Where to cut?

LOG · Jul 24, 2009

So, I've been seeing this advice on these boards alot, it goes something like this, 'If it doesn't move your story along, you should cut it.'
...Just how seriously should I take that?
Are we talking, 'The plot, the whole plot, and nothing but the plot'?
Can I divert at instances at all?

Tolkien: Fellowship of the Ring, shortly after leaving Rivendell, there walking through those mountains, and they go off into a history lesson of Elves who lived there a long time ago. It was in no way relevant to the plot that I could see, but it didn't necessarily throw me off either though. (I love Midde-Earth History, nearly spent 40 bucks on a bunch of maps a few days ago...) He needed something other than, 'they traveled for XX days before reaching XXXX' though.

Danthia · Jul 24, 2009

Very seriously. If it doesn't do something to advance the story, get rid of it. Tolkien is not the best reference on that, and if he tried to publish today he'd probably be rejected. (I know, sacrilege). What was acceptable to readers 50 years ago isn't anymore.

Of course, "advance the story" means a lot of things. It's not all about plot. A bit of characterization that shows another side of your protag and makes something that happens later more meaningful advances the story, even if it doesn't directly affect the plot. Four pages of description about your world as they travel though it doesn't do anything but bog down the story.

Remember, story is a noun, but plot is a verb. Plot is what happens in the book to create your story. As long as you're making the reader want to know what happens next, it's fine. History lessons, while interesting to some, rarely make the reader want to know what happens next.

Lucky Jim · Jul 24, 2009

JJM said:
So, I've been seeing this advice on these boards alot, it goes something like this, 'If it doesn't move your story along, you should cut it.'
...Just how seriously should I take that?
Are we talking, 'The plot, the whole plot, and nothing but the plot'?
Can I divert at instances at all?

Tolkien: Fellowship of the Ring, shortly after leaving Rivendell, there walking through those mountains, and they go off into a history lesson of Elves who lived there a long time ago. It was in no way relevant to the plot that I could see, but it didn't necessarily throw me off either though. (I love Midde-Earth History, nearly spent 40 bucks on a bunch of maps a few days ago...) He needed something other than, 'they traveled for XX days before reaching XXXX' though.

To start with Tolkien. He probably had an 'in' to publishers anyway. If you think the stuff you want to put in is relevant, then put it in. I find Tolkien impossible to read, myself. Too much distraction from the story. Never forget, though, that it's your story and you can do whatever you want. On the other hand, should you come across someone like me at an agency or publiishing house who doesn't like Tolkien, you might be in trouble as far as geting your story published. I have heard that Tolkienish stories are in a bit of a glut anyway.

There are always those who crit who want to write but don't, for whatever reason, and these people sometimes want to hi-jack a story. In the end it can only be you who makes a decision as to what goes into a story, and what gets taken out.

Luck with it whatever you decide.

Lucky Jim

scarletpeaches · Jul 24, 2009

There are two things you have to check your words against. Does it advance the story or illustrate character?

Lisa Cox · Jul 24, 2009

Standards these days are different, and readers have a lot more choice. If you bore your reader even a little bit with tangents and derails, they'll put you down and reach for something else. You want to keep them hooked. Cut everything that doesn't move the story on.

Skye Jules · Jul 24, 2009

Shameful as this is to admit, I preferred the LoTR movies over the books. I tried to get into his books back when I was eleven, but there was just too much exposition, and I found myself easily bored.

C.M.C. · Jul 24, 2009

Always ask yourself a simple question: what's the point? If you can't explain the purpose of a section as to how it is important to the work as a whole, the odds are that you don't need it. A paragraph here and there like that is fine, but if you're getting to whole scenes and chapters that are hard to explain, they need to go.

bettielee · Jul 24, 2009

It can be hard to put your ego aside. I once wrote a section just to show how cool my dragon magic was. I had to admit, it did nothing for the story or the characters, and when I cut it out, I was surprised to find myself relieved that I had cut the fluff, and didn't miss it.

Ok. I might miss it a little, but I doubt anyone else would. (...but it was cool....)

katiemac · Jul 24, 2009

Go through scene by scene, and ask yourself if each scene has a goal.

It does have a goal? Good. Does it achieve that goal? No. Then rewrite the scene so it does.

Your scene doesn't have a goal at all? Cut it.

Kathleen42 · Jul 24, 2009

Lucky Jim said:
To start with Tolkien. He probably had an 'in' to publishers anyway.

While I don't think that Tolkien is a good example of what to do for today's market it is not true that he had an "in" with publishers.

Tolkien sent the Hobbit into a publisher. The publisher gave the Hobbit to his son to read and evaluate.

(and I prefer the movies to the books as well)

roseangel · Jul 24, 2009

LotR was an asked for sequel as well.
Does is advance character, plot or theme? If not, why is it there? Why would anyone want to read it?

LOG · Jul 24, 2009

I wasn't exactly intending to write like Tolkien...I'd go mad :S (...er)

Advancing character: develops the character in some manner, or reveals more about the character to the reader.
Advancing plot: Rising action(for the most part I think)
Advancing theme: ???

vox · Jul 24, 2009

Kathleen42 said:
Tolkien sent the Hobbit into a publisher.

I'm never one to make snarky comments about grammar or spelling in people's posts. So please don't take it that way, but...I imagined the literal execution of the above sentence and it made me laugh out loud.

Lucky Jim · Jul 24, 2009

bettielee said:
It can be hard to put your ego aside. I once wrote a section just to show how cool my dragon magic was. I had to admit, it did nothing for the story or the characters, and when I cut it out, I was surprised to find myself relieved that I had cut the fluff, and didn't miss it.

Ok. I might miss it a little, but I doubt anyone else would. (...but it was cool....)

Writers at times write stuff for themselves; stuff that helps them understand what they are writing about. As you found out, it needs to be cut.

Lucky Jim

Kathleen42 · Jul 25, 2009

vox said:
I'm never one to make snarky comments about grammar or spelling in people's posts. So please don't take it that way, but...I imagined the literal execution of the above sentence and it made me laugh out loud.

Can't blame you. I'm actually leaving it because it's funny.

LOG · Jul 25, 2009

Kathleen42 said:
Can't blame you. I'm actually leaving it because it's funny.

So you'd stay if the thread was morose?

vox · Jul 25, 2009

Kathleen42 said:
Can't blame you. I'm actually leaving it because it's funny.

"Umm...I'm not sure I feel your book is right for us, Professor Tolkein."
"Oh yeah? Well, what if I shove it up your butt? How's it feelin' now?"
*Gasps* "OK, we'll publish it!"

LOG · Jul 25, 2009

vox said:
"Umm...I'm not sure I feel your book is right for us, Professor Tolkein."
"Oh yeah? Well, what if I shove it up your butt? How's it feelin' now?"
*Gasps* "OK, we'll publish it!"

...Um...Okay...

...So what about building scenes, i.e. it's a scene that has importance towards the main plot, but the reader wouldn't realize the importance until later. Are the scenes supposed to fulfill an objective for me, or for the reader?

vox · Jul 25, 2009

JJM said:
...Um...Okay...

...So what about building scenes, i.e. it's a scene that has importance towards the main plot, but the reader wouldn't realize the importance until later. Are the scenes supposed to fulfill an objective for me, or for the reader?

Sorry for the derail. I'll try to be good.

I love LoTR as well, but Tolkein was doing fantasy, which requires a certain amount of world building. I think the history that he was including helped make the world more real. IF you're doing a story that doesn't take place in the present world as it is commonly understood, then you're going to be including things that may not be directly related to the plot, but affect the story in some way...even if it's just to set up the playing field for what happens.

If your story takes place in a familiar setting, then (IMO) you'll be held to a stricter "does it advance the plot or reveal character" standard.

Having said that, I think there's probably some niches where you could (and should) include a bit mor ancillary stuff because you're playing to a particular audience who enjoys that type of thing. I'm going WAY out on a limb here, because I know nothing about the Historical Fiction genre, but I might be tempted to think that avid readers of the genre would appreciate a little more exploration of things unique to the time period in which the story takes place. In that case, you might be expected to come with a certain amount of material that doesn't strictly advance the plot or reveal character. I could be completely mistaken, though.

katiemac · Jul 25, 2009

...So what about building scenes, i.e. it's a scene that has importance towards the main plot, but the reader wouldn't realize the importance until later. Are the scenes supposed to fulfill an objective for me, or for the reader?

The scene fulfills an objective for the story.

If the reader can't see it's important yet, something else should also be happening in that scene that makes the reader care about it. Just because it's "not important now" doesn't mean the scene isn't engaging and a waste of space. JK Rowling is exceptionally good at this kind of scene building.

Wark · Jul 25, 2009

Are we off topic yet? Maybe someone should mention Valdemort.

Plot plot plot is not all. Character character character is also very important.

"What's the point?" To show he loves her. Or to get supplies, a detail which could be left out. But should it?

Sometimes the better questions might be "Am I slowing it?" or "Does this detract from the story?" Neutral ground is neutral. But if it should go, woob woob woob, away it goes.

Sometimes a character has to walk across a room.

Where to cut?

LOG

Lagrangian

Danthia

Lucky Jim

scarletpeaches

Lisa Cox

Skye Jules

March 15th: Issue 1 release

C.M.C.

Archetype

bettielee

I'm a sparkly fairy princess!

katiemac

Five by Five

Kathleen42

crushing on fictional characters

roseangel

Crazy Young Cat Lady

LOG

Lagrangian

vox

Lucky Jim

Kathleen42

crushing on fictional characters

LOG

Lagrangian

vox

LOG

Lagrangian

vox

katiemac

Five by Five

Wark

Mark Brockman