Post-nuclear war question

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JermanD

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My story is in its earliest stages, and I have a quick question. What is a good amount of time between the nuclear bombs dropping arouund the world, and people coming out of shelters?
Also, on a side note just for fun answers :): What would you do post acpocolypse? Imagine you were coming out of a fallout shelter say...189 years after the bombs dropped, and were seeing everything for the first time and just had some old maps from before "the war" to help you out. What would you do? Where would you go?

Thanks and I am interested to see your replies :)

JermanD
 
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Ravenlocks

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Where would you go?
Not very far. I imagine it would be pretty scary. The newly-emerged humans might also be so unaccustomed to sunlight that it could be dangerous to be out in it for long (unless they had fancy lamps to sit under in the shelter).

I assume the timeframe for emerging from the shelters would depend on where the people were and the radiation levels outside. A radiation monitor would probably be a good thing to take along if you went anywhere on the surface.

Also, and I thought this was kind of interesting although it may be totally irrelevant for your story, but I read that in the Chernobyl area the radiation moves around to some extent. Some places might be clean one month and contaminated the next. I can't point you to where I read that, though, because I forgot the exact source.
 

JermanD

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Also, and I thought this was kind of interesting although it may be totally irrelevant for your story, but I read that in the Chernobyl area the radiation moves around to some extent. Some places might be clean one month and contaminated the next.
Hmm... that seems super interesting! I'll have to google that :) Thanks for the info Raven!
 

efkelley

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The amount of time it takes for the radiation to return to 'normal' depends entirely on how much radiation your bombs produced.

For your other questions, you should play some Fallout:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_3

A highly entertaining game with a very entertaining story. :D
 

Voluptuary_Manque'

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One thing to keep in mind is the actual effects of radiation at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They seem to be much shorter term than those at Chernobyl and except for those exposed at the actual attacks, there hasn't been anywhere near as much illness from the exposure as was initially expected. I wish I could give you a link to that but I distinctly remember reading that somewhere. I was surprised.

Anyway, why are you writing a post-Apocalyptical story in the 'oughts? That was a fifties and sixties fixation. Nostalgia, perhaps? :D
 

Ravenlocks

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Depending on how it's done, it could still be pretty topical. More countries are obtaining nuclear bombs. Also, I'm sure some nuclear bombs are floating around unaccounted-for, and the folks who get their hands on those might be more likely to use them. I doubt the US/USSR ever really would have. They both had too much to lose. Fringe groups with nuclear bombs? Nothing to lose.
 

Vincent

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About as long as your food and water stocks last, I'd imagine.

The old cold war era advice was don't leave the shelter for at least two weeks, if in an area blanketed by fallout, and then only leave it for short periods each day for several weeks or even months after.
 

Vincent

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Try googling some old FEMA plans or something, there's lots of material out there.
 

Lhun

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One thing to keep in mind is the actual effects of radiation at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They seem to be much shorter term than those at Chernobyl and except for those exposed at the actual attacks, there hasn't been anywhere near as much illness from the exposure as was initially expected. I wish I could give you a link to that but I distinctly remember reading that somewhere. I was surprised.
There are two ways nuclear bombs cause radiation pollution. One, by still radioactive material released from the bomb, two, by secondary radioativity caused by neutrons released from the bomb.
The first will be lower, the bigger the bomb is. There are even ways to build fusion devices that do not require a fission charge to ignite, those will not leave any radioactive residue. And even for fission devices, efficiency is always a major concern in construction since fissile material is hellishly expensive. And the more of it that burns in the explosion the less the fallout.
Secondary radioactivity is hard to estimate, it depends mostly on the kind of material around the blast.
Generally though, nuclear bombs do not produce a whole lot of fallout, and modern bombs a lot less than the ones used in japan. So the omnipresent radioactivity you see in the fallout games would not be caused by a nuclear war. (and i recommend playing Fallout 1 and 2, 3 sucks. Well 2 is mediocre too, mostly because it's buggy as hell)
Also, the hotter the radioactive material is, the shorter it's half-life. Even the hot zones after a nuclear war would'nt be too dangerous after a few years.
For long-time radiation you need a dirty bomb, not a nuclear bomb. But those are strictly terrorist weapons, there is no real military use for them.
 

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Not sure if it might help you but this site is the account of a russian woman going round Chernobyl on a bike. I found it a nice account and she has good pictures that helped me visualise abandoned buildings and towns.
 

cathyfreeze

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My story is in its earliest stages, and I have a quick question. What is a good amount of time between the nuclear bombs dropping arouund the world, and people coming out of shelters?
Also, on a side note just for fun answers :): What would you do post acpocolypse? Imagine you were coming out of a fallout shelter say...189 years after the bombs dropped, and were seeing everything for the first time and just had some old maps from before "the war" to help you out. What would you do? Where would you go?

Thanks and I am interested to see your replies :)

JermanD

Haven't read all the other replies, so excuse if i'm repeating them. ;)

Here's a neato and rather detailed scenario of how a war could have gone down and its consequences: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nuclearwar1.html

It posits a surprising # of the world's pop left after a war (above ground.)

"July 1988...Current population figures are: Rio Grande Valley--690,000; Travis County--550,000; Texas--16,800,000; the United States--245,000,000; the world--5,150,000,000. [right before the war]

"August 1989...Surviving Americans now number 45,000,000, including 4,000,000 Texans. A few million surviving Americans are permanently sterile due to radiation exposure. World population is now 3,300,000,000."

It culled and collated from an impressive group of sources, from what i can see. :)

Another site: http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/Sagan-Nuclear-Consequences31oct83.htm

Carl Sagan has a much less optimistic idea, based generally on scientific study of Mars (so you have to skim down past his Mars observations to his extrapolations to how this fits into a post-nuc world.)

Partial quote follows:

"it is possible that something approaching half the human population on the planet would be killed or seriously injured by the direct effects of a nuclear war. Social disruption; the unavailability of electricity, fuel, transportation, food deliveries, communications, and other civil services; the absence of medical care; the decline in sanitation measures; rampant disease and severe psychiatric disorders would doubtless claim collectively a significant number of further victims. But a range of additional effects—some unexpected, some inadequately treated in earlier studies, some uncovered by us only recently—makes the picture much more somber still."

There are some kick-ass graphs and explanations that follow. I only skimmed, looking for a time-line (since you want people to re-emerge in around 200yrs.) Didn't find that, but did see some great explanations of eco-system changes.

On another site, Sagan talks specifically about nuclear winter:

"The cold, the dark and the intense radioactivity, together lasting for months, represent a severe assault on our civilization and our species. Civil and sanitary services would be wiped out. Medical facilities, drugs, the most rudimentary means for relieving the vast human suffering, would be unavailable. Any but the most elaborate shelters would be useless, quite apart from the question of what good it might be to emerge a few months later. Synthetics burned in the destruction of the cities would produce a wide variety of toxic gases, including carbon monoxide, cyanides, dioxins and furans. After the dust and soot settled out, the solar ultraviolet flux would be much larger than its present value. Immunity to disease would decline. Epidemics and pandemics would be rampant, especially after the billion or so unburied bodies began to thaw. Moreover, the combined influence of these severe and simultaneous stresses on life are likely to produce even more adverse consequences -- biologists call them synergisms -- that we are not yet wise enough to foresee." (http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/sagan_nuclear_winter.html)

I can't see it lasting 200 yrs, but it would change, totally, the world that your survivors walk out into. Non-man-made ice ages, however, did last hundreds of years. And once the world was chilled like that....

You *can* see the effects of a real-world nuclear disaster, if you want to look at pictures of Chornobyl:

http://englishrussia.com/?p=293

This place is fascinating to me in that the soil around it for hundreds of miles is *still* considered to irradiated to safely grow crops in (tho poor people are doing just that.) And yet the wildlife around the city is flourishing, since the absence of *people* is considered much more helpful to wildlife than the radiation is debilitating. :)

By nuc-war standards, Chornobyl is a very small disaster. Here's another site, tho, that talks about the real effects: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/chernobyl/inf07.html

And i saw a show, some time ago, where they sent a robot in to check out the reactor that collapsed--it's still deadly close in, and it's gonna be for a looong time (can't, offhand, find out how long.) And the plug of cement and such is crumbling, and the doc hinted that if (and when) it collapsed, there'd be a sizable leak of still-deadly radiation into the atmosphere. But you know how those docs love to cry wolf. Heh.

Common understanding (which is, admittedly, often specious, is that direct-hit sites would be dangerous to walk through and deadly to live in or eat from for hundreds of hears.)

You can tell that i loves this stuff. ;) I'm a child of the 60s--the era of nuclear fear. You embrace your fears or they eat you up. Heh.
 

cathyfreeze

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And yahno, i didn't answer your questions:
What would you do? Where would you go?

And the answer would be:

depends on where i am and what i have. They've lived 200 yrs in a shelter, so it must be one considerably larger than the ones i've seen created back in the 60s because they'd have had to have hydroponics or some such method of growing plants down there and they'd have had to bring enough protein (animals, unless they all wanted to be vegans.) The plants, in large enough quantities may have been enough to create enough oxygen for the humans and animals--tho the above-ground biospheres in the southwest weren't able to do this self-contained thing.

At any rate, people would have a self-contained ecosystem, fairly safe, and certainly war free (one would hope.) They'd have food and safety in those caves; they wouldn't wander far from that, and at the same time, they wouldn't want to advertise their presence to any above-ground societies (living in hardship and therefore very dangerous to this group, i'd think.) So they wouldn't want a large, open presence near their cave-opening(s).

If this were a small enough group of humans that their gene pool is thinning, they may be forced out to find new breeding partners (or risk the eventual demise of the human race.) They'd have to be careful what they were breeding *with,* tho. :) 200 yrs would mean, on average, only 10 generations (counting in 20-yr increments.) And they'd have had to control their breeding in the caves, since they would have a finite amount of air, food, and water to live on, in there. That may be what forces 'em out into the open. :)

In any case, i'd want to stay close to my safety (the caves have kept me alive my whole life) and i'd want to see if there were anything i could use to empower my own society from the above-ground world. Depending on how this society's laws/moral developed (they didn't, after all, emerge at any time to *help* aboveground survivors, so they can't think much of them) I'd be willing to pillage for the wine and fine art. :) There may be people among your group who fit *any* criteria you wish--altruists, itchy-footed explorers, loners, conquerors, mad scientists a la mengela. That's the fun part of this kind of piece, imho--having all those characters explore the above-world with their disperate agendas. :)

And there are tons of reasons why nukes are still relevant-what with our War On Terror still going strong. Iran and Korea have nukes and are dying to use 'em, and we do, too and would, too. Not to mention the way that Pakistan and India are always threatening to bomb each other. Whee!
 

JermanD

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after reading your posts: I am planning on reading all of those wonderful sources you guys have supplied me with! Thanks a lot!!!
Anyway, why are you writing a post-Apocalyptical story in the 'oughts? That was a fifties and sixties fixation. Nostalgia, perhaps?
Well, it sounded interesting is the short reason haha :)
 

Tnonk

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Post apocalyptic fiction is my favorite genre (it is a genre, isn't it?)
My unpublished novel in my sig is a post apocalyptic novel.
I'm not really sure of the answers that you need but is it necessary that they emerge in the radioactive rubble? I gave my characters an emergency escape tunnel in case the radiation was too high
Many writers have done many things with the nuclear scenario and who's to say whats right or wrong? I know you want to get some of the technical aspects close, but in the end it's your story. After 189 years, I would think that you can make your world whatever you really want to. That's the fun part for me in this genre.
Surviving in a shelter for 189 years would really be a tough gig, I would imagine, for a variety of reasons. I had my characters in cryo for 200 years so I didn't have to deal with that. My characters had to deal with the fact that the survey team reset the controls for the cryo from 2 years to 200. They are people of the pre apocalyptic world thrust deep into the post apocalyptic world, with everyone & everything they've ever know dead & gone. And THEY thought they were only 'asleep' for two years. Yeh, they had to deal with a bit of shock.
Where do they go? Out - out to survive, find a home, escape the shelter. Or like I did - into the village left & prepared by the survey team who have waited patiently for the 'Elders' to return. Imagine the effects on the world around them living in the stone age (or so) and They have the tecnology of the before times. I imagine an M16 could make a huge impression on a bunch of mutated cityfolk - once demonstarted of course.
Have you read any post apocalyptic works? There's quite a few out there, try googling 'post apaocalyptic science fiction' and check it out.
Sorry if I've highjacked, but I love this stuff!

Adrian
 

Renee Collins

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Post apocalyptic fiction is my favorite genre (it is a genre, isn't it?)
My unpublished novel in my sig is a post apocalyptic novel.
I'm not really sure of the answers that you need but is it necessary that they emerge in the radioactive rubble? I gave my characters an emergency escape tunnel in case the radiation was too high
Many writers have done many things with the nuclear scenario and who's to say whats right or wrong? I know you want to get some of the technical aspects close, but in the end it's your story. After 189 years, I would think that you can make your world whatever you really want to. That's the fun part for me in this genre.
Surviving in a shelter for 189 years would really be a tough gig, I would imagine, for a variety of reasons. I had my characters in cryo for 200 years so I didn't have to deal with that. My characters had to deal with the fact that the survey team reset the controls for the cryo from 2 years to 200. They are people of the pre apocalyptic world thrust deep into the post apocalyptic world, with everyone & everything they've ever know dead & gone. And THEY thought they were only 'asleep' for two years. Yeh, they had to deal with a bit of shock.
Where do they go? Out - out to survive, find a home, escape the shelter. Or like I did - into the village left & prepared by the survey team who have waited patiently for the 'Elders' to return. Imagine the effects on the world around them living in the stone age (or so) and They have the tecnology of the before times. I imagine an M16 could make a huge impression on a bunch of mutated cityfolk - once demonstarted of course.
Have you read any post apocalyptic works? There's quite a few out there, try googling 'post apaocalyptic science fiction' and check it out.
Sorry if I've highjacked, but I love this stuff!

Adrian

Your story sounds pretty neat! I love post apocalyptic too. :)
 

cathyfreeze

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Oh, i don't think post-apocolypic's out of style, ever. Like any subgenre, it fades a bit and needs spiffing up every now and then. :)

Cormac McCarthy had one on the best seller list for quite a while, just recently, and a movie of his novel's coming out (prolly next year.) And when i looked for 'em on amazon.com, there are over 8 pages of post-ap novels. ;)

I don't care for the grimth, grimth, gritty-reality ones, much--prefer a heavy spec element in all my fiction and at least hopeful ending. I've got one in progress right now, myself. One of those act of God ones--not a nuke-happy war kind. More like 'Night of the Comet' without the zombies but with giant spider-like aliens from another dimension. :)
 

cathyfreeze

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Why is it always giant spiders? Why can't it be giant koalas, or giant walruses?

caw

Heh. Would you read serious fiction with a giant koala antagonist? I wouldn't.

Besides, i've always wanted to write about giant spiders. Now's my chance. :D
 

MattW

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Why is it always giant spiders? Why can't it be giant koalas, or giant walruses?

caw
The webcomic Schlock Mercenary has an alien Koala species...one of which has achieved near god-live intelligence.
 

cathyfreeze

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Believe it or not our house came with a concrete room in the basement - weird. But cool...and useful in a nuclear war, I guess. :e2cry:

Ah. You know where to go stay on the night when the Comet comes. :)

Watch for those zombies the next day, though. The good news is you get to hook up with Robert Beltran. Without the cool face tatoos, but you can't have everything.

cat
 

Willowmound

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What would you do post acpocolypse? Imagine you were coming out of a fallout shelter say...189 years after the bombs dropped, and were seeing everything for the first time and just had some old maps from before "the war" to help you out. What would you do? Where would you go?

I'd be sure to wear my PipBoy. The model 3000 might be a bit heavier than the newer ones, but it's sturdy.
 

Nivarion

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200 Years is a bit long for hiding in a fall out shelter. Radiation that is really dangerous to humans is in a critical state which it can't sustain for long. I think Luhn said something about the hotter it is the quicker it cools.

Any way, the Trinity sight and Hiroshima and Nagasaki are all down to normal radiation levels just a short sixty years after, and people were rebuilding well on their way rebuilding the city just 4 years after the bombing.

Honestly, I don't think survivors would be in there for more than a year. It would be hard to get that many supplies in there anyways.
 
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