Muck, mess and bylaws.

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
I will be participating in a writer's conference discussion/debate quite soon.

The topic is whether this recent trend in historical novels for an emphasis on filthy streets/houses/clothes, lice, fleas and chigs (bed bugs) everywhere, constant sex with whores or other men's wives, the pox, flux or plague, and scenes of drinking and vomiting is really more a sign of contempt and that old notion that we now are cleverer and better than 'they' were. A case of modern arrogance and conceit.

I wonder if those of you who write and research, particularly in areas outside mine, have come across city/town/village/county/whatever locality bylaws/rules regulations dealing with clean and unadulterated food and drink, about not chucking the chamber pot contents into the street, letting pigs loose in the street etc. I have some from the city of York but would be grateful for references from other places/countries.

Also if anyone has come across references to people who collected shit, muck, sewage, ash, bones, dead carcasses etc and their payments for the stuff I would dearly love to know.
 

JamieFord

giving resonant directions
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
1,125
Reaction score
275
Location
On Cloud 9
Website
www.jamieford.com
I've been researching a story set in Japan post WWII. A journal kept by an American man during the occupation talks about nightsoil being used as fertilizer. It appears to be fairly common, but rather shocking to the person writing about it.
 

MaryMumsy

the original blond bombshell
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
3,396
Reaction score
830
Location
Scottsdale, Arizona
I lived on a US Army base in Seoul South Korea from Aug 1963 to Aug 1965. At the time Seoul was a city of about 3 million. The night soil was collected in the city each morning and carried to the outskirts of town to the farms, and used for fertilizer. The collectors used what were called 'honey buckets'. That was a wooden brace that went across the shoulders and had a wooden bucket hanging on either end. On the base we had normal US sanitation. When I stepped off the plane in late Aug, the aroma was overwhelming. Amazingly, you got used to it and didn't notice after a while.

In June 1972 I was in Venice. I'm not sure what was in those containers being emptied out the windows onto the streets below, but made sure I wasn't under any. Could have been dish water, could have been chamber pots. Whatever it was, there was evidently no prohibition to to just dumping it out the window.

MM
 
Last edited:

Sirius

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
340
Reaction score
82
I'm fairly familiar with the issues in Manchester because I'm planning my third book in the linked series to be around issues of public health, so I've been working on the background research.

I found an extremely helpful (if a bit stodgy) biography of James Kay Shuttleworth who was an early pioneer in the field of public health in the early 19th century, being much affected by a typhoid epidemic in the 1830s. that put me on to a number of primary sources about the legislative frameworks for clearing "nuisances" (given that at this time Manchester was given to allowing people to have slaughterhouses in cellars I believe the term "nuisance" is something of a euphemism).

The reason for the wide variety between towns and cities depended on the political framework; city and town councils in our modern sense tended to develop in the 1830s but even large cities like Manchester were still shackled by feudal remnants into the mid to late 19th century - the city council had to buy out the manorial rights of the Mosley family for a staggering £300K so they could do simple things like regulate street markets, for example. As a result, the pace of change across the country was very variable, depending on where there were entrenched forces against change.

Here's a link to the Chester Improvement Act of 1884: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/localact1884a: unfortunately the online coverage of archaic UK local acts of parliament is very patchy

The movement to improve food from adulteration was also strong in Manchester - one of the drivers behind the Rochdale Pioneers (who founded the co-operative society in 1844) was a drive towards unadulterated food for working people, but it was a long hard struggle. I don't know if you can get hold of Accum's work on the topic (1820):http://www.lib.uwaterloo.ca/seagrams/cookery/sea10.html (perhaps Project Gutenberg or one of the Californian collections of etexts?)

The people I've studied have been MacDougall and Crace-Calvert (working on stuff with carbolic acid for "disinfectant" purposes) I've also put in a lot of study of Snow's paper on the transmission of cholera and the reaction to it, so as to get a feel for how the miasma theorists and the infection theorists divided on the matter.
 

Steam&Ink

sekrit superhero
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
1,504
Reaction score
361
Location
Bottom-right hand side of the map. Tucked away dow
Website
steamandink.blogspot.com
I watched a marvellous documentary on the Prime channel last year (You'll know the channel I mean since you're also here in NZ, pdr). It was about the London Sewers and the reforms after the 1858 "Great Stink". In particular it focussed on the engineering work of Joseph Bazalgette, but also scientists of the time who argued back and forth about whether cholera was caused by a miasma or contaminated water sources.

It was really interesting, because it brought home the brilliance and lateral thinking of these people who were trailblazers in health and hygiene (well, in the English-speaking world, at least). If I can recall the name, I will let you know.
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
Wonderful!

Great stuff, thank you one and all.

Does anyone have anything earlier? I've Mediaeval York laws about no pigs, and no piss pot emptying, but would love some more.
 

waylander

Who's going for a beer?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
9,768
Reaction score
2,432
Age
67
Location
London, UK
Was it not the case the piss was collected for the tanners and fullers?
I seem to remember that 'piss collector' was one of the jobs featured in Tony Robinson's 'Worst Jobs in History' TV series.
Google 'Pure Collector'
 
Last edited:

RichardB

THIS! IS!! VENNNNNICE!!!!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
474
Reaction score
121
Location
Albany, NY
Website
www.saintmarksbody.com
I wonder if those of you who write and research, particularly in areas outside mine, have come across city/town/village/county/whatever locality bylaws/rules regulations dealing with clean and unadulterated food and drink, about not chucking the chamber pot contents into the street, letting pigs loose in the street etc. I have some from the city of York but would be grateful for references from other places/countries.

This is an easy one, pdr, but it's well known that Jewish and Muslim communities have been defined by their laws about clean food and drink, avoidance of filth, and "not letting pigs loose in the street" for all recorded history since about midway through the book of Genesis.

Otherwise that's a very interesting question and a good "trope check" for the beginning historical novelist.
 

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,540
Location
Central Ohio
Little much here - but maybe some of it will help. Doesn't look like the pictures copies over (and I'm not a techie to figure out how to do it) This is a direct copy over from a Google search result for United States sanitation history.

Minimal sanitary regulations were common in the American colonies by the late 1600s. For instance, in 1634, Boston officials prohibited disposing of fish and garbage near the common landing. During the mid- to late-1600s, additional regulations were developed to address pollution of Boston Harbor.10
Even though disease was quite prevalent during the 1700s, little was known about the cause of disease in humans; therefore, it was not evident that a significant portion of disease could be attributed to the unsanitary conditions of the day. Consequently, government played a minimal role in the development of sanitary systems and during much of the 1700s, American cities remained relatively unsanitary.11
The major trades of the era (soapmakers, tanners, and butchers) showed little concern with the impact disposal of their extremely noxious wastes had on the citizenry and the environment. Household waste disposal practices were primarily mirror images of those in England. Garbage was burned or simply dumped into the streets, alleys, and waterways; swine freely roamed the streets.12 By the mid-1700s, American households, to a limited extent, began digging refuse pits for disposal of their household wastes, rather than throwing the garbage into the streets and alleys.13 However, even as late as 1800, visitors to New York City described some parts of the City as a "nasal disaster" because of odors reminiscent of "bad eggs dissolved in ammonia." 14
While government showed little interest in development of waste management systems, a few people took on the cause individually. For instance, in 1739, Benjamin Franklin and his neighbors unsuccessfully petitioned the Pennsylvania Assembly to stop waste dumping and remove tanneries from Philadelphia's commercial district. Mr. Franklin also instituted the first municipal street cleaning service in Philadelphia in 1757. 15
1800s: "We know water pollution contributes to disease, so we need to tell people they can't put their garbage in or around water."
Even though large portions of the country remained rural in nature, America gradually became more urbanized during the 1800s. Yet, in spite of increased urbanization and improved scientific knowledge of the correlation between filth and disease, solid waste management practices remained largely unchanged.

As late as the Civil War, pigs, goats, and stray dogs were free to roam the streets as "biological vacuum cleaners." In fact, the need to have animals available to eat the garbage was such a concern that Charleston, West Virginia enacted an ordinance in 1834 to prohibit vulture hunting because they ate the city's garbage!16 The concept of a "public nuisance" also came into being in the early 1800s in order to alleviate, among other things, the visual problems with, and inconvenience of, odors and rotting wastes in the streets and on private property.17

Figure 1. Dumping waste at sea in New York Harbor, a common practice in 1880s.
The seeds of change were sown in mid-1800s England where sanitation theory (the theory that filth could contribute to human illness) began gaining popularity and gradually making its way to America.18,19 To address increasing public health concerns, local governments began setting standards for the protection of human health. The nation's first public health code was enacted in New York City in 1866.
By the late 1800s, America had developed a rather significant industrial base and her cities were becoming more urbanized. Because the correlation between filth and disease had become much more of a scientific certainty, local governments slowly became more involved with addressing proper sanitation, though most efforts focused on water and wastewater systems rather than waste management systems. Furthermore, America's expanding industrial base led to additional problems of increasing amounts of industrial waste to dispose. However, change was not to come easily as local politics, costs, or general public apathy frequently thwarted attempts to establish local sanitation controls. In any event, by the late 1800s, the germ theory of disease, and its correlation to sanitary conditions, was reaching its peak largely due to three epidemics in the 1870s.20
A cholera epidemic in the Mississippi Valley in 1873 killed approximately 3,000 people, while New Orleans and Memphis were both struck with yellow fever epidemics. Then, in 1878, the South was struck with the worst yellow fever epidemic in the Nation's history. Due in large part to these epidemics, the federal government finally began to realize it should play a roll in ensuring sanitation, and created a National Board of Health in 1879.21
Prior to the 1890s, there was little local government effort to provide an organized system for waste collection and disposal. As the 19th Century ended, the need for such a collection system was becoming apparent primarily due to four public concerns. First, as cities grew and America became a more consumer-oriented society, household wastes, ashes, horse droppings, street sweepings, and general rubbish were becoming more overwhelming problems for cities and individuals to manage. Secondly, the danger to public health from unsanitary conditions was firmly established. Third, both citizens and politicians realized that a clean city would attract businesses and create jobs which would, in turn, improve local economies. Fourth, local government involvement in public sanitary services was already well-established with water supplies and sewage management systems. Garbage collection was a natural extension of public services, and increasingly, local citizens began demanding solutions.22
Early 1900s - 1945: "With World War I, the Roaring '20s, the Great Depression, and World War II, who has time to worry about garbage?"

Figure 2. Early 1900s refuse collection wagon.

During the first half of the 20th Century, the primary local government challenge with respect to sanitary services was adapting those services to increased urbanization, urban sprawl, and demand for improved services to rural communities. To address these issues, local government focus, both from engineering and financial standpoints, was primarily on water supply and sewage management. Waste management was still relegated to third-class status despite dramatic increases in the amount of solid waste generated. Furthermore, the first half of the 20th Century was dominated by two World Wars and the Great Depression. Even though the effects of the government's lack of focus on waste management became apparent during the years between World War I and World War II, government concern with waste collection and disposal took a back seat to the Depression and World War II. Thus, no substantial change to waste management practices was seen.23
After World War I, the Nation's economic recovery was astounding. Technical innovations, mass production techniques, easy credit, and increased wages translated into a consumer society and an expanding middle class through the Roaring '20s, with a concurrent increase in solid waste to be managed. Municipalities began to realize some sort of citywide waste collection and disposal service was needed and began providing such services. But, by the late 1920s, waste collection and disposal costs had soared in the wake of expanding city limits, forcing local governments to begin looking for ways to curb those costs. Focus, however, was directed toward contracting out such services and implementing mechanized collection rather than development of integrated waste management systems. During this period, municipalities began using transfer stations to centralize wastes and use larger vehicles, barges, and railroads to transport waste from the transfer station to a disposal site.24
While more waste was being generated and more efficiently managed during the interwar years, land disposal was still the primary method of final disposition. Many locations had the city or town "dump" where its waste was disposed. Though easy to construct and relatively cheap to operate, the dumps were generally located near rivers and streams, where liquids and refuse from the dumps could easily enter the water and threaten water supplies. In addition, they were extremely unsanitary, attracted vermin, gave off repugnant odors, and were fire hazards. It was not until 1929 that the federal government issued the first location restriction for disposal sites by recommending, but not requiring, dumps to be located away from river banks.25
From the beginning of the Great Depression to the end of World War II, various state laws and court rulings prohibited certain disposal practices. For instance, in 1934, the United States Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling requiring New York City to cease disposal of its municipal waste at sea. In the 1930s, California passed laws prohibiting disposal of garbage within 20 miles of shore.26 While these actions may have helped remove refuse from the waters near America's shores, they did not address the real question, "What is the best way to manage solid waste?"
Interestingly, the concept of a "sanitary landfill" was being developed in Great Britain in the 1920s. The British called this practice "controlled tipping" from which the term "tipping fee" (the fee charged by landfill operators to dispose of waste at their facility) was probably coined. While open dumping had been practiced for years, the idea of a pseudo-engineered fill was quite unique. By alternating layers of waste and either soil or another non-putrefying material, the belief was that vermin populations, odors, and fires could be reduced, making land disposal less smelly and more "sanitary" and acceptable. The first modern "sanitary landfill" in the US built on the British design, began operation in Fresno, California in 1934. During the 1930s and '40s, momentum slowly shifted toward the use of sanitary landfills across the nation.27
Post-war Period - 1964: "With prosperity again, we really need to do something. But what?"
The post-war period in America was an era of unprecedented changes. World War II was over and America was largely untouched, the Baby Boom was on, and prosperity soared. New consumer goods made life easier: air conditioners kept our homes cool in the summer, central heat warmed us in the winter, electric refrigeration accelerated the development of pre-packaged, easy-to-prepare food, television introduced us to Lucy and Ricky, Detroit filled our desire for big, comfortable cars so we could travel on the new Interstate highway system, new pesticides and herbicides helped ensure bountiful crop yields and perfectly-manicured lawns, and our factories churned out everything we could consume. Urban sprawl increased as the new middle class moved to the suburbs. Concurrent with this new consumer society and increase in population was a drastic increase in the amount of solid waste generated.28 All of this waste had to be managed, leading municipalities to expand their collection efforts. To help cover the cost, new service charges and taxes were instituted.29

For most of the country, landfills continued to be the primary method for waste disposal. While collection and disposal responsibility rested primarily with local governments, cities were finding it increasingly difficult to manage the waste generated as populations, consumerism, and industry grew. Open dumps, with the resulting fires, odors, and vermin problems, were still in use in many locations. While it was becoming quite apparent that a national emphasis on waste management was needed, it was not until 1953 that any sort of recommended national guidelines for waste disposal sites were published. These guidelines were based, in part, on sanitary fill methods developed during World War II.30 Even with criteria in place, most of the nation was slow to adopt them. In 1956, only about 37% of the landfills in the country were making an effort to follow the guidelines.31
1965 - 1991: "It's time to change the focus of the waste management problem."
For 200 years, waste management concerns were addressed by answering the question, "What can't be done with garbage?" While answers to this question may have been adequate for a rural America, those answers were entirely inadequate to address increasing urbanization and the significant increases in solid waste to be managed. Because solid waste was here to stay, it was necessary for the nation to make a fundamental shift in its thinking by asking, "What can be done with garbage that will protect both health and the environment?"

Though the federal government had established a long history of oversight of water resources (e.g. the River and Harbor Act of 1886 and the Federal Water Pollution Control Act of 1948),32 it was not until 1965 that the federal government finally put the solid waste problem on par with protection of water resources. In that year, Congress passed the Solid Waste Disposal Act (SWDA), the federal government's first effort to implement a comprehensive management framework for the nation's solid waste.33,34 The SWDA was designed to assist state and local governments with the technical and financial aspects of developing and managing waste disposal programs and to promote the development of guidelines for waste collection, transportation, recovery, and disposal.35,36 Amazingly, when the SWDA was passed, there were less than 10 full-time employees in state solid waste programs nationwide. Furthermore, no state had any real solid waste legislation; solid wastes were indirectly covered under health and nuisance statutes.37 Then, in 1970, Congress passed the Resource Recovery Act, shifting the emphasis of federal involvement from disposal to recycling, resource recovery, and conversion of waste to energy. It also stipulated that a national system for hazardous waste management be implemented.38,39 Also, in 1970, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was born. Solid waste management was now as great a national-level concern as water quality had been for many years.
In 1976, Congress expanded the federal government's roll in waste management by passing the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA), to be implemented by EPA. The goals of RCRA were to protect the environment, conserve resources, and reduce the amount of waste being generated. RCRA was divided into various Subtitles, two of which dealt directly with waste management issues. Subtitle C required development of a comprehensive hazardous waste management scheme to ensure those wastes were safely managed from the moment they were generated until final disposal (affectionately known as "cradle-to-grave"). Subtitle D was designed to deal with disposal of non-hazardous wastes and ensure non-hazardous waste disposal sites were constructed in a manner to greatly reduce environmental impacts.40
In 1980, in response to RCRA Subtitle C, EPA promulgated its first regulations for the management of hazardous waste. The regulations implemented several requirements: identification of solid and hazardous wastes, standards for generators of hazardous waste, standards for transporters of hazardous waste, standards for hazardous waste disposal facilities, and requirements that must be met to receive permits to operate a hazardous waste disposal facility. While specific details regarding the standards are well beyond the scope of this article, the standards clearly spelled out the cradle-to-grave management goal for hazardous waste.
In 1984, Congress amended RCRA by passing the Hazardous and Solid Waste Amendments of 1984 (HSWA). HSWA not only put into effect tough, new requirements for hazardous waste management and disposal, but also mandated that EPA develop criteria for new solid waste landfills to drastically reduce the likelihood that new Superfund sites would be created due to poorly constructed and operated landfills. Thus, in 1991 EPA promulgated a regulatory framework for the construction and operation of landfills receiving municipal solid waste. The criteria required all existing municipal waste landfills in the nation to either: (1) install a comprehensive groundwater and gas monitoring program, establish financial assurance to ensure funds were available for proper closure and monitoring after closure, and meet certain operational requirements; or (2) close. New landfills were required to be constructed with an engineered liner system capable of preventing landfill liquids from migrating into groundwater, in addition to implementing the groundwater and gas monitoring, financial assurance, and more stringent operational requirements. From a regulatory standpoint, the "open dump" was finally history.
1978 - 1980: "Uh, Washington? New York here. We have a problem."
Even with new federal authority over waste issues, one event would thrust historical waste management practices to the nation's attention as never before, demonstrating that the historical idea of "out of sight, out of mind" was not the best approach to waste management. Due almost entirely to this event, the federal government began taking an even greater role in environmental protection.

In 1836, the U. S. government was searching for a location to construct a canal between Lakes Erie and Ontario in upstate New York. The Government found an ideal location, but nothing came of the study until May 1892 when a gentleman named William Love took an interest in the site. Mr. Love's plan was to build an industrial city with cheap power provided by a canal connecting the upper and lower Niagara River. Unfortunately, financial problems resulted in Mr. Love abandoning the project, and the partially completed canal was sold in 1920. For over 30 years, the canal was the dumping ground for municipal garbage and chemical wastes from the City of Niagara, New York and surrounding municipalities. Finally, in 1953, the site was covered with soil and sold to the Niagara school system for one dollar.41,42
Over the ensuing years, a school and an entire neighborhood of private homes were built on top of and around the canal. Then, in 1978 after a record rainfall, toxic chemicals began to leak from the old canal into the yards and basements of the community. The Love Canal problem was thrust into the national spotlight as President Carter declared the entire area a disaster area, releasing emergency funds to evacuate the citizens.43
In 1980, directly in response to the Love Canal debacle, Congress passed the Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act (CERCLA, or more-commonly known as Superfund). Its purpose was to implement a national response for problems resulting from past hazardous waste management practices, to impose liability on those entities creating the problem, and to remediate contaminated soils and groundwater caused by those practices. CERCLA also imposed various taxes on chemical and petroleum industries, which were deposited into a trust fund (hence, the name "Superfund") to be used for remediations initiated under its provisions.


OKLAHOMA - When statutes identified specific, prohibited disposal practices, they typically were directed toward prevention of water pollution or the spread of disease to animals or humans, rather than attempt to develop a comprehensive waste management protocol. For example, in Oklahoma Territory it was unlawful to:
· "[throw] gas tar, or refuse of any gas house or factory into any public waters, river, or stream, or into any sewer or stream emptying into any such public water, river, or stream;"45
· "[dispose] of any article of food, drink, drug, or medicine [known to be] tainted, decayed, spoiled, or otherwise unwholesome or unfit to be eaten or drank with intent [that the material be consumed] by any person or animal;"46
· "put any dead animal, carcass, or part thereof, into any well, spring, brook, or branch of running water [used for] domestic purposes...[or] into any river, creek, or pond;" 47or
· "put any dead animal or any part of a carcass of a dead animal in any road, street, alley, lane, lot, field meadow, common or school section, without burying [at least two feet deep]."
 
Last edited:

Ariella

...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
211
Reaction score
54
Location
Toronto
There are a number of examples of these sorts of English medieval bylaws at Florilegium Urbanum.

Prohibition of unsanitary and fraudulent commercial practices

Provisions for sanitation and public safety

Sanitation measures from London

Maintaining the cleanliness of natural water courses

I've also seen some French customary law from thirteenth-century Orléans about flinging filth out of windows. There's a translation here.

Of course, if the bylaws had to be written down, it means that at least a few people were engaging in unsanitary practices, even if the majority of citizens disapproved of them.

There's also a scholarly article: Ernest L. Sabine, "Latrines and Cesspools of Mediaeval London," Speculum 9:3 (1934), 303-321, which shows up here as a .pdf of questionable legality.
 

Evaine

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
729
Reaction score
63
Location
Hay-on-Wye, town of books
Website
lifeinhay.blogspot.com
Here in Hay-on-Wye, in the nineteenth century, one of the by-laws concerned a little cul-de-sac called The Gardens, where the householders were allowed to keep pigs at the far end. The pig market was only a couple of minutes walk away, on the days that the beast market was held in the streets of Hay, and householders were allowed to walk their pig to market through the Gardens "as long as it was a well-tempered pig"!

Meanwhile at the other end of town, the local doctor was prosecuted for having a midden in the middle of the street outside his front door!
 

Shakesbear

knows a hawk from a handsaw
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
3,628
Reaction score
463
Location
Elsinore
Was it not the case the piss was collected for the tanners and fullers?
I seem to remember that 'piss collector' was one of the jobs featured in Tony Robinson's 'Worst Jobs in History' TV series.
Google 'Pure Collector'


Yes it was. And excrement from cess pits was used as manure on farms. Nice times!
 

TinneyH

Registered
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
35
Reaction score
6
Location
Wisconsin
Two sources about Italy: Trevor Dean's The Towns of Italy in the Later Middle Ages has some information on urban sanitation (and I think his book about an earlier period in Italy probably does too, but I don't have it in front of me), and also there's a book on medieval urban environmental law in northern Italy called Straws in the Wind, by Ronald E. Zupko and Robert A Laures.
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
Re sewage.

Thank you everyone. This is grand! I can swamp my opposition with details!

On the comments re sewage. Human waste is manure. It, when properly composted, is excellent to put back in the soil where it belongs. Where else would you put it so that it does no harm?

I once had a composting toilet, hope to install them again here. Clean green and no smell. Check the great Canadian ones which look just like any loo!
 
Last edited:

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,540
Location
Central Ohio
I don't want to start any sort of war or insult anyone, but - I've heard the Japanese use human manure (ETA - the nightsoil from some of the early posts in this thread - so it sounds like it's correct) for raising vegetables and that's the reason they can grow things like giant radishes. Since you've been in Japan, pdr, I'm sure you know whether this is fact or some fiction that was passed on. Puma
 

Steam&Ink

sekrit superhero
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
1,504
Reaction score
361
Location
Bottom-right hand side of the map. Tucked away dow
Website
steamandink.blogspot.com
When my sister was in China she said she used a long-drop toilet which a pig lived under. Mr Pig presumably fed on the waste.

After she saw that, she couldn't order anything with pork in it the entire time she was in China.
I believe her exact words were: "Sometimes the circle of life is just a little too tight."
:eek:
 

Deleted member 42

dryden said:
Methinks I see the new Arion Sail,
The Lute still trembling underneath thy nail.
At thy well sharpned thumb from Shore to Shore [45]
The Treble squeaks for fear, the Bases roar:
Echoes from Pissing-Ally, Sh—— call,
And Sh—— they resound from A—— Hall.
About thy boat the little Fishes throng,
As at the Morning Toast, that Floats along. [50]

From "Mac Flecknoe." John Dryden, 1682
 

Swordswoman

Resilient and kind
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
687
Reaction score
465
Location
UK
What a very interesting debate, pdr - you must tell us how it all turns out.

Unfortunately my area is France, and this doesn't help your case very much. Although there were indeed bylaws in Paris against fouling the streets and river, they needed to be reissued regularly because people kept doing it. In 'Paris in the Age of Absolutism', Professor Orest Ranum cites the 1600 ordinance, where articles 22 and 23 state 'All carters carrying and conveying manure, materials emptied from privies, mud and other filth, are forbidden to unload elsewhere than in ditches and gutters designed for this purpose... and also all persons are forbidden to throw any water, filth or garbage from the windows onto the aforesaid streets and thoroughfares, either in the day or at night, under penalty of two crowns' fine and prison.'

General hygiene in my period really was pretty appalling, as witness this 17th century journal of the birth and early life of Louis XIV, showing his first bath occurred at the age of seven. Disease was indeed rife (Paris was hit by plague almost every summer) partly due to the lack of clean drinking water. The eminent English physician Matthew Lister described in the late 17th century how a French colleague had to filter Seine water through 'three feet of sand in a cistern' before it could be drunk.

These attitudes continued until at least the late eighteenth century, and in 1764 la Morandiere describes the situation at Versailles like this:
'The communicating passages, courtyards, buildings in the wings, corridors, are full of urine and faeces; a pork butcher actually sticks and roasts his pigs at the bottom of the ministers' wing every morning; the avenue Saint-Cloud is covered with stagnant water and dead cats.'

It was not until 1794 when a Chair of Public Hygiene was established in Paris, by which time the situation was so desperate an attempt to investigate the sewers in 1782 resulted in the death by asphyxiation of a cleaner exposed to the fumes, and the near death of the scientific expert M. Verville merely by attempting to give artificial respiration to the cleaner (Memoirs of Jean-Noel Hallé quoted in 'The Foul and the Fragrant: Odor and the French Social Imagination' by Alain Corbin).

That said, I still think you are right to oppose the line that we are in some way 'better' than 'these people'. It was not ignorance that kept things this way - only the lack of the means to deal with them. The attempt on the sewers was part of an effort to experiment with chemicals which could break down the matter and disperse the effluvia - and where would we be today if we hadn't discovered chlorine?

Similarly, if your talk allows for it, I would point out the current situation in the UK. Money-saving councils have switched in many cases from weekly to fortnightly waste collection - and the result is that people are returning to the practices of fly-tipping and simply dumping their waste in public places. In other words - deprive us of our modern conveniences, and we behave in exactly the same way our ancestors did. There's not much 'better' about that...

Good luck!

Louise

ETA Sorry - my link is giving trouble. If you click on 'La societe francaise d'Ancien regime' at the bottom of the 'redirect' page, it should take you there all the same.
 
Last edited:

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
Sewage!

Thank you again for all the help, everyone.

Yes, Japan, and many other countries, have a sensible view of human sewage. In Japan it is composted either by each house/block of flats in their composting septic tank or is taken by the 'honey wagon' for composting. Taiwan has a similar system, as does Korea.

This is much healthier than dumping it in the river or sea.

The giant radish though is called daikon and it is naturally a whopping monster. So someone is a bit off there, Puma. I grow daikon here in NZ and NZ actually exports them to Asia.
 

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,540
Location
Central Ohio
Very interesting article, Sirius, and well worth reading for anyone who is interested in sludge and it's use.

This is a bit off in left field, but over ten years ago my husband dug a pond for us (with a backhoe). We're in an area of heavy glacial clay and an area that was inhabited by native Americans for thousands of years. In the pond excavation he dug out a native garbage/refuse pit (easy to recognize). Our daughter used the pond for her science project and discovered there were living (or revive-able) protozooans in the clay down to the 9' depth level (she got dry soil samples and hydrated them with distilled water). One of her deep protozooans was the one causing toxiplasmosis. Within a month, my husband developed toxiplasmosis in a lymph node and had to have it removed. (Only Dad I know who got sick from his daughter's science project.)

So - I'm really leery of fertilizers that might have the potential of transmitting bacteria virulent to humans. I prefer well ripened cow manure from old-fashioned farms and barring that, chemical fertilizer. I'll take my chances on chemicals rather than bacteria. Puma
 

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
1,009
Age
71
Location
Calgary, Canada
As recently as this year, Halifax harbour in Canada was still the dumping ground for raw sewage. Those are not little brown fish you see floating along.

On a related aside, quite a few of the midlist authors in fantasy are pish-poshed because their characters bathe regularly in a quasi-medieval setting.
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,278
Reaction score
2,137
Location
in the rain
I once found a note about a guy being cited for letting his pigs run free in town. Would have been Wales, late medieval... doubt I could find it again, but I'll have a look once I'm at home on my own 'puter.
 

Doogs

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
1,047
Reaction score
213
Location
Austin, TX
Website
doogs.wordpress.com
Not exactly historical...but I stumbled upon this today:

Good-News-You-Can-Finally-Quit-Your-Job_500x500.jpg
 

MaryMumsy

the original blond bombshell
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
3,396
Reaction score
830
Location
Scottsdale, Arizona
I forgot to mention. From 1955-1958 we lived in Germany. Away from the cities, in villages and on farms, there was frequently a large haystack out front. The men and boys used it for a urinal when working outside. I don't know what the logic was, but my mother made sure we looked at the other side of the road if there was someone standing near the haystack :D.

MM