Trilogy Submission

As an unknown writer, your best bet is always going to be presenting it as "a standalone novel with series potential." It's very, very hard to gain agent interest in a trilogy, because it's very, very hard for the agent to sell a trilogy by an unknown to an editor.

Although, that said--an agent WILL attempt to sell a two-book deal for a debut author, just to give the first book a second chance at gaining an audience. The second book might or might not wind up being the sequel (depending on how sales of the first one go) but if they're already written, there's a better than average chance you'll wind up with at least the first sequel on the shelf.

I agree, though, that you MUST sell the first one as a stand-alone. Once that one is accepted for representation and/or publication you can bring up the others. But the first one has to stand alone in the same way that "Star Wars" had to. It was part of a bigger world, and war, but even if "Empire Strikes" had never seen the light of day, the battle was won.

Sell the first one.

The agent will say, "Do you happen to have anything else?"

You will say, "As a matter of fact ...."

Happy ending all the way around.

Meanwhile, sell this book as if it were your only one.

James D. Macdonald said:

Sell the first one.

The agent will say, "Do you happen to have anything else?"

You will say, "As a matter of fact ...."

Happy ending all the way around.

Meanwhile, sell this book as if it were your only one.

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What if they happen to ask if I have a sequel before I actually sell the first novel, am I allowed to lie with nonchalance?

James D. Macdonald said:

Sell the first one.

The agent will say, "Do you happen to have anything else?"

You will say, "As a matter of fact ...."

Happy ending all the way around.

Meanwhile, sell this book as if it were your only one.

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I actually care so much about my trilogy, I'm NOT submitting it anywhere.

I'm working on a different book altogether because I think its more saleable as an unknown author. If its a success, I'll pitch the trilogy.

JJM said:

What if they happen to ask if I have a sequel before I actually sell the first novel, am I allowed to lie with nonchalance?

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No. What you do is write a synopsis for the sequel and offer to send them that, if they express interest.

Doh, I completely mis-read the question. If you don't have the sequel written, you provide a synopsis. If you do have the sequel at hand, you say, "As a matter of fact, I do have one."

JJM said:

What if they happen to ask if I have a sequel before I actually sell the first novel, am I allowed to lie with nonchalance?

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Why would you want to lie?

Say, "Yes, as it happens...."

JJM said:

What if they happen to ask if I have a sequel before I actually sell the first novel, am I allowed to lie with nonchalance?

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I think you should punch them right in the balls, then sit back, cross your arms and refuse to explain yourself.

As a debut author who sold a trilogy...

Chaos Titian was on the money, but it is possible to sell your trilogy first time at bat. Your best bet is to make sure the book stands alone, but can continue with ever-increasing stakes. (you said yours stands alone, so that's good). Have the synopsis for the next two books ready, because editors will want to see it if they're interested in the book. Even an agent might want to see it at some point. (this would come if you get an offer of representation).

Most important thing: Knock everyone's socks off with that first book.

If the book is amazing, you stand a better chance at selling all three.

My agent worked on getting me a two-book deal, and in the end, the editor offered three because "it's a trilogy, right?" Had I not had a trilogy, I wouldn't have sold three books. I imagine this is uncommon though, (even my agent was surprised), so don't assume it will happen, but it certainly can happen.

Danthia said:

As a debut author who sold a trilogy...

Chaos Titian was on the money, but it is possible to sell your trilogy first time at bat. Your best bet is to make sure the book stands alone, but can continue with ever-increasing stakes. (you said yours stands alone, so that's good). Have the synopsis for the next two books ready, because editors will want to see it if they're interested in the book. Even an agent might want to see it at some point. (this would come if you get an offer of representation).

Most important thing: Knock everyone's socks off with that first book.

If the book is amazing, you stand a better chance at selling all three.

My agent worked on getting me a two-book deal, and in the end, the editor offered three because "it's a trilogy, right?" Had I not had a trilogy, I wouldn't have sold three books. I imagine this is uncommon though, (even my agent was surprised), so don't assume it will happen, but it certainly can happen.

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Man, that is awesome. You're living out a dream right there.

I am curious, and you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable. Was your advance for all three books pretty good?

If I was a debut author ,I would probably hold off on a trilogy for monetary reasons as well.

If my first book is going to get me a 5K advance, I would want to see what the response was to that book. If there was an success to the first book, I would assume the next book would be worth quite a bit more.

If I sold my first three books at the same time, I'd expect a 15K advance, which might seem paltry in the grand scheme of things.

Plus I'd want to stagger the release.

Danthia said:

I imagine this is uncommon though, (even my agent was surprised), so don't assume it will happen, but it certainly can happen.

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I'm beginning to think it happens more often than we suspect. Nearly all my writer friends sold trilogies for their first sale. So did I.

eqb said:

I'm beginning to think it happens more often than we suspect. Nearly all my writer friends sold trilogies for their first sale. So did I.

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Would you mind addressing the question I posed to the other person as this thread is very relevant to my interests as a fellow trilogy writer.

lucidzfl said:

If my first book is going to get me a 5K advance, I would want to see what the response was to that book. If there was an success to the first book, I would assume the next book would be worth quite a bit more.

If I sold my first three books at the same time, I'd expect a 15K advance, which might seem paltry in the grand scheme of things.

Plus I'd want to stagger the release.

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Unfortunately, a lot of the things you're saying here are out of an author's control. Your agent could try to negotiate them for you, but there is less room to negotiate for an unknown author than for one with an established track record.

The only way to see the response to the first book (as you say) is to sign a single-book contract. And, at least for genre fiction, two and three book deals are pretty standard. So there's no real way to see how the first sells and get more for book two--timing plays a huge part in this, too. It can take anywhere from a year to two years from contract before a book hits the marketplace. Which means, going by your idea of waiting, book two wouldn't come out for one and a half to two years after the first. And in genre fic, that's a terrible way to build momentum for an author. Releases generally run six months to a year between for any given author.

I'm not sure, too, if you quite understand how advances work. If your contracted advance for each book is $5k, then yes, the total advance for three books is $15k. Although you still get that money broken up into multiple payments, so you wouldn't get $15k up front regardless.

And how the books are released is up to the publishing house that buys them. I've seen some trilogies released recently in consecutive months, and it's a good way to build an audience for a new author. I've also seen other trilogies released over three years. It all depends on who buys it, but it probably won't be your decision.

ChaosTitan said:

Unfortunately, a lot of the things you're saying here are out of an author's control. Your agent could try to negotiate them for you, but there is less room to negotiate for an unknown author than for one with an established track record.

The only way to see the response to the first book (as you say) is to sign a single-book contract. And, at least for genre fiction, two and three book deals are pretty standard. So there's no real way to see how the first sells and get more for book two--timing plays a huge part in this, too. It can take anywhere from a year to two years from contract before a book hits the marketplace. Which means, going by your idea of waiting, book two wouldn't come out for one and a half to two years after the first. And in genre fic, that's a terrible way to build momentum for an author. Releases generally run six months to a year between for any given author.

I'm not sure, too, if you quite understand how advances work. If your contracted advance for each book is $5k, then yes, the total advance for three books is $15k. Although you still get that money broken up into multiple payments, so you wouldn't get $15k up front regardless.

And how the books are released is up to the publishing house that buys them. I've seen some trilogies released recently in consecutive months, and it's a good way to build an audience for a new author. I've also seen other trilogies released over three years. It all depends on who buys it, but it probably won't be your decision.

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Great answer. Thanks. I guess if someone got a 2-3 book deal, would it behoove them to do the trilogy as part of that deal, or provide them with fiction separate from the trilogy? Perhaps the trilogy is what will have all the demand.

I guess its all speculation.

lucidzfl said:

Great answer. Thanks. I guess if someone got a 2-3 book deal, would it behoove them to do the trilogy as part of that deal, or provide them with fiction separate from the trilogy? Perhaps the trilogy is what will have all the demand.

I guess its all speculation.

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It's also something to discuss with your agent, when it comes time to submit. It's quite possible an agent will feel strongly enough about both the trilogy and the market to submit it as a trilogy.

Cart before the horse, though. Concentrate on wooing that agent first.

ChaosTitan said:

It's also something to discuss with your agent, when it comes time to submit. It's quite possible an agent will feel strongly enough about both the trilogy and the market to submit it as a trilogy.

Cart before the horse, though. Concentrate on wooing that agent first.

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Oh I'm way far away from even submitting. I'm just now getting around to beta'ing.

I've shelved the trilogy for now and am working on completeing and editing my current draft of a one off book.

52greg said:

Thanks for all the replies. This may or may not be important, but it could be I used the term "trilogy" somewhat loosely. In fact, they are the first three novels in what I hope will be a mystery series. These three, however, are closely related in theme, setting, and time, and they are sequential in time, although each could be understood without reading the other two. They do not, however, when taken together, tell some epic story.

As I understand it, publishers tend to shy from giving unknown writers long term commitments partly because they can't be sure a writer with no record will be able to produce a second novel, and a third, and a fourth. Publishers don't want to get stuck with duds. Fair enough-- but wouldn't presenting three solid novels off the bat (assuming all three are solid) counter the fear that the author may only have one novel in him or her?

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Well I will not answer since I do not know, but I would personally love to find an agent who's largest concern was whether or not I could keep cranking out content.

I'd think almost any agent would be glad to sign a prolific writer, provided the stories are great. Most of the agents I've met say that their primary concern is that they have to love the story in order to be able to sell it to a publisher.

Publishers want to sign several books at once, on the grounds that if the first book takes off they'll be getting the author's next books cheap, while if the first book flops they aren't out a whole lot.

Two and three book deals aren't uncommon. (Although true trilogies are.)

lucidzfl said:

I am curious, and you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable. Was your advance for all three books pretty good?

If I was a debut author ,I would probably hold off on a trilogy for monetary reasons as well.

If my first book is going to get me a 5K advance, I would want to see what the response was to that book. If there was an success to the first book, I would assume the next book would be worth quite a bit more.

If I sold my first three books at the same time, I'd expect a 15K advance, which might seem paltry in the grand scheme of things.

Plus I'd want to stagger the release.

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It was six figures (total, for all three books). Publisher's Marketplace noted it as a "very good deal."

There are a few things to remember though. Big advances are awesome, but if the book doesn't earn out or make the publisher money, it can kill a career. A smaller advance can be good too, as there's less risk that you'll be a flop. There are pros and cons to both sides.

You also keep getting royalties on your book once you earn out your advance. So if your book does well, you make the same money, just on the back end instead of the front. And you're in a better negotiating position for your next book.

Example:

For easy math, lets say your royalties are $1.00 per book.

Book one gets a $5K advance, with a 10K book print run. It sells 9,000 books. You earn out your $5K advance (they publisher keeps the first $5K), then make $4K royalties. That's a huge sell through (the amount of books you sell at a given store.)

Book two gets a $100K advance, and a print run of 75K books. It sells 20K. You get your advance, but no additional royalties and the publisher is out money. The book is a flop.

When both these authors send it their next book, author one is a much better prospect than author two, even though author two sold more books. But they under performed as expected, so it's a loss, even though they sold more books.

About the only thing you have control over as an author is how well you write your book. Once it's sold, the publisher has control, and they'll do what they think will be best for the book. They pick the release (mine are in the fall for 2009, 2010, and 2011), they choose the cover, they might even change the title. (they did mine).

There are so many variables and so much of it is out of both the author's and publisher's hands. In the end, it's the consumer who has all the power. If they love a book they'll buy it. If not, they won't. Publishing just works to keep up with what the consumer does.

It's a crazy business, but I think all creative industries are That fine line between genius and insanity I think. .

eqb said:

I'm beginning to think it happens more often than we suspect. Nearly all my writer friends sold trilogies for their first sale. So did I.

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That's good to hear!