when improvement and production destroys confidence

kuatolives · Jul 29, 2009

Running into a bit of a new problem here.

I pump out about 4 books a year. I'm unagented, unpublished, unwanted, etc. I would rather be writing than spending the time and energy necessary to land an agent. (Probably why I'm unpublished duh). Once done a book, I'll toss out a bunch of shotgun queries, forget about them, and start the next book. I can usually finish a book in about 12 weeks, which is what roughly most response times to queries and samples is.

Two problems.
1. By the time the agents start requesting samples, the next book is already done. Which book do you start querying now? (Just to add to the fun, all the books are in different genres).

2. I perceive my writing as significantly improving with each book I write. (A good thing, of course). But this is blowing away my confidence in my previous works, so when one of these agents happens to request one of these old manuscripts out of the blue, I'm already 3/4 of the way through the next book (or finished it) and think the WIP is ohhhh so superior to that crap I wrote a few months ago. My initial reaction is to NOT send it.

It's to the point where I stopped sending my books to my betas because I'm frankly embarrassed by the perceived poor quality of the last book. Just wait 3 weeks Mark. THIS book, THIS book is the one I want you to read!
Now, I'm doing it with agents. I have to find a way to get over myself.

Can someone write too fast, pump out too many books? (Obviously I am for my methods). For me, I love writing every day, but none of my books other than the WIP seems to enjoy my confidence. Every new WIP shoots a bullet through the heart of the last manuscript. If you have no confidence in a book, it makes it terribly hard to get it published, if not impossible. I envy these guys that write one book and flog it around till they're blue in the face. Are THESE the people that end up getting published? They must be, because I'm not.

How do you believe in your past work when you keep getting better?
How do you get the gumption to query old books when your next one - which you think is DA BOMB - is always only a few short weeks away from being complete?

Pick one horse and run with it? Stop writing for a while? (GAH! NOoooo!)
Write short stories for a while?

SilverPhoenix · Jul 30, 2009

You just keep going until you hit the story that you're sure is the one, I guess, in your case

You writing is improving nicely, at least.

I've wrote a couple novels in the past but now years later they look like rubbish to me.

My new WIP, Death Symmetry, is my baby. I decided it's the one I'm gonna go all the way with. But I really struggle to write it as fast as I wrote all the others.

Don't stop sending your books to your betas - they're the ones who can give you valuable input on whether it's good or publishable this time. You can try to slow yourself down by dedicating more time to editing the book and making it better before you let yourself write anything new.

caromora · Jul 30, 2009

Are you taking time to edit/revise your books after you write them? If you like a previous story and feel your writing has improved since writing it, why not revise it until you've got one manuscript that you're confident in submitting? (Did that make sense?)

AMCrenshaw · Jul 30, 2009

Just realize that when you grow as a writer, you always have the opportunity to return to a piece, and, with a more focused attitude, revise it. That's the wondrous thing about revision. Some of those words will be unnecessary, but they won't be wasted.

AMC

Mumut · Jul 30, 2009

Was it Mark Twain said the easier it is to write, the harder it is to read. Are you researching your finished work for readability? Do you read the work out loud? I'd suggest you post samples to SYW (Share Your Work) for some help from qualified peers.

Libbie · Jul 30, 2009

Mumut said:
Was it Mark Twain said the easier it is to write, the harder it is to read. Are you researching your finished work for readability? Do you read the work out loud? I'd suggest you post samples to SYW (Share Your Work) for some help from qualified peers.

You can't go wrong with Mark Twain's advice.

Do you have good beta readers, who are unapologetically helpful? (Read: harsh, but loving.)

Rewriting is a good thing. It allows you to get intimate with your story all over again and see what needs to stay and what needs to go. If you feel your writing improves each time, why not go back and rework a previous book to see if you can make it even better? I finished my WIP at 90,000 words and then went back to rework it. I thought of so many great new things to add that really increased the depth of the story and the characters, and my writing had improved as well. I ended up totally rewriting the entire thing. So while the general idea of the story is the same, I feel that it's a much different book now, and I'm way more happy with it. I'm excited about querying it when this rewrite is done. Maybe you need to give that a try.

john barnes on toast · Jul 30, 2009

kuatolives said:
Running into a bit of a new problem here.

I pump out about 4 books a year.

I have a hard time believing that any of these projects could be coming remotely close to fulfilling their potential.

I don't know of anyone who could write a novel to the best of their abilities in 3 months. If you have a story that you believe in, and you really want to see it published then you're probably going to have to do more work on it.
Pick your favourite and work the dam thing until it's as good a piece of writing as you believe you're capable of producing; then agent it.

C.M.C. · Jul 30, 2009

john barnes on toast said:
I don't know of anyone who could write a novel to the best of their abilities in 3 months. If you have a story that you believe in, and you really want to see it published then you're probably going to have to do more work on it.

I'll disagree with that. I wrote my book in three months, did cursory editing, and sent it out. I was, and still am confident that it is as good a representation of my ability as I could have produced. I can't speak for the original poster, but there are some writers who write their first drafts well enough that heavy editing isn't needed. They could very easily pump out books at that rate that are good enough.

ChaosTitan · Jul 30, 2009

kuatolives said:
Can someone write too fast, pump out too many books? (Obviously I am for my methods). For me, I love writing every day, but none of my books other than the WIP seems to enjoy my confidence. Every new WIP shoots a bullet through the heart of the last manuscript.

To answer your first question there, no. I don't believe there's any such thing as too many books, because you've already shown us that every book you've written has helped you improve your skills. So no book is, in my opinion, wasted. Even the trunked ones.

My first impulse, though, is to say "stop querying." Just stop. You say you write multiple genres. You say you improve with each no book.

I say you're still finding your feet. Debut authors need to establish a track record inside of one genre. You're obviously testing your waters and gaining a lot of writing experience for it. But now's the time to focus.

Find the genre you like the most. Stay there. Keep writing. Take some time between WIP's to not write for a little while. Decide where you want to go with your writing--churning out book after book, with no clear goal in mind is like being stuck on a freeway without exit ramps.

If publication is your goal, you need to do more than toss off shotgun queries and forget about them.

If you have no confidence in a book, it makes it terribly hard to get it published, if not impossible. I envy these guys that write one book and flog it around till they're blue in the face. Are THESE the people that end up getting published? They must be, because I'm not.

Stop worrying about what other people do and how they made it. Focus on you and what you are or are not doing. If you don't have confidence in your own books, no one else will, either.

I queried two other books before the one that got me signed. I believed in each of those books. But as I continued to write and grow as a writer, I could look back and see the flaws in the older manuscripts. And it's a good thing! Does that mean I started querying too soon? Probably, but I don't regret the time or expense. I learned a lot, and I came to understand why those books were rejected time and again.

How do you believe in your past work when you keep getting better?
How do you get the gumption to query old books when your next one - which you think is DA BOMB - is always only a few short weeks away from being complete?

Hopefully, we all get better with each book we write. Your next should always be better than your last.

I think the question you're asking (and which has a very nebulous answer) is: How do I know when the book I've written is The One?

The nebulous answer is: you can't know, you can only give it your all. Tuck your head in and barrel forward.

ChaosTitan · Jul 30, 2009

john barnes on toast said:
I don't know of anyone who could write a novel to the best of their abilities in 3 months.

Pleased to meet you. And I know a few other published authors I can send your way.

thethinker42 · Jul 30, 2009

john barnes on toast said:
I have a hard time believing that any of these projects could be coming remotely close to fulfilling their potential.

I don't know of anyone who could write a novel to the best of their abilities in 3 months.

Different people work at different paces. Both of my contracted novels were written, edited, and sold over periods of less than 90 days. It just depends on the individual.

That said, I think Libbie is onto something:

Libbie said:
Do you have good beta readers, who are unapologetically helpful? (Read: harsh, but loving.)

Having someone like that in your corner can be tremendously helpful. I have three (Libbie, scarletpeaches, and Adzmodeus, since they'll hurt me if I don't mention them by name), and they don't hesitate to rip something to shreds if need be. By the time any of my work is submitted to an editor or agent, it's been read - and brutalized - by those three. They are more than happy to let me know, in no uncertain terms, if something sucks when I'm being too precious about my own writing to see it.

Take as much (or as little) time as you need, but do not underestimate the value of a second set of eyes...as long as that second set of eyes is willing to offer a thorough, brutal critique.

Red-Green · Jul 30, 2009

Here's the question: do you really want to get a book published?

If no, carry on. Sounds like you're having fun writing. No sense ruining that.

If yes, you have work to do. There's nothing wrong with writing a lot, but if you're realizing as you go along that you're getting better and therefore your previous works aren't as good as the one you're working on right now...you need to start dedicating time to revision.

Revision improves your writing in bigger leaps than a new project, because you get to build on all the work you've done. (And it's fine to keep writing new stuff at the same time you're revising a previous work.)

So...pick a project and commit to it. Commit to re-reading it multiple times and revising and editing and polishing and improving. Only after you've done that a few times do you send query letters.

There's nothing unusual about being able to look back on an earlier book and think, "I'm a better writer now." The answer to this, though, is going back with your new abilities and making that earlier book better.

And consider this: the book I have on sub right now...there are things I wish I could edit in it. It terrifies me occasionally when I think about the fact that my agent subbed the original version I sent him when he requested the full. He didn't ask for revisions, because he thought it was good as it was. The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that I thought it was as good as I could make it, too. Otherwise I wouldn't have been querying it. In my mind, that's the place you should be before you query--at a point where you've made the book as good as you can.

vox · Jul 30, 2009

kuatolives said:
2. I perceive my writing as significantly improving with each book I write. (A good thing, of course). But this is blowing away my confidence in my previous works, so when one of these agents happens to request one of these old manuscripts out of the blue, I'm already 3/4 of the way through the next book (or finished it) and think the WIP is ohhhh so superior to that crap I wrote a few months ago. My initial reaction is to NOT send it.

Are you certain that you can trust your perceptions? There's been lots of discussion about people being too close to their work to be objective.

I think the advice about making sure your beta readers are both honest and qualified seems very sound here. You might be pleasantly surprised to find that your previous work is holding its own against the new stuff. Of course, you might also discover that the improvement you see in your work isn't as apparent to the betas. Either way, it's good information to posess.

Best of luck!

Andreya · Jul 30, 2009

Yup, I second the idea of good beta readers or crit group!

Also, it was EXTREMELY helpful to me to know that even JK Rowling & Amanda Quick (both of who I admire & are huge bestselling authors) HATE their books after 3/4 or so... & think their books suck (once written) - or something like that..

It didn't stop them from selling millions.

Their books do have flaws but have still been LOVED & embraced by many...

I've read books by a teenage wonder here in Slovenia, and they are bad - I mean really horrible!! BUT teenagers LOVE them!!
& surely the author will (hopefully) improve when she grows up..

So what if by not submitting you are not giving people a chance to LOVE your books?

I wish I could write & finish books as quickly as you & some other people do!!
Have read an awesome play that was written in less than 10 days, one I think overnight even... So it really depends on the inspiration & quality.. Time is less of the essence..

Just some things to consider.

YAwriter72 · Jul 30, 2009

john barnes on toast said:
I have a hard time believing that any of these projects could be coming remotely close to fulfilling their potential.

Gotta jump on the it's possible bandwagon too. Its take me about 4-6 weeks to draft and another 2 to edit before I send to agent. 4 books a year would be no problem for me.

scarletpeaches · Jul 30, 2009

Aye. I could write two books a year without trying. Three with effort. Four would be stretching myself.

Note these are only MY limits, and limits can change as you strengthen your writing muscles.

Anyone who says you can't write a book fast AND well hasn't met thethinker42. It annoys me when people judge other writers by their standards. Just because one person can't - or WON'T in most cases - write fast and to the best of their abilities, doesn't mean no-one can.

I've seen it happen time and time again, as others have already posted.

kuatolives · Jul 30, 2009

I guess Formula One race cars don't come off assembly lines.
And no race car ever won sitting in the garage.

I guess that's why God invented pen names.

Thanks for the advice.

lucidzfl · Jul 30, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
Pleased to meet you. And I know a few other published authors I can send your way.

I would love to respond to that, but I'm too busy staring at the chick in your avatar.

Please tell me she really exists... And that you have photos.

ljcblue · Jul 30, 2009

I think you are missing out on a crucial opportunity in your progression as a writer: editing. You already have the discipline to start and finish work. You have an enviable ability to write quickly. You understand that each book you write brings you skills and improves your craft. These are all skills that will stand you in good stead as a professional writer.

Now, take what you have learned and apply it to a finished book.

I recommend looking at a project you have not read or thought about in at least 6 months. Print it out on paper. Read it with a red pen in hand and take notes on what works and what doesn't work in the story.

Even if you write really 'clean' first drafts, you will find things you want/need to change. That is what your subconscious may be telling you when you feel you dislike your old work.

And it doesn't need to be an either/or situation. Keep writing new stuff while you edit the old stuff.

best,
lisa

john barnes on toast · Jul 30, 2009

YAwriter72 said:
Gotta jump on the it's possible bandwagon too. Its take me about 4-6 weeks to draft and another 2 to edit before I send to agent. 4 books a year would be no problem for me.

Not saying it's impossible, just that I find it hard to believe.

C.M.C. · Jul 30, 2009

Little Bird said:
By the way, all professionals who produce work that can be viewed/ read later (actors, artists, writers, even athletes whose events are filmed) must deal with the fact that old work that is inferior to their current ability will continue to be on display. Humility after it's too late to change things is as essential as the ability to improve on old work while we still can.

That assumes that artists are always improving, which I will contend is not the case. Not by a long shot.

scarletpeaches · Jul 30, 2009

john barnes on toast said:
Not saying it's impossible, just that I find it hard to believe.

Even though plenty of people in this thread manage it without breaking their back?

Nateskate · Jul 30, 2009

You could be the greatest or worst writer in the world, and no one can know unless you share your work.

So it's really impossible to gage an answer from what you are saying.

Rather, it sounds more like a fear of not hitting a home run every time at bat, so you stay in the dugout. Swinging at shadows isn't the same as swinging at real pitches.

My suggestion is that you stop writing and start sharing. Subjectively (your opinion) is that your work is getting better. That may be true, but you need to get confirmation and feedback. If it's good enough to publish then you're wasting closet space by stuffing endless manuscripts in there. To succeed you have to risk failing.

Ken · Jul 30, 2009

kuatolives said:
... none of my books other than the WIP seems to enjoy my confidence. Every new WIP shoots a bullet through the heart of the last manuscript.

... you and me both! Thought I was teh only with this. And I'm worse, I believe. When laboring on a new work the ones I've done in the past don't even qualify as writing in my view, but seem like mere exercises or warm-ups. So improvement (if I am making it and not kidding myself in some delusional fantasy which is entirely possible) is indeed a catch 22.

Thanks for sharing. I feel less weird now

scarletpeaches · Jul 30, 2009

That's a good thing IMO. No-one wants to go downhill, do they?

when improvement and production destroys confidence

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