Is good prose nothing more than an assload of commas?

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Ok, I got your attention. I have been looking at some of the top 100 literary novel openers ever.

Aside from the large amount of first person openings, I've noticed some unbelievably long sentences, punctuated entirely by commas.

At this point I realize just how many of these sentences, had I written, might be scoffed at by people analyzing the book for proper grammar and literary flow. Yet, they work.

In the last years of the Seventeenth Century there was to be found among the fops and fools of the London coffee-houses one rangy, gangling flitch called Ebenezer Cooke, more ambitious than talented, and yet more talented than prudent, who, like his friends-in-folly, all of whom were supposed to be educating at Oxford or Cambridge, had found the sound of Mother English more fun to game with than her sense to labor over, and so rather than applying himself to the pains of scholarship, had learned the knack of versifying, and ground out quires of couplets after the fashion of the day, afroth with Joves and Jupiters, aclang with jarring rhymes, and string-taut with similes stretched to the snapping-point.

So I ask, is this kind of thing acceptable only when you're an established writer? Or do we sometimes take literary "rules" too seriously?

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 30, 2009

My eyes glazed over halfway through the excerpt.

But then, it sounds like you're talking about literary novels, and most of those make my eyes glaze over. I'm just a dumb genre writer.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Chasing the Horizon said:
My eyes glazed over halfway through the excerpt.

But then, it sounds like you're talking about literary novels, and most of those make my eyes glaze over. I'm just a dumb genre writer.

Thats an interesting point. Is there some set of guidelines for writing genre vs literary?

The Lonely One · Jul 30, 2009

I think sentence length is an issue of rhythm, pacing, style, and not one of rules. I know a lot of people get caught up on how many words are in a sentence, and more often then not short sentences can pack a lot of punch. But I still think there are places where long sentences work well. It's like the whole don't use adverbs thing. Sometimes it's appropriate for the sentence based on all the other elements I've noted.

IMO the sentence you've provided as an example is clear in meaning, fast-paced in an almost hoppy, rhythmic way and strong.

It's admirable to be able to pull off a sentence like that.

Persephone · Jul 30, 2009

When I read it, I thought, mmm, that sounds interesting, but very long-winded. But as a writer, I cringed. I wouldn't have written it without breaking up the paragraph. I think you have a point - that maybe, if you're established, you get away with it. If not, then it's heading towards the pile marked 'Bin'.

Out of interest, where is the excerpt from? It sounds very poetic.

blacbird · Jul 30, 2009

lucidzfl said:
Ok, I got your attention. I have been looking at some of the top 100 literary novel openers ever.

1. The "top 100 literary novel openers" come from what list?

2. The example cited is from which novel, published when?

I might point out also that one of the most famous "literary novel openers" ever is from Herman Melville:

Call me Ishmael.

caw

Bartholomew · Jul 30, 2009

lucidzfl said:
Ok, I got your attention. I have been looking at some of the top 100 literary novel openers ever.

Aside from the large amount of first person openings, I've noticed some unbelievably long sentences, punctuated entirely by commas.

At this point I realize just how many of these sentences, had I written, might be scoffed at by people analyzing the book for proper grammar and literary flow. Yet, they work.

So I ask, is this kind of thing acceptable only when you're an established writer? Or do we sometimes take literary "rules" too seriously?

That's fine for an opener. If he's got one of those in every paragraph, though, only a really compelling idea is going to keep me on board.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

blacbird said:
1. The "top 100 literary novel openers" come from what list?

2. The example cited is from which novel, published when?

I might point out also that one of the most famous "literary novel openers" ever is from Herman Melville:

caw

I don't think this list is official or anyhting but its at: http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0934311.html

The excerpt is from The Sot-Weed Factor by John Barth, written in 1960. So a tad old, but not old school old.

Williebee · Jul 30, 2009

It's Barth, isn't it? And from a while ago. Which brings me to: I think the changes in literature over time has something to do with the winnowing use of commas.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Edit: Call me Ishamael is on the list too

blacbird · Jul 30, 2009

Barth is well-known for being deliberately wordy, almost parodical of 19th-Century fiction in style. Some people love his work, others hate it. I ain't too fond of it, myself. But he's enough of a stylistic iconoclast that to select his stuff as representative of "literary" fiction in general is pretty misdirected, methinks.

caw

blacbird · Jul 30, 2009

Good list, by the way. I bookmarked it. I also noted that, among these "literary" works are novels by Ray Bradbury and William Gibson.

caw

sunandshadow · Jul 30, 2009

My brain threw a stack overflow error when I tried to read that.

Fixed:

In the last years of the Seventeenth Century there was to be found among the fops and fools of the London coffee-houses one rangy, gangling flitch called Ebenezer Cooke. Cooke was more ambitious than talented, and ~~yet~~ more talented than prudent. ~~who~~ He, like his friends-in-folly, all of whom were supposed to be educating at Oxford or Cambridge, had found the sound of Mother English more fun to game with than her sense was to labor over. And so, rather than applying himself to the pains of scholarship, Cooke had learned the knack of versifying, and ground out quires of couplets after the fashion of the day, afroth with Joves and Jupiters, aclang with jarring rhymes, and string-taut with similes stretched to the snapping-point.

Kathleen42 · Jul 30, 2009

Bartholomew said:
That's fine for an opener. If he's got one of those in every paragraph, though, only a really compelling idea is going to keep me on board.

Agreed. Not my style but it's not wrong.

Kalyke · Jul 30, 2009

If you are young-ish, the style of writing has changed over the last 50 years or so. I can't stand the short choppy sentances and small 3 sentance paragraphs people write now. Paragraphs used to be about 4 to a page, and sometimes 2 to a page. Also you have to look at who the writing is for. Who is the audience. Literature often is written for people with a bit more education than others-- The sentance structure has a lot of dependant clauses and such. The education that Americans have gotten under no child left behind has really been sub standard, and the writing and reading style reflect that.

I'd also add that if anyone here could write like that, you've got no excuse for being here.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

sunandshadow said:
My brain threw a stack overflow error when I tried to read that.

Fixed:

See just imagine the success Barth would have enjoyed with you as his editor!

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 30, 2009

lucidzfl said:
Thats an interesting point. Is there some set of guidelines for writing genre vs literary?

I dunno about a whole set of guidelines, but they're certainly different creatures. Literary puts a lot of emphasis on the prose themselves, on being a true 'master' of the craft of writing. Genre is mostly about the appeal of the story itself. Lots of barely adequate writers have enjoyed great success in genre writing because they had a good story with gripping characters. I doubt they would've seen the same success (or any success at all) if they'd tried to write literary novels.

The Lonely One · Jul 30, 2009

No offense, but I like the writer's version better.

My brain threw a stack overflow error when I tried to read that.

Fixed:

CACTUSWENDY · Jul 30, 2009

There are some on this AW that write like that. As for my personal taste I am not into it very much. For me it must be some of the bare bones structure that I go for. Fluff and run on structure are for those that have the time and enjoy the slower walk through a book. IMHO. I want to run through a story. Full blast. (And I use to love books by James A. Michener and we know how long winded he was.)

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Chasing the Horizon said:
I dunno about a whole set of guidelines, but they're certainly different creatures. Literary puts a lot of emphasis on the prose themselves, on being a true 'master' of the craft of writing. Genre is mostly about the appeal of the story itself. Lots of barely adequate writers have enjoyed great success in genre writing because they had a good story with gripping characters. I doubt they would've seen the same success (or any success at all) if they'd tried to write literary novels.

Well, shit the bed.

What happens if your characters suck, your story is boring as an old napkin, and your prose has all the flow of a dried up river bed?

Guess I'd better become a screenwriter!

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 30, 2009

Use Her Name said:
If you are young-ish, the style of writing has changed over the last 50 years or so. I can't stand the short choppy sentances and small 3 sentance paragraphs people write now. Paragraphs used to be about 4 to a page, and sometimes 2 to a page. Also you have to look at who the writing is for. Who is the audience. Literature often is written for people with a bit more education than others-- The sentance structure has a lot of dependant clauses and such. The education that Americans have gotten under no child left behind has really been sub standard, and the writing and reading style reflect that.

I'd also add that if anyone here could write like that, you've got no excuse for being here.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with writing a simple, easy-to-read novel that you don't need a master's degree in English to understand.

Is spelling 'sentence' and 'dependent' with an 'e' a modern invention of my sub-par education?

The Lonely One · Jul 30, 2009

lucidzfl said:
Thats an interesting point. Is there some set of guidelines for writing genre vs literary?

I think there's a tendency to create this false dichotomy of literary=stuffy words and genre=story, screw the words.

Literary writers have stories to tell and some genre writers are damn good with words.

Maybe it leans the way of the dichotomy in most mainstream instances, but I don't know. I don't think there should be different guidelines of language, though. That seems ridiculous to me.

C.M.C. · Jul 30, 2009

Good prose is prose that gets the point across while not looking and sounding as though it was sloppily thrown together. It can be simple or ornate, but must at all times be well constructed. I prefer things slightly to the ornate side of the equation, but the number of people who idolize Hemingway shows that it isn't necessary to qualify as good prose. Richness doesn't come from complexity, but from execution.

blacbird · Jul 30, 2009

The Lonely One said:
Literary writers have stories to tell

Anthony Burgess
John Irving
Philip Roth
Barbara Kingsolver
John Updike
John Cheever
Cormac McCarthy
J. G. Ballard
Kurt Vonnegut
Pete Dexter
Gabriel Garcia Marquez
William Golding
Graham Greene
. . .

The Lonely One said:
and some genre writers are damn good with words.

John D. MacDonald
James M. Cain
Ray Bradbury
J. G. Ballard
Philip K. Dick
Rex Stout
Tony Hillerman
Graham Greene
Richard Matheson
John Le Carre
. . .

Note that J. G. Ballard and Graham Greene show up on both lists; some others could well do so.

Notice that Robert Ludlum and Dan Brown show up on neither.

caw

Williebee · Jul 30, 2009

Notice that Robert Ludlum and Dan Brown show up on neither.

Is good prose nothing more than an assload of commas?

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