What are some fantasy works...

BlackBriar · Jul 28, 2009

What are some modern fantasy works...

...you all believe follow the rules best (show not tell, few info dumps, and whatever rule you can come up with) and what are some who do not follow those rules. Just interested in seeing the rule's relation to what's popular nowadays.

AMCrenshaw · Jul 28, 2009

As I'd said in the other thread, Borges doesn't show too much. His art is in condensed telling and I think his work is quite popular.

AMC

Kitty Pryde · Jul 28, 2009

Meh, there aren't The Rules. There's just the one rule: do what works.

If an infodump works, use it. Thing is, it almost never does. If telling works, tell away. Though it usually doesn't work in long stretches. If jumping POV all over the place works, go for it. Normally it doesn't. If the force of your brilliance can manage to make it work, do it!

If you want to read good contemporary fantasy: The Hugo Winners, Nebula Winners, Tiptree Winners, and the Locus Winners are a good place to start. [ETA: AMC pointed out I should add World Fantasy Award.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebula_Award_for_Best_Novel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tiptree,_Jr._Award#Winners
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_Award_for_Best_Fantasy_Novel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Fantasy_Award_for_Best_Novel

Abizern · Jul 28, 2009

Two of my favourite fantasy writers hardly use info dumps:
- Steph Swainston (The Fourlands books)
- China Miéville (The world of Bas Lag and even "The City and The City")

The richly-imagined worlds are presented without the need for info dumps; which makes them difficult to read for some people who can't immediately suspend their disbelief enough. (All IMHO, of course).

BlackBriar · Jul 28, 2009

Actually Kitty, I wasn't looking for books to read. Just wondering if the Rules had anything to do with reality and what people out there actually liked as based on sales, popularity. Of course what agents like is pretty damn important. Only name I recognized was China Miéville.

Kitty Pryde · Jul 28, 2009

Like I said, you won't find many books filled with infodumps. You won't find many books that are all tell and no show. The zillions of rules you know are based in reality, because it's really hard to make those rule-breaking things work. Thing is, if you are well-read enough in your genre to know what almost never works and what usually does work, your job as a writer will be infinitely easier. That's why I suggested you read some award-winning novels

Etola · Jul 28, 2009

Well, I can say that Twilight is very popular despite its lack of believable characters who behave realistically (which I think should be a rule of good fiction). Take this with a grain of salt, because I've never read the books themselves; but those of my friends who have read them complain that the characters are utterly unbelievable. And I'm not talking about the vampirism or lycanthropy; it's in how they act towards one another.

And George R.R. Martin, judging only by the size of his ginormous (and ginormously popular) books, tends not to follow the rule of "trim the fat." Then again, I think fantasy as a genre can get away with more padding, thanks in no small part to Tolkein's legacy.

Patrice · Jul 28, 2009

CupofDice said:
Actually Kitty, I wasn't looking for books to read. Just wondering if the Rules had anything to do with reality and what people out there actually liked as based on sales, popularity. Of course what agents like is pretty damn important. Only name I recognized was China Miéville.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but seriously, if you only recognized Mieville out of the books mentioned, may I suggest you should be looking for books to read? Because you might not have read enough to really understand what The Rules (or as Kitty points out, the "rules") are supposed to accomplish.

Etola · Jul 28, 2009

Patrice said:
I'm not sure what you mean here, but seriously, if you only recognized Mieville out of the books mentioned, may I suggest you should be looking for books to read? Because you might not have read enough to really understand what The Rules (or as Kitty points out, the "rules") are supposed to accomplish.

To be fair to CupofDice, at the time he posted that, only two books had been mentioned by name, and I didn't recognize the other author either.

Unless CoD is including the award winners lists as well...

BlackBriar · Jul 28, 2009

Patrice said:
I'm not sure what you mean here, but seriously, if you only recognized Mieville out of the books mentioned, may I suggest you should be looking for books to read? Because you might not have read enough to really understand what The Rules (or as Kitty points out, the "rules") are supposed to accomplish.

Thanks, but no thanks. I like what I like, and popular epic fantasy is what I like. Of course I didn't include the Hugo awards, and other awards, and as Etola said, not many were mentioned when I made that post.

When I was making this post, I was thinking of Wheel of Time, and how at many times it seems to tell, not show. Also you have something like Tolkien- beautiful world with great characters, but so damn boring because we are not shown the characters or the world he created.

I guess the point of this thread was, if the mark of good writing is one of following these said writing rules, why are the most popular fantasy authors breaking them, even in the last few years. And in what situation does the rule breaking works, and when it doesn't. Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind is great, yet there is a lot of info dumping in it for example. Basically this was touched upon in some other threads I've read, but no one really went into detail.

I personally believe it is a bit of elitism vs what's popular, but I could be wrong.

Kitty Pryde · Jul 28, 2009

I maintain: the genius author can break the rules because she can make it work. The rest of us mere mortals toil away with 'show. don't tell' and all the rest. Epic fantasy tends more towards the tell than other subgenres. You've got an audience willing to endure a bit more of it. But in the end it's not the percentage of time showing versus telling, but whether or not the reader is engaged.

BlackBriar · Jul 28, 2009

Well, I wouldn't call RJ a genius author any day. lol. Even if he is my fav, that's a title that goes to GRRM. Then again no one can get under my skin as RJ can, and I think he did it on purpose.

I get what you are saying though, but I also think it has to do with when you introduce your information. Slow and steady in the beginning, loads of info at the middle, action at the end? Exaggerating of course, but something like that.

Patrice · Jul 28, 2009

I've read GRR Martin and I can't think of an info-dump in Song of Ice and Fire (which I assume is the Martin we're all talking about). Now, he provides a lot of information, but that's not the same thing. In fact, I'd say his unfolding of plot and backstory is doled out at the appropriate pacing and with the right amount of tension to keep you reading.

An info-dump can be one line, like this:

"As you know, Bob, we're here to shut down the reactor core so it doesn't blow up the planet. And we only have five minutes and 15 seconds left."

It doesn't have to be pages of background. So CupofDice might be thinking that the former -- pages of backstory -- is an info dump when, really, it's not.

Nivarion · Jul 28, 2009

Patrice said:
I've read GRR Martin and I can't think of an info-dump in Song of Ice and Fire (which I assume is the Martin we're all talking about). Now, he provides a lot of information, but that's not the same thing. In fact, I'd say his unfolding of plot and backstory is doled out at the appropriate pacing and with the right amount of tension to keep you reading.

An info-dump can be one line, like this:

"As you know, Bob, we're here to shut down the reactor core so it doesn't blow up the planet. And we only have five minutes and 15 seconds left."

It doesn't have to be pages of background. So CupofDice might be thinking that the former -- pages of backstory -- is an info dump when, really, it's not.

That hypothetical line might be funny if it was followed by something "So why then ARE YOU WASTING TIME!"

But anyway, Something along the lines of this was discussed earlier. Writing is like Cooking. You can write a formulated story that works. It won't be great, it won't get you fame or fortune. In fact it will probably get you laughed at. But it will work.

That is a lot like following a recipe without knowing any whys. The brownie recipe says to not use egg replacements, and the writing recipe say show and not tell. If you blindly follow then you won't know why you do these things. You won't know that using egg replacements gets you a brick soaked in oil or that telling bores readers to sleep. You'll never learn when to do things at their moment.

So a great chef may use a different emulsifier in his brownies, due to a lack of eggs, and a great writer may tell a lot because he needs to. They know when and why and how.

basically.

BlackBriar · Jul 28, 2009

Patrice said:
I've read GRR Martin and I can't think of an info-dump in Song of Ice and Fire (which I assume is the Martin we're all talking about). Now, he provides a lot of information, but that's not the same thing. In fact, I'd say his unfolding of plot and backstory is doled out at the appropriate pacing and with the right amount of tension to keep you reading.

An info-dump can be one line, like this:

"As you know, Bob, we're here to shut down the reactor core so it doesn't blow up the planet. And we only have five minutes and 15 seconds left."

It doesn't have to be pages of background. So CupofDice might be thinking that the former -- pages of backstory -- is an info dump when, really, it's not.

Read my post again. I called GRRM (ASoIaF) a genius. I was saying that title doesn't go to RJ even though he is my fav.

And once again, purpose of the thread isn't whether or not following the rules is good (I am busy trying to follow them and don't plan on stopping-as said, I agree with kitty about lesser mortals), but who is popular (think joe abercrombie, scott lynch) and doesn't follow the rules (not that those two follow, or don't follow the rules).

Probably a pointless thread made at a forum for writers as opposed to readers, or even better a mix of the two.

ChaosTitan · Jul 29, 2009

CupofDice said:
I guess the point of this thread was, if the mark of good writing is one of following these said writing rules, why are the most popular fantasy authors breaking them, even in the last few years.

Your answers is in that sentence.

Popular and well-selling fantasy authors can break the "rules" because they have established themselves. They have a fan base. They write books people want to read.

These "rules" we're so fond of exist (I believe) in order to educate new writers. If we're faced with a "rule," then we want to know why. The explanation is another tool in our Writer's Toolbox. I'm a big proponent of the old saying "learn the rules so you know how to break them properly." Practiced writers know why something is generally accepted as the "rule," and they also know how to successfully (most of them know) break them in their stories.

CupofDice said:
Probably a pointless thread made at a forum for writers as opposed to readers, or even better a mix of the two.

Most of us are both writers and readers. Some folks actually are just readers. Hang around a bit before you start making blanket generalizations about such a large community.

And frankly, it's impossible to be a writer without also being a reader.

What are some fantasy works...

BlackBriar

Bricoleur

AMCrenshaw

...

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Abizern

BlackBriar

Bricoleur

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Etola

Still looking for stars...

Patrice

Etola

Still looking for stars...

BlackBriar

Bricoleur

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

BlackBriar

Bricoleur

Patrice

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

BlackBriar

Bricoleur

ChaosTitan

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