prologue?

hot_star25 · Aug 7, 2009

For my novel i'm thinking of starting off with a dream. I was wondering would the dream part be the prologue or the part of chapter 1?
okay what if you were to write the dream part of the chapter how would you type it up?
Would it be in like a different font or would you use make a whole new chapter
Pls help

Zipotes · Aug 7, 2009

Whatever you feel would work best. If you think it may be confusing going from dream to reality then you could keep it as a prologue. If the dream foreshadows future events or reflects at past events, etc. it would be an interesting prologue.
It's really up to you though as the writer.

lucidzfl · Aug 7, 2009

hot_star25 said:
For my novel i'm thinking of starting off with a dream. I was wondering would the dream part be the prologue or the part of chapter 1?
Pls help

Well, not for nothing but so far, you're two for two on bad ideas.

Prologues are generally a bad idea. And starting a book with a dream is a bad idea.

Hope that helps.

ChaosTitan · Aug 7, 2009

Starting a book of with a dream, prologue or not, is tricky and usually advised against. Dreams, by definition, are false and imagined, and readers want to know your narrator and the world they inhabit/problem they are facing.

I'm sure it's been done well, but it's rare.

Lisa Cox · Aug 7, 2009

Prologues are generally a bad idea.

Too much of a generalisation, I think. Prologues are brilliant *when they work*. Let's not disregard them entirely. If a prologue is necessary for your story, then write one.

But I will say I'm not a fan of dreams opening a novel. I like to get straight into the story.

narnia · Aug 7, 2009

With all due respect to the anti-prologue brigade, it is my opinion that prologues are just another tool that a writer can employ to tell their story. Just as with any tool, it can be used correctly or incorrectly. I also feel that telling new writers that prologues are bad, evil, run far away or whatever description you would like to apply is depriving them of an opportunity. Prologues can and do work, and if a writer wants to use it effectively then more power to him or her.

Many many best-selling authors use them. Naturally it is open to debate as to the effectiveness, but I have never heard one author say prologues are evil in any of the seminars I have attended over the years. (Yes, many, and all or most taught by authors who consistently hit the NYT best seller list.)

Here are links to varying opinions/information about prologues. I am sure you will find many more by searching the internet or browsing through the various writing books found on shelves everywhere. Go to the bookstore and pick up books by authors you enjoy. If they use prologues, study them to see how they are used and decide for yourself if it works for you or not.

http://www.writing-world.com/fiction/prologue.shtml

http://forensicsandfaith.blogspot.com/2008/03/writing-prologue-part-1.html

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/3-reasons-to-ditch-your-novels-prologue/

http://www.markterrybooks.com/2007/07/problem-with-prologues.html

http://foremostpress.com/authors/articles/prologue.html

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_authors_use_a_prologue

http://www.ireadromance.com/wordpress/?p=424

The dream question, well, many agents will toss out subs that start with dreams unless it is very well done for various reasons (likewise a search would turn up additional information on this as well). IMVHO, how well you handle it would determine if you should use it or not.

Best of luck with your work in progress!

:Sun:

Karen Junker · Aug 7, 2009

NYT bestsellling authors can get away with more than an aspiring writer can get away with.

I've been the organizer of a writers' conference and I've attended many other writing workshops and conferences. I've been a first reader for an award winning, large NY publisher of SFF. I've heard several editors and agents say that a prologue is usually a sign of a beginning writer.

Why?

Because a newer writer will want to unload a whole lot of back story in the opening of a story. This is usually not a good idea. Most of the stuff we want the reader to know can be fed into the narrative or dialogue in small increments later in the story and the story will not suffer for it.

A whole dream sequence/prologue could be summarized in dialogue in one or two lines, or in the character's POV. (The sparkling gem looked exactly like the one in his dream...)

When I read submissions, I almost never get past a dream sequence. The reason is not just that it is a dream sequence, the reason is that the writer usually also has other problems with the basics of submitting a manuscript for professional publication.

So, I'd advise anyone who is submitting a piece with a prologue or a dream to make sure and have the work critted by someone with a good eye for the nuts and bolts of writing.

lucidzfl · Aug 7, 2009

lisamarie84x said:
Too much of a generalisation, I think. Prologues are brilliant *when they work*. Let's not disregard them entirely. If a prologue is necessary for your story, then write one.

But I will say I'm not a fan of dreams opening a novel. I like to get straight into the story.

Karen felt like putting more effort into the answer than I did. But what she said is what I was saying.

sharla · Aug 7, 2009

For what it's worth, I've read many agent opinions that detail how NOT to start a novel...basically what will make them say no and not read further...

- waking up to a ringing phone or doorbell
- a dream
- talking to themselves in a mirror

More but I can't remember them. Basically they want to start with the action, not a description or something not really happening.

Mr Flibble · Aug 7, 2009

No, no! Not the P word! Arrrgh!

Prologue - not a problem provided it isn't an info dump 'the story up till now' or 'the history of this' prologue. A 'show' scene of an imortant part of the story would work fine, and does in many cases ( even for those pub houses / agents that supposedly say they hate them) but bear in mind some readers won't read them.

But to start with a dream...you'd have to make it crystal clear ASAP that it WAS a dream. Because most readers don't wan to to know ten pages in that what they thought was a really cool story was a lie.

It could work. If you did it right. But it's tricky.

If your protag is dreaming about an actual event in their life that plays into the plot, you'd be better off showing that event than showing a dream about it.

Delhomeboy · Aug 7, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
Prologue - not a problem provided it isn't an info dump 'the story up till now' or 'the history of this' prologue. A 'show' scene of an imortant part of the story would work fine, and does in many cases ( even for those pub houses / agents that supposedly say they hate them) but bear in mind some readers won't read them.

I agree. Pretty much every book I've read with a prologue actually made me want to read further. They do this by setting stuff up, but in doing so, bringing about more questions.

lucidzfl · Aug 7, 2009

I see a lot of people saying "it could work, but its tough/tricky" whatever.

Thats pretty much what I was always taught as well. I feel like writing is challenging enough without trying to do things people actively discourage against.

narnia · Aug 7, 2009

I am a first time author whose book contains a prologue and with some luck and an awesome agent's hard work will be out some time next year. So far during the revision process I have not been told to remove the prologue because it does not work.

I also did my homework on how to use a prologue and read varying opinions, tried to make it part of a chapter, went back and forth, and the end result was the prologue stayed.

Hence my observations above.

JMVHO

lucidzfl · Aug 7, 2009

Delhomeboy said:
I agree. Pretty much every book I've read with a prologue actually made me want to read further. They do this by setting stuff up, but in doing so, bringing about more questions.

If the prologue is about the MC maybe.

I don't think I personally would want to read a book where the prologue wasn't related to the MC, it would leave me floundering and not really sure who to root for/ identify with, etc.

But then again, if you're writing a prologue about the MC, why not just feed that information out over the course of the novel.

Mr Flibble · Aug 7, 2009

lucidzfl said:
If the prologue is about the MC maybe.

I don't think I personally would want to read a book where the prologue wasn't related to the MC, it would leave me floundering and not really sure who to root for/ identify with, etc.
.

What about murder mystery books where the prologue is them killing the first victim

Or setting up a mystery about the main character the MC interacts with

Or any number of prologues that set up an intrigue that impacts the whole book without the MC being there at all?

IMO it's not the prologue that's the problem. Starting with a dream MAY be. Unless it's done perfectly.

lucidzfl · Aug 7, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
What about murder mystery books where the prologue is them killing the first victim

Or setting up a mystery about the main character the MC interacts with

Or any number of prologues that set up an intrigue that impacts the whole book without the MC being there at all?

Well just to play devils advocate, couldn't any of the things you just mentioned simply be a first chapter and not a prologue?

Mr Flibble · Aug 7, 2009

And they might not be able to be, if they are divided from the main story by tens of years or whathaveyou

Some things just work better as prologues.

blacbird · Aug 7, 2009

narnia said:
I am a first time author whose book contains a prologue and with some luck and an awesome agent's hard work will be out some time next year. So far during the revision process I have not been told to remove the prologue because it does not work.

Which means it works. I think much of the anti-prologue reaction is from people seeing things called "prologue" in manuscripts which are either 1) blatant backstory info-dumps, or 2) nothing more than Chapter One. Some beginning writers, in particular, seem to be entranced with a kind of pretention that somehow having a "prologue" makes the novel seem more important, more weighty. This is a disease especially endemic to the Fantasy genre.

caw

Ravenlocks · Aug 7, 2009

Speaking as a reader, one big reason I'm anti-prologue is that I want to get into the story ASAP. If there's a prologue, I read it and start to get into it, and then suddenly that part of the story is over and here's Chapter One, and I have to go through the "getting into it" process all over again. I HATE that (I have the same problem with time cuts in movies, but I digress).

Why give your readers an excuse to put down your book? Don't make them have to get into your story twice.

Just my $0.02.

The Lonely One · Aug 7, 2009

hot_star25 said:
For my novel i'm thinking of starting off with a dream. I was wondering would the dream part be the prologue or the part of chapter 1?
okay what if you were to write the dream part of the chapter how would you type it up?
Would it be in like a different font or would you use make a whole new chapter
Pls help

Ah, the well-aged prologue question.

To prologue or not to prologue?

If I were to start with a dream, I would put it in Chapter 1, explicitly let readers know it was a dream upfront, then give a line break after the dream. The regular narrative would begin after that.

Something like:

Carolyn dreamed she was a frog. The frog jumped around blah blah blah..............................................................
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
------------------da;fjkdlsjfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffflkdd
(if you can't tell this is the dream, just imagine words instead of nonsense)

### (<---line break)

This is now the narrative. etc. so on and so forth....fjdalkasjdlskadjsalk
adjaskldjsalsjdakljdaslkdjslksajlkasjdklsa

Yes. This is turning out to be an excellent story.

Anywho, that's just my way of doing things. I don't like the "it was all a dream thing," but I only don't like it when it seems like a plot fixer-upper. If you just say "this is a dream: deal with it" right away, that's how I think a narrator aught to talk to a reader. Stern, unwavering and honest with their intentions.

Prologues I would reserve for special situations which offer flavor or depth that doesn't fit in the narrative. But like others say, up to you. Always up to you.

hot_star25 · Aug 7, 2009

sharla said:
For what it's worth, I've read many agent opinions that detail how NOT to start a novel...basically what will make them say no and not read further...

- waking up to a ringing phone or doorbell
- a dream
- talking to themselves in a mirror

More but I can't remember them. Basically they want to start with the action, not a description or something not really happening.

so what if your dream is the action

The Lonely One · Aug 7, 2009

hot_star25 said:
so what if your dream is the action

It's your job as a writer to be convincing on that end. If you're making a point about the dream being an involuntary action that kick-starts the narrative, it's in the way you present it that will have people saying yay or nay.

You have to let us into your character's head. Into your world. We want, we need to be insiders.

How to do that? I don't think we have any definite way of taking that road with you. That dark scary road is one we each take, balls out (some of us...), alone, finding our way through the woods.

Mr Flibble · Aug 7, 2009

hot_star25 said:
so what if your dream is the action

Make it absolutely clear from the get go that it IS a dream, as the Lonely One said

X knew she was dreaming when the rabbit turned pink and began to talk...

Last night I dreamed I went to Manderley again...

There should be a law against dreaming about your mother-in-law naked...

The Lonely One · Aug 7, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
There should be a law against dreaming about your mother-in-law naked...

Oh goodness. Does anyone know how to draft legislation? I'm Googling the number to the governor's office...

Delhomeboy · Aug 7, 2009

lucidzfl said:
Well just to play devils advocate, couldn't any of the things you just mentioned simply be a first chapter and not a prologue?

I think prologue's are used as a way to put in scenes that DO have something to do with the novel, but are not, really in the FLOW of the novel. Did that make sense? I doubt it, but the best example I can think of is the one in my novel. My prologue is about the main character, but is a scene with him as a child. The entire rest of the book is him as an adult. I think a prologue is preferable to the "30 years later" thing I'd have to use otherwise.

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