Frazzled by Amazon: Which books on writing/editing to buy?

Andreya · Jul 27, 2009

Hi.

I've been browsing the Amazon to get the current Writer's Markets & such, & came across some potentially good books too - not sure how many of those to get

Writer's Market US, 2010 eludes me - everywhere else it says the release date is June 29th, 2009 - & on Amazon.co.uk (who I intended to buy from as I've got a voucher) it says August 27th? (How come?) Has anyone got it yet?
No idea how to contact them either, as their system won't let me.. (they want an order number-??)

I also considered Writer's Market UK & Handbook or Yearbook 2010 - which of these three would be best, or is it best to get 2 or more?

I have an old WIP to edit & rewrite, so I considered three books by Sol Stein: [FONT=&quot]Solutions for Novelists: Secrets of a Master Editor aka [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"How to Grow a Novel" (in US), [/FONT] Solutions for Writers: Practical Craft Techniques for Fiction and Non-fiction and Stein on Writing: A Master Editor of Some of the Most Successful Writers of Our Century Shares His Craft Techniques and Strategies - Get one (which one?) or all three?

[FONT=&quot]Also, I'm getting [/FONT] How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy [FONT=&quot]by Orson Scott Card, do I also need [/FONT] Characters and Viewpoint (The elements of fiction writing) or any others?
[FONT=&quot]
How about Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, Second Edition: How to Edit Yourself Into Printby Renni Browne & Dave King
I'm fine with writing beginnings & endings, & some middle, but once I know the story I get bored. So I'd probably need a book like 'How to not get bored with your WIP/novel/short story and actually finish it' (?)
[FONT=&quot]
Wasn't so sure about (book and workbook) [/FONT]Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass or [/FONT] Plot and Structure: Techniques and Exercises for Crafting a Plot that Grips Readers from Start to Finish (Write Great Fiction) [FONT=&quot]by James Scott Bell (Author)

[FONT=&quot]What about "[/FONT]Hooked: Write Fiction That Grabs Readers on Page One and Never Lets Them Go" (Paperback) by Les Edgerton (Author) - not so fun to read as Sol stein or Orson Scott though-?
[/FONT]

& Has anyone read Novel Shortcuts by Laura Whitcomb, or Donald Maass’s book The Career Novelist or Jeff Herman’s Guide to Book Publishers, Editors & Literary Agents?

Would you recommend any of these? Or any others?

/sorry for the funky fonts, the copy-paste from Amazon apparently does strange things too../

Kathleen42 · Jul 27, 2009

I woudl definitely get Self-Editing for Fiction Writers. If you read it before you start writing, you can avoid some bad habits and headaches common to aspiring writers.

I know a lot of people are fond of Characters& Viewpoint but, to be honest, I found it very Mickey Mouse. It almost seemed like it was geared to someone who wanted to write but who had not read many books.

Andreya · Jul 27, 2009

Thanks!

I'll put it on the list then!

I was thinking to maybe get one by Sol Stein (or two?) and How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy by Orson Scott Card then? (Is that one better?)

I've read A LOT of books - it's easier to read than edit/rewrite though

happywritermom · Jul 27, 2009

The Art of Fiction by John Gardener is an oldie (He died long ago), but a goodie.

K_Woods · Jul 27, 2009

How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy still has good information, but a chunk of it is dated to obsolescence, too (as I found to my dismay when rereading it a few weeks ago). It was first printed in the early 90s, and the last revision was apparently around 2000. I couldn't even tell what got changed -- it still reads like it's from the early 90s.

JustJess · Jul 27, 2009

I own waaay too many of these books. That said, Plot and Structure: Techniques and Exercises for Crafting a Plot that Grips Readers from Start to Finish (Write Great Fiction)by James Scott Bell (Author) is one of my top 5.

Kathleen42 · Jul 27, 2009

JustJess said:
I own waaay too many of these books. That said, Plot and Structure: Techniques and Exercises for Crafting a Plot that Grips Readers from Start to Finish (Write Great Fiction)by James Scott Bell (Author) is one of my top 5.

I actually really liked this one too.

Andreya · Jul 27, 2009

Thanks!

Can you guys be a little more specific, as to what you liked & learnt?

I've read a lot of stuff online, so I wouldn't want to repeat too much of that info (happened with some nutrition books I got.. don't ask..)

JustJess & everyone else, maybe you can also list your Top 5?

K_Woods, was the dated stuff with regard to current magazines etc? And was apart from that the book still worth it or not?

Big thanks once again everyone!

JRTurner · Jul 27, 2009

I agree, Self-Editing for Fiction Writers is a must have.

I would suggest that you pay to get the Writer's Guide online. It's constantly updated during the year you "subscribe" to and I find it's much easier to search than thumbing through so many entries. But, I'm on the computer a lot, so it might be a personal preference.

Alice Orr's "No More Rejections" gives 50 secrets (practical "tips") on how to avoid being rejected--very good job of it too.

How to Write a Damng Good Novel II--the first one is sort of basic, but the second is great for learning to plot.

Beyond that, I think it's more a matter of what you need to strengthen and that's a personal thing

Warmly,
Jenny

shawkins · Jul 27, 2009

I really liked Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass. To me the examples and the "couldn't you put more of X somewhere?!?!" type rhetorical questions did, in fact, lead to me putting more of X (dramatic tension, character building, one-liners...) somewhere.

My all-time favorite is The Art of Fiction by John Gardner.

Kathleen42 · Jul 27, 2009

I feeling super sweet and nice this evening so I'll elaborate.

Plot and Structure: Techniques and Exercises for Crafting a Plot that Grips Readers from Start to Finish (Write Great Fiction)by James Scott Bell had some very good advice on working with a three act structure. As someone who primarily dealt in short stories and was trying her hand at a novel. it helped me figure out how to organize my beginning, middle, and end ideas and how one should move from one act to another. I found the analogy of doors particularly helpful. I wouldn't recommend it for literary or character driven fiction but I found it helpful for UF. It had a fair amount of things I could have figured out without reading a book but I did find the three act bits sufficient enough that I didn't mind having paid for it.

I can't find my copy of Self-Editing for Fiction Writers (craaaaapppppp I hope I didn't lose it when I moved) but I recall a lot of good advice about dialogue tags and beats and not over explaining things to the reader. It was a good book to help trim (or avoid) bloated prose.

Blue Sky · Jul 27, 2009

Self-Editing for Fiction Writers is clear and concise, but not too short. In the second edition, the authors clarify misunderstandings they noticed among readers of the first edition. I found the chapter examples and explanations clear and useful.

Chapters: Show and Tell, Characterization and Exposition, Point of View, Proportion, Dialogue Mechanics, See How It Sounds, Interior Monologue, Easy Beats, Breaking Up is Easy to Do, Once is Usually Enough, Sophistication, Voice.The authors include nice checklists at the end of each chapter, and exercises as well. Oh, and more recommended books at the end.

Found this one while browsing in a used bookstore and it's my fiction editing fav. The authors bring all the parts together quite well.

JustJess · Jul 27, 2009

Immediate Fiction by James Cleaver
Simplicity. Great introduction to what creates a compelling read: want+obstacle=conflict. Which must be on.every.page. Yes there's more to the book than this but it's inspiring in it's clarity.

Plot & Structure by James Scott Bell
Great for guidance in building a coherent story without being too restrictive or formulaic. For instance, Chapter 10-Plotting Systems has tips for outliners, non-outliners, or for those that are little bit of both. No assumptions are made about the reader.

Flogging the Quill by Ray Rhamey
I actually preferred it to Self-Editing for Fiction Writers he has a site (same name as book) you can check out to get a better idea of what he's about.

The Fire in Fiction by Donald Maas
Most helpful when you have a first draft to work with. Each chapter ends with a list of "practical tools" which are exercises that are applicable to your current work-in-progress.

I also enjoyed:

On Writing by Stephen King. The first half is his story, the second half is writing advice. A good choice for those who write stories based on situation and prefer to wing it rather than plan it.

and for humor and some sound advice, I loved: How NOT to Write a Novel by Mittelmark & Newman

Hope this helps!

Andreya · Jul 27, 2009

Thanks everyone!

I've read some stuff on the Dramatica website (& some other screenwriting sites) on the three-part structure.. (& tried to implement it already) I'm okay with '3 parts', have had troubles with 'linking it all together seamlessly' though, the many scenes & options etc.. (& yup, first had problems with gaps & then with overexplaining stuff too.. that's when the WIP got boring, for me & the poor unsuspecting betas last year..)

What I like about Novel Shortcuts by Laura Whitcomb http://www.writersdigest.com//article/novel_shortcuts_excerpt , she seems to give 'checklists' to check if a scene has what needs to be done before.. I guess I wonder if the rest of her book is as helpful, or if similar stuff is in these other books too? (one Amazon review seems bad though http://www.amazon.com/dp/1582975671/?tag=absolutewritedm-20 )

I can come up with wacky plot ideas & tension & twists, just need help rearranging & arranging them proper & filling in the 'dots' & not over-explaining as another extreme.. As for outline or not, I'm a little bit of both.. some outline, & then 'winging it'.. (sometimes completely differently than what started) I do have a first draft but it's very rough in places.. (with some gaps & some overblown prose, draft zero was better regarding that)

if everything is spelled out I get bored - what to do then? (Does Stephen King tell?)

JRTurner, I'm definitely planning to get Writer's Market Deluxe - which is both printed copy & online subscription.. (Not sure if WM UK is online too..? gotta check) I'm online a lot too, but prefer flipping pages occasionally.. (& being able to mark relevant stuff with pencil)

Kathleen42, thanks for elaborating! Indeed, you are super sweet!!

I wouldn't recommend it for literary or character driven fiction but I found it helpful for UF.

Not sure what UF is?
My WIP is SF romance, sort of..

Self-Editing for Fiction Writers must be the most recent edition then.. if so many of you like it & found it helpful in editing, it probably must be good.. I do have a clue about all these chapter titles as I read them, there's probably more than just basic stuff, right?

JustJess, big thanks!!

Will check out those books! & other suggestions too!
Oh, and is Stephen King's book scary? (I'm too scared by his fiction but have read good writing advice by him elsewhere!)

K_Woods · Jul 27, 2009

Andreya said:
K_Woods, was the dated stuff with regard to current magazines etc? And was apart from that the book still worth it or not?

A lot of it was in regard to magazine markets, yes. But there were some other things in there that rankled me. Can't remember them off the top of my head, and a cursory glance isn't yielding much either. I'd say get it used or from the library if you can, because it's not a lot of book for fifteen bucks and chunks of it are out of date.

Kathleen42 · Jul 28, 2009

Andreya said:
Kathleen42, thanks for elaborating! Indeed, you are super sweet!!
Not sure what UF is?
My WIP is SF romance, sort of..

Self-Editing for Fiction Writers must be the most recent edition then.. if so many of you like it & found it helpful in editing, it probably must be good.. I do have a clue about all these chapter titles as I read them, there's probably more than just basic stuff, right?

UF is Urban Fantasy.

The thing that sets Self-Editing... apart are the examples and end of chapter exercises. We've all heard things like show vs tell, using beats in dialogue, don't head hop, etc, but the book provides great examples (often from well known books).

Andreya · Jul 28, 2009

Thanks!

K_Woods, our local libraries here don't have such books & we're not able to buy used from Amazon somehow yet. (As if we were in Timbuktu, not Europe?) So that's part of the problem, yeah.. If I could see them first it would be much easier.. I was totally much more comfortable to buy Jenna's awesome book once I read it online & saw how truly awesome it was!

Kathleen_42, thanks! UF sounds interesting! I wonder how you see the book as not helpful for literary or character driven fiction but helpful for UF - isn't all fiction at least somewhat character driven? I don't have many literary aspirations at this point of time, I do hope to have all my books at least partly character-driven?

So many books, so little shelf space..

Kathleen42 · Jul 28, 2009

All books are at least partially character driven but some are more focused on character evolution than plot. I think Bell's book is a bit more targeted towards people who write genre fiction (urban fantasy, crime, mystery,. horror, sci-fi. etc) .

Just my thoughts. I could be talking complete rubbish.

Andreya · Jul 28, 2009

Thanks. I'm totally interested in what you have to say, that's why I'm asking!

Sounds like a good match then, as I'd also LOVE to learn to write a good mystery!

Have you ever read articles on the Holly Lisle site? (That's where most of my knowledge on characterization & conflict-driven plot has come from..) I actually printed some stuff out, & from SF & romance writing sites too.. Have a big binder of that already..

I can see how a mystery might be more plot-driven (or not), probably depends on the book.. I suppose character-driven=characters & their inner & outer conflicts lead the plot, not character-driven=other things that happen regardless of characters, 'facts' that they can't change etc?

I had to google it up to read more about this! Thanks for bringing up an interesting point!
Came up with lots of great links!

According to this 'test', I can do both, but it was very easy for the old WIP..
http://www.writersstore.com/article.php?articles_id=691 (not sure how reliable the test is though) maybe I am a bit more random & disorganized than your average 'action plot' writer.. So I guess I'm trying to find 'help' for messy writers..

Kathleen42 · Jul 28, 2009

I've actually never of the Holly Lisle site - I'll have to check it out.

Phaeal · Jul 28, 2009

Self-Editing, by Browne and King, definitely.

Another of my favorites is Beginnings, Middles and Ends, by Nancy Kress. Good for priming your structural thinking pump.

Bird by Bird, by Anne Lamott. My motivational Bible.

Elizabeth Lyon's Manuscript Makeover is a good editing tool if you like lots of checklists to apply to your WIP.

Finally, The Fiction Editor, The Novel and the Novelist, by Thomas McCormack. I look on this as an "advanced" text -- he's fond of neologisms, but his ideas about deep structure and distance in POV and character "circuitry" are very stimulating.

gonovelgo · Jul 28, 2009

Kathleen42 said:
I woudl definitely get Self-Editing for Fiction Writers. If you read it before you start writing, you can avoid some bad habits and headaches common to aspiring writers.

I know a lot of people are fond of Characters& Viewpoint but, to be honest, I found it very Mickey Mouse. It almost seemed like it was geared to someone who wanted to write but who had not read many books.

I'll second both of these. Self-Editing for Fiction Writers is really great, but I was similarly disappointed by Characters & Viewpoint.

Andreya · Jul 28, 2009

Thanks!

This is Holly Lisle's site for writers: http://hollylisle.com/fm/
I read her articles a few years ago & they were very helpful to start my novel, do the characterization etc. I see she even has a free e-book now.. I took a brief look & there's even a bit on how to finish a book, not much though, I could use more tips..

I checked some other links on character-driven vs. plot-driven & it seems character-driven seems easier for me, at least I have more experience & info on that..
So basically I would now ask, as someone who currently leans more toward character-driven, would the above books still be helpful, & which of them would be most helpful?

Do they actually teach you how to plot or connect random disorganized scenes better?

ToddWBush · Jul 28, 2009

Another plug here for the Donald Maass book, Writing the Breakout Novel. And On Writing by King as well. Both are very good.

Andreya · Jul 28, 2009

Thanks!

Does On Writing by Stephen King offer more than this: http://www.positivityblog.com/index...ings-top-7-tips-for-becoming-a-better-writer/? It's very helpful, & I started cutting stuff out already.. Basically, I wonder if there's more of such good stuff inside the book?

Frazzled by Amazon: Which books on writing/editing to buy?

in denial

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crushing on fictional characters

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crushing on fictional characters

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crushing on fictional characters

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