Third person limited---question

lizabethcm · Jul 27, 2009

I'm writing a story in third person limited, and my question is... there are a couple parts in the story, twice while my main character's on the phone, and once while she's in the other room, that I want the readers to know what's going on in the places she is not technically in... like the expression on her friends face who's talking to her on the phone, etc.

How do I do that? Or is it not okay to do within third person limited?

JonSwift · Jul 27, 2009

By the way Sara spoke into the reciever, I could tell her brow was crinkled and she was frowning.

Poor example but one possibility.

Mr Flibble · Jul 27, 2009

Not within third limited no - you are limited to what that character knows.

But you can switch to another character's third limited

But it would help if you've intro'd that character before ( for a good reason), or it'll seem weird and jarring.

BigWords · Jul 27, 2009

Ask yourself if the scene really needs to slip out of the third limited, or if it is your need to have control over the minutia of the story. If you can write the scenes without breaking the flow, and they convey the story clearly enough, then you really don't need to use another character's perspective.

All of which is just my thoughts on the subject...

Kathleen42 · Jul 27, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
Not within third limited no - you are limited to what that character knows.

But you can switch to another character's third limited

But it would help if you've intro'd that character before ( for a good reason), or it'll seem weird and jarring.

Just for two scenes, though. It would be hard not to make that jarring.

To the OP: When you chose third person limited or first person and you choose to follow just one character then you are limited to what your character knows, sees, and feels. You have to be creative in how to get certain information to the reader.

I would resist the urge to head hop just to record the expression on someone's face. Figure out why that expression is important - what does the expression convey- and figure out another way to get that across.

Matera the Mad · Jul 27, 2009

The phone expressions can be handled with voice description, pauses, swallowing sounds etc.. But in another room, you have to switch to another POV in that room, someone known to the reader and probably close to the MC.

katiemac · Jul 27, 2009

lizabethcm said:
I'm writing a story in third person limited, and my question is... there are a couple parts in the story, twice while my main character's on the phone, and once while she's in the other room, that I want the readers to know what's going on in the places she is not technically in... like the expression on her friends face who's talking to her on the phone, etc.

How do I do that? Or is it not okay to do within third person limited?

It's sometimes tough to quell the desire to want your book to "read like a movie," in that what you see when you write also translates on the page.

But JonSwift proposed the general solution to describing the actual imagery.

[Sarah's POV]
"On the other end of the line, Jenny laughed. Sarah imagined her friend's famous smile."

Or whatever.

Izz · Jul 27, 2009

For the phone conversations, make the dialogue within the conversation convey feelings and expressions. If it's a conversation going on in the other room that she can hear, then you could do the same thing there. Dialogue can convey emotion a whole lot more effectively than facial expressions anyway.

maestrowork · Jul 27, 2009

lizabethcm said:
How do I do that? Or is it not okay to do within third person limited?

No you can't. It's called "limited" for a reason. You're restricted to only the things your POV character can observe or know.

Is there a reason why you must convey the facial expression of the other character? After all, we don't know either when we're on the phone with someone. Part of the fun is to get what the other person is thinking or reacting by their conversation, the silence, and tone of voice.

To me, with phone conversations, you need to make your dialogue work harder.

You can have the POV character interpret things, of course:

"Whatever does that mean?" she said with a raised voice. He could just see her frown in his mind, the way she always would when she raised her voice.

NedC · Jul 28, 2009

All you guys have obviously been on the same course.

Mr Flibble · Jul 28, 2009

All you guys have obviously been on the same course.

More like we all know the definition of third limited and its, er, limitations.

Kathleen42 · Jul 28, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
More like we all know the definition of third limited and its, er, limitations.

And we, you know, read books.

aadams73 · Jul 28, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
More like we all know the definition of third limited and its, er, limitations.

Yes, it's simply stunning and amazing that some of us understand our tools.

Limited is limited because it's limited. Voila!

aadams73 · Jul 28, 2009

katiemac said:
[Sarah's POV]
"On the other end of the line, Jenny laughed. Sarah imagined her friend's famous smile."

Or whatever.

This.

Think about your own family and friends. You know them. You're familiar with their facial expressions. When you're talking to them on the phone, you just know what their face is doing as they deliver a particular line. You can picture it. I can easily visualize my sister's trademark nose wrinkle when she talks about an acquaintance we share--and she's about 10,000 miles away.

Apply this to your writing and maintain the integrity of your chosen POV and POV character. Katiemac nailed the method for you.

Now go forth and write.

Red-Green · Jul 29, 2009

Plus, part of the beauty of limited third is that the reader doesn't get to see/hear/know anything thing MC doesn't. This creates a real intimacy. Just as an example, let's say your MC is dating a girl whose parents hate him. He's just dropped her off at home and her dad is watching from the porch. MC knows the girlfriend is getting ready to go inside and have a huge fight with her parents, in which many important things will be said.

Maybe you've got the scene already in your head and you think it's great. Only problem, you'd have to switch POV. Instead of doing that, or feeling cheated, investigate the ways you can use that scene that you know happens, but that your MC doesn't witness to affect your MC's behavior and his relationship with the girlfriend.

You can do this best not by having the girlfriend report a blow-by-blow, but by having her drop hints about the conversation. Or you can let your MC's imagination run wild when the girlfriend doesn't call. Or he can call a friend of hers to try to find out what happened. Or dozens of other interesting things that will more accurately reflect what this whole experience is like for your MC.

ETA: Because isn't that the goal? To allow the reader to connect with your MC's experiences? Including ignorance and confusion.

maestrowork · Jul 29, 2009

It's actually a pitfall or crutch many new writers have: they want to tell EVERYTHING. They may be writing in 3rd limited, but they are actually itching to write omniscient.

I blame it on movies and TV, which are often in 3rd objective/camera or omniscient (when voiceover narration is used). So many new writers believe they have to reveal everything. If two people are on the phone, then we need to SHOW both of them.

As writers, we need to have better control of our craft. If it's limited, then keep it limited even if the temptation to tell all is there. Part of being a writer is to maintain that narrative control. Plus it's damn fun to create suspense and mystery when we don't tell everything.

NedC · Jul 31, 2009

aadams73 said:
Yes, it's simply stunning and amazing that some of us understand our tools.

Well... You know the names of your tools. That's a start.

BigWords · Jul 31, 2009

NedC said:
Well... You know the names of your tools. That's a start.

I always use the whatchamacallit for the thingymajig.

Izz · Jul 31, 2009

NedC said:
Well... You know the names of your tools. That's a start.

Hmm. Methinks someone's trying to be snippy.

Meh. :Shrug:

Alice100 · Aug 1, 2009

NedC said:
Well... You know the names of your tools. That's a start.

I think he's got a point. There's a logical fallacy here:

All good writers understand their tools.
Socrates understands his tools.
Therefore Socrates is a good writer.

Not so, sadly.

I'm not even sure whether the initial premise is true. Tools and rules are useful to those who teach creative writing. They may be useful to those who want to improve their craft. Or they may not.

Writing is an art. Like the man says in All That Jazz, "I can't make you a great dancer. I can't even make you a good dancer. If you work hard I may be able to make you a better dancer."

Mr Flibble · Aug 1, 2009

All good writers understand their tools.
Socrates understands his tools.
Therefore Socrates is a good writer.

I don't think anyone said that. Because that wouldn't make sense

But Third Limited is called such for a reason. If you swoop off to another POV without a POV break it isn't Third Limited. It's probably Omni or similar.

Like if you have an animal that goes 'woof' it's probably not a cat.

All we are trying to do is show what makes something Limited. As the Op asked.

Tools and rules are useful to those who teach creative writing. They may be useful to those who want to improve their craft. Or they may not.

They are useful to writers in two respects - they help you understand what works and what doesn't ( and that really helps if you want to get published) and also that if you break a rule ( which you can, they're more guidleines really) you should know why and for what effect. Just doing it willy nilly probably won't work. In spades. Just as driving Formula One without knowing the rules would almost certainly result in a hideous crash.

Writing is an art. But with painting say, you need to know the rules of perspective before you can break them without it coming out a mess.

And if Ned thinks knowing the rules ...no wait. I won't go there.

Izz · Aug 1, 2009

Alice100 said:
I think he's got a point. There's a logical fallacy here:

All good writers understand their tools.
Socrates understands his tools.
Therefore Socrates is a good writer.

Not so, sadly.

I'm not even sure whether the initial premise is true. Tools and rules are useful to those who teach creative writing. They may be useful to those who want to improve their craft. Or they may not.

Writing is an art. Like the man says in All That Jazz, "I can't make you a great dancer. I can't even make you a good dancer. If you work hard I may be able to make you a better dancer."

While he may have a *general* point, the context of this thread implies that he is being snarky. Perhaps he's not, but that's what the context implies. I'm sure he can come by and politely correct me if i'm off base.

On top of that, this 'point' you expand on really has no bearing in the context of the question the OP asked, or the advice that's been provided, or even the statement that Ned quoted in his post. I haven't seen any evidence provided that the person referenced (or anyone else offering advice in this thread) doesn't understand their tools or has provided bad advice.

If i were in a less charitable mood i might point out that the context of your post (it being your first and based around contentiousness) implies that you are a troll. But i happen to be in a charitable mood, so i won't.

If you do seriously want to have a discussion about this logical fallacy you've found, then why not start a thread about it? But first, it would be a good idea to search for other threads here on AW that discuss art versus craft. You'll find a whole swag and they all pretty much start out the same and end up the same.

RJK · Aug 3, 2009

Writing in 3rd Limited requires that you remain in the POV of the MC. You can, infrequently switch POV's using chapter or at least scene breaks. If you shift POV more than that, you are no longer writing in 3rd Limited. It is something else, perhaps Omniscient.

dpaterso · Aug 4, 2009

Yeah that pretty much sums it up, RJK.

Msg to all: snippy and snarky and oh-so-clever can go take a hike, and in future may vanish in a puff of green smoke. Just answer the OP's question as best you can -- or if you can't, go find your jollies elsewhere.

-Derek

Third person limited---question

figuring it all out

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Geekzilla

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Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Five by Five

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Fear the Death Ray

Nasty piece of work

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

crushing on fictional characters

A Work in Progress

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KoalaKoalaKoala!

Fear the Death Ray

Nasty piece of work

Geekzilla

Doing the Space Operatic

No nonsense

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Doing the Space Operatic

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