Looking for opinions...

[Christine N.]

Hey all, I've been thinking lately (don't worry, I won't hurt myself), and I need all your educated opinions.

My first book is slated to come out this year. I've subbed my next book, which is the first in a possible series, not the sequel to my first book, to my publisher. They have right of first refusal. Now, my publisher is small, but so far they've done a bang-up job. I've gotten a ton of personal service from them, they are easy to get a hold of and I get to have an opinion.

BUT... they're small. So they don't have fabulous distribution like bigger publishers. They ARE working on it, I get updates from the publicity department. What I'm thinking is do I want to go after bigger pubs now that I've got my foot in the door? Like re-start the agent search with my new and improved resume??

I'm torn about it. On one hand, the bigger pubs will require that I do less work to get readers. On the other, I have this great little publisher who's really worked like a dog to get their names on the map.

Opinions??

[scribbler1382]

Like re-start the agent search with my new and improved resume?

You mention the publisher, but you don't say anything about a current agent. You do have one, right? If you do, they should be advising you on stuff like this. If you don't have one, GET ONE RIGHT NOW. <ahem> :whip:

[azbikergirl]

On one hand, the bigger pubs will require that I do less work to get readers.

:Shrug: Why do you say that?

I was under the impression that newbies have to do quite a lot of work to help with the task of selling books, regardless of the size of the publisher. Check out http://www.bookpromotion101.com/bp101/ Probably someone who's actually been there can set me straight if that's not the case.

[brinkett]

From what I've read, authors would be wise to spend time promoting their book no matter how large or small their publisher. You don't have to, but it's better to.

[SRHowen]

From what I've read, authors would be wise to spend time promoting their book no matter how large or small their publisher. You don't have to, but it's better to.

Money on publicists (if you are going to get one), and author signings (travel etc) is better spent on a second book. Most people go to an author signing because they have read something by that author (their first book), looking for something else to read by that author. Not to just get the author to sign the book they already have, so the signing really does nothing to increase books sales.

And the idea that you have to do all the leg work even with a big or small publisher is how people end with you know who. (PA)

Some things to do--contact your local paper, see if they will do a human interest story on you on the release date of your book. Your local library may have a book club listing for your area whose members might be interested in reading your book or having you do a reading. Local book stores where you don't have to drive far or book a hotel may be more interested in doing an event for you--a reading or signing if you like, because you are local provided your book is avaliable by normal means to them. (returnable with a discount)

[brinkett]

Money on publicists (if you are going to get one), and author signings (travel etc) is better spent on a second book.

And the idea that you have to do all the leg work even with a big or small publisher is how people end with you know who. (PA)

Nowhere in my post did I suggest that authors should do signings or hire a publicist, nor did I say that an author has to do all the leg work. I merely said that it's in an author's best interest to spend time on promotion, but didn't specify what form that promotion should take or how much time should be spent. That's for the author and publisher to decide.

[aruna]

I'm torn about it. On one hand, the bigger pubs will require that I do less work to get readers. On the other, I have this great little publisher who's really worked like a dog to get their names on the map.

Opinions??

OK, for what it's worth, here's my opinion:

Stay where you are. The big pubs might not REQUIRE you to do work on publicity, but if you don't you're likely to go under. They will have their flavour of the season who will get most of their budget, and the smaller authors are left to fend for themselves, to sink or swim. And in todays crowded market, you're more likely to sink, regardless of how good your book is.

I say this, because I WAS published by a big publisher and after three books I see it all very differently. It's better by far to let that small publisher put all their love and effort into you, and build you over several books. Because unless you're an instant bestseller, the big pub will drop you like a hot potato after a book or two or three.

Your small publisher sounds just great; I'd stay with them if I were you. They mught be going places, and you can go with them.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck, whatever you decide!

[Garpy]

I'm with a large publisher in the UK....waiting in their release queue to be released in hardback next June, and all I can say from my experience thus far is that being with a big publisher is a very demoralising experience. Being a newbie author, I feel like the lowest form of life. My editor, takes an eternity to respond (if at all) to my emails, has taken months and months to get round to reading re-drafts. I'm wary that come publication there will be absolutely zero marketing and this first novel of mine will sink without a trace.

Of course I might be wrong about the last point....they might actually finally get round to marketing it as the month for release draws near, but given how slow and unresponsive they've been so far, I'm not holding my breath.

I think being a small-fry in a big publisher would probably amount to the same potential sales as being a big-fry in a small publisher....a smaller publisher has less access to mainstream distribution, they'll work harder with what they have. Whilst the large publisher will probably bang your book out there to its usual buyers without any fanfare at all....and in all likleyhood, it will get lost amonst all the other big, high promoeted releases.

[Christine N.]

Thank you :) Aruna and Garpy, after thinking about it, I've decided you're right. I just wanted to hear someone else say it, I guess.

Scribbler - no, I don't have an agent. My pub's contract is such that it's pretty straighforward. I get whatever changes I want with just an e-mail, and any questions I ever had about it I've had answered on these forums. Heck, I don't even have a lawyer.

Azbikergirl - what I meant was that a bigger publisher has larger distribution, so I'd get a wider circulation without have to personally do more work. I'm planning on doing promotion myself - I've already started the wheels turning with my local B&N about doing my launch in their strore.

I guess I'll stay where I get the love :) Thanks again!

[Cathy C]

Christina,


There are any number of large publishers that will give you the love, so don't use that as a reason. I talk by e-mail and on the phone with both of my editors anytime I wish. It depends on the editor, not the house.

Now, I'm pubbed with a co-author in both small press and large -- in different genres. I love both houses and their staffs. But I went to them for very different reasons. Our first book is an historical fiction about railroading in Colorado. It's a niche market, no two ways about it. We've done quite well with it considering the small market must include people who like railroads, WHO ALSO like historical accounts, WHO ALSO like fictional retellings. It wouldn't have been bought by a national publisher. The market just isn't there. But at the small house, it's one of their best sellers.

You have to stop and think what is best of the BOOK, not just you and your ego. You asked the right question: Is the publisher the right place for the BOOK? Now, if the publisher has an option, then you'll have to offer the sequel to them. But you can get an agent at this point, if the book has shown decent sales. When you're querying, tell the agent your sales figures, plus any awards or rankings at booksellers. This information is extremely important to an agent, because it tells your viability as a money-maker for them.

At the very least, an agent can negotiate a better advance with the same publisher for the second book, or force them to match an offer from a larger house. Either way is good for your pocketbook, which is good for the book!

Good luck either way!

[Jamesaritchie]

You'll get at least as much promotion from a large publisher as from a small one, and either way, you'll have to do the job yourself. But at a small publisher there's no one to do the job of promotion except you.

In the end, the most common reason books don't sell isn't lack of promotion, it's public disinterest. Very few writers receive much in the way of promotion until after the book starts selling fairly well. Once it does start selling, the publisher will then put money behind it.

All the publisher can really do for a new writer is get a reasonable number of copies of a new novel out where the public can buy it. At this point, word of mouth either takes over or it doesn't. If it does, if a few people buy the book and start raving about it to everyone they know, sales take off. If they don't rave about it, sales go nowhere.

Love really doesn't lay a part, large publisher or small. And most small publishers can't even afford to send out nearly as many review copies as should be sent. And large or small, publishers buy a novel because they think there's a chance it will sell well. Small publishers can't afford to put money behind a book, and lack enough marketing people to do the job, anyway. You'll have to do all the work yourself.

Large publishers, if nothing else, will get more than enough review copies to all the right places, and will have a distribution system that gives word of mouth a chance to turn the book into a real seller.

For new novels, promotion doesn't seem all that big a deal, anyway. Over the decades, publishers have tried pouring promotion novels behind a large number of new novels, and the same number still fail to attract the public's interest. This means it only makes sense to wait and see whether or not a book has legs before throwing good money after bad.

Love won't get the job done. Go with the largest publisher who will have you, let them get all the necessary review copies out, let them make sure the book is readily avaiable to the reading public, then do your part. Once the publisher has done this, and you've done your part, that's it. From then on, it's all up to the reading public. Either they will love your book, and talk about it to every reading frined they have, or they won't like it and it will sink.

[aruna]

All the publisher can really do for a new writer is get a reasonable number of copies of a new novel out where the public can buy it. At this point, word of mouth either takes over or it doesn't. If it does, if a few people buy the book and start raving about it to everyone they know, sales take off. If they don't rave about it, sales go nowhere.



It's true that only word of mouth can make the difference between a book that sinks and a book that swims. But "getting it out there" where the public can buy it just isn't enough these days. I hate to always use myself as an example, but I think the following story illustrates what I haev to say better that telling (I am a stryteller after all!)

The first day my first novel came inthe stores, I was naturally most excited. I went into the local equivalent of Borders all ready to see them all streaming in and grabbing it and fighting to get to the cashier!:)

Of course, that's not what happened. My book sat on a shelf at the side, next to the likes of Margaret Atwood and whoever was the author of the season back then (1999). On the tables near the door, were the new "bestsellers" (They weren't bestsellers yet; but that's what they are labelled, by dint of being placed on that table. Some of them had just been released on that day.)

Among the new releases that day was a book by Tony Parsons, Man and Boy, published by the same publisher as mine. Tony Parsons is and was a weekly (or daily) columnist with the Daily Mail. His was a household name. A popular writer. It was his first novel as well; and my publisher had decided that, since there was name recognition for his name and not for mine, they would back him; mine could fend for itself. That is the kind of publishing decision made evry day by the boig publishers; it has nothing to do with the book itself, its quality, or even its potential as a seller.

A customer, walking into a big high street bookstore, sees lots an dlots of books. He'll only buy one; is itlikely he'll take a chance on a novel he's never heard of, or by someone he's read in the daily Mail for years?

When people talk of word of mouth they usually forget that, for word of mouth to happen, there needs to be an initial momentum. If only five people bought myu book on that first day, it was not going to swim - no matter how much they liked it, or how much they recommended it on. They DID like it, and they DID recommend it further; but because it never had that intitial momentum, it was not a bestseller. It was, instead, a long seller; it's still on the bookshelves, and last time I looked, a few weeks ago, it had an amazon ranking of around 6000, which is pretty good for abook that was never a bestseller.

But for a big company, that just isn't good enough. For a smal company, it would have been great. Tont Parsons, meanwhile, is an international bestselling author.

I'm not complaining; just trying to exlainthat word of mouth isn't as self explanatory as it seems. As for love: what I've find is that the amount of love (ie: passion) that a publisher puts into a book is exactly a measure of what will become of that book; love DOES matter. If they treat it as just a number, that's what it will be.

My French publishers were fulll of passion for that very same book. Even the usually reticent sales and mareketing department were full of that passion. They put all that passion into the release of it, and in that half-year it sold 100 000 copies and was in the French top ten for all of July and August 2000. And it wasn't a huge publisher; just a medium sized one.

[Jamesaritchie]

Just getting it out there where the public can buy it still works just fine, and this is demonstrated each and every year. I have yet to see a year where a number of bestsellers don't come from novels that are treated simply as numbers by the publisher.


Of course it helps to have a name people recognize. But in plain fact, novels sell because the public wants to read them, big publisher or small. And if a big publisher releases your book, there should be a lot more than five people buying it.

And just because a book was just released that day in no way means it wasn't already selling very well. A book can be the bestselling novel in the world months before it's released. Pre-release orders are counted as sales, and always have been.

This most often happens with writers who already have a recognizable name, but it also happens with complete unknowns. The last time I saw it happen was with "The Rule of Four" by Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason.

There's nothing wrong with a publisher pouring dollars into your book, and it can help, but books flop miserably every year that have been backed in every possible way a publisher can back them, and books succeed wildly each and every year that are treated as nothing but numbers.

If a big publisher releases your book, gets it in bookstores, and it doesn't sell, it's almost always because the reading public didn't like it enough to talk about it.

There are always exceptions, always good books that slip through the cracks, but it's simply wrong to say that a book treated as a number by a big publisher will end up being only a number. It's simply too easy to find numerous books, each and every year, where this didn't happen.

Granted, sometimes a publisher can generate very good sales for a book by putting everything they have behind it, but this can not only fail miserably, it can sometimes damage a writer permanently. If large numbers of readers buy a book only because the publisher backs it, and that book then turns out to be bad, the writer's next book is doomed.

I know stories like yours happen, but I also know books treated like numbers by big publishers take off and hit the bestseller lists each and every year.

[aruna]

also know books treated like numbers by big publishers take off and hit the bestseller lists each and every year.

I bet, that when this happens, it's becuase the author put a whole lot of energy into promoting it; getting those first buyers to take a chance with THAT book! Unfortunately, I left it all to the publisher...

If a big publisher releases your book, gets it in bookstores, and it doesn't sell, it's almost always because the reading public didn't like it enough to talk about it.


If a book by a new author doesn't sell well in the first couple of days it's not because it's a bad book, or the public didn't like it; it's invariably becuase it has an unappealing cover, title and/or blurb. After all, if nobody, or too few, tries it, they can't tell! ANd the first few days determine the next few weeks.

My editor always complained that there are just too many books coming out each and every week; the public is swamped with books and just don't know what to buy.

[maestrowork]

I find the whole idea of "word of mouth" very scary. ;)


I want control, darnit!

[Christine N.]

Well, Maestro, you're pretty much in the same boat I am. You have a different publisher, but they're about the same size. What do you think? I am really interested in all viewpoints.

[maestrowork]

My publisher doesn't have "first refusal right." So my situation is slightly different -- PLUS I haven't finished with my WIP, but an agent might be interested in seeing it once it's done. I don't know.

The way I see it, I really like my publisher. They're very upfront and personal, and that's something I think BIG houses might lack. Also, I have lots of control over things like covers, blurbs, layout, etc. My publisher is very attentive, and they usually answer my questions immediately (within 24 hours) and they work with me closely. I am such a control freak. :D The downside of small publishers is of course marketing and distribution. My publisher is working very hard and I have no doubt that they will succeed. The books are all of very high quality -- it shows that my publisher is very serious about this business, and I think they will grow.

My first book is a harder sell (not high concept or well-defined genre), and I think a small press is perfect for it. My second book would have a broader appeal, and I might consider at least getting an agent for it. Who knows? I haven't really thought about it. Right now, I just want to get the darn thing written. ;)

I have worked with BIG companies and small companies and I know the advantages and problems with both big and small. Publishing is no different, IMHO. It's basically the same "personal touch/control" vs. "resources and opportunities." I think you really need to know a few things about yourself:

1. your comfort level -- how much personal attention and control you need
2. where are you in your career? As a first-time author, I think I'm better off with a small press. But as my career takes off, I will have to reexamine everything.
3. what is best for your book?

[Cathy C]

by aruna: (They weren't bestsellers yet; but that's what they are labelled, by dint of being placed on that table. Some of them had just been released on that day.)



Actually, this isn't quite true, aruna. What a lot of people fail to understand is that for a book to become a "bestseller", not a single copy has to be sold TO THE PUBLIC. All of the lists -- from the NYTimes, to USA Today, BookScan, PW, etc. -- they draw their numbers from book orders, not sales to the individual walking into their local Barnes & Noble. Bestsellers lists require "spike sales," meaning that the book has to have sold 10,000 or 100,000 or a million by the end of the week. Of course, there's no possible way for every little brick-and-mortar house to report actual sales that soon, so the lists are based on what the bookstore ordered from the publisher. It's THOSE sales, between the publisher and the distributor/wholesaler/bookstore that makes a book hit the lists.

So yeah, it probably WAS already a bestseller. Just FYI! :D

[Aconite]

(I think you know this, but in case you don't, I'll mention that having to offer your current publisher your next book for consideration doesn't mean you have to take any offer they make you.)

Going with a bigger publisher for your next book could help your current small publisher, if publicity generated by your new book sparked interest in your old one. It doesn't have to be a zero sum (win/lose) game.

[Christine N.]

Thanks Maestro. :) That's what I thought.

On the other side, it IS a Middle Grade book, so the advantage I have over adult novelists (not novelists that ARE adults, you know) is that I can do school visits. That's the biggest thing I want to work on - putting together a school program.

Ugh. I still don't know what to do.

[maestrowork]

I agree with Aconite... if you sign with a big house and your second book sells, it will only help your current publisher, who is still selling your first book.

Also, your current publisher has first refusal right, correct? If they like your book and accept it, then your question would be moot, isn't it? Or do I have it wrong, that first refusal doesn't = first acceptance?

[Christine N.]

Nope, they have the right to refuse or accept the book, and I have the right to accept or refuse their contract. So far I haven't seen anything that would warrant me NOT taking it. At this point, I suppose, the distribution question is the only thing that I worry about. And by October, when my first book is supposed to be released, that may have changed. We've a long list of reviewers to send books to, and I know that dozens of press releases will go out.

Sigh. Perhaps this is something I'll have to wait and decide upon after the first book hits shelves. I don't expect to hear from my publisher about the next book much before that.

[Cathy C]

Wellll, the distribution is one issue. But a good advance is another. Are you getting one from the small publisher (in the thousands of $$ for a second book with a good track record on the first?) That's something you can get from a large one that a small pub sometimes can't offer.
If it's a solid concept in a hot genre that a publisher thinks will do well, I wouldn't think that an advance of $5,000 to $10,000 is unreasonable for a second book.

Just something to consider! :D

[James D. Macdonald]

That's where having a knowlegeable agent will come in Very Handy Indeed, to help you weigh the pros and cons and guide you through the minefields.

[aruna]

Actually, this isn't quite true, aruna. What a lot of people fail to understand is that for a book to become a "bestseller", not a single copy has to be sold TO THE PUBLIC. All of the lists -- from the NYTimes, to USA Today, BookScan, PW, etc. -- they draw their numbers from book orders, not sales to the individual walking into their local Barnes & Noble. Bestsellers lists require "spike sales," meaning that the book has to have sold 10,000 or 100,000 or a million by the end of the week. Of course, there's no possible way for every little brick-and-mortar house to report actual sales that soon, so the lists are based on what the bookstore ordered from the publisher. It's THOSE sales, between the publisher and the distributor/wholesaler/bookstore that makes a book hit the lists.

So yeah, it probably WAS already a bestseller. Just FYI! :D

Interesting! And the issue is even more complicated...

In fact, the word "bestseller" in a SHOP means nothing. The positions on the "bestseller" table or shelf are actually PURCHASED: by the publisher! As well as the "Book of the Week" and the "Reduced price" offers and the "3 for 2" offers. I don't know if that's the case in the US, but it's well known here, at least in the industry, if not by the public. Oh, and also the books in the windows. All these are prime positions are subsidized by publishers pushing a particular book. As a new author, if you are not in one of those positions, you already have a penalty start.

I just believe that all new books are not born equal... I know that as a book buyer, and I am fairly typical, I am unlikely to buy a book I never heard of by an unknown author , unless something on the cover really grabs me. (That happened recently: the blurb sounded as if it could be written for my own current book, and I had to buy and read it!) New books by new authors, placed on a back shelf somewhere, have to overcome huge hurdles (not least, higher prices) in order to be bought in the first days and weeks - and those first days and weeks determine everything. After about two months, your chance is over, unless something remarkable happens, like a celebrity stumbling over it by accident, and raving!

However, I am speaking about the UK. Perhaps it's different in the US.

My experience is that big publishers are really only interested in you if you become a really big seller; if not, their heartbeat quickly slows down toan alarming rate. Sales that might be great for a smaller pulisher, or might have been great for a big publisher 15 years ago, are no longer interesting to that big publisher today. My last agent always reminded me of how quick those publishers are to drop an author who does not become such a big seller, and then it's hard to get back inagain, as other (big) publsihesr consider you a failure, and you have abad record in the bookstores. the only thing left, really, is to change your name.

So it does need careful consideration. I am now in a position where I may have to make such a decision myself in a few weeks or months, and at the moment I am very much biased against the big conglomorates. I prefer a smaller, but strong house with a more individual profile, a house that can take risks because it;s not all led by sales and marketing, but by authorial instinct...

[Cathy C]

In fact, the word "bestseller" in a SHOP means nothing. The positions on the "bestseller" table or shelf are actually PURCHASED: by the publisher! As well as the "Book of the Week" and the "Reduced price" offers and the "3 for 2" offers. I don't know if that's the case in the US, but it's well known here, at least in the industry, if not by the public. Oh, and also the books in the windows. All these are prime positions are subsidized by publishers pushing a particular book. As a new author, if you are not in one of those positions, you already have a penalty start

Right you are, aruna! Well, at least to an extent. A lot of writers (and most consumers) don't understand that every single square inch of space in a bookstore is bought and paid for by the publishers. All of the tables, those little stands with an author's whole collection of books (like the Harry Potter ones now springing up everywhere), placement on the end caps of shelves and the way the title is displayed -- every one of those positions costs money from the publisher. The bookseller gets very little choice on where a book is placed in the store, other than arranging the books ON a table for attractiveness and their window display. For every book that is placed on a shelf with the whole cover showing, the bookstore has lost the ability to shelve four to five books with the spine showing in the same location, so those are extra books that the bookstore has to keep in the back.

But don't think that it's not a completely equal pairing. The publishers don't just expect placement in the store. They expect the store to actually WORK to sell those titles that they have paid extra for. So the display must be attractive and try to grab the eye of the person wandering by. They have to make the casual shopper pause by forcing them to go around the display. The books on the "bestseller's table", while it's true that it has little meaning to the bookstore, has a great deal of meaning to the publisher. The publisher of The DaVinci Code will jump all over the bookseller if they allow local author Aunt Mabel to purchase a space on that same table. The bestseller's table or rack is, by common agreement among the publishers, reserved for those who have actually reached a list of some sort.

Now, the bookseller is often allowed to have some leeway for holidays or local celebrations, and it's accounted for in the bookseller agreement. So, the bookseller might have a "theme" for the winter holiday season, and place holiday books on a single table, regardless of their standing on the lists, and that's just a freebie to the publishers.

But let's say that one particular bookseller chain shop doesn't spend the time to sell the publisher's book. The bestseller table just has stacks of books in no particular order, with all the care of the bargain bin. If those books don't sell, but sales in that store haven't changed, and the book sold in every other store because of the effort the other stores took, then that particular bookseller will have to give a credit back to the publisher for the unsold books. The credit can be either future high-end placement, or a lesser charge for the same placement, but it is all very carefully tracked.

This whole business of selling books is very scientific and the terms of the agreements can be very confusing. It's why there are only a very few distributors of books in the U.S. The money changing hands is quite large, and the mom-and-pop outfits have all but been eliminated because the booksellers (especially the secondary markets of groceries and discount chains) are expecting to make a profit from the books. Otherwise, why not carry food on those shelves, which have a higher profit margin?

Your lesson for the day... ;)

[aruna]

The money changing hands is quite large, and the mom-and-pop outfits have all but been eliminated because the booksellers (especially the secondary markets of groceries and discount chains) are expecting to make a profit from the books. Otherwise, why not carry food on those shelves, which have a higher profit margin?

Your lesson for the day... ;)

See, all of this I had no idea about when I first started. I wish I'd known about this board back then. I was so naive! All you who are just starting out are so lucky!
My solution now and in future is the personal touch. Both the big bookshops in my town have reading groups and bith have read my books, and I have visited them - they love it when author visits! And one of the salesmen is always promoting my books, and we always chate when I go in. As a result they always have my books in stock, and fairly well positioned. I aslreday have a great marketing plan for my next book - I am determined to beat the system!