so loaded with it. Can that make a person a better fiction writer? That answer is going to be all over the map. I suspect it helps more often than it hinders/is neutral combined. But, again, there are many students who go through four years of college and do little more than spend a lot of Daddy’s money (apologies to all of you, like me, who had to pay the bills for themselves).

This isn’t a total waffle on the subject. I’ve tried to tell it like I see if from my direct experience. There are some students who “blossom” intellectually. If they are into writing, they may become much better writers. There are just as many students who sleepwalk through. If they are writers, they may be no better off. And I am sure there may students who “blossom,” but who become no better in the writing department (the opposite also true). That’s the beauty of writing fiction, I think. What’s inside a person at the time she/he writes is more important than any framed pieces of fancy paper that hang on the wall over the computer. And I think that will be evident to agents/editors if the product is of high quality (mechanically and esthetically).

Do I recommend attending college? He**, yes. The opportunities for intellectual development alone are more than worth the cost. But it’s not for everyone, and it shouldn’t be.

Cheers, NeuroFizz

Tish Davidson

07-05-2005, 12:05 AM

Actually, this is a question I've been struggling with a lot lately. I attend a well-known all-women's college, and I hate it there. I have strongly considered transferring to a less prestigious school closer to home, but I'm not sure what that would do to my chances at a decent writing career. If I truly set my heart on freelancing or writing fiction, I would switch schools immediately, because in that case I don't think the degree matters. In my heart, I believe being a writer has more to do with experience and less to do with education.

If you truly hate your school, you aren't going to get much out of it. My suggestion is to take a break (no one says you have to get a degree in 4 years). Figure out what it is that you hate about your school - location is too far from home, all-girls is not your style, classes seem irrelevant, peers are too "red state" or "blue state" for you, etc. Then visit some other colleges and try to stay overnight in a dorm and find one that suits you better. There is nothing wrong with transferring to a school you will enjoy and be engaged with.

debraji

07-05-2005, 12:20 AM

I don't know why people think college insulates students from the "real" world.

In college I lived with people of different races, religions, and nationalities; worked in a variety of jobs on and off campus; got to see the court system first hand as a grand jury, then trial witness; drank too much, learned how to say "no," and learned how to recover from serious mistakes. And, all the while, whole worlds were opened up to me in the classroom and the library.

It provided just as much life experience as anything else.

Meg

07-05-2005, 12:37 AM

If you truly hate your school, you aren't going to get much out of it. My suggestion is to take a break (no one says you have to get a degree in 4 years). Figure out what it is that you hate about your school - location is too far from home, all-girls is not your style, classes seem irrelevant, peers are too "red state" or "blue state" for you, etc. Then visit some other colleges and try to stay overnight in a dorm and find one that suits you better. There is nothing wrong with transferring to a school you will enjoy and be engaged with.

You're absolutely right. The only reason I'm staying is my fear of the unfamiliar. That's no way to live life.

Medievalist

07-05-2005, 01:33 AM

Meg

You can always hedge your bets; get official blessing from your current school to take a semester/year off, with guarantee of readmission. Then, figure out what you want to do--maybe take classes at a school nearer home, or whatever you need to do.

Mike Martyn

07-05-2005, 03:05 AM

I have degrees in Electrical Engineering and Law and have been pratising law for the last twenty eight years. Do my accedemic and professional credentials help me write good fiction? Absolutely not. What they have done for me is to open up a whole world of people I never would have met.

If 'd taken another career route instead and if it opened up an equally large but different group of people, could I still write fiction? You bet, because fiction is all about people and their lives, their families, their emotions and how they interact.

As for grammar, all I ever needed to learn, I learned in grade eight. Our English teacher was a priest with a big stick who never hesitated to hit us for every mistake we made!

Tish Davidson

07-05-2005, 03:45 AM

You're absolutely right. The only reason I'm staying is my fear of the unfamiliar. That's no way to live life.

Assuming that you leave school through the proper bureaucratic means and don't simply stop going to class, you can always return either to your same school or transfer to another. All you need to do is figure out how to support yourself in some minimal way while you are out of school. The unknown often looks scarier when viewed as a whole from outside than it does when you are actually dealing with one problem at a time - the forest looks unending, but the trees are just trees.

reph

07-05-2005, 04:25 AM

Reph, are you telling me that students fresh out of college have nothing else to learn about people?
Not at all. I'm saying that students fresh out of college have learned more about people than students fresh out of high school.

One thing about college is, you leave home (most people do) to go there. Leaving home is important. Now, inevitably someone will bring up the one exception: Emily Dickinson stayed home, and she wrote great poetry. Okay, but it wasn't published in her lifetime, either.

So let's assume you're more adventurous than Emily Dickinson – the odds are on this assumption – and you leave home. You go to a college in a different kind of setting from home, urban versus rural or whatever. Maybe it's even in a foreign country. People think differently here. They come from all over and bring their values with them. College is a different kind of community from a local high school, too. Your experience broadens.

Of course, other things broaden one's experience as well: work, sports, military, travel, politics. But it makes no sense to say forgoing an experience will make you a better-rounded person. College is one of the experiences that help round a person out. Ideally, you go to college and do some of those other things.

brinkett

07-05-2005, 05:44 AM

Not at all. I'm saying that students fresh out of college have learned more about people than students fresh out of high school.

By the time those students fresh out of high school are the same age as those fresh out of college, they've also learned more about people. Sometimes they have to grow up a heck of a lot faster than kids in college do.

One thing about college is, you leave home (most people do) to go there. Leaving home is important.

People who work right out of high school often leave home too. Most people eventually do. If someone doesn't leave home as soon as they turn 18 or whatever, it doesn't mean they've blown it and will never be able to write decent fiction or have insight into human nature.

Of course, other things broaden one's experience as well: work, sports, military, travel, politics. But it makes no sense to say forgoing an experience will make you a better-rounded person. College is one of the experiences that help round a person out. Ideally, you go to college and do some of those other things.

It depends on what you forwent the experience for. When you chose to go to college right after high school, you missed out on other things you could have done, other things that might have made you a better-rounded person. Some of the most interesting (auto)biographies I've read are about people who never went to college. I agree that attending college can further a person's "life education". So can a ton of other things.

I'm not objecting to the idea of going to college. Depending on one's goals, it can be the best idea; an absolute necessity. I'm objecting to the attitude that it's the best idea for everyone, and that those who didn't attend college missed out on an opportunity for personal growth that can't be achieved any other way.

Euan H.

07-05-2005, 11:21 AM

By the time those students fresh out of high school are the same age as those fresh out of college, they've also learned more about people.

Not true. They've learned about a different set of people, true, but more? That's just not true. At least, it's not true at the level of blanket generalization. It may be true for a given pair of individuals, though.

Among my circle of family and friends, some went to college/university; some didn't, about the same number of each. You wouldn't be able to tell who is who based on how much money they make, how cultured they are, how satisfied they are with their life, whatever.

Point being, how large is your circle of family and friends? 75 people? 150 people? Whatever the size is, its likely to be less than the sample that paper used.

Averages don't mean a hell of a lot; you could have a small number of graduates making bags of money and the rest scraping by.

Well, that depends on the type of average you're using. I'm fairly sure that the averages quoted were medians and not means. But of course, for income, the within group group difference is going to be larger than the across group difference anyway.

The experience of being with people is gained much more accurately by not going to college.

This is just silly. Unless students are somehow excluded from the class 'people'.

Whereas getting a job or travelling will expose you to a whole range of people and sub-cultures, college offers a relatively narrow viewpoint.

This is also silly. Getting a job will expose you to a certain range of people. That range may be broad or narrow, depending on the job, but there's no way to say without getting into the specifics of the job whether that range is broader or narrower than the range of people you'd meet going to college.

As for traveling, it's been my experience talking to people who go backpacking (and I've talked to a lot--I live on the backpacker route in South East Asia) that traveling exposes you to a particular sub-culture, which is to say the group of people who go traveling. The number of travelers I've met who have had any real interaction of the local culture where I live could be counted on one hand. Living in another country...well, that'll expose you to something broader, but traveling through a country? Nope. You'll meet other travelers, in the main.

What’s inside a person at the time she/he writes is more important than any framed pieces of fancy paper that hang on the wall over the computer.
Hear, hear.

reph

07-05-2005, 11:58 AM

I'm not objecting to the idea of going to college....I'm objecting to the attitude that it's the best idea for everyone, and that those who didn't attend college missed out on an opportunity for personal growth that can't be achieved any other way.
I don't believe anyone here has said it's the best idea for everyone. I believe it does change you in ways you can't get otherwise, but it isn't unique in that respect. (Other experiences produce changes of their own.)

What I and a few others find silly is the position, expressed in some posts, that college is a limiting experience or a growth retardant.

SeanDSchaffer

07-05-2005, 12:24 PM

As you all probably know from my first post in this thread, I've not been to college before--with the possible exception of voice lessons at a local Community College for a few weeks--and I originally had no intent on going to college because I did not want to go, frankly.

But as I look into this thread, I see that my main reasons for not wanting to attend college were 1) bad experiences in High School, and 2) pride.

The second reason should be qualified by saying that I had been told by a psychologist that I would never be a published writer without a four-year college education. Well, frankly, that made my blood boil way back when and I told myself I would prove to the gentleman that yes, in fact, I could and would do so without college.

But that second reason bothers me so much, because it is based entirely on foolish pride. I didn't like the tone of the man's voice, and in fact I felt he was acting as though he were somehow superior to me because of his educational background. If anything, I think that may have hurt, and not helped, my chances in the writing field, because it closed my mind to other possibilities that could have enhanced my writing opportunities.

Now I have thought about possibly taking some courses. Having listened objectively to you, my colleagues and friends, explaining some of the values of college courses and their impact on one's writing life, I see college in a much more friendly light than I did those many years before.

I therefore have several questions to ask of you:

1) Would the courses available at a local Community College help me out in my writing, through say, Creative Writing and/or Journalism courses?

2) Should I instead consider a higher college than a Community College?

3) Should I even consider college for myself as I write Fantasy and other forms of Fiction?

4) Finally, what courses would be best for me to search for in the Class Schedules, (My local Community College sends a Class Schedule to every Postal Customer in my area every so often) that would best suit my needs as a writer?

I appreciate any and all replies, and I look forward to reading them.

:)

loquax

07-05-2005, 03:18 PM

Of course, other things broaden one's experience as well: work, sports, military, travel, politics. But it makes no sense to say forgoing an experience will make you a better-rounded person. College is one of the experiences that help round a person out. Ideally, you go to college and do some of those other things.
In the UK, college is a relative death scentence. But everybody does it, because 'everybody does it'.
The minute you leave uni, you are in debt (around 6k). Therefore you need to get a job. There is no casual travelling. The chances are you've met your love at uni, and you want to buy a house. So you do that. Then you have some kids, get promoted and WHAM.

If you don't go to college, the chances are you'll travel a bit, get a few jobs here and there, picking grapes in France, mopping floors in a pub back home, etc. Sure you're not learning about astrophysics. Sure you're not getting drunk and having toga parties (and I understand that this is intergral to the well-rounding of a person). But to me as a writer, the things you learn outstrip the things learnt in college tenfold. If I wanted to be a scientist - fine. I'd go to college, get the degree, get the job. But it's not for the creative mind - as said before - a diploma doesn't matter if you want to be published. Getting one won't hurt you, but there are so many other things you could be doing that it seems a waste.

brinkett

07-05-2005, 04:08 PM

Not true. They've learned about a different set of people, true, but more?

You misunderstood me. I meant more than they knew when they left high school.

Point being, how large is your circle of family and friends? 75 people? 150 people? Whatever the size is, its likely to be less than the sample that paper used.

I'm sure it was. However, I was just trying to point out that there are people who went to college who are miserable and scraping by, and people who didn't go to college who are doing well.

Well, that depends on the type of average you're using. I'm fairly sure that the averages quoted were medians and not means.

What you posted didn't say that.

I don't believe anyone here has said it's the best idea for everyone.

Ideally, you go to college and do some of those other things.

Perhaps you didn't mean it's ideal for everyone to go to college, but it does convey that impression.

What I and a few others find silly is the position, expressed in some posts, that college is a limiting experience or a growth retardant.

We agree on that. My point is that not going to college isn't either. It depends on one's goals and what one does instead.

NeuroFizz

07-05-2005, 05:22 PM

In the UK, college is a relative death scentence. But everybody does it, because 'everybody does it'.
The minute you leave uni, you are in debt (around 6k). Therefore you need to get a job. There is no casual travelling. The chances are you've met your love at uni, and you want to buy a house. So you do that. Then you have some kids, get promoted and WHAM.

If you don't go to college, the chances are you'll travel a bit, get a few jobs here and there, picking grapes in France, mopping floors in a pub back home, etc. Sure you're not learning about astrophysics. Sure you're not getting drunk and having toga parties (and I understand that this is intergral to the well-rounding of a person). But to me as a writer, the things you learn outstrip the things learnt in college tenfold. If I wanted to be a scientist - fine. I'd go to college, get the degree, get the job. But it's not for the creative mind - as said before - a diploma doesn't matter if you want to be published. Getting one won't hurt you, but there are so many other things you could be doing that it seems a waste.

No offense, but you seem to have a very strange view of college. In fact, your comments reek of stereotype. A student gets out of the college experience what she/he puts into it. If one wants to sit back and let things sink in via osmosis, the density of the human cranium immediately will become evident. College and casual traveling aren't mututally exclusive. Even if you ignore Spring Breaks, I'd suggest that students do more summer traveling than most people in that same age group who are not in college. At least in the US. I won't even go into the oppourtunities for international exchange programs and the like that are available to nearly all students. College not for the creative mind? Excuse me? Again no offense, but this view is diametrcially opposite to what a college/university is all about. Toga parties? Sorry, but college isn't accurately reflected in the movie Animal House. Not even close. Well, maybe for a few students, but they won't be students for long in most universities.

You have made one very strong point, however, and I agree 100%. College isn't for everyone. But just because it isn't for some, those individuals shouldn't slam the college experience as a waste of time, and a non-creative experience. Likewise, those who have been to college shouldn't slam those who haven't. Different isn't synonymous with bad. Personally, I would never trade my university education for a publishing contract. The good thing is that I don't have to. No one does. If you achieve your writing goals without a higher education, I will stand up and applaud for you. If you do it with the extra education, I'll do the same. Fortunately, writing fiction is a creative arena that does not require specfic pieces of paper. What YOU put on paper is much more important than fancy printed papers with your name on them.

Now, do I think my post-high school education has contributed to my writing abilities, that it has made me a much better writer? Yes, yes, yes. A hundred times, yes.

Cheers to all, regardless of educational background.

NeuroFizz

07-05-2005, 05:46 PM

I therefore have several questions to ask of you:

1) Would the courses available at a local Community College help me out in my writing, through say, Creative Writing and/or Journalism courses?

2) Should I instead consider a higher college than a Community College?

3) Should I even consider college for myself as I write Fantasy and other forms of Fiction?

4) Finally, what courses would be best for me to search for in the Class Schedules, (My local Community College sends a Class Schedule to every Postal Customer in my area every so often) that would best suit my needs as a writer?

:)

Hi, Sean

It's hard to advise without more background information, but I'll give it a go. Local community colleges provide excellent opportunities for those who want to find out if a college education is something they want to pursue, and they don't cost as much as most four-year institutions. The problem for you in going this route (in the US) is that the first two years of college cover what is called "general education." The required coursework covers a wide variety of instructional areas. The philosophy is sound--one goal of an advanced education is to create well-rounded individuals. NOTE - well-rounded, at first sight, may not jive with one's desire to gain in-depth experience in a specific area, such as creative writing. However, there is no rule that says you have to go the general studies route intially, if you are trying to find out if a college education is what you want. Virtually all US institutions will require those two years of general studies, however.

Here is what I would suggest. In looking at the possibility higher education, do so with a different mindset. Don't go in thinking, will this improve my writing? Do it with the question, will the extra education improve me as a person, and is this important to me? If you can't answer yes and yes to this two-part question, then reconsider. The danger of doing it the other way is this--you could take a couple of creative writing courses and find that they do not significantly advance your skills (at least not overtly). On the other hand, new ideas for a fantasy novel may jump from a physics course blackboard, ideas for a medical thriller may come from a biology course laboratory, the backdrop for an historical romance may be born from a required reading assignment in a history class. And, in all cases, the seed will be based on accruate background information, a must for fiction, as you know.

I'd strongly suggest you give it a try. If you find that it isn't for you, that's still valuable information. Some of our best growth comes from situations in which we say, "I'll never do THAT again." But you'll never know until you try it. Just remember one thing. In college, you are the consumer. If you are not getting your money's worth, you can do something about it. A NOTE ABOUT THAT: With the way students moan about assignments, cut class, avoid professor's office hours, and the like--this is the only situation I know of where people actively try to get less than they paid for. And, believe it or not, it's a source of frustration for professors. So, Sean, if you decide to give it a try, take full advantage of every opportunity associated with it. Knock on doors. Get to know your instructors. Go beyond the course material, if you have time. You'll be surprised at what additional opportunities open up.

Good luck. Neurofizz.

Medievalist

07-05-2005, 07:00 PM

Just remember one thing. In college, you are the consumer. If you are not getting your money's worth, you can do something about it. A NOTE ABOUT THAT: With the way students moan about assignments, cut class, avoid professor's office hours, and the like--this is the only situation I know of where people actively try to get less than they paid for. And, believe it or not, it's a source of frustration for professors. So, Sean, if you decide to give it a try, take full advantage of every opportunity associated with it. Knock on doors. Get to know your instructors. Go beyond the course material, if you have time. You'll be surprised at what additional opportunities open up.

Good luck. Neurofizz.

Neurofizz has just given you Inner Secret to Success in College number 1. It's absolutely true. You get what you put into your education--and part of that is learning how to learn.

SRHowen

07-05-2005, 07:06 PM

The queston was do you have to have a higher ed degree to be a good author. I think arguments can be made on both sides.

BUT it boils down to one thing---

Can you tell/write a story that editors want to buy--that the public wants to read?

If not then you need to consider why that is.

aadams73

07-05-2005, 07:13 PM

My college education--formal university--gave me the ability and confidence to do two things:

--finish what I start.

--pull a piece of work to pieces and edit it when it needs it, without throwing up.

YMMV of course. And FWIW I was a Psych/Bioscience double major so I also learned to write fairly sparingly; I'm not a wordy writer.

tjwriter

07-05-2005, 07:35 PM

Having just finished getting my higher ed degree, this topic feels relevant. I can see both sides from here. Going to college was one of the best things I have ever done. I had a blast. However, I love to learn...about anything. Because I worked to make ends meet, there were many campus activities that I missed and plenty I wished I could have been at. Overall my experience was a good thing. This was a public college so there were plenty of idiots and references to this school being another high school. The College of Business that I graduated from is AACSB accredited (http://www.aacsb.edu/) so I have no issues with the quality of my education. I had several professors who made the difference, and I would love taking any class with them.

On the flip side, I DID work in an all-night diner, on the night shift, and I can tell you that there is no better way to learn about people than to work in a restaurant. In addition to the many intellectual discussions I had there, I had got to see some real "gems". Like the guy that yelled at me because he had to wait a minute for me to get his sauces and then paid with a fifty, which I had to go break. Or any of the various other characters we had.

It all boils down to you as an individual. Some people will learn from the college experience, others won't. My husband is the exact opposite of me. He didn't do well in school simply because it didn't interest him. He's extremely intelligent but books do not suit his learning style. One day he gave the whole thing on how he wasn't good at math, etc. and I calmly pointed out to him that he could go to build something and do all the geometry and calculations involved without a moment of trouble. We both watch people and he can tell you as much about human behavior as I could and is accurate as any psych. book in a classroom.

Sean, I recommend psych. class. I know that a community college may not have it, but human behavior has been the one thing I have found most valuable to my writing and to my relationships. Other than that, something you are interested but have never explored.

debraji

07-05-2005, 09:38 PM

Sean, grab a college course catalog. Look at the class offerings. Do any of them excite you? Do a lot of them excite you? Is your catalog now marked up with circles around the most interesting courses?

If only one or two classes appeal to you, you can take them as a non-matriculating student, audit them, or create an equivalent self-study program. Some classes, like creative writing and art, are readily available outside of colleges as well. But if you get excited about course after course after course, then it's time to enroll.

SeanDSchaffer

07-05-2005, 10:01 PM

I am ever so pleased with all your responses to my questions.

I think the hardest thing for me to handle at a younger age when it came to college, was the idea I had that it was a requirement in life. I don't know why I believed that, because in my mind I knew it was an option. The best thing I've heard so far is that college is my own decision. I think that was the main issue with me and my earlier educational background: Grade, Junior High, and High School, were all compulsory, at least to a point. I rather doubt anybody enjoys being forced to do anything, even if they know it's good for them.

Whereas, on the other hand, college is my choice. I'm very happy with this knowledge.

So my reason to go in the case of a Fantasy writer shouldn't be because it would improve my writing? Rather, I should go because I believe it would improve me as a person. I never thought of it that way before. This is good to know.

Also, I had feared the answer(s) I would get to the Community College question. I was worried people might not consider them a "Real" College. I think that fear dates back to comments made to me by someone I don't even remember the name of, back when I was in High School.

One of my major problems with High School was that in the latter years, I kept falling asleep in class. I simply did not ever get enough sleep at home, and my body could not handle the lack thereof.

A major problem I've had with college is: I had been told by a H.S. teacher that college consisted of sitting in a lecture hall for hours on end listening to a teacher with a monotone voice and taking notes all day. I at one time believed these things, but as I think about them now, that H.S. teacher was the only person who ever said these things to me.

So this begs another couple of questions:

Do college courses have the same basic hours as High School classes do?

Do they last all day, every day of the week?

Finally, what format do most college professors use--in your experience--in which to instruct their classes?

Honestly speaking, I'm just glad to know college is not a requirement in Fantasy Writing, which I've known all along but not deep within my heart. The term 'head-knowledge' would be very appropriate for this situation. I've always known in my mind that college was not a requirement, but deep within, where my real decisions are made, I had a different belief. That belief has frightened me much too long.

Medievalist

07-05-2005, 10:24 PM

Do college courses have the same basic hours as High School classes do?

Yes, and no. There are several basic types of classes, which may or may not be offered at a particular school.

Classroom lecture--one professor, 20 to 70 students; professor lectures to varying degrees--generally it's a mixed batch of lecture/questions to students/questions from students/discussion. Some teachers may break this up in several ways--having students work in small groups, for instance, or assign in class writing, or formal oral presentations, or field trips or watching a video.

Large lecture--hundreds in the class; single professor delivers a lecture, with some but not much interaction from the class, and there are graduate students (usually) TAs who do "discussion sections" of twenty or so people, an hour or hour and a half a week. Usually in these classes the TAs do the grading, but the faculty member has the final word. Both TAs and faculty hold office hours. Sometimes the TAs suck horribly; they're students too, with their own work and problems. Other times the TA makes the class. If you have a class like this you should attend lecture, and discussion, and see the faculty member and the TA in office hours.

Seminars--usually reserved for juniors/seniors, or grad students, sometimes restricted to the majors of the class' subject. These are very small--less than a dozen students, and at some schools, even fewer--and very intense. You have a lot of reading, and the students almost lead the class in that the professor is there as a guide and information source, more than say an examiner or lecturer. These are demanding, but are often the best experiences for the students.

Lab classes--sciences and social sciences, and foreign language classes often have a class schedule, two or three times a week, plus a lab where you actually engage in practical use of the stuff in class.

The Internet changes class room dynamics a lot--lots of distance learning/on line classes, classes that meet in a computer lab (I do a lot of writing instruction in a lab, where students write/revise online, using the technology, etc.)

Finally, what format do most college professors use--in your experience--in which to instruct their classes?

I kinda sort answered this. One of the chief differences between High school and college is that you are paying for the experience; you have a right to pick and choose. Depending on the size of the school, if you don't like Psych 10 with Professor Freud, you can drop her class and take Professor Jung instead. This is very much dependent on local conditions, of course, but it's generally true.

Keep in mind, regarding community colleges, in general faculty are there because they want to teach. They like teaching, and students. Sometimes in large research institutions the faculty really want to do their research and only teach because they have to. This varies in schools, departments, and of course, individuals. Also, in community colleges you're likely to have smaller classes, and no TAs. In general terms, that's an advantage.

icerose

07-05-2005, 10:27 PM

This is an interesting topic that has been debated before by other writers I know.

I was attending college and almost finished my associates and had a full scholarship to a university when surprise surprise my daughter came and I had to quit school. I plan on going back when my kids are old enough to be without Mommy as I promised I would be a stay at home mom.

Lack of education can and does hurt if you do not have a firm grasp on the english language and all the rules. I stumble on this and look forward to further courses that will help me better understand doing what I love most, writing.

I have never ever in my life seen an instance where education has hurt someone or held them back. Everyone I grew up with I can see a clear line divided between them. Those with an education and those without. Those without are scraping for jobs at Walmart, McDonalds, and other such places. Those with an education are either currently going to school or are already well on their way in their careers. They are living better, yes even the poor students, then those who did not go on. Even jobs as students they manage to make more money and live better than those who are not going to college.

If those who have degrees and fail or are scraping by, it means they were going for just a degree and did not look beyond college and plan out their lives. That is their problem and is not to be blamed on their education. I see far more successes in people who attend college than those who don't. There are many business owners in this area (small as it is) making big bucks, but each and everyone of them have at least one Master's degree.

In writing. Experience, education, and your own creative abilities all contribute to your writing. A degree does not make a writer but a writer without an education is not even readable. Even if they can tell a good story if you can't read what they wrote due to excessive errors, poor grammar, and shaky footing on the rules of english they will never succeed no matter how good their plot is. I see it as a wheel, the more well rounded it is, the smoother it will roll. If the writer lacks education their ride will be bumpier and much more uncertain than those who have taken the time to hone their craft and learn.

I highly recommend College or tradeschool for everyone in the world. It will help.

Sean, I really hope you decide to go back, I think you could gain much from the experience. I would suggest starting out at a community college, it would give you breathing room to get back into the beat of school life. You can always transfer up and those basic credits do count toward your higher degree so your time would not be wasted.

I met more interesting people in college than outside of it. It opened up a whole new world of people and believe me you will find plenty of idiots to study in college. So I'm all for the college experience, your time will never be wasted unless you are wasting it. And like others have said it will help you attain a better job and open up a lot more choices than you would have without it.

Goodluck everyone and happy debating.

Sara

NeuroFizz

07-05-2005, 10:39 PM

So this begs another couple of questions:

Do college courses have the same basic hours as High School classes do?

Do they last all day, every day of the week?

Finally, what format do most college professors use--in your experience--in which to instruct their classes?

In most US colleges and universities, a three-credit college course will consist of one hour in class per credit, or three hours of class time per week. This will be broken up as Monday, Wednesday, Friday meetings at, say 9:00a.m. to 10:00a.m. Or, it could be Tuesday/Thursday for 1 1/2 hours per session. If there is a lab section, such as in a 4 credit course, the general rule is 3 hours in lab equals one credit, so add the three-hour lab session to the three lecture hours. The significant advantage of Community Colleges is that they are typically set up accomodate "non-traditional" students. Which means they provide evening and weekend classes. Here, you may have to sit through a three-hour class meeting on a single night or day, but it's great for people with regular jobs, children, etc. Many Community Colleges even provide child care. In this way, Community Colleges are perfect for "part-time" students. They also cater to those who want to take a full load (around 15 credits per semester) and transfer to four-year schools.

The chief difference between a Community College and a research-based University--in the latter you will be taught by individuals who maintain an active research program, and they can give you information that is "up to the minute" in their area of expertise (textbooks are usually one to two years out-of-date by the time they appear). Research-active faculty can also provide research experience (for credit) for those undergraduates who "knock on doors." Non-research, four-year colleges will be in the middle--some of the professors are not research active, or their higher teaching loads will limit the degree of their involvement in research, although I've seen incredibly active people at these institutions. None of this research stuff means that one or the other type of instructor will be more or less dedicated to teaching. It happens both ways, so don't get off on the "research detracts from teaching thing." Research IS teaching, and one feeds off the other. I can address this in a another format if anyone wants to argue.

The format depends on the class. Lecture is the most common form of communication, but more instructors are going to cooperative learning-type activities (great if handled well, but horrible if not). In creative writing classes, many will have significant give-and-take discussions of assignments, unless it is strictly a class on theory. If you want to find out before you enroll, ask the instructor. Meeting her/him ahead of time may put you at ease around her/him. Also, they have counselors. USE THEM.

Sean, go for it. We're all behind you. If you try it and don't like it, it's still a successful enterprise--you've learned something about your future.

Who's with me? Haaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy. Oops. That's Belushi from Animal House.........

NF

reph

07-05-2005, 10:54 PM

In the UK, college is a relative death scentence. But everybody does it...
If the British educational system differs so much from ours in the U.S., I can't advise you. I went to the state university, which didn't cost so much. (It costs more now. The economy has changed, and the state government has less money.) Under the conditions that prevail in this country, staying out of college will more likely lock you into a particular kind of future; going will give you more options.

Should I instead consider a higher college than a Community College?
A community college is fine if your main interest is the course content. It won't provide the university atmosphere that makes a difference if you're looking to become better rounded.

brinkett

07-05-2005, 11:16 PM

Those without are scraping for jobs at Walmart, McDonalds, and other such places.

It doesn't have to be that way. Some people make the conscious choice not to attend college and make very good lives for themselves.

If those who have degrees and fail or are scraping by, it means they were going for just a degree and did not look beyond college and plan out their lives. That is their problem and is not to be blamed on their education.

You must live somewhere where the employment rate is 100% and every degree guarantees you a job. I don't live somewhere like that. But you're right that some people find out they don't like their field, and at that point they either switch gears or sink. However, there are people who got a degree and want to work in their field of study, but can't find a job despite their best effort to do so. So they take something temporary, which turns out to last longer than they expected, their degree is now a few years out of date, there still aren't any jobs, etc. When I've mentioned people I know who went to university but struggle financially, I'm not blaming their university education.

A degree does not make a writer but a writer without an education is not even readable. Even if they can tell a good story if you can't read what they wrote due to excessive errors, poor grammar, and shaky footing on the rules of english they will never succeed no matter how good their plot is.

I learned grammar and the basic rules of English in elementary and high school, not at university. And remember, people can teach themselves. Education comes in many forms; doesn't have to be in a classroom.

pepperlandgirl

07-05-2005, 11:22 PM

Do college courses have the same basic hours as High School classes do?

Do they last all day, every day of the week?

Finally, what format do most college professors use--in your experience--in which to instruct their classes?

It really, really depends on where you go to school. I went to a very small liberal arts college, as opposed to a big state University, and so my experiences will be different in others. That means my classes were tiny--ranging from 10 to 25 at a time. I've never even seen a TA in my life. Sometimes I had courses in the morning, but once I started working towards my degree instead of my GE requirements, I had a class every night from 6:30-9:30. Since my classes were so small and I was in the humanities department, there was a lot of discussion in all the courses and very little lecture, comparitively.

College is not like high school. At all. I don't even thinnk the two can be compared.

There's another point I'd like to add. There's the assumption that anybody with a HS degree is literate and prepared for the world. Sorry, that's just not true here. I tutored 18 year old freshmen for the past 3 years, and they truly were functionally illiterate. Some of them were also creative and expressed interest in poetry and short stories. They were awful. I mean, really bad. Every student I worked with could only benefit from more education. There was no way their skills would improve without it. Some people may want to take an honest look at their work and themselves and ask how their work could be improved and what would be the best way to do that. We say school won't teach you to write...well, some people need to be taught the basics even after they go through HS. Even people who want to be novelists or poets or playwrights to television writers.

brinkett

07-05-2005, 11:45 PM

There's another point I'd like to add. There's the assumption that anybody with a HS degree is literate and prepared for the world.
It depends on the individual. The same is true of university. I have two degrees. I did the second one at a university that requires you to write a literacy test in order to get your degree, precisely because people can and do get through university without knowing how to write. People flunked. No degree.

tjwriter

07-05-2005, 11:54 PM

A major problem I've had with college is: I had been told by a H.S. teacher that college consisted of sitting in a lecture hall for hours on end listening to a teacher with a monotone voice and taking notes all day.

So this begs another couple of questions:

Do college courses have the same basic hours as High School classes do?

Do they last all day, every day of the week?

Finally, what format do most college professors use--in your experience--in which to instruct their classes?

Now, I did have a few courses like your teacher described. They were the most boring thing in existence and I only did okay in those classes through my own hard work. They didn't last all day, just the normal class period. My favorite classes were those where discussion and student input were valued by the professor.

The cool thing about college is that you get to pick your schedule. When you're a freshman, the selection isn't always that great, but you do get some choice. I would normally pick a couple of classes, leave an opening for a break to eat/socialize/study/whatever, and then a couple more classes if I was going full-time.

Our options for class time and duration at my university where:

Monday, Wednesday, and Friday 50 min. from the hour until 10 til the next hour
Monday and Wednesday or Tuesday and Thursday were 1 hr. 15 min.
Night classes were 1 night a week for 2 hrs. 45 min. and almost every class gave you a 10-15 min. break in the middle anyway.
Most professors use a lecture type format, and some include discussion as portion of that. I have found the most boring and unstimulating classes to be the ones where the professor does drone on. Sometimes classes are rather large, but you can still find good ones if the professor is passionate about the subject. The only real way to find out is to ask the other students before you select courses. I have made my schedule around a particular professor before.

Like everything else, college has ups and downs. Some things will excite you and other things will be disappointing. As long as the good outweighs the bad, it will be an enjoyable experience.

icerose

07-06-2005, 12:52 AM

Hi Brinkett,
The problem is there are no jobs (other than lousy ones) around here you can get without a degree as our employment rate sucks. (For the most part you have to move to get a good job at all. Those who don't get an education don't have as many options in jobmarket and tend not to move away to the better jobs.) It hit an all time low of 40% unemployment just last year. In my area if you do not get a degree you do not make it period. I have met many people with high degrees in things like History and such that cannot find a job, what I am saying is they didn't research the jobmarket before hand and keep up with it and that is their failure not the degree's. However they can also go back futher and use those basically useless degrees (jobwise) and use them as a stepping stone for a better degree that will get them a better job.

I completely agree that much of what we write is often self taught and I include self taught and school training as education. I would however suggest going to college to help with those basics if anyone had teachers who just wanted to see you pass a test and didn't really care if you actually learned anything or not.

Just in my experience though people with degrees have a thousand times better chance at making it than those who did not finish highschool, or just finished highschool. No a university isn't going to teach you everything, I feel learning is for life. So regaurdless of whether you go or not, don't stop learning. :)

Sara

It doesn't have to be that way. Some people make the conscious choice not to attend college and make very good lives for themselves.

You must live somewhere where the employment rate is 100% and every degree guarantees you a job. I don't live somewhere like that. But you're right that some people find out they don't like their field, and at that point they either switch gears or sink. However, there are people who got a degree and want to work in their field of study, but can't find a job despite their best effort to do so. So they take something temporary, which turns out to last longer than they expected, their degree is now a few years out of date, there still aren't any jobs, etc. When I've mentioned people I know who went to university but struggle financially, I'm not blaming their university education.

I learned grammar and the basic rules of English in elementary and high school, not at university. And remember, people can teach themselves. Education comes in many forms; doesn't have to be in a classroom.

SeanDSchaffer

07-06-2005, 12:57 AM

Sean, I really hope you decide to go back....

Icerose,

I hope you don't take offense by my words, but aside from a six-week one-on-one with a voice instructor, I never went to college.

So far as my education in the English Language goes, I learned most of what I use in my writing in Elementary through High School. The rest I've learned from reading other writers' works.

Nevertheless, I know what you're saying, and I'm a lot more encouraged by what I've been hearing--from yourself and others on this thread--concerning the possibilities.

My problem is that I heard a large number of 'horror stories' about college in the past. I believe the Star Wars character Yoda stated it best when he said, "You must unlearn what you have learned." (Taken from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.)

I know I must unlearn what I have already learned. From what I've read on this particular thread, most of what I believe about college is myth. If I do decide to go to a college, I most likely will go to a local Community College, partially for cost (I'm low income) and partially because the one I'm thinking of, is very close to where I live. I know the buses that can take me there, and have a good working knowledge of when they run.

I am still uncertain of whether or not I will go. But now, at least, the rumors I've been told have been dispelled by people who have been there, and I have a much more positive view of something I had at one time villainized.

I do want to broaden my horizons. I know two things, basically, very well: Dragons, and Railroads. With the knowledge I have of either one, I could myself probably teach a course on them.

But despite the fact I know those things as well as I do, the fact remains these two subjects are only two subjects. I want to get a better working knowledge of other things so I will not be limited to Dragons and Trains with future works. As a Fantasy writer, I can make up anything I want, but there is with me, the innate desire to write about things that people see every day, or at least have a working knowledge of.

People have a working knowledge of Dragons, and they have a working knowledge of Trains....but they also have a working knowledge of Airplanes, Rockets, Woodworking, Ships, Computers, Home Audio, etc., etc., etc. The issue is, I don't believe my knowledge of these everyday subjects is to the point that I can tell a good story with these things in them, because I want to write not about "Such-and-such turned on the radio, and got 92.3 FM." I want to write about the radio repairman and the processes he uses to repair the radio so it will work at all.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the long post. My point is, I want to broaden my horizons beyond what I already know. This is one of the reasons I am considering attending a local college, and one of the reasons I've been asking these questions. I appreciate highly every single one of your answers, and I hope anyone else who reads this thread, who might be in my position, might through reading it be able to make a more informed decision. This is some very good information, and in my humble opinion, a worthy read.

reph

07-06-2005, 01:04 AM

Sometimes classes are rather large, but you can still find good ones if the professor is passionate about the subject. The only real way to find out is to ask the other students before you select courses.
That's difficult if you live off campus and don't know other students. It's also difficult at a large university where you don't know enough other students. To compensate, student organizations at some campuses collect ratings from students and publish the results. At least, they did when I was a student, mumble-mumble-inaudible years ago.

BenMears

07-06-2005, 01:11 AM

If you want to read an entertaining dissertation on the subject (and when we're not writing, we should be reading, after all), pick up "The Education of a Wandering Man" by Louis L'Amour. Mr. L'Amour was a very educated man, but little of it happened within four walls. And incidentally, he was very successful at getting his work published.

Best wishes.

brinkett

07-06-2005, 03:50 AM

It hit an all time low of 40% unemployment just last year.

Yikes!

In my area if you do not get a degree you do not make it period. I have met many people with high degrees in things like History and such that cannot find a job, what I am saying is they didn't research the jobmarket before hand and keep up with it and that is their failure not the degree's.

Right. My original point was that a degree doesn't guarantee that you'll do better than someone without a degree, for whatever reason. I am not assigning blame to the degree, the person, or the stars. Someone with a history degree in your area of the woods might be much worse off than someone with a high school diploma in an area with more opportunities. A degree isn't a guarantee of success. It isn't a given that everyone, no matter who they are, what their goals are, and what their circumstances are, will do better if they go to university. For some people, it's a great choice; for others, it would be a disaster. That's all I'm sayin'.

As far as the people in your area who have "lousy" degrees go, it could have been lack of planning, blind hope, a passion for the area they studied, or none of the above. Life is unpredictable. Plans can be rudely derailed at any time.

loquax

07-06-2005, 04:03 AM

I'll summarize the main points here:

1) You do not need a degree to get published.
2) Therefore if you wish to be a full time writer, college will only help you gain experience.
3) Not going to college will also give you experience, but of a different kind.

So the main question is 'which experience is better?' Seeing as you can only do one, every single opinion will be biased, so I really don't think there is any way of resolving it. You either go or you don't.

icerose

07-06-2005, 04:50 AM

Icerose,

I hope you don't take offense by my words, but aside from a six-week one-on-one with a voice instructor, I never went to college.

So far as my education in the English Language goes, I learned most of what I use in my writing in Elementary through High School. The rest I've learned from reading other writers' works.

Sean,
I speak in too broad of ideas and understandings when I write my posts, I need to work on that. What I meant by go back was go back to school. As you did attend highschool, you would be going back to school. I read and understood that you never attended College. I will work on that. I do understand the income thing. It is hard. You might want to consider visiting your local vocational rehab or try and get on a government grant to help cover the costs. (in Utah it is called Pell Grant the school should have an application form for it.) Good luck whatever you choose and I hope it does help you broaden your horizons.

Right. My original point was that a degree doesn't guarantee that you'll do better than someone without a degree, for whatever reason. I am not assigning blame to the degree, the person, or the stars. Someone with a history degree in your area of the woods might be much worse off than someone with a high school diploma in an area with more opportunities. A degree isn't a guarantee of success. It isn't a given that everyone, no matter who they are, what their goals are, and what their circumstances are, will do better if they go to university. For some people, it's a great choice; for others, it would be a disaster. That's all I'm sayin'.

As far as the people in your area who have "lousy" degrees go, it could have been lack of planning, blind hope, a passion for the area they studied, or none of the above. Life is unpredictable. Plans can be rudely derailed at any time.

I do agree with you on that. Nothing ever guarantees anything. A contract even with a big publisher doesn't guarantee you become a best seller. The same is a degree does not equal success and I understand that you aren't assigning blame to the degree. In my personal experience I have never seen a degree turn out to be a disaster ever. I have seen people who cannot use their degrees directly but they do not regret getting them either.

I am glad you are in an area where they have a chance at a good life with just a diploma, but the vast majority of the US is not that way. That is my point. The vast majority of people will be better of with at least some college education is all I'm saying.

:)

Sara

reph

07-06-2005, 05:14 AM

So the main question is 'which experience is better?' Seeing as you can only do one, every single opinion will be biased, so I really don't think there is any way of resolving it. You either go or you don't.
That isn't the pair of choices you have, at least in the U.S., the only place I'm familiar with. You go or you don't during a stretch of four years. The four years can start at any time in your life. Even the four-year period is only one possible pattern.

Deciding not to go to college right after high school doesn't mean deciding to stay out of college forever. (Look at Sean. He's thinking of resuming his schooling after a long time out. Many adults do that here.) Deciding to start college doesn't mean committing to four years, either. One can try college and leave if it doesn't suit.

Some students delay college entrance to earn money or to get nonacademic experience. Some take time off between academic years for the same reasons. Some attend for a while and leave when they find a job they like better than college.

The decision isn't so black and white as all that.

Medievalist

07-06-2005, 06:17 AM

That isn't the pair of choices you have, at least in the U.S., the only place I'm familiar with. You go or you don't during a stretch of four years. The four years can start at any time in your life. Even the four-year period is only one possible pattern.

Absolutely--and you can attend, and take classes, for credit, without being enrolled as a student in a degree program. Extension programs

often offer classes designed to meet the schedules of working folk; increasingly, they offer online classes as well. Quite often the classes are taught by the same faculty as the "regular classes." The downside of Extension classes is that they tend to be pretty expensive.

Community college programs often offer similar advantages in terms of scheduling as Extension classes, but at far less in terms of fees.

It's a good idea to find out about transfer credit before you take a class--and to do it in a somewhat formal way. You may decide you'll learn so much you don't care if the class doesn't "count" towards a formal degree, but it's good to know before you've done the work.

SeanDSchaffer

07-06-2005, 07:34 AM

I do want to broaden my horizons. I know two things, basically, very well: Dragons, and Railroads. With the knowledge I have of either one, I could myself probably teach a course on them.

But despite the fact I know those things as well as I do, the fact remains these two subjects are only two subjects. I want to get a better working knowledge of other things so I will not be limited to Dragons and Trains with future works. As a Fantasy writer, I can make up anything I want, but there is with me, the innate desire to write about things that people see every day, or at least have a working knowledge of.

People have a working knowledge of Dragons, and they have a working knowledge of Trains....but they also have a working knowledge of Airplanes, Rockets, Woodworking, Ships, Computers, Home Audio, etc., etc., etc. The issue is, I don't believe my knowledge of these everyday subjects is to the point that I can tell a good story with these things in them, because I want to write not about "Such-and-such turned on the radio, and got 92.3 FM." I want to write about the radio repairman and the processes he uses to repair the radio so it will work at all.

My Emphasis

Now that I think about it, those other subjects I listed are all things I have a working knowledge of. I feel like such a ditz!

Also, a thought crossed my mind earlier but I wasn't able to post it because I couldn't access the site for some time--probably the servers were overloaded: a lot of members were posting at that particular time.

The thought is: if all I want to know is the technical issues of certain subjects, couldn't I just go to the local library and read up on it? In all my years of writing, I never thought the word 'research' applied to a Fantasy writer, but I see I may have been quite mistaken.

Not that I still won't go to a Community College in the near future, but I think the things I mentioned would not be a good reason to go in and of themselves. If I really do want to go to College--and I'm still thinking seriously about it--what aside from the stuff I can read in the local library would be a good reason for me to go?

I qualify my question by saying I spent seven months and $8,000.00 that I didn't have to go to a school to learn computers. Every single thing I learned in that school I could have learned on my own using the manual that came with my computer. Or I learned things I learned in High School. I do not want to make such a mistake again.

:Shrug:

reph

07-06-2005, 09:07 AM

Now that I think about it, those other subjects I listed are all things I have a working knowledge of.
Knowledge of most of the subjects you mentioned would come from a trade school, not from a university. Yes, you can teach yourself those things pretty well using the library. One goes to an academic college or university to learn other subjects, like biology, art, music, physics, psychology, anthropology, languages, literature, sociology, history, philosophy. Then there are the less easily specified benefits to one's mind – becoming more urbane, learning more about how to think and how to spot good and bad reasoning, and so forth.

Tish Davidson

07-06-2005, 09:10 AM

Now I have thought about possibly taking some courses. Having listened objectively to you, my colleagues and friends, explaining some of the values of college courses and their impact on one's writing life, I see college in a much more friendly light than I did those many years before.

I therefore have several questions to ask of you:

1) Would the courses available at a local Community College help me out in my writing, through say, Creative Writing and/or Journalism courses?

2) Should I instead consider a higher college than a Community College?

3) Should I even consider college for myself as I write Fantasy and other forms of Fiction?

4) Finally, what courses would be best for me to search for in the Class Schedules, (My local Community College sends a Class Schedule to every Postal Customer in my area every so often) that would best suit my needs as a writer?

:)

It is hard to give advice without knowing much about your circumstances. Will you be working while taking classes? Will your family support you going away to college? However, here are my thoughts:

You will have a very different experience if you live at school or if you are a commuter. If you are a commuting day student, you should try to join some student organizations like writing for the newspaper or being on the literary magazine staff or joining a political organization so that your experience will not be limited to just classes.

I think community college would be a good place to start and try to see if you like college. However there is a lot of variety among ccs. Some are really good and some are like grades 13 and 14 of high school, which is not what you want. That said, I still think it is a reasonable place to start, because it is less expensive, and if you work, it is easier to fit classes in to your work schedule, as they often have evening and early morning sessions as well as during the normal school day.

What should you take? If you want to write, try a creative writing class. However, before you sign up, I would e-mail the instructor if you can and tell him/her you are interested in fantasy and ask what kinds of writing you will do and what kinds of skills you can expect to learn. If there are a couple of sections with different instructors, e-mail each and consider the answers. Often the class content in something like creative writing varies from section to section based to some extent on the interests of the instructor. Remember, that unlike high school you are the consumer here, and it is fine to ask these questions. You are paying for the class and have every right to know what you are getting up front.

If your English mechanics skills are not top notch, I would take a basic English composition/writing class or a grammar review. Boring, maybe, but if you go on to get an AA or transfer to a 4 year school, it is almost a given that you will need an English comp class to meet the degree requirements.

Finally, I would take a class that is completely different from anything you took in high school, but that you think sounds interesting - Medieval history, art appreciation, anthropology, cosmology - whatever appeals to you. The reasons - it will let you explore something new that hasn't been ruined for you by poor high school teaching. It may help direct you to an area you would like to study - or at least eliminate an area (You certainly don't have to get a degree in English to be a publisher writer. Mine are in biology), and finally, you might learn some cool stuff you could incorporate in your fantasy writing.

After you take a couple of CC classes, you can decide if
1) college is not for you
2) you want to keep going to CC get an AA degree
3) you want to transfer to a 4 year university
4) you want to take a class here and there that interest you, but not do the requirements for a degree program.

Whatever you decide, you should not let someone else like the psychologist you mentioned control your decision. No one knows you better than you.

Tish Davidson

07-06-2005, 09:27 AM

Do college courses have the same basic hours as High School classes do?

Do they last all day, every day of the week?

Finally, what format do most college professors use--in your experience--in which to instruct their classes?

.

Most college classes meet 3 times a week for 50 minutes or twice a week for 80 minutes, with language and science labs taking extra time. In general the rule of thumb is that you spend 2 to 3 hours on assignments outside class for every hour you spend inside the classroom. This includes "homework" like reading textbooks and supplemental materials, researching and writing papers, doing problem sets, working on writing assignments for class - stuff like than. Of course the amount of time varies hugely with the difficulty of the course, the student's ability and the desired outcome either in terms of grades or learning.

Most college classes are lectures, especially in the larger, basic classes, but it varies. The only English class I ever took was as a freshman, and it had about 15 people and was teacher directed discussion. I also had a small calculus class that was strictly lecture and demonstration of how to do certain types of problems with no student input at all - so it depends a lot. Most science classes, and some large lectures have meet in smaller sections once a week (generally they are called something like quiz sections or discussion sections). These (at 4 year universities) are usually under the direction of a graduate student and are meant to give you a chance to ask questions about things that confuse you. Also, colleges usually have some sort of tutoring center when you can get help if you find you are getting lost.

A normal semester load is about 15 credits which translates into four 3-hour a week classes plus one class with a 3 hours of lecture and a lab section. Usually anything between 12 and 18 credits per semester is considered normal full time enrollment. One difference between college and high school is that you are expected to do more substantial work on your own outside class.

I suggest that if there are any colleges near you, you see if you can sit in on a couple of classes to see what they are like. Call the admissions office and ask if you can go to a creative writing class, etc. Or just show up at the right place and time and tell the professor you are considering enrolling and ask if you can sit quietly in the class and listen to see if it is right for you.

Tish Davidson

07-06-2005, 09:44 AM

SeanDSchaffer

07-06-2005, 09:59 AM

If cost of college is an issue, you should contact the school's financial aid office. Every college has one, even community colleges. They will help you figure out if you qualify for a grant (doesn't have to be paid back) or a deferred loan (pay back starts after you graduate) or a regular loan (pay back starts before graduation) and they can direct you to any scholarships that you might apply for. They can tell you where to get information and help you with the paperwork. One thing, though. I don't know how old you are, but if you are 23 or younger and living at home, financial aid applications will consider your parents' income as well as yours in assessing need.

That was one of my major issues actually. I'm low income, but also I'm 33 and on my own. If I qualify for a loan or a grant, I think I would be much less intimidated by the cost and overall proposition of higher education.

You mentioned in a previous post something about differences in College and High School. Others have mentioned it too. I think I'm beginning to open up to the idea of higher education more because of the major differences between College and High School.

In High School, I was required to be there all day, five days a week, like working a full-time job. If College gives me more freedom to choose what hours are best for me, I can see myself learning much more there than I did in H.S.

In High School, I was required to take classes I had absolutely no interest in. But you and others have pointed out that I can take classes that I wish to take without necessarily belonging to a degree program. I like this much more now than I did only a few days ago.

These differences, IMO, could be quite beneficial to me as a student, in and of themselves. The reason is that my view of school and the school life would be altered dramatically. I like this idea very much.

If only for the sake of a better attitude toward life and education, I am just about to the point where I'm willing to go. I already feel better about myself knowing if I do go, I won't be forced to go through the hellish nightmare that was my High School years. Being forced to live a certain lifestyle was my biggest worry.

Well, that and the economic side of things.

AnnaT

07-06-2005, 10:12 AM

In High School, I was required to take classes I had absolutely no interest in. But you and others have pointed out that I can take classes that I wish to take without necessarily belonging to a degree program. I like this much more now than I did only a few days ago.

Just a little note: You must be admitted to a degree program in order to receive financial aid. Universities have different categories of students, and some are there just to take some courses, but financial aid will not pay for this.

In order to complicate things, you don't have to actually complete a degree or even declare a major, but to get federal/state grant and loan money you have to 1) be admitted as a degree-seeking student and 2) make satisfactory progress each semester (usually a C average).

pepperlandgirl

07-06-2005, 10:21 AM

It's possible to have all or most of your education paid for if you're low income. My university is about (started lower, goes up $500/year) 23,000/year tuition. Pretty steep, huh? I walked away with about $24,000 of debt, total for all four years, and that included loans I took out to live off of and a loan I took to travel to Italy. The rest was covered by grants and scholarships--according to student accounts, I have a $99,500 education, but I didn't pay that much! (mainly because our average annual income was less than tuition, I'm thinking). My point is, college doesn't have to be cost prohibitive. I essentially got 3 years of my education for free.

Euan H.

07-06-2005, 10:24 AM

Good luck to you, Sean. I think you're doing the right thing.

But then again, I work in a university, so I have a vested interest in this...:Lecture:

NeuroFizz

07-06-2005, 05:24 PM

If I really do want to go to College--and I'm still thinking seriously about it--what aside from the stuff I can read in the local library would be a good reason for me to go?:Shrug:

Sean,

Think of it as an adventure--in self discovery. From experience we all know that some of our adventures turn out to be wonderful, even life altering. Others turn out to be horrible. Most are in between. We can go through life doing nothing out of the ordinary, but think of how that would play out for a character in one of our stories. It wouldn't be much of a story. How do you want your personal story to read? Just like in fiction, in setting examples for others (family, friends), or in just projecting our true selves, show is more important than tell. You can show a lot about yourself by the kind of adventures you choose. This doesn't apply only to college folks, so put away the spears. But, going back to college in your situation says only positive things about you as a person, even if it doesn't work out for you.

If you do go, be prepared to work, though. This is an adventure that requires significant effort or the outcome will surely be negative. You seem to be the type of person who doesn't shy away from effort-requiring activities, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Again, good luck with your decison. We'll be anxious to hear how it goes, one way or the other.

SeanDSchaffer

07-06-2005, 09:13 PM

But then again, I work in a university, so I have a vested interest in this...:Lecture:

On a side note: I had a job in two universities: Portland State University, and Oregon Health Sciences University. Each one at different points in time.

However, I rather doubt you were referring to a Janitorial position when you said you work in one.:Smack: That was my position in both places.

Honestly speaking, though, I think it would be kind of cool to work in a University doing something other than Janitorial work. I was never fond of that particular trade. Being treated like the dirt I swept off the floor was not exactly enjoyable.

Especially for an aspiring writer.

--------------------------------

[Edited to Add:

Would there be a class in a Community College, by chance, that could teach me how to make myself more confident overall? I have been writing for a couple decades now, but I have never had the confidence to send a manuscript to a publisher, get rejected, and immediately send the same manuscript to another publisher. I usually have to get up enough gumption to do so, and that can take weeks.

As I read these boards--especially the 'Writing Novels' forum--I've learned that the time it takes me to build up the courage to send the same manuscript to a different publisher is time wasted in my writing business. I have what some might call an 'inferiority complex,' and want everything to be perfect. If one remark is made to the effect that my manuscript has a particular problem, I dread sending it elsewhere because I'm afraid I'll get exactly the same response no matter where I go.

So again: is there a class in a Community College that can teach me the self-discipline and self-confidence I need to send exactly the same manuscript to another publisher, that the previous publisher rejected?

This would definitely be a benefit to my career.]

Medievalist

07-06-2005, 09:23 PM

SeanDSchaffer

07-06-2005, 09:34 PM

Working as a janitor at many schools will give you access to free or discounted fees. Where I got my B.A. any employee who was a full time employee for six months or longer (or said employee's child), was entitled to a discount for half the in-state tuition. My B.A. and first M.A. were incredible bargains for that reason.

This simply blows me away.

But there is one major problem that I can see with this in my particular case:

I worked as a Janitor at said sites, but for an independent janitorial contractor (Portland Habilitation Center, or more commonly known as PHC). I'm not sure, but I think I may still be a member of the union I worked for at the time (AFL-CIO)

(On another side note: I believe PHC recently lost the PSU site to another contractor. I post this for the benefit of any who would wish to find out if PHC were indeed a contractor at Portland State University.)

But the point I'm making is, I wasn't an employee of either University; I was an employee, rather, of an independent janitorial contractor who at the time cleaned both sites.

So in my case I'm not sure the quoted scenario would in fact apply.

But then again, I don't know. This, on my part, is only speculation.

BenMears

07-06-2005, 10:31 PM

I don't know if anyone has figured out a way to put this in a college course. A lot of college courses I had tended toward the opposite (inculcating respect for the institution, elitism, rather than self-reliance).

I do think it is possible to learn to be self-confident, though, no classroom required. Here is how I have gone about it:
--think of something you want to do
--get scared because you haven't done it before
--decide to do it anyway
--fall on your face and get terribly embarassed
--get over it
--decide to do it again

Keep repeating as necessary. Each time will get easier. Eventually you won't be able to remember what was scary about it in the first place.

reph

07-06-2005, 10:38 PM

So again: is there a class in a Community College that can teach me the self-discipline and self-confidence I need to send exactly the same manuscript to another publisher, that the previous publisher rejected?
Not that I know of. Professional therapy is a better bet for that kind of thing.

When you know what you have to do but you don't feel like it, Nike's slogan about exercise fits: "Just do it." Enlisting a buddy might help – someone to remind you, at bad moments, to get back on the horse. People do that with exercise, too.

ANNIE

07-06-2005, 10:49 PM

even though I never used the degree I recieved from college, it was a life altering experience for me. i grew as a person in ways I never thought were possible. I not sure the courses taught me half as much as the inrerpersonal relationships did. It also taught self discipline and the abilty to follow through- both qualities you need to write.

Tirjasdyn

07-06-2005, 10:50 PM

Now this caught my eye. It's the same in the US. However:

Who says that all you have to do is study writing to be a writer.

I used my 7 years at college to study religion, folklore, literarture, mythology, science and what not. The information I took away has been invaluable in writing fantasy. I had access to research I normally would never have known about. In that time I took 4 writing classes. Only because I had to.

My advice...don't like it, transfer. I did that too. As for the 6k debt...wow I wish, I only paid for two years of college with loans (worked for 4 years just to save up enough to pay for 5 years of college) and that was 20,000k.

If you don't go to college, the chances are you'll travel a bit, get a few jobs here and there, picking grapes in France, mopping floors in a pub back home, etc. Sure you're not learning about astrophysics. Sure you're not getting drunk and having toga parties (and I understand that this is intergral to the well-rounding of a person). But to me as a writer, the things you learn outstrip the things learnt in college tenfold. If I wanted to be a scientist - fine. I'd go to college, get the degree, get the job. But it's not for the creative mind - as said before - a diploma doesn't matter if you want to be published. Getting one won't hurt you, but there are so many other things you could be doing that it seems a waste.

SeanDSchaffer

07-07-2005, 12:03 AM

Thinking about all this stuff makes my head spin right now. Although I have a better, more positive view of the college life than I did a few days ago, I think I may sit back and wait awhile longer before making my final decision.

Even if I decide not to go, it's comforting to know I could eventually change my decision at a later point in time.

The truth be told, I think everything I want to learn about right now, I could learn to my satisfaction in the local library. And I see where both BenMears and Reph are coming from with my fears. I know in my heart the best way to handle my fears is to face them. In the case of sending my manuscript to another company if rejected, that is indeed something that will only come with practice. My real dilemma is forcing myself to take the next step.

What I'm trying to say is, at least for the time being I will probably not attend the local Community College. I'll try the other ideas for researching subjects first; if they don't work, then at least I'll still have the College option to think about.

All in all, this thread has been very informative to me and a help in my making my decision. The nice thing is, this is a decision that need not be made right at this moment. With High School, I really did not have a choice; I'm glad that for once in my life, I now do have a choice whether or not I attend classes. For that reason, I feel much more confident than I did before, that my decision--whichever it be--will be the right one for me at this present time.

I appreciate every one of you. Thank you kindly for helping me with this.

Tish Davidson

07-07-2005, 12:05 AM

Sean,

College definitely allows you to try before you buy. I can't think of any school (I've been through college selection myself, and in the past 5 years with 2 kids) that will not let you sit in on a couple of classes and see what they are like before you sign up. I strongly suggest you do this. Going back to school at 33 is a big decision, and to make the best decision for you, you need as much information as you can get about what you are getting into. So do talk to colleges and their financial aid offices (if you are low income, you may qualify for a Pell Grant that does not have to be repaid). I think you will find that they are eager to help you. Some colleges have special programs and scholarships for adult students (people who have been out of high school 5 or more years). A lot of community colleges also have an a 1 credit orientation class that helps you get the most out of school, gives you guidance in how to get back into the groove of studying teaches you about the resources available to you through the school (you may qualify for free counesling through the school health department to work on the confidence issues). At this point, I think you need to start gathering information about specific colleges and what they can offer you. Don't forget - you are the consumer here, and community colleges especially are usually eager to meet your needs.

reph

07-07-2005, 12:45 AM

Sean, another idea about submitting a ms. after it comes back. When you get the ms. in the mail to a publisher, make preparing for another mail-out your next task. Write the cover letter to the next publisher on your list. Set it aside. Figure the postage. Do whatever else you can do in advance. When the previous publisher returns the ms., as it probably will because the odds of acceptance by any one publisher at a given time are small, your mood will drop, but the remaining chores in the next submission will be mechanical ones like adding a date to the letter and assembling the package. Those can be done without feeling good. Doing them immediately, instead of waiting for cheer to return, will keep the ms. traveling.

SeanDSchaffer

07-07-2005, 12:51 AM

GPatten

07-07-2005, 12:52 AM

May I jump in here?

Wow!

What a topic. How did I fail to notice this thread?
Education and writing?---
Do you need a college degree?---

Sigh!
I would say yes however, I would also disagree to an existent.
For instance:

Arrowqueen states
“If you've got the basic tools of your trade - decent grammar, spelling, etc - and can tell a good story, it doesn't matter what academic qualifications you have.”

Right on young lady. I’d give that statement a definite thumbs up.

Having attained a high school diploma while dreaming and a fifth grade level of smarts, diplomas from the back streets of Detroit and an education I’ve obtained from the bars and brothels from around the world while in the Navy, along with 40 some years working the big leagues on the edge of technology at the John F Kennedy Space Center; I’ve reached a point in my life writing about things as they exist, as they may have happened, and haven’t happened. I find it quite difficult to write using proper grammar when others who have a better education find it easy.
Wow! That’s a run-on sentence if I may say.

It’s my belief you should have as much of an education as you can attain. As the boys on the streets would say, “Get it on babe! Say what you mean. Don’t stutter. Ya wana hook an agent and a publisher...then do the literary trip. Ya wana sell me a book; sell me one I can read. I don’t want to look up your words in a damn dictionary. I want to chill out reading a story like ol granpow used to tell me on the back porch.”

I think it is a heck of a balancing act to write literary fiction, or writing a storybook of fiction. Which one will sell? I think a little of both is better. Mix them together. Give em a chance to work at it a little bit and dumb it down some to give em a chance turn the page as though they were made out of banana peels.

James D. Macdonald
You wouldn't believe the number of MFAs who couldn't write a commercial story to save their lives.

Read. Write. If you're weak in some area improve that area.

Your story stands on its own. When you pick up a novel you don't check whether the author has a degree in writing before you pull it off the shelf, do you? Neither do other readers.

Now where is that damn thumbs up emotacom?

Everyone of you on this topic have contributed something of great value to me on this subject.

Thank you.

<<Edit>> Cant spell worth a darn.

NeuroFizz

07-07-2005, 01:30 AM

[QUOTE=SeanDSchaffer]What I'm trying to say is, at least for the time being I will probably not attend the local Community College. I'll try the other ideas for researching subjects first; if they don't work, then at least I'll still have the College option to think about.

All in all, this thread has been very informative to me and a help in my making my decision. The nice thing is, this is a decision that need not be made right at this moment.QUOTE]

Sean,

Your decision is sound. You've already made a much more important decision--to embrace a philosophy of lifelong learning, reflected in your continued desire to write, and to improve your writing. Lifelong learning need not have anything to do with college, although higher education can be an important part of it. And, you are right. There is always time to go in that direction if you ever change your mind. I've had senior citizens (70+ years by my definition) in my classes who searched out and audited specific classes, to learn the latest, to keep mentally sharp, and just to be around, listen to, and talk to young people.

Now, let's see some of that writing.

Cheers, Rich

SeanDSchaffer

07-07-2005, 02:25 AM

Sean,

Your decision is sound. You've already made a much more important decision--to embrace a philosophy of lifelong learning, reflected in your continued desire to write, and to improve your writing. Lifelong learning need not have anything to do with college, although higher education can be an important part of it. And, you are right. There is always time to go in that direction if you ever change your mind. I've had senior citizens (70+ years by my definition) in my classes who searched out and audited specific classes, to learn the latest, to keep mentally sharp, and just to be around, listen to, and talk to young people.

Now, let's see some of that writing.

Cheers, Rich

Thank you for the positive input on my decision.

I think you're right also in that I should get back to work. I haven't written in the last day or so, and though I've attempted BIC, I've never actually gotten it right. So I think I'll set aside an hour or two every day just to do BIC. I think that's a major start right there.

But I did write a form query letter earlier, just to see what one would look like. Methinks it may work in the future. So at least I've been doing some writing.

Once I get into the mechanics of writing again, (As I was when I was a child) it should come back to me like riding a bicycle. The problem with me is, to ride a bicycle again, I usually need to fall down a couple of times to get my bearings on it, before I get it right. It'll be hard, but I look forward to the challenge.