A marketing thread

Until you're published you don't really need to market your manuscript (you might work on marketing yourself as a writer, but there's no product yet). And if you suck at marketing, don't market. Not every writer does, and it's up to you to decide how much you want to do. If having a website is all you can handle, just do that. Put your energy into crafting a novel that kicks butt so the publisher feels it's a hot enough property for them to do the marketing.

I don't think good books will eventually be published, because "good" isn't all that's needed. You can have a well written, professional quality book that has the same plot as nineteen others on the shelf and there's just no more room for that idea. Or it has a similar plot to a blockbuster mega-bestseller. There's not a lot that can be done if that's the case, not matter how good the book might be. You can try to put a fresh spin on it, or you can write something new.

I do, however, think a great book will eventually sell if the author perseveres.

As for your second question, I suspect you're talking about query letters here, since you're saying "be published" and not "sell."

If so, the basic rule of thumb is: (If not, you can stop reading)

If you get no bites from your query, it's either the writing or the idea.

If it's the writing...
Keep working on it until you start getting bites. Get into crit groups, post on SYW, read sites like Miss Snark, Query Shark, Pub Rants and learn how to write a great query.

If it's the idea...
There's not much you can do. If the idea won't fly, you can either revise with a new angle, wait a few years to see if it's timing on that subject, or write something new.

If you're getting bites on the query, then it's working. Depending on how many bites you get can tell you if you need to tweak further. If you're only getting one or two out of a dozen, you might want to sharper the query some.

If you're getting rejected on the pages, then it's the writing.
The idea got your foot in the door, but the book isn't holding up for whatever reason. Again, find a crit group and find out why, then fix it.

If the full is getting rejected, then it's the book or the agent.

If it's the agent...
Sometimes a book can be publishable and someone just won't like it. You'll usually get "not for me, but you'll probably do well elsewhere" type comments if that's the case. Or a book is close, but not quite there yet and needs more work, they might mention what you can do to improve it.

If it's the book...
Sometimes a book has an interesting idea but the execution needs more work to fix. Or it starts well, but ends flat, or bogs down in the middle. Something happened to either stop them reading it or left them unsatisfied at the end. Again, it's back to crit groups to find out what isn't working and fix it. Or it might be a book that no one can figure out how to sell.

There are very few marketing methods you can use for a novel before it's published. The biggest one is your query. You should have that elevator pitch ready, too, if you're going to conferences or like to stalk editors as they're leaving the workplace (not recommended).

Theoretically speaking, a good novel should translate into a good query letter and pitch. Only bad novels will inherently translate into bad queries. If it's not something the author is good at doing by herself, then seek out resources: SYW Query here at AW, sending out drafts to QueryShark, etc. Same with synopses.

The fact there a few ways to shop your book is, actually, a good thing. You focus your attention on learning how to do a couple of things really well instead of having to figure out a vast array of possible marketing solutions and spreading your time between them.

blacbird said:

You don't need to market your manuscript to an agent or a publisher? Am I missing something about this "process"?

caw

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It's not the same kind of broad-scale marketing you'll do when the book is published. Pre-publishing, you're pretty much stuck in the pitching phase.

Know your genre, know which agents and publishers operate within that genre, nail your query letter. And go.

blacbird said:

What do you do when you just plain suck at marketing your manuscripts? How do you know when that, and the not the writing itself, is the main problem? Who actually believes that "anything good will eventually be published"?

(The third is a loaded question, IMO, based on impenetrably circular reasoning, but I'd be interested in seeing opinions on it anyway.)

caw

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blacbird said:

You don't need to market your manuscript to an agent or a publisher? Am I missing something about this "process"?

caw

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When people use "marketing" in the context of a manuscript, I, and apparently others, read that as marketing the book to the public. probably because when we are talking about landing an agent or publisher, it isn't really thought of as marketing (attracting attention in the marketplace) so much as pitching the project. So, that's the confusion on terminology.

But, putting aside that terminology confusion, Danthia nailed it.

If you are not getting any requests for partials or fulls off queries, it is likely the query. Get thee to QLH in SYW.

The only caveat to that is that even the best query can't save books so out of touch with what is sellable that even the best query won't sell it - ie, 500,000 word count MG novel, illustrated erotica for the kidergarten set, an obvious knock-off (for example, I'd be surprised if there'd be success querying for a novel called Dusk, a YA paranormal romance about a clumsy girl who moves to live with her father, and then falls for a sparkly vampire and then gets lured home to her dance studio by an evil vampire), etc. - and that you can only know through researching word count, genre, etc.

But if it's within range on all obvious attributes and genre, then it is likely the query if you are not getting any requests or you are querying the wrong agents. That means work on the query and better research agents.

But if you are getting requests for partials or fulls, then rejected, it is the writing or execution of the idea - find some good beta readers.

~suki

blacbird said:

I thought that by using the term "manuscript" it was clear I wasn't speaking of a published "book". I never thought you referred to a published book as a "manuscript". Dumb silly me. I guess I can't even ask a simple question right.

caw

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Apparently not, since there have been substantive responses you are ignoring in order to snipe at my attempt to give context to the responses - next time I won't attempt to clarify or, really, bother to answer.

Silly me in thinking you actually wanted information instead of griping...

~suki

blacbird, when you're feeling this way--totally down in the dumps like it's never going to happen--that's often when it happens. Be enthused about the potential for your new query letter. Get some expert feedback (beware the sources though. This forum is full of great people. However, there are a few who mean well, but ... well, just use good judgment.), rewrite it and dig right back in. You'll be amazed.

Put your query up in the SYW, Bird. I just put mine up for the slaughter.

Tri

blacbird said:

Well, having outed myself via query, it has become abundantly obvious that I don't know what I'm doing in attempting to write fiction, which I have suspected for some time now. Hasn't been a very good day. I arrived home tonight to find the only other avocation I have, gardening, being destroyed by a hurricane-force windstorm, a summer's worth of work largely gone to waste. Time to be done with both writing and gardening, probably. Not much further point to either.

Hope others are doing better. But I'm done.

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Hey bb,

But don't you enjoy writing? Then it wasn't a waste, even if nobody bites the query.

And we don't want a caw-less forum!
gdm.

blacbird said:

Well, having outed myself via query, it has become abundantly obvious that I don't know what I'm doing in attempting to write fiction, which I have suspected for some time now. Hasn't been a very good day. I arrived home tonight to find the only other avocation I have, gardening, being destroyed by a hurricane-force windstorm, a summer's worth of work largely gone to waste. Time to be done with both writing and gardening, probably. Not much further point to either.

Hope others are doing better. But I'm done.

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Sorry to hear about your garden. But the good thing about plants is that they do grow back.

I took a peek at your query and I don't think your problem is that you don't know how to write fiction. I think you just haven't figured out how to write a query yet. Every writer goes through the same rite of passage, so you're not alone. I submitted two novels and got nothing but rejections before I figured out how to write a good query, and then I sold that third novel.

With a little work and research you can learn how to write a great query. I'll comment on your query and leave links to the things that helped me learn. Maybe they'll help you as well. I won't lie, it takes work, but if you're willing to put in the effort, you can dramatically improve your query writing skills.

blacbird said:

Hope others are doing better. But I'm done.

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Whoa, waitaminute. The manuscript and the query are two different creatures, and lots of well-known authors have expressed a discomfort, even outright hatred, of the query. It isn't indicative of your ability to write plots with multiple story arcs, or characters that develop through the prose, or riveting dialogue, etc.

It's indicative of your ability to make a pitch, a sales hook, and that is a horse of a different color.

Keep flying, bird. That query's not moribund, it's just limping a little.

Just put up my query again after ten no-gos. Come back and join me in Query Hell. Then when the squirrels nip us too hard, we can mob them together.

(Ooooh, look. I went over 2000 posts!)

blacbird said:

Well, having outed myself via query, it has become abundantly obvious that I don't know what I'm doing in attempting to write fiction, which I have suspected for some time now. Hasn't been a very good day. I arrived home tonight to find the only other avocation I have, gardening, being destroyed by a hurricane-force windstorm, a summer's worth of work largely gone to waste. Time to be done with both writing and gardening, probably. Not much further point to either.

Hope others are doing better. But I'm done.

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What others have said - I critiqued your query. And nothing about your query made me think you suck at writing fiction. Queries are different from manuscripts, and they're miserably tough to nail down. Good news is people here at AW in the SYW section help you figure the query out so you can publish that manuscript, not to make you turn your back and throw in the towel.

Now, I am very sorry about your garden. But I'd also like to see a revision of that query based on everyone's comments. I can't necessarily speak for everyone who critiques in the query forum, but I do it so I can see people succeed. Not so they'll give up.

Barrett said:

Whoa, waitaminute. The manuscript and the query are two different creatures, and lots of well-known authors have expressed a discomfort, even outright hatred, of the query. It isn't indicative of your ability to write plots with multiple story arcs, or characters that develop through the prose, or riveting dialogue, etc.

It's indicative of your ability to make a pitch, a sales hook, and that is a horse of a different color.

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For what it's worth, I've never been able to write a decent query letter in my entire career. As it happens, I got my foot in the door ages ago and by now don't write much of anything as a synopsis/query except for a bit that reads like back cover copy: Here's a character, here's the situation -- wonder what's gonna happen? I have a track record now, so publishers trust that I can turn in a publishable book even if what they see in advance is vague as hell.

Funny thing is, the publisher sends me back cover or flap copy which I always tweak and frequently rewrite -- and that happens to be a skill I have. Give me something and I'll fix it; tell me to start from scratch, and I'll drive myself nuts trying.

Unfortunately for new writers, a strong query is what's virtually always needed to get an agent or editor interested, so you need one and it has to be strong. You're likely to spend a lot more time on a single query than you did for the first couple chapters of your book.

Blacbird, you got some pretty good suggestions on your query thread, IMO.

It is not possible for everyone to learn to write an effective query letter. The quality of a query has little relation to the quality of the corresponding novel. At least a few agents claim to understand this, and some of those say they'll look past flawed queries if the story seems interesting enough. That's what partials are all about, right?

SPMiller said:

It is not possible for everyone to learn to write an effective query letter. The quality of a query has little relation to the quality of the corresponding novel. At least a few agents claim to understand this, and some of those say they'll look past flawed queries if the story seems interesting enough. That's what partials are all about, right?

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Right.

I just got my first request for a partial since January from an agent. I took a completely different approach to the query letter. I researched the agent's background and talked about that, briefly mentioning my book. Put yourself in the agent's shoes looking at that same canned query letter day after day. Gotta be boring. They'd rather read about themselves, I'm thinking.

Arkie said:

Right.

I just got my first request for a partial since January from an agent. I took a completely different approach to the query letter. I researched the agent's background and talked about that, briefly mentioning my book. Put yourself in the agent's shoes looking at that same canned query letter day after day. Gotta be boring. They'd rather read about themselves, I'm thinking.

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Sorry, but I have to disagree. Based on the agents I know/have talked to/have had/and have read the blogs of, most would prefer you get your story in there first.

I'm glad this one time worked for you but I think the odds are better if you put your premise and story summary up front.

Beth

SPMiller said:

It is not possible for everyone to learn to write an effective query letter. The quality of a query has little relation to the quality of the corresponding novel. At least a few agents claim to understand this, and some of those say they'll look past flawed queries if the story seems interesting enough. That's what partials are all about, right?

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I'll have to respectfully disagree here. As a writer, it's your job to communicate through words. You might not write a stellar query, but you should be able to describe your novel in a way that makes someone want to read it. Even if you have to go outside the box and try something unconventional. If you can write, you can learn how to write a decent query. They're not that hard. A pain, yes, but not that far removed from the novel.

And the quality of the query does indeed reflect on the novel. If your query is poorly written, contains obvious newbie mistakes, then the odds of your novel containing the same things are high. But if your query is well written, then the odds of the novel being that way are also high.

What agents will overlook are flaws that show a writer isn't great at queries, but can obviously write well. Those queries will have a spark of the novel in them, show the great idea even if it's bogged down in other stuff. The voice will probably be there, or something that shows the writer has something worth reading.

Pitching a novel isn't easy. But it's necessary.

The best practice is answering the question, "What is your story about?"

I've found that people have short attention spans, and if you don't have a great initial pitch, you'll lose their interest within seconds, and they'll change the subject. Why would an agent or publisher- used to seeing great writing- have any more patience with an awkward pitch?

Unfortunatley they don't.

If friends or family change the subject, then you've lost your pitch, and have to work on it.

For what it's worth, I stunk at the pitch, and eventually it got easier.

blacbird said:

Who actually believes that "anything good will eventually be published"?

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I do.


There are a certain number of publishing slots in a year.

All of the good books will get one.

None of the crap books will get one.

There are more publishing slots than there are good books. These slots will go to mediocre books. Among them it's just luck.