Beta Readers

Edman · Aug 16, 2009

First off, I'm new to these forums (it's a little nerve rattling to be honest), so I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post, but I was wondering if any of you had any tips on getting the most out of "beta" readers. I've shown some samples to family and friends, but I'm not sure if they're being completely honest. I tell them not to be biased, but I still have this feeling that they're just being nice. Don't get me wrong words of encouragement are wonderful, but I would really like some advice from them. Asking a complete stranger seems to be out of the question, but I do have a friend that HATES reading. (poor guy) Should I let him read some, or is that just a waste of time? Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, for the record, I do like my work. I just feel that it could always be better.

Mr Flibble · Aug 16, 2009

Well family and friends are okay to start with. But if you really want to up your game, then other writers is the way to go.

There's a forum here to ask for betas: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Make sure you're up front about what you want - line by line? General overview? and how harsh you can take ( from 'be gentle' right up to 'savage me')

There are some fabulous guys on here who have helped me immeasurably. Also make sure you go to the Share Your Work forum ( password vista).

Critting other peoples work really does help you evaluate your own. Maybe post your first couple of pages and see what people think. Post what you think of other peoples' work.

And we're quite friendly really. We don't bite. Much

ChaosTitan · Aug 16, 2009

First, check out the Share Your Work section of these forums. Look at the genre room you write in and see how other folks crit. If it feels like a good fit, try posting there.

We also have a separate board where you can advertise your need for a Beta or Crit Partner.

Don't use family members, even if they promise to be critical. Usually they can't be. When you find someone willing to beta, make sure you're clear up front about what type of crit you want (the level of bluntness, what you want them to look for). Don't ever argue with a crit. Take the advice or leave it. Ask questions if you need a point clarified, but don't argue it. Always thank the beta for their time, and try to settle on an acceptable timeframe for them to crit.

Edman · Aug 16, 2009

Ok, thank you. I belong to another forum that can be downright terrible to new users. Especially, if they post in the wrong place. I'll look into that.

katiemac · Aug 16, 2009

Like others have said, we have the beta forum here. There are a couple of stickies (some written by yours truly) you might want to check out.

The biggest thing I stress when it comes to beta readers is to know your beta reader. Since we do a lot of Internet critiquing these days I don't mean you need to know your beta reader personally (in fact, as others suggested, family and friends make bad beta readers). But you need to know what type of beta they are. Is this someone who likes to do line by lines? Do they only look at plot structure? Are they terrible at identifying character development but love fixing grammar mistakes?

Likewise, you should know what your weaknesses are so you can pair with a beta who can help you in those areas. The biggest thing is communication. Set some ground rules before you begin the partnership (and it is a kind of partnership) so you both know what to expect (will you be handing over your entire manuscript at once? do you want it returned in a week? Maybe the beta only wants you to send the first three chapters and she'll critique them for you by next Tuesday). There are a lot of things to discuss.

This is one reason I set up the Beta Project. (In a subforum of the Beta Reader forum.) About 50 AW members participated. They offered up excerpts of their novels, and received three blind critques. You can see that everyone critiques differently, and it's important you find a beta reader who can help you and understands what you want.

MsGneiss · Aug 16, 2009

I've never shown anything I've written to friends or family. However, I just had a really excellent experience with two beta readers (both from AW). I approached one of them because from her posts on these forums I gathered that she had the experience and background to offer most assistance with my project, and I also thought that she might be interested. I approached her about it, told her the kind of feedback I'd like, and sent my baby off. She came back with a ton of incredibly useful advice. Another beta reader I also met here on AW, and even though our genres were completely different, we ended up beta-reading for each other with good results. So, as of now, I'm very positive on the whole idea of strangers reading your stuff. Just chose your strangers with some insight and consideration, and state your expectations clearly.

Chasing the Horizon · Aug 16, 2009

I have trouble finding beta readers, for some unknown reason . . .

kuatolives · Aug 17, 2009

Actually, friends and family can be great beta readers, but in non obvious ways. While their objectivity (as the others have said) can be suspect, what isn't suspect is how long they get around to reading something or how long it takes them to finish.

I had two beta readers stop reading one of my books in the exact same place and both took a few weeks to get around to reading the rest of it. (What does THAT tell you?) While both claimed to 'love' the book, the proof the book sucked was in the fact it took them a month to finish it. (And only after I nagged them)

I'd also often catch my ex-girlfriend (who claimed to be my biggest fan) reading other books while reading one of mine. ACK! So while she eventually gushed over the manuscript, you already kind of know the truth.
When your friends and family are eager to read your stuff instead of you having to force feed them like turnips down a kid's throat, then you know you're getting better. Sure, let family and friends read. Just know what to look for.

Libbie · Aug 17, 2009

Here's a nice little story to illustrate the problem with using friends and family as beta readers.

Recently my mom begged me to send her my WIP so she could read it. I usually don't let her read anything I write until it's finished. She's not a reader.

She's had the first part of my book for a couple of weeks now and I asked her opinion of it. She raved about it (of course -- she's my mom!) She said it's the best thing I've ever written! Well, I happen to agree with her on that point. I asked her what her favorite and least favorite parts were. She got all quiet and said, "Well, actually, I haven't read it yet."

:roll:

Oh, moms. They're so great. Not the best beta readers, though.

Red-Green · Aug 17, 2009

People who are readers rather than writers can be great help, too, but I suggest creating a "questionnaire" to go along with the book. I have four acquaintances who are avid readers and when I want them to beta read, I send about 20 questions for them to answers as/after they read the book. Some of it's basic stuff, but some of the questions are specific to the book: how did you feel in chapter six, when X did blah?

Straka · Aug 17, 2009

The best beta readers are writers who are better than or on the same level with you. Hunt around. You'll find them.

Libbie · Aug 17, 2009

Straka said:
The best beta readers are writers who are better than or on the same level with you. Hunt around. You'll find them.

this is absolutely true. They understand craft at least as well as you do, and getting critiques from them can help push your own work further. (Farther?)

ishtar'sgate · Aug 17, 2009

Straka said:
The best beta readers are writers who are better than or on the same level with you. Hunt around. You'll find them.

I guess I look for something else in a beta. I don't want another writer's opinion. I'm looking strictly for the opinion of a reader. Does it make you want to read on? Are you interested in the storyline? Is the tension in the right places? Does any part confuse you? And other questions.
My beta is widely read in a variety of genres and has no problem telling me exactly what he thinks. I appreciate his honesty, his bluntness and he knows better than to tell me HOW to fix something. He tells me where he thinks I've gone wrong and that's it. Interestingly, when my manuscript sold and I worked with an editor, he did exactly the same thing. He indicated paragraphs or sections that didn't work for him but never advised me how to make revisions. He left that up to me then let me know when he was satisfied with what I'd done.

MsGneiss · Aug 17, 2009

ishtar'sgate said:
I guess I look for something else in a beta. I don't want another writer's opinion. I'm looking strictly for the opinion of a reader. Does it make you want to read on? Are you interested in the storyline? Is the tension in the right places? Does any part confuse you? And other questions.
My beta is widely read in a variety of genres and has no problem telling me exactly what he thinks. I appreciate his honesty, his bluntness and he knows better than to tell me HOW to fix something. He tells me where he thinks I've gone wrong and that's it. Interestingly, when my manuscript sold and I worked with an editor, he did exactly the same thing. He indicated paragraphs or sections that didn't work for him but never advised me how to make revisions. He left that up to me then let me know when he was satisfied with what I'd done.

I agree with this. I don't want the criticism of a writer, but that of a reader. More specifically - what didn't make sense? and where did you lose interest?

Parametric · Aug 17, 2009

I don't understand this distinction between a "writer's opinion" and a "reader's opinion". Is a reader supposed to be less familiar with the mechanics of writing? Why doesn't a writer still count as a reader? Confused.

:Shrug:

Maryn · Aug 17, 2009

Nothing wrong with writers having different goals as the outcome of a beta read. I approach it like Straka does.

Maryn, officially on the record

Samantha's_Song · Aug 17, 2009

Whilst a reader-only is great for telling you whether the story was good, or not, whatever the case may be, another writer's POV might help get your ms accepted by an agent.

sleepsheep said:
I agree with this. I don't want the criticism of a writer, but that of a reader. More specifically - what didn't make sense? and where did you lose interest?

Wonderlander · Aug 17, 2009

I dunno, I think writers are great at teasing out why something doesn't work, but sometimes they can get a little hung up on the rules and accepted wisdom. Readers tend to respond on a less practical but more impression-based level, and ultimately as well readers and not writers will make up the audience if the book is to succeed.

I think both are great, but they perform slightly different roles.

DeleyanLee · Aug 17, 2009

Parametric said:
I don't understand this distinction between a "writer's opinion" and a "reader's opinion". Is a reader supposed to be less familiar with the mechanics of writing? Why doesn't a writer still count as a reader? Confused.

This is my theory after 30+ years hanging with writers, so please take it as such.

Writers and Readers brains are hard-wired differently. It's really as simple as that.

Readers want only the end experience in their reading. Did they enjoy it? What was their most/least favorite part? Character? Would they want to read it again? Would they recommend it to their friends?

Writers, even before they start writing, look at the reading experience differently. They try to understand things not written in the text. They try to read between the lines more. If they're smart, they actively pick apart scenes and stories to figure out how they worked and why those words were the best ones. They're naturally more inquisitive and judgemental about the writing itself. Often, Writers lose sight of the story they're reading to pick the book apart about all the things the author did "wrong".

It's not to say that Writers can't retain or regain their abilitity to be Readers. If you can find a beta who has that capacity, treat them like the precious precious thing they are, for they're rare beyond belief. In my 30+ years of writing, I've found exactly TWO people who can do it.

It's good to have a Writer to go over your MIP, but my experience is always to have Reader-betas first (if possible) and then Writer-betas.

RJK · Aug 17, 2009

I'd like a beta who can help me with the finer points of grammar. I'm still on the uphill slope of the grammar learning curve.
Of course, if the beta finds a plot hole, that's great too.
I think the difference between asking a writer and a reader to beta your WIP, is the kind of response you get. A writer will tell you that you have developed characters A,B & C perfectly, but D & E seem two dimensional and may need some work. A reader will say I didn't like characters D & E.
A writer will tell you specifically, they got lost, geographically in this scene, where a reader will say I was confused.
A writer will tell you, you need more dialog tags in certain scenes, where a reader will say I was confused.
I could go on, but you get the picture.

Red Sharpie · Aug 17, 2009

Also new, as far as posting goes, but I'd like to contribute on this one.

There is definitely a difference between writer and reader betas. The difference being that a reader is looking to be entertained and a writer is digging to find the flaws (not that writers don't want to be entertained too, it's just that the main focus is different). I've found that an honest "reader" might (if you're lucky) tell you "they didn't like this," but an honest "writer" will tell you why. I think a mix of both is good.

A person's relation to you doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. My sister is one of my most helpful readers (it helps that she knows a bit about writing, too). On the other hand, my mom didn't get very far even after pushing me to let her read it (and saying how good it is anyway! okay, mom...whatever you say.)

The only way to know if someone is helpful is by trial and error. Sometimes people (especially friends) you think will be helpful don't help you at all, and people you might have written off say surprising things that make you see flaws you were completely blind to. But don't make anyone who doesn't want to read it read it -- the most likely outcome is that they will not enjoy it and it will be disheartening. Strangers are actually a good resource because they have no bias toward you. The resources on this forum are a good place to look.

Samantha's_Song · Aug 17, 2009

I can't help but think that writers, as beta readers, are seen as someone who would robotically go through a person's work to sort out the bad bits: grammar, spelling, punctuation, POV, head-hopping etc.
For myself, I am very picky about what I will beta read, and the main point for me agreeing to read anything at all, for anyone, is the story, 100 per cent of the time. If I don't think I'd enjoy the actual story, I wouldn't take on the ms. I think that makes me a reader as well as a writer, doesn't it? :Shrug:

K. Taylor · Aug 17, 2009

Best betas I've had are online friends that write for a hobby....so they know something about what you're going through, but they're not stuck on the "make it perfect" mindset of a Writer. They've always told me what they enjoy and what didn't work.....and there's just enough attachment that they don't want to let me down by flaking.

The thing about getting a stranger to beta is that they're still biased, it's just not personally toward you. If you can find a stranger that won't flake on reading it, cool, but you still should have betas at least a little familiar with your writing/mindset, too. Someone who knows your writing can say "I see what you're trying for, but..", whereas the stranger thinks "Fail!"

RJK · Aug 17, 2009

I couldn't disagree more with Taylor. When I crit works in SYW, I want the WIP to be a success. I try to impart some encouragement, but at the same time, if I am to be true to the poster, I must point out the flaws. That, in no way is a desire for the writer to fail. It is a desire for him to learn.

K. Taylor · Aug 17, 2009

I don't mean there's a desire for the writer to fail. It's that the words are failing in the stranger's eyes because they can't see the story through the errors. If the writer is asking for a line edit, then okay. Otherwise.........Writers have a hard time taking off their Writer hats even when they're asked to be a Reader.

Beta Readers

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