Writing third person limited. What constitutes a scene?

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

So if one is writing in third person limited, and wishes to adhere to the "One scene one pov" adage, what constitutes a scene?

I have a story in which two characters arrive at a theme park.

There is a brief exchange before they enter the park, thus the setting is different.

Once they enter the park, the setting is completely different.

Also...

There is also a defining event in which an attack occurs. After the attack one of my MC's is knocked unconcious.

My question is, what would you consider the defining point of the scene? The attack or the setting change?

sunandshadow · Jul 30, 2009

But you left out the most important info - which of the two characters is the one whose thoughts and feelings you can see at each point? The scene changes every time you switch from one person's thoughts and feelings to the other.

Bufty · Jul 30, 2009

A scene doesn't have to be limited to one physical area in the theatrical sense. You can have several settings in a scene - think of a car chase -or a hunt through a housing estate - or moving from room to room in a block of flats.

It's more a period of time during which something happens.

Re what I think your question is -If your POV character is knocked out during the scene that's where that scene ends because if your POV character isn't aware of something you can't mention it - so the scene will have to end there - at least from his POV.

After a line-break say, you could then continue the scene in the POV of another character, or you could keep the scene continuous by using the POV throughout of a character who sees the other character knocked out, in which case the scene continues as long as needs be.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

sunandshadow said:
But you left out the most important info - which of the two characters is the one whose thoughts and feelings you can see at each point? The scene changes every time you switch from one person's thoughts and feelings to the other.

There are a man and a woman. They arrive at the park. They enter the park. The attack happens. The man is unconcious.

What I would like to do is open the book from the Man's perspective. And switch to the woman's perspective. I guess what I'm asking is, should I do this when the setting changes (inside of park vs outside) or when the attack happens and he is knocked out?

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Bufty said:
A scene doesn't have to be limited to one physical area in the theatrical sense. You can have several settings in a scene - think of a car chase -or a hunt through a housing estate - or moving from room to room in a block of flats.

It's more a period of time during which something happens.

Re what I think your question is -If your POV character is knocked out during the scene that's where that scene ends because if your POV character isn't aware of it you can't mention it - so the scene will have to end there - at least from his POV.

Afeter a line-break say, you could then continue the scene in the POV of another character, or you could keep the scene continuous by using the POV throughout of a character who sees the other character knocked out, in which case the scene continues as long as needs be.

Great, thats the kind of thing I'm looking for.

dpaterso · Jul 30, 2009

Whatever works for you, lucidzfl. A while back I read a novel where a wounded rider falls unconscious in the saddle and POV passes to his horse. And it worked! So anything goes... In this case I might try switching to the woman's POV as they enter the park. That way you get to intro her from his POV beforehand, and then get to know him from her POV, and when the attack comes there's no jarring jump from his to hers, you're already there. It all depends what fits your story and characters (escape clause

).

-Derek

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

dpaterso said:
Whatever works for you, lucidzfl. A while back I read a novel where a wounded rider falls unconscious in the saddle and POV passes to his horse. And it worked! So anything goes... In this case I might try switching to the woman's POV as they enter the park. That way you get to intro her from his POV beforehand, and then get to know him from her POV, and when the attack comes there's no jarring jump from his to hers, you're already there. It all depends what fits your story and characters (escape clause ).

-Derek

My dear man, if it worked for me I wouldn't be on this fine message board asking for help. lol

Shane lived btw. Damnit...

Anyway. I like your idea as well of switching as they enter the park. its a tough call, but in the draft I'm working with, i pop back and forth between pov so many times anything would be an improvement.

Bufty · Jul 30, 2009

I've no idea what your book is about, but it seems to depend upon who your main character is.

If it's the woman use her throughout.

If it's the man, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to switch to the woman at all so soon. If she does nothing apart from call the medics, you might be better ending the scene with him blacking out and cut to the hospital.

Your call.

Now removing my long nose from this thread.

Good luck.

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 30, 2009

For me, a scene ends when I've accomplished what I set out to do. The scene break usually indicates skipped time, though sometimes it can mean switching to a new character in a different place. Like in a big battle scene I may switch from the POV of a character doing hand to hand combat on the beach to one of the captains handling the battle at sea. A switch like that would require a scene break, despite the fact that no time is skipped. Usually the scene breaks indicate skipped time, though. For example, characters get information they need from the library. Scene ends with them getting the information, insert scene break, open new scene with them arriving at the place in information directed them to.

I don't let the POV influence my scene structure. If I'm doing strict limited POV, then I do the scene in the POV of the character who can see it through to the end. You could also work from the POV of the character who loses consciousness, putting a scene break in to indicate the time-skip while they're unconscious and then opening the next scene with them waking up. Depends on what you want to show. No-one else can really tell you how to cut your scenes.

I personally hate it when people put scene breaks in the middle of a scene to indicate a POV switch. They're called scene breaks, not POV breaks. When I see that break, I'm expecting a new scene to begin. Lots of people disagree with me on this, but I think it's lazy writing. I've written books in strict limited and have always managed to structure my scenes so I can tell the entire thing from the POV of a single narrator.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Bufty said:
I've no idea what your book is about, but it seems to depend upon who your main character is.

If it's the woman use her throughout.

If it's the man, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to switch to the woman at all so soon. If she does nothing apart from call the medics, you might be better ending the scene with him blacking out and cut to the hospital.

Your call.

Now removing my long nose from this thread.

Good luck.

No, no, please keep your nose here!

The story is about an apocalypse. The woman definitely does not call the medics, she drags him to safety then guards over him until the explosions stop.

He is primarily the MC for a while, although POV changes definitely occur at certain points in the book.

However, she features prominently near the end in several chapters, although she is never the main MC. Only the man is.

ejwriter · Jul 30, 2009

wow, i'm such a newb.

i'd never even heard of the "one scene one POV" rule.

POV is actually something i've been struggling with, because i have 4 main characters - all equal players in the story - who are together in every scene from beginning to end. i'm writing in 3rd person, and i find myself bouncing in and out of the characters' heads not just in the same scene - but sometimes in the same paragraph!

at times, i think it works. other times, it reads very spastic.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

ejwriter said:
wow, i'm such a newb.

i'd never even heard of the "one scene one POV" rule.

POV is actually something i've been struggling with, because i have 4 main characters - all equal players in the story - who are together in every scene from beginning to end. i'm writing in 3rd person, and i find myself bouncing in and out of the characters' heads not just in the same scene - but sometimes in the same paragraph!

at times, i think it works. other times, it reads very spastic.

I'm a noob too don't feel bad.

I believe you can do what you're saying if you're writing in third person omniscient. I am looking to do third person limited.

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 30, 2009

ejwriter said:
wow, i'm such a newb.

i'd never even heard of the "one scene one POV" rule.

POV is actually something i've been struggling with, because i have 4 main characters - all equal players in the story - who are together in every scene from beginning to end. i'm writing in 3rd person, and i find myself bouncing in and out of the characters' heads not just in the same scene - but sometimes in the same paragraph!

at times, i think it works. other times, it reads very spastic.

One POV per a scene isn't a hard and fast rule. I have some books that switch POVs in the middle of a scene, and so do some bestselling novels. To do the mid-scene switches effectively, you have to have a really firm grip on your POV structure, and it takes a lot of practice to make the switches smooth.

I was daydreaming while I typed my first post and missed dpaterso's post. I agree that switching to her POV as they enter the park might be a very effective way to do it. You could scene break if there's a little time skip.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

Chasing the Horizon said:
One POV per a scene isn't a hard and fast rule. I have some books that switch POVs in the middle of a scene, and so do some bestselling novels. To do the mid-scene switches effectively, you have to have a really firm grip on your POV structure, and it takes a lot of practice to make the switches smooth.

I was daydreaming while I typed my first post and missed dpaterso's post. I agree that switching to her POV as they enter the park might be a very effective way to do it. You could scene break if there's a little time skip.

Because I do not get into the parts of them buying the tickets and standing in line and having her purse searched, theres a definite 20-30 minute window I could have the scene change.

However, I could have her knocked unconscious briefly and come to moments later seeing his motionless body. That would probably qualify as a good shift point as well.

sunandshadow · Jul 30, 2009

lucidzfl said:
There are a man and a woman. They arrive at the park. They enter the park. The attack happens. The man is unconcious.

What I would like to do is open the book from the Man's perspective. And switch to the woman's perspective. I guess what I'm asking is, should I do this when the setting changes (inside of park vs outside) or when the attack happens and he is knocked out?

For each segment, show it from whichever character's pov makes it more interesting, the character who has the more exciting or insightful thoughts and emotions during that scene.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

sunandshadow said:
For each segment, show it from whichever character's pov makes it more interesting, the character who has the more exciting or insightful thoughts and emotions during that scene.

Mitch has been knocked the hell out. So his POV would be quite limited.

Mitch Thought, "".

cwfgal · Jul 30, 2009

You can use chapter breaks, or if it's shorter segments you're dealing with, line breaks (use three pound signs: # # # in between the two paragraphs) to indicate when the POV changes. I would try to end each individual POV on some sort of cliffhanging note to keep the reader going.

If you have two characters who are together throughout the book and both POVs are used, I'd try to keep them as balanced as possible. Sticking the occasional female POV in there when most of the book is the man's might be jarring. That's not to say it can't work, just to be careful.

Beth

maestrowork · Jul 31, 2009

lucidzfl said:
No, no, please keep your nose here!

The story is about an apocalypse. The woman definitely does not call the medics, she drags him to safety then guards over him until the explosions stop.

He is primarily the MC for a while, although POV changes definitely occur at certain points in the book.

However, she features prominently near the end in several chapters, although she is never the main MC. Only the man is.

But who is the main character? Whose story is this?

It seems like the man is the MC, and it's his story, even though it's about the apocalypse. Then it should be his view point.

Is there a reason why you switch to hers? It seems like the only reason is that he's "unconscious" when all things break loose.

When you choose to do 3rd limited, you're bound by the limitations but gain certain intimacy with the characters. But from your description, it doesn't seem to me that you need that intimacy.

To me, it seems like you're better off doing omniscient with a focus on your main character(s). That way, you have better control of scope. You can describe terrible events that your MCs are not experiencing, but you still have to way of keeping the focus on them.

Writing third person limited. What constitutes a scene?

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