Please Define "Cyber-Punk"

ColoradoMom · Aug 3, 2009

I know what it means, I have the classics on my shelf and I've read them all twice. But please give me more if you have it.

For one - does it have to be dystopian?
i.e. Does the world have to go to shit and everyone is miserable? Or can the world be shit but everyone is satisfied?
Is it better to have a female or male main character?
Is there a "replacement genre" for Cyper Punk yet?
Is anyone writing this stuff anymore?
At what point does a story stop being cyber punk and just become science fiction?

If you had to list 3 things that a cyber punk novel must have what would they be?

I'd say -
Some sort of "cyborg" component
A city/urban setting with neon and asian influence
Rain or at the very least - gloomy

Thanks in advance!

J. Anne

AceTachyon · Aug 3, 2009

I write it, although I'd called my take on it as "cyberpunk action-adventure." Or even "cyberpunk lite."

I define "cyberpunk" as stories taking place in a dystopian near-future urban setting with a focus on IT/computers, technology (with some transhumanism), and the seedy underside of urban life.

Mind you that's my definition based on the stories I've read and model from and what I write. Others may have different definitions.

Kitty Pryde · Aug 3, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
If you had to list 3 things that a cyber punk novel must have what would they be?

I'd say -
Some sort of "cyborg" component
A city/urban setting with neon and asian influence
Rain or at the very least - gloomy

Well, I'd politely disagree. You need 1. Cyber and 2. Punk.

Cyber=advanced computer technology (or robots/AI I guess)
Punk=an angry underclass, a hacker, the 'little guy' going up against monolithic government/corporation/organized crime-the yucky/noir/seedy setting plays into this part as well.

This is useful for definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk

Without cyber or without punk, it's not cyberpunk! Some 'replacement genres' are steampunk and biopunk (steam tech and advanced biotech, respectively.) Here is a somewhat ridonkulous list of other ***-Punk genres, some more dubious than others) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_derivatives

I don't think it needs to be dystopian, but there does need to be at least one group of people who are very unhappy with life. The Matrix is cyberpunk-ish, and most of the people are happy!

Liosse de Velishaf · Aug 3, 2009

We've got "post-Cyberpunk" now, which is basically the same,, except it's not dystopian.

Character gender is really only important in terms of target market. I have no problems with female leads, and several of my own (unpublished naturally) cyberpunkish works include them.

The line between cyberpunk and "mainstream" sf is very thin, as is often the case in genres with a large number of subgenres. There are plenty of sub-genres of sf that use cyberpuk tropes. They are often space opera or some -punk derivative. Singularity novels share a lot with cyberpunk, and obviously post-CP does as well. Steampunk, biopunk and mythpunk are other descendants, though they don't really qualify as "replacement" genres like the first two.

I'd say that KP's combination of "cyber-" and "-punk" pretty much defines the genre. Most are written in urban settings, to add a third common ingredient.

I think that about covers your questions.

ColoradoMom · Aug 3, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
Cyber=advanced computer technology (or robots/AI I guess)
Punk=an angry underclass, a hacker, the 'little guy' going up against monolithic government/corporation/organized crime-the yucky/noir/seedy setting plays into this part as well.

Yes, I totally got the cyber and punk parts as far as story and character goes, it is the scene more than anything that bothers me.

And do you think the "hacker" thing is over - I mean does anyone think it is dated? I mean, geesh - my 12 year old is "hacking" games and crap. How special does that make people anymore?

This is one thing that drives me crazy about original CP, so dated with the brand names and stuff. I would love to see an updated version of this with the gear and etc.

I do like the "little guy" angle though - that is one way to look at it that I hadn't been.

I am thinking that the whole "humanity" struggle is also a prereq. Any ideas on this?

Salis · Aug 3, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
Yes, I totally got the cyber and punk parts as far as story and character goes, it is the scene more than anything that bothers me.

And do you think the "hacker" thing is over - I mean does anyone think it is dated? I mean, geesh - my 12 year old is "hacking" games and crap. How special does that make people anymore?

This is one thing that drives me crazy about original CP, so dated with the brand names and stuff. I would love to see an updated version of this with the gear and etc.

I do like the "little guy" angle though - that is one way to look at it that I hadn't been.

I am thinking that the whole "humanity" struggle is also a prereq. Any ideas on this?

Uh, hacking mainframes & shit (and not getting caught) is actually really hard. I don't see how it's outdated. If anything, doing it well should be even more impressive/relevant now since the technology has come a lot further to where we can imagine it better.

ColoradoMom · Aug 3, 2009

Salis said:
Uh, hacking mainframes & shit (and not getting caught) is actually really hard. I don't see how it's outdated. If anything, doing it well should be even more impressive/relevant now since the technology has come a lot further to where we can imagine it better.

Well, maybe I should have said - "Been there done that" rather than outdated. I don't see as an attention getter-original idea, if ya know what I mean. At any rate - I won't be going that route as an "objective" for the main character, perhaps as something that is taken for granted, but not an objective.

"Hacking" was cool before reality set in, IMO, but now it just pisses people off.

Nivarion · Aug 3, 2009

Yeah, hacking games is easy. I hacked one of my games to change the AI's names to stuff like I.C. Weiner and Semor Butes.

Hacking a mainframe or server can be hard. To get through its firewall you have to get a code or root kit inside of the mainframe.

A common way of doing this is to put the code on an auto run sequence and install it to a thumb drive. accidentally drop the drive inside the building or what ever. Some curious employee hopefully picks it up and puts it in their computer to find out who it belongs to.

Anyway. Hacking is hard against someone who is prepared for it.

Shoeless · Aug 3, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
"Hacking" was cool before reality set in, IMO, but now it just pisses people off.

Hacking has always pissed people off. It's just that before, the only people that had systems worth hacking were big companies with networks and mainframe/mini/microcomputer arrays. Now that practically everyone has a computer or some kind of network access, they're just as vulnerable.

AceTachyon · Aug 3, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
And do you think the "hacker" thing is over - I mean does anyone think it is dated? I mean, geesh - my 12 year old is "hacking" games and crap. How special does that make people anymore?

ColoradoMom said:
Well, maybe I should have said - "Been there done that" rather than outdated. I don't see as an attention getter-original idea, if ya know what I mean. At any rate - I won't be going that route as an "objective" for the main character, perhaps as something that is taken for granted, but not an objective.

"Hacking" was cool before reality set in, IMO, but now it just pisses people off.

I think the hacker sub-culture is alive and well, (especially if the magazine 2600 Quarterly is any indication--it's been going strong since '87).

And I believe, as pointed out, that cyberpunk hackers are those folks who use their tech skills to pry information from the guarded networks of governments and the megacorporations.

Salis · Aug 3, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
Well, maybe I should have said - "Been there done that" rather than outdated. I don't see as an attention getter-original idea, if ya know what I mean. At any rate - I won't be going that route as an "objective" for the main character, perhaps as something that is taken for granted, but not an objective.

"Hacking" was cool before reality set in, IMO, but now it just pisses people off.

Well, I think it just makes it even more credible. If you're dealing with a futuristic world where everything is online (and by looking at the modern economy, you can definitely see a precedent for that), hacking will be big business, and a big deal.

Actually, cyber terrorism is one of the biggest issues with national security right now (it's surprisingly easy to fuck with electronic infrastructure, which ties into everything infrastructure--power, water, you name it).

Ruv Draba · Aug 4, 2009

Cyberpunk is classically "high tech and low life." It's actually kissing cousins with Space Opera -- a fantasy genre using the tropes of SF, and steeped in film noir moods.

Dark, hostile, amoral environments give us more sympathy for Cyberpunk's dark, hostile, amoral characters which is why we see them most often in dystopias or decadent utopias with ugly underbellies.

The high tech that works best with Cyberpunk is that which commoditises life. Think physical, psychological, social commoditisation: Commoditised limbs, organs, faces, emotions, memories, psyches, attitudes, beliefs, identities, relationships, genders, ages, tribes, aptitudes, experiences, reputations, opportunities, crimes, punishments, jobs, roles, histories, destinies. The tech itself is secondary -- whether it's advanced cybernetics, nanotech, biotech -- that's all just setting. The effect is commoditisation, and it's that which underpins the conflicts that lead to plot.

Hacking computers is boring? So don't use computers. In fact, work out the tech last. Instead, think about how you'd like to mess with the characters physically, psychologically and socially; how you want to commoditise their facets and parts. Then work out what tech you'd like achieve that. The best Cyberpunk is a thriller -- a physical, mental and social meat-grinder in which characters must sacrifice the unthinkable to prevent the unconscionable. That's where your core ideas should lie. Gibson never understood a thing about computing -- he just borrowed terms and largely made up what they meant. But he knew how to write a fantasy techno-thriller and push the stakes beyond his readers' own imaginations. That's the key to succeeding, I think.

ColoradoMom · Aug 4, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
Cyberpunk is classically "high tech and low life." It's actually kissing cousins with Space Opera -- a fantasy genre using the tropes of SF, and steeped in film noir moods.

Dark, hostile, amoral environments give us more sympathy for Cyberpunk's dark, hostile, amoral characters which is why we see them most often in dystopias or decadent utopias with ugly underbellies.

The high tech that works best with Cyberpunk is that which commoditises life. Think physical, psychological, social commoditisation: Commoditised limbs, organs, faces, emotions, memories, psyches, attitudes, beliefs, identities, relationships, genders, ages, tribes, aptitudes, experiences, reputations, opportunities, crimes, punishments, jobs, roles, histories, destinies. The tech itself is secondary -- whether it's advanced cybernetics, nanotech, biotech -- that's all just setting. The effect is commoditisation, and it's that which underpins the conflicts that lead to plot.

Hacking computers is boring? So don't use computers. In fact, work out the tech last. Instead, think about how you'd like to mess with the characters physically, psychologically and socially; how you want to commoditise their facets and parts. Then work out what tech you'd like achieve that. The best Cyberpunk is a thriller -- a physical, mental and social meat-grinder in which characters must sacrifice the unthinkable to prevent the unconscionable. That's where your core ideas should lie. Gibson never understood a thing about computing -- he just borrowed terms and largely made up what they meant. But he knew how to write a fantasy techno-thriller and push the stakes beyond his readers' own imaginations. That's the key to succeeding, I think.

Yes, thank you! Your post was exactly what I was looking for.

This part "The effect is commoditisation, and it's that which underpins the conflicts that lead to plot." was especially insightful and I will be building on that suggestion.

Shoeless · Aug 4, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
Gibson never understood a thing about computing -- he just borrowed terms and largely made up what they meant. But he knew how to write a fantasy techno-thriller and push the stakes beyond his readers' own imaginations. That's the key to succeeding, I think.

Although I'm still amazed at how a guy that didn't know much about computers sure had a profound influence on how the Geek/Nerd contingent that did know computers would want to move forward in developing the technology.

Ruv Draba · Aug 4, 2009

Shoeless said:
Although I'm still amazed at how a guy that didn't know much about computers sure had a profound influence on how the Geek/Nerd contingent that did know computers would want to move forward in developing the technology.

Geeks and nerds understand technical challenge very well, but can seldom articulate coolth or impact. Gibson caught those very well, but never really got his head around the technical challenge side.

It's perhaps a testimony to his vision that the geeks forgave him his technical solecisms.

CammyMayHunny · Aug 5, 2009

Please Define "Cyber-Punk"

I'd define it as that little twerp who lives across the alley behind me and is continuously bleating out a bunch of electro-industrial noise at all hours and looks like he got dressed in the middle of the night in a vampire's locker on crack.

But seriously, very interesting discussion. I'm a big fan of Gibson (actually I admire his writing skills even more than his formidable imagination).

I don't see why cyberpunk would have to be neon/Asian at all. Sterling's early work when the term was just getting started doesn't meet that description. And most of Gibson's work is not situated in Asia.

I don't see why there needs to be a "replacement genre". Cyberpunk is still alive, no? Yes? No?

AceTachyon · Aug 5, 2009

CammyMayHunny said:
I don't see why cyberpunk would have to be neon/Asian at all. Sterling's early work when the term was just getting started doesn't meet that description. And most of Gibson's work is not situated in Asia.

IMHO, I'm inclined to think the neon/Asian influence is probably due to Blade Runner. The depiction of near-future Los Angeles seems to be the visual bar set for a cyberpunk story.

Plus, doesn't Gibson sometimes refer to the best tech and/or augmentation coming from Chiba? And wasn't the Ono-Sendai that one of the console cowboys use (I think it was Case) a topline cyberdeck?

I don't see why there needs to be a "replacement genre". Cyberpunk is still alive, no? Yes? No?

I like to think so only because I'm writing stories in a cyberpunk world.

And isn't the Takeshi Kovacs novel by Richard Morgan (Altered Carbon) considered cyberpunk?

ColoradoMom · Aug 5, 2009

AceTachyon said:
Plus, doesn't Gibson sometimes refer to the best tech and/or augmentation coming from Chiba? And wasn't the Ono-Sendai that one of the console cowboys use (I think it was Case) a topline cyberdeck?

"The Japanese had already forgotten more neurosurgery than the Chinese had ever known. The black clinics of Chiba were cutting edge..."

Ono-Sendai...LOL...you have a good memory. It was Count Zero (aka Bobby Newmark) who had it.

AceTachyon · Aug 5, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
Ono-Sendai...LOL...you have a good memory. It was Count Zero (aka Bobby Newmark) who had it.

Count Zero. Thank you.

Which reminds me--I should re-read that sucker. On the TBR pile it goes...

Shoeless · Aug 5, 2009

The first mention of the Ono-Sendai Cyberspace VII was in Neuromancer, I think. It was the deck that Case received when he got back into the hacking game.

But yeah, throughout the Sprawl trilogy Gibson inserts random Japanese/Asian elements here and there to show the dominance Asia has over the Sprawl economy. Something he took a bit further in the bridge trilogy although by that point he'd switched over to Singapore specifically, something I found insanely funny.

geardrops · Aug 5, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
"Hacking" was cool before reality set in, IMO, but now it just pisses people off.

Shoeless said:
Hacking has always pissed people off.

:: flails about over the term hacker :: Man. I hate how the media has twisted that word.

<soapbox>

Hackers, and hacks, aren't always about breaking into ur maneframez and bringing down all IPs simultaneously. I am part of a thriving community of hackers.

What do they do? They write open software, or modify existing software, to promote communication, to add features they want in software they have, because they can. They're working within NASA to bring the information that NASA collects into the public sphere, to promote citizen science. They're working in cloud computing. Hell, they do fun things like tweak Google Earth to use the terrain maps from Mars. They twist software into doing things it didn't do before, simply because they can.

Beyond that, the term can be applied to hardware, to anything really. Hacking something together, pulling random pieces together to make stuff work and to make it work well. It's got a strong vein of "damn the man" but that doesn't always resolve itself into trying to bring the man down, merely finding your own way of doing things.

Moreover, the hackers who do attempt to break into machines? Not all of them are teh eebil. There's the term White Hat Hacker, people who find security flaws and then alert the potential victims quietly, allowing them to resolve the vulnerability.

</soapbox>

Sorry. I can get going sometimes

AceTachyon · Aug 5, 2009

Shoeless said:
The first mention of the Ono-Sendai Cyberspace VII was in Neuromancer, I think. It was the deck that Case received when he got back into the hacking game.

Ah--so I had it originally. Case had the Ono-Sendai.

Still, Count Zero will be re-read. And probably Neuromancer.

Right now I dip into Burning Chrome here and there to absorb style, color, and ambiance for my yarns. Also a heaping helping dip at CP2020 and Shadowrun rules and sourcebooks.

Yes, I freely borrow and adapt.

ColoradoMom · Aug 5, 2009

dempsey said:
:: flails about over the term hacker :: Man. I hate how the media has twisted that word.

<soapbox>

Hackers, and hacks, aren't always about breaking into ur maneframez and bringing down all IPs simultaneously. I am part of a thriving community of hackers.

What do they do? They write open software, or modify existing software, to promote communication, to add features they want in software they have, because they can. They're working within NASA to bring the information that NASA collects into the public sphere, to promote citizen science. They're working in cloud computing. Hell, they do fun things like tweak Google Earth to use the terrain maps from Mars. They twist software into doing things it didn't do before, simply because they can.

Beyond that, the term can be applied to hardware, to anything really. Hacking something together, pulling random pieces together to make stuff work and to make it work well. It's got a strong vein of "damn the man" but that doesn't always resolve itself into trying to bring the man down, merely finding your own way of doing things.

Moreover, the hackers who do attempt to break into machines? Not all of them are teh eebil. There's the term White Hat Hacker, people who find security flaws and then alert the potential victims quietly, allowing them to resolve the vulnerability.

</soapbox>

Sorry. I can get going sometimes

No need to apologize - it is good to hear a personal point of view form someone who knows!

ColoradoMom · Aug 5, 2009

AceTachyon said:
Count Zero. Thank you.

No thank YOU!

How weird is this - I have been racking my brain and searching my bookshelves for Count Zero (only I couldn't remember the name of the book - only the art dealer girl and the part about the deck) and then you come along and type - Ono Sendai!

It was a V-8 moment.

geardrops · Aug 5, 2009

ColoradoMom said:
No need to apologize - it is good to hear a personal point of view form someone who knows!

Doesn't help that I work in infosec, and I'm getting my MS in engineering where my focus is networks/infosec.

And yet, I don't think I'd ever write cyberpunk, or computer-driven scifi

Ah, well.

Please Define "Cyber-Punk"

ColoradoMom

AceTachyon

Odd person

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Liosse de Velishaf

ColoradoMom

Salis

You Lie!

ColoradoMom

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

Shoeless

AceTachyon

Odd person

Salis

You Lie!

Ruv Draba

ColoradoMom

Shoeless

Ruv Draba

CammyMayHunny

AceTachyon

Odd person

ColoradoMom

AceTachyon

Odd person

Shoeless

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job

AceTachyon

Odd person

ColoradoMom

ColoradoMom

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job