Door opens- help needed from board elders

[Nateskate]

I've found myself in a convoluted situation, and really would appreciate the wisdom of the board elders.

A nearby University has a creative writing program, and I was invited to an event there. And we've all been in that awkward situation where you hardly know anyone, and ask the question "Where do I sit?"

My good friend wasn't there, and another friend was at a full table. Most of the students congregated at various tables, so, I sat at a table by this guy I didn't know. Well, soon after, as the seats began to fill up, I found myself at a table with a bunch of agents, and people in the buisiness who are heavy hitters.

One thing led to another, and yada yada...well...it becomes something like a disney ending where the coach finally sees the scrappy kid at the end of the bench, and says, "You wanna get in the game?" Let's say my foot is now in the door with more than one agent. I even said to one "I really like you, but I'm not your Genre" which is I guess akin to telling a date "I'm not your type." We had a great conversation, and she gave me a card anyway. When she overheard another agent (heavy hitter) asked me to write her, the other came to me and told me I am "proverbially- her type." Since my story has a fifteen year old protagonist it can be marketed as YA. Well, of course I felt like the bell of the ball. (Of course, no one's said "I do" yet, so I'm jumping the gun in that I simply have a toe in the door, and nothing else.)

My problem: In my mind, this "Win an agent lottery" appeared so insurmountable, when I finished book one, I didn't want to risk trusting my own instincts that it was good enough. So, I hired a pro to edit my book. My thinking was that the odds of getting published are so great, you virtually have to hand in something flawless and shelf ready.

I got someone who has a Ph.D in Medieval lit, who is published, and has editing experience. I gave her my Manuscript, and I also made a nice sized downpayment. There's no doubt in my mind this woman is good, and that when she's done, it will be ready. She's a good hearted person who really wants to see me published.

However, now, I'm wondering if my mentality should be "Strike while the iron is hot!" In a perfect world, I'd have gotten my ms back, and made any needed changes, and then I could confidently send them right away. But my editor had a death in the family, and now she is out of the country for three weeks. Which means I'm looking at near the end of July.

Would you recommend, 1) I contact these agents, and tell them what an impression they made, and how honored I am they asked me to send them my stuff, and then explain that I paid an editor to go over book one- gave her the m.s, and I'm waiting for her to send it back. (I have it on disc, so I can make more copies)

2) Should I take the loss, forget the editor, and just send out the Ms to the agents, hoping my story is so wonderful "as is" in their eyes; they'll help me perfect whatever needs perfecting.

3) Frankly, this is my first time. Perhaps waiting would be the best idea in the long run, because it might increase the chances of them saying, "I do" when all is said and done.
Any ideas you have regarding how to approach this would be welcome.

[Ketzel]

What a great opportunity! I'm not a pro, but this is what I'd do - immediately contact (in writing or by email, depending on what seems appropriate to you) the agent(s) that expressed interest to thank them for being so encouraging at the event, and let them know you are putting finishing touches on your manuscript and expect to send it to them very soon. Then I'd send it when it was ready with another nice note reminding them of the prior contact. I don't think I'd mention the professional editor to them.

[Tish Davidson]

Is there any chance that your first 3 chapters have already been edited and that you can buy yourself time by sending these agents a partial? If you have to choose between waiting or sending something you think is lower quality, I would wait. You only get one chance to make a first impression - yes, its a cliche, but you should always send whatever you think has the best chance of being publishable. Agents make money selling books. If they are interested in it now, they still will be in a couple of months if the material is good.

Also, whatever you do, when you send whatever you send (do not let this opportunity go by) mark the envelope "requested material" and mention in your cover letter that they requested the manuscript at such and such an event.

[SheliaRudesill]

I agree with Ketzel but why not mention the professional edit? Even Steven King pays his own editors before he submits his manuscripts, doesn't he?

But, hey, Nateskate, I'd definately take advantage (in a nice way) of the opportunities presented. Best of luck! (Are you a member of MKF?)

[James D. Macdonald]

<I> Even Steven King pays his own editors before he submits his manuscripts, doesn't he?</I>

No, he doesn't.

But ... okay, what I'd do. Send query letters to everyone who gave you a business card, mentioning the event and asking if they'd like to see three-and-an-outline.

For those who do want to see it, send what you have.

No edit will change an unpublishable book into a publishable one. If what you have is publishable, your current best draft will be publishable. (Agents can look past the rough edges to see what a book would be like with a proper edit.)

[Nateskate]

<I> Even Steven King pays his own editors before he submits his manuscripts, doesn't he?</I>

No, he doesn't.

But ... okay, what I'd do. Send query letters to everyone who gave you a business card, mentioning the event and asking if they'd like to see three-and-an-outline.

For those who do want to see it, send what you have.

No edit will change an unpublishable book into a publishable one. If what you have is publishable, your current best draft will be publishable. (Agents can look past the rough edges to see what a book would be like with a proper edit.)

Thanks Jim and everyone. I'm going to send them something by weeks end, and I think if I just send a query, that will buy me time.

In answering your question, "Is it publishable now?" Wow, that's a humbling question. But for me, that was never my standard to begin with. This book was never about getting my feet wet by getting one published, and then one-upping myself as I go. I'd have done a simpler project. I've already invested so much into this story, and at this point I'll go the extra mile for what I've been shooting for. And that's to write a classic. Anything short of that is far below my goal. If I knew I couldn't make it there, I'd seek a co-author, seek someone who could make it that, or quit. I believe story one is there. I want to make double sure the punctuation...etc is there. And if there is any kind of sprucing that would make it better, I'm open to doing that.

Now I realize that once the story is out there, I can't control markets, or what happens next. I can't even control whether I'm breathing next week-though I'll give it my best. So, beyond that it could wind up the best story never read. But if there are only ten readers who read my story, I want them to feel something touch them so deep; that it is to them what 'Lord of the Rings' was to me.

This came up in conversation today. Years ago, they'd pair an author with an editor. Now, you virtually have to give a publisher something shelf-ready. And the agents have become the editors, at least for books they feel are worth their efforts. So, with the goal I've set, I really want someone who is a cut above average to not just get this publishable, but near flawless.

[James D. Macdonald]

Now, you virtually have to give a publisher something shelf-ready.

That really isn't true either. The reason publishers have folks called "editor" on staff is to work with you to make your book the best it can be.

If you get an agent, and the agent makes editing suggestions, by all means consider them.

[James D. Macdonald]

To expand on that a bit ... you'll hear a lot of writers talking about how now-a-days editors just want to slam stuff through the pipeline, not like the good old days when editors edited by golly!

The gold old days are about ten years before whichever writer you're talking to first published.

And you'll find those same complaints by writers in their letters, year after year, all the way back to the nineteen twenties.

[Jamesaritchie]

I agree with Uncle Jim all the way. Send the query letter, send the chapters and outline, then be very patient.

Edits are nice, but they don't help an unpublishable book, and a publishable book doesn't need them. And if you aren't confident about your own editing ability, what will you do when you have to do some heavy rewriting and editing in very short order should someone want the book?

Oh, I suspect the notion that editors don't edit today is another one of the myths perpetrated by the self-publishing companies and such places as Publish America. Don't believe it for a second. It may be tough to find a Maxwell Perkins these days, but it was just as difficult in the old days.

If editors sat around waiting for shelf ready books, very darned little would ever get published. Editors do their job, which is to edit. If they can help a book, they help it. There are some darned good editors out there, and all they expect is a book they can help, not one that's perfect.

[Jamesaritchie]

I agree with Ketzel but why not mention the professional edit? Even Steven King pays his own editors before he submits his manuscripts, doesn't he?


I'm curious where this idea came from? The only editors writers have are the ones who work for the publishing companies, and we don't pay them, the publisher does.

It just strikes me as an odd notion. I don't think I've met anyone who thought writers pay editors, especially professional writers.

[SRHowen]

I remember reading that somewhere---a rumor mill kinda thing, about King and other pro's paying editors. Not true. But if I recall where I saw it I'll let you know.

Shawn

[Jamesaritchie]

I remember reading that somewhere---a rumor mill kinda thing, about King and other pro's paying editors. Not true. But if I recall where I saw it I'll let you know.

Shawn

I'd be grateful. It seems to me that many such rumors are all over the internet, and I strongly suspect most of them are started by self-publishing companies, but those trying to sell their editorial wares, etc.

Probably nothing I can do about it, but all the flat out untruths on the internet really annoy me. New writers read such things, and with no one to say otherwise, believe them.

[SRHowen]

and new writers also latch onto ideas that fit what they thought in the first place, that secret key to getting in the door---

I'll try to find where I saw the one about King---

[SheliaRudesill]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Steven King stated that “rumor” himself in his book "On Writing." If I had a copy of it I’d look it up.



When I made the statement, I added, “...doesn’t he?” I didn’t start a rumor or state a fact.

If I've made a mistake it's the first one I've ever made in my whole dern life!

[maestrowork]

You've been presented with great opportunities. Seize the day and run with it. It's better to do it then sweat about it later (do make sure you have a kick-a$$ query and 3+).

Regret is a b!tch.

[Mistook]

Well anyway, congrats, Nate! :)

It seems to me that if these people expressed interest, they must've liked the concept. You could beat yourself up asking whether this golden opportunity came too soon, but I'd take it as a sign. What's to loose?

[aruna]

In answering your question, "Is it publishable now?" Wow, that's a humbling question. But for me, that was never my standard to begin with. This book was never about getting my feet wet by getting one published, and then one-upping myself as I go. I'd have done a simpler project. I've already invested so much into this story, and at this point I'll go the extra mile for what I've been shooting for. And that's to write a classic. Anything short of that is far below my goal. If I knew I couldn't make it there, I'd seek a co-author, seek someone who could make it that, or quit. I believe story one is there. I want to make double sure the punctuation...etc is there. And if there is any kind of sprucing that would make it better, I'm open to doing that.

Now I realize that once the story is out there, I can't control markets, or what happens next. I can't even control whether I'm breathing next week-though I'll give it my best. So, beyond that it could wind up the best story never read. But if there are only ten readers who read my story, I want them to feel something touch them so deep; that it is to them what 'Lord of the Rings' was to me.

This came up in conversation today. Years ago, they'd pair an author with an editor. Now, you virtually have to give a publisher something shelf-ready. And the agents have become the editors, at least for books they feel are worth their efforts. So, with the goal I've set, I really want someone who is a cut above average to not just get this publishable, but near flawless.

Hi Nateskate, and congratulations! The advice already given is good but what yousay above makes me think that you won't be happy unless your book is as good as you can possible make it - not just publishable. I can'ttell you what to do but I can tell you what I did in a similar situation.
I've been revising my current work for six months now; after every revision, I feel its publishable, but then I go over it again and find so much to change, the previous efforts seem embarassing. I can't believe I sent it (as a partial) into agents four months ago, and I don't blame them for rejecting it.

Some time ago I started yet another major overhaul, and at the same time, sent in partials to two agents; one of whom I feel would be perfect for me. As I got deeper into the revision I found it would take more time than I originally planned.

Meanwhile, two weeks after I had sent in the partial one of those agents called me, the one who was my first choice. We had a long telephone conversation. She had even read my amazon reviews for my last books, seen my website. She wanted to know all about my past work and plans for the future. Her reader had loved the partial and passed it on to her. She was more than interested and wanted the full, exclusively. I told her I was in the middle of a major revison, gave her an estimate of the time needed, and promised her the full. I am very hopeful now that this IS my agent; and if so, I know the waiting won't hurt the process.

I know very well that if I had sent in the version I had at the time, which is vastly inferior to what I DID finally send in and yet certainly publishable, I would not be happy even if she did accept it. I would still want to make those changes; I feel that my work demands it and I can't rest until it is done. Even if a publisher said it's great as it is, let's publish, and here's your advance, I think I'd refuse until that work is done.

I sent in the full a few days ago and since then I have started yet another revision, with an even finer-toothed comb. I am beginning to regret not waiting a few more weeks, for this revision to be over!

And the point of all this is that my favourite publisher, several months ago, asked for the full manuscript. All this is in preparation for that submission. I am trying to avoid the mistakes of the past.

Two of my books were published to a tight schedule, to a deadline. I was not given the time to let them rest and see what else could be done, nor even to give them that last polish. Up to this day I feel terrible about those books. I was never able to read them once they were out. I managed to pursuade my pulishger to let me do some revision to the third one between hardcover and paperback editions, but I know it's still not what I wanted. I had trouble promoting those two books - I felt guilty. I feel bad giving out free copies to friends. They embarass me.

From what you say, this agent has not yet seen a sample of your work; what if you send it in as it is now, and he rejects it? Would you ever be able to forgive yourself for not waiting?

And, there seems to be some sort of stigma attached to a professional editor... well, if I could afford one at the moment, I would not hesitate to use one. I did use one for my first book. Perhaps there is less of a stigma here in the UK. Anyway, that professional critique was my direct path into publishing; after I'd made my changes she passed it straight on to an agent, who immediately snapped it up and had a publisher for it within a week.

In other words: I'd always wait if it means a better book, no matter how publishable it is at the moment. It seems to me you have the highest aspirations for this book; if so, then it's worth the wait, and the agent will understand. What's a few weeks now, if your book is to be in print a hundred years from now!

It's true that professional writers don't usually employ paid editors. It's also true that I had a good editor in my publishing house; an excellent one, in fact. But she was not at all concerned with making my writing the best that it could be, or in grpwing me as an author, or in stretching me to produce my best work. Al that was entirely up to me, and I have to admit that I got lazy; and then, there was simply not the time once I had done the content revisions.

If I was in any way dissatisfied with my work and felt I couldn't fix it myself, I'd go to a professional editor, even if I was with a publisher; that is, before submitting my work. For my own satisfaction.

[aruna]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Steven King stated that “rumor” himself in his book "On Writing." If I had a copy of it I’d look it up.



When I made the statement, I added, “...doesn’t he?” I didn’t start a rumor or state a fact.

If I've made a mistake it's the first one I've ever made in my whole dern life!

I have that book in front of me now, and can't find anything that says he pays an editor (then again, I just flipped through it).

But he spends a whole chapter detailing the process of having his wife critique all his work, and he empahsises the importance of having an Ideal Reader go over it with an eagle eye and show you its flaws. Inthe context of this thread, I think I'll quote!

...I believe that most people smart enough to read a novel are also tactful enough tofind a gentler mode of expression than "This sucks". (Although most of us know that "I think this has a few problems" actually means "This sucks", don't we? - Stephen King


I absolutely do not have anyone, neither a husband nor a friend, who would have any idea how to cirtique my work to the degree of professionality I'd demand. I'm doing the best I can on my own, but I would dearly love to have a professional editor look at it befoe I submit it, both to increase its chances of acceptance, and for my own satisfaction. If necessary, I'd pay for this service, if I could afford to, which I can't right now. Some people are lucky to have reasders with the right eye, who will do it for free. I'm not so lucky.

Generally, I find that there are not so many literary sharks in the UK as in the US; I've certainly not heard of the rampant scams over here that you seem to suffer there. No equivalent of PublishAmerica. The professional editor I used for my first book was excellent. She used to work for Penguin, and has a gerat team of readers who are themselves publsiehd authors. I find nothing at all wrong with the concept.

[Jaws]

No edit will change an unpublishable book into a publishable one. If what you have is publishable, your current best draft will be publishable.
When I was moderating a panel on literary scams at the 2000 WorldCon, Gordon Van Gelder—the editor (and now publisher) of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, and at that time an acquiring editor at St. Martin's Press—was asked his reaction to manuscripts that came to him trumpeting "professionally edited" in the cover letter. His response was:
Professionally edited manuscripts are slightly less unpublishable than the rest of the slush pile.
He later remarked that as far as he could recall, the "professional editing" had never been the difference in his own acquisition decisions, or of any editor he knew.

[Nateskate]

Now, you virtually have to give a publisher something shelf-ready.

That really isn't true either. The reason publishers have folks called "editor" on staff is to work with you to make your book the best it can be.

If you get an agent, and the agent makes editing suggestions, by all means consider them.

Obviously you know more than I do. I'm only giving you feedback from what I'm hearing. If what you are saying is true, which I don't doubt, perhaps I've over-reacted by hiring someone.

I've never submitted to an agent yet-first things first, but I've listened to what some agents are saying. The ones I've listened to pretty much were speaking about what they saw as a trend, and there were writers who agreed with them. The gist was that the business has changed since they've come in.

My next question would it be possible that it has changed since some of you have come in? The smallest of the agents at this event were getting fifty new querys a day. This puts the publisher in the drivers seat, in terms of "We can hold out for the best of the best."

In other words, in the old days, someone who showed potential, but was not polished, would have had a chance to get published when these agents started, but not now. They have to be polished or they don't get in the door.

The one agent was telling me that she won't even see the majority of the query letters. They will be screened by "sub-agents" before they get to her. That was one reason why I felt so thankful that I at least have a few opportunities to be seen off the bat. This is weird, I used the analogy of "She may not be my type, nor I hers" in terms of what I'm writing. But one thing I do feel about this particular peson, is that if this agent believes in you and likes you, she will try to help you. She just seems like the kind of person who will root for someone she likes. And that may mean her sending me to "so and so", who deals with my type of story.

Then again, these are established New York agents who work with Harper Collins and the likes. I believe all of them started out as editors, though some of them it was many years ago. So, when they are talking about having to send over virtually finished pieces, it may simply be a unique situation. I'm sure other agents and smaller pubishers will work more with a writer than some of these who have legions of writers coming to them.

When I heard their backgrounds and who they represented, I felt extremely humbled. I hope you take this the right way, but I feel humbled by the fact that people like you answer my posts. Being published these days, and getting noticed these days is such an uphill climb, getting anyone to notice you is a major accomplishment.

I read Andy Zack's posts. He's an amazing person who I also appreciate more than he'll ever know, in that he's been willing to talk to us and teach us much like you are doing. When someone here calculated the actual number of people he represents out of the number of query letters he gets, it worked out to something like a 1/4 of a percent. And when I read how many people here have been rejected, and how hard it was to find someone, I understand that getting noticed (forget the next step of being signed and published) is a major honor. But you can also see why I wanted a real expert opinion before I began the hunt.

[Nateskate]

To expand on that a bit ... you'll hear a lot of writers talking about how now-a-days editors just want to slam stuff through the pipeline, not like the good old days when editors edited by golly!

The gold old days are about ten years before whichever writer you're talking to first published.

And you'll find those same complaints by writers in their letters, year after year, all the way back to the nineteen twenties.

I talked to one agent, who I've met before. He owns his own company, and he is considered one of the majors. (He doesn't do fantasy-blah) The real problem, as he states it is that everybody thinks they can write a book. And these days everyone is writing a book. So, they have to sift through so much that being good isnt' good enough. You have to be outstanding and grab someone in a first sentence.

He's not young, and he's seen the industry through the years. The publishers used to work with talent because way back when, before Word Processors and the likes, it was such a major chore to write/type a manuscript. They weren't swamped with material. When I read of poor Tolkien, and revisions made, I can't imagine not being able to punch in and punch out a sentence, and having to redo not only a whole page, but sometimes an entire chapter stroke for stroke.

[aruna]

When I was moderating a panel on literary scams at the 2000 WorldCon, Gordon Van Gelder—the editor (and now publisher) of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, and at that time an acquiring editor at St. Martin's Press—was asked his reaction to manuscripts that came to him trumpeting "professionally edited" in the cover letter. His response was:Professionally edited manuscripts are slightly less unpublishable than the rest of the slush pile.He later remarked that as far as he could recall, the "professional editing" had never been the difference in his own acquisition decisions, or of any editor he knew.



That may be so. But what I read again and again on these boards - and in every writing book I read, including Stephen King - is a need for an outside opinion fromsomeone who is not your mother, your aunt or your dog. Somepne who can tell you wear the flaws lie and where to correct them. If you have a friend or a spouse who can do this fine. But if you haven't, what then?

At the time I finished my first novel I was desperate for such an assessment, and I got it. Her advice was gold worth; and she was the direct link to publishing.

Having a professional editor does not mean you go trumpeting it around, and certainly not in a query letter - but neither is it something to be ashamed of.
I don't think the comment by your editor above makes much sense. I know that many first time authors in the UK HAVE been professionally edited, and that it has made the difference between being published an dnot being published. Certainly, there must be many mansucripts in the slush pile to which editing wil never make a difference. But what about those which only need that professional eye to get in there?
Many of them who shared my own editor are now best selling authors. They may not return to such an editor once they are published; but in my case, if I were to find that my current ms was currently being rejected, i would certainly send it in to her again.

I think Nakeskate is right to go ahead with his editor, if he feels (s)he the need for it.

[Nateskate]

Some time ago I started yet another major overhaul, and at the same time, sent in partials to two agents; one of whom I feel would be perfect for me. As I got deeper into the revision I found it would take more time than I originally planned.



First, let me congratualte you. Great job.

Second, let me say that I agree with you, and relate to you. As far as high standards, when I read LOTR, and Narnia, and the Hobbit. In my mind, neither of them were perfect works, and I'd think, "What can be added here, or cut there."

But, I also realized what you did, the diminishing returns to writes and re-writes. In essense, I never doubted the story. If it were a picture, it would be like seeing it exactly in my head, but wondering if I could ever translate it onto a canvas. And so, I felt I had a story, but wondered if I was a good enough writer to convey it. And so, I really forced myself to work on prose, and thinking as a writer and a reader.

What I'm doing isn't safe or formulaic. But I believe in it. "I think"- I could be wrong- I could have mastered the formula for writing a typical fantasy. "Add dragons and stir". That is not at all to belittle a good tale about dragons, but I think the key is knowing what people want to see in a story,and giving it to them.

So, when I say, "I wanted it to be a classic," I wasn't meaning, "As percieved by the machine, or even fully comprehended by the public." What I meant was that I wanted it to have such intrinisic value, that for those who read it, it was worth their time, and touched them. So, I'm talking about a quality, not anything more than that.

And obviously, if it was never "published" or marketed, it would never be considered a "classic" in the conventional sense. But in my unconventional sense, those who have read parts of the story have given me the feedback that it does touch them deeply.

Initially, when I began this story, I had no intention of publishing or marketing it. I wasn't thinking money or fame. Honestly, I think if not for the fact that some fantasy lovers who saw it, and pushed me, I'd just as soon dumped it on a free space on the internet, and left it for people to read.

Well, if I wasn't thinking of marketing, and money, what was I writing it for? I believed in it. I felt it had to be written for others to read. Then it dawned on me, "Without the machine-agents, publishers, marketing" far fewer people will ever see it. Who knows, maybe with some clever links, people might see it. But I've learned something about perceived value. If you give something away, people tend to take it for granted, and think, "It must not be special". However, if they have to pay for it, they simply perceive it differently. So it wouldn't be wise of me to just dump it out there.

[aruna]

The publishers used to work with talent because way back when, before Word Processors and the likes, it was such a major chore to write/type a manuscript. They weren't swamped with material. When I read of poor Tolkien, and revisions made, I can't imagine not being able to punch in and punch out a sentence, and having to redo not only a whole page, but sometimes an entire chapter stroke for stroke.

I think this hits the nail onthe head. Before word processors, you had to be REALLY determined (and more than a little obsessed) to finish writing a novel.

the trouble with writing, unlike with the other arts, is that we all have the tools. We all use words on a daily basis, and everybody has a story of a sort, and everybody thinks their own story is riveting. I can't count the times I've been told by someone that they have a great story and I should write it, we'll share the profit.

Whereas nbobody imagines they could become a famous musician, or artist, or ballerina, overnight, becoming a famous (and rich!) novelist seems easy. Look at all the blogs flying around the internet these days. And the legions of people self-publishing and vanity publishing. There are simply too many manuscripts to go through.

The first agent I ever had told me that these days a novel does have to be almost perfect to get accepted. She worked very hard with me to get that book right for publication; and even then it was rejected (thank goodness!)

When choosing a professional editor one of course needs to be as wary as when choosing an agent. A good editor will be able to show a list of authors who, through her help, were able to get published.

[Nateskate]

When I was moderating a panel on literary scams at the 2000 WorldCon, Gordon Van Gelder—the editor (and now publisher) of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, and at that time an acquiring editor at St. Martin's Press—was asked his reaction to manuscripts that came to him trumpeting "professionally edited" in the cover letter. His response was:Professionally edited manuscripts are slightly less unpublishable than the rest of the slush pile.He later remarked that as far as he could recall, the "professional editing" had never been the difference in his own acquisition decisions, or of any editor he knew.

That's a given. But if you translate that, if the story isn't a good story, then it will be a polished bad story. However, I wouldn't even say "This has been professionally edited." If you are saying that, then in essense, you are pleading with them to take you seriously on that basis, not the basis of the story itself.

Here's how I see it. More people can edit than write a novel, at least one that is a best-seller. And out of all of those who can edit, how many of them can actually ghost-write or co-write?

Now, out of them, how many would bother fixing up another's mess? If someone is that "good" to make something that's really fit for the swamps, fit for the NYT bestsellers list, then they'd charge an arm and a leg. And they'd be more than a "Professional Editor". So, the example you gave may be perfectly true, but beside the point. The other question is can a great editor help a good writer hoping to be a great writer? I think so. If the story isn't "Slush material" when it goes in, it should be even better when it comes out.

Will I always need an editor? The point is, this was just my choice not to be overcomfident and take things for granted. If I have a weakness, I want a pro-eye to tell me, "Before I've lost my first chance to make a best impression" I'm a first time author. Why take a risk if I can take a logical step? "In my eyes"
What if it is already good enough to publish? What if this relatively small investment takes it to the next level. People could like it as is, or "my heart's desire", they could crave it to the point where they count the days until the next release, and nag the publishers to hurry it through.

Again, if my goal is to get published, then if something fails, I simply go back to the drawing board. However, that is not the case (I only want to get published. I feel like "this" story is that important, like one of my duties in this life is to take it and give it the best opportunity to be discovered.

This editor not only cares about making a buck, but cares about me, and my career. And again, when you look at all the extras. Her significant other is a published fantasy writer, and these two edit for each other. So, if what I've written is the best it can be, she'll know, and then I'll know. If it can be improved, I think she will have the insights to show me where.

[SheliaRudesill]

Nateskate,



Your post #23 is excellent! I think you have a deep devotion to writing and great knowledge about the industry. Perhaps this is what the agents who shared your table saw in you as well. You must radiate your passion! Most of the time a writer needs to sell themselves in order to sell their books. It sounds as if you’ve sold yourself to some people who matter. A good start. Even if they can’t help you, they may give you a leg up just because they saw your passion and enthusiasm!



I don’t know if this is still true but several years ago, when I started writing seriously, an editor at a writer’s conference made this quote:



“For every person who ever thought about writing a book, one percent actually do.

For every person who actually writes a book, one percent get published.”



(Please correct me if I’m wrong – this isn’t written in GOLD.)



This statistic doesn’t include POD’s or Vanity Presses or Online books.



This made me want to make a good first impression with agents and publishers. Years later, I’m still studying and reading everything I can get my hands on to learn not only the craft of writing but the “how to” of writing one liner high concept pitches just to get noticed!





Shelia



p.s. I don't see the difference between a professional editor and a writing buddy with a keen eye. Every piece of word needs to be seen by other eyes, even to point out minor mistakes or problems with the time frame or story line. My husband is a writer, too and we read each other's work. Sometimes we say to each other, "She'd never do that! or "What do you mean here? What's the point of including this scene?" and "Well, if that's your point, I don't think the reader will get it." My sister who is not a writer but an avid reader often reads my work and picks out 20 or more mistakes. EVERY mistake she finds is about something I already know the rules for. It's just so difficult to read your own work, even from the last page to the first and discover mistakes. I love my stories and characters and get caught up in them so much that I miss even the most glaring mistakes! Besides it's fun to share my work with my husband, sister and writing buddies. When it's ready for an agent or publisher, I want to be proud!

[Jamesaritchie]

That may be so. But what I read again and again on these boards - and in every writing book I read, including Stephen King - is a need for an outside opinion fromsomeone who is not your mother, your aunt or your dog. Somepne who can tell you wear the flaws lie and where to correct them. If you have a friend or a spouse who can do this fine. But if you haven't, what then?

I believe you're really misunderstanding what's going on here. I know a bunch of professional writers who have no one at all look at their work before sending it in. Others, such as Stephen King, do have people look at it.

But these people are only beta readers. They do not in any way whatsoever try to change the writing, correct the grammar/punctuation, or try to tell Stephen King how to write.

Such reads are most often called "idiot reads." What the writer wants is someone who can simply tell him if he overlooked something obvious, or did something really stupid, such as having a Cessna 150 fly at 60,000 feet, or if he left a plot hole he should have seen but didn't. He wants someone to catch a gaff such as he made in one novel where he had people shooting peasants instead of pheasants.

These things are no different at all than having a friend, who is not an editor, read through your novel for the same reason. Stephen King does not in any sense of the word need a professional editor to look at his writing. He does not need anyone to fix his grammar, fix his punctuation, tell him whether or not hios sentence structure is right, or to correct any part of his writing. He's just getting idiot reads.

And like every other professional write I know, he could sell just as quickly and easily without these beata readers. In fact, he has. He sold quite a bit without beta readers.

Having a professional editor does not mean you go trumpeting it around, and certainly not in a query letter - but neither is it something to be ashamed of.

Nothing to be ashamed of, but totally inefefctive and completely counterproductive. Editing is part of writng, and if you can't edit, you can't write. It's a s simple as that. I don;t care who the professional editor is, he can fixt bad writing or bad storytelling. And if you aren't fairly good at grammar and punctutaion, you can't write a good story.


The manuscripts that only need a professional eye will get exactly that from the profession agent or editor who pulls it out of the slush pile. The best professional eye possible.

And writer who needs a professional editor is not going top benefit from a professional editor, and you'll have to list all those now bestselling writers who used one.

The last things most agents and editors I've known want is a writer who needs to pay a professional editor. Why on earth would you want to try working with such a "writer" when there are more than enough good writers out there who don't need the help?

Almost any novel that's bought is going to go through an editing, revising, rewriting stage, and the writer, not some professional editor that writers hires, is going to have to know how to do all this on his own. There isn't time to let that writer run back and forth to an outside editor, who he'll have to pay each time, to get the job done.

Better to cut the "writer" out of the loop and let that professional editor write a novel.

I've seen a lot of manuscripts that were edited by outside "professional" editors, and I have yet to see one helped in any way, unless it didn't really need any help to begin with. And this is teh problem. Many wirters hire a professional editor just because someone tells them they need to. Almost always someone who has no idea what they're talking about about.

So they send a perfectly good manuscript to a professsional editor, and pay big bucks for help they don't need in any way.

If you're a writer, then write. But being a writer means being able to edit, revise, and rewrite your own manuscript as needed. If you can't do this, neither can the best editor in the world. If you can't make your own writing say whatever it is you want it to say, in the way it should be said, it's silly to think anyone can do this for you. I don't even understand why anyone would want someone to do this for them, even if it were possible, which it isn't.

An editor you hire can do not one thing at all for you that a good agent or editor at a publishing house can't do, and do much better.

Agents and publishers are looking for Good writers. They are not looking for writers who, instead of taking the time to learn how to write, edit, and revise, wish to turn these responsibilities over to someone else.

Yes, there are more bad writers hitting the slush pile now than in the old days. Just about twice as many. So what? There never has been a case where a bad writer got in the way of a good writer. Just as there are more bad writers hitting the slush piles now, there are also more good writers. At least twice as many.

You don;t need to hire an editor to beat the bad writers. I don;t care if they hire ten editors, it won't help. It doesn't matter how many bad writers hit the slush piles, they always have and always will suffer the same fate, hired editor or not. Someone reads a few pages of their manuscripts, slaps on a rejection, and that's that.

You aren't going to beat the good writers with a hired editor, either. You are, in fact, at a huge disadvatage if you have to hire a professional editor and they don't. A huge disadvantage. It means they all know how to do what you haven't a clue how to do. And if you don't know how to do it yourself, how in the world are you going to know whether or not the editor you hire gets it right? Just trust him? And how in teh world are you going to make any revisions, rewrites, and edits you have to make on your own after someone does make an offer on the novel?

Put yourself in the place of a publisher. Which would you rather work with, a "writer" who does';t know how to write a professional quality manuscript without help, or one who does? And there are more than enough who do.

But in the end, if you can't do the job without hiring an editor, you can't do it by hiring one, either. The track record of those who hire editors is truly lousy, and for good reason.

If you don't know grammar and punctuation well, odds are you can't make a sentence say whatever it is you want it to say. An editor can't help. If you don't know how to create living, bretahing characters, you can't write well, and a hired editor can't help. If you can't write good dialogue, a hired editor REALLY can't help. On an don.

But if all you need is a touch here and there, a slight change here and there, then hiring an editor is even dumber. That editor might well make changed the book editor will hate, and the odds of him getting it the way she wants it are extremely low.

If such touches are all your manuscript needs, then the only smart move is to send it to an editor who will make the changes she wants, the way she wants them.

You may hire an editor and still get published. It happens. But only with writers who didn't need that editor at all. And a hired editor can also ruin a manuscript. Even a good one can make stupid changes, but if you hire him, you'll trust those changes almost every time.

Writers who are serious about being pros learn how to do these things themselves, because sure as anything, the writers you have to beat out absolutely will know how to do them all, and do them well.

Getting an idiot read or three is one thing, and do so if you wish. But there's absolutely nothing in common between the way pro writers get beta reads and the work a hired editor does. They have about as much in common as God and the devil.

If yu want to be a writer, then learn how to write. Learn how to edit. Learn how to revise. Learn how to rewrite. Learn grammar and punctuation. Learn how to create good characters. Learn how to write good dialogue. Learn how to tell a good story.

If you can do these things, you don't need a hired editor, and every publisher there is will fight for your work. If you can't do these things, no hired editor can help. But it's your money, and any hired editor out there will be more than happy to make it their money.

And, really, there are more than enough serious, dedicated writers out there who can do all these things more than well enough without needing to hire it doen, so as an editor, why would I take on a writer when I know I'm also going to be taking on a hired editor? I'm the editor, and one editor in the loop is all there's room for.

[Tish Davidson]

Often people who don't have agents seem to think that all they do is pass mss along to editors at publishing houses, but good agents do more than that.
Agents give editorial suggestions. I have done re-writing, revising, editing - everything from slash and burn to minor typos after my agent has seen the manuscript and made suggestions. Do I like doing it? No. I want to be done with the project . Does the agent know what she is doing? Yup. A good agent will do a better job than a paid editor, a beta reader, a trusted family member. After all, the agent makes her money based on the strength of your work.

[aruna]

Such reads are most often called "idiot reads." What the writer wants is someone who can simply tell him if he overlooked something obvious, or did something really stupid, such as having a Cessna 150 fly at 60,000 feet, or if he left a plot hole he should have seen but didn't. He wants someone to catch a gaff such as he made in one novel where he had people shooting peasants instead of pheasants.

I think it's more than that. As authors we are simply too close to our work to see clearly. A qualified editor can give you that distant eye and offer absolutely essential advice. In my case, it was changingthe whole thing from first to third person. Bringing in one major character, who enters the story late, early. And so on. They really were major changes; and it was my first (really second) novel; an extremely long, complicated one as well. There were problems of structure which I could not see as a beginner.

It was far more than an idiot read; it had nothing to do with grammar, spelling puntuation, but with the whole shape of the book (530 pages when published). It was work that I, as a beginner, could not see myself.



Nothing to be ashamed of, but totally inefefctive and completely counterproductive. Editing is part of writng, and if you can't edit, you can't write. It's a s simple as that. I don;t care who the professional editor is, he can fixt bad writing or bad storytelling. And if you aren't fairly good at grammar and punctutaion, you can't write a good story.


A professional editor can't make a bad writer into a good writer. That's obvious. An ethical editor would honestly tell a bad writer, I can't do anything for you. And not accept that work. That's a given. (or should be.)

But: a pro editor can help a good writer become an even better one - in order to stand out from the slush pile. Because, as you say, an agent and a publisher's editor CAN do the same work. Of course. But: how do you land that agent or editor in the first place? Isn't that the basic problem of so many unpublished people in this group? That our full manuscriopts never even get read?



Sure, a good agent and publisher's editor CAN help a basically good writer do that final edit. But, how is such a writer ever to get noticed, when the slush piles are toppling over? Carole Blake, who is one of London's very top agents,. has written a book called "From Pitch to Publication". In it, she says that when reading through her slush pile she is actually LOOKING for reasons to reject a manuscript. You might have a wonderful novel, but your query letter just doesn't have that extra zing; your first page doesn't quite bring it over. Reject. On to the next ms.

OK, so back to the drawing board, tweak that query, rewrite that opening. More months spent working on your ms.

I am getting the impression, more and more, that professional editors are VERY looked down upon in the US. Not so in the UK. They are seen as a fast track to publication. They do the intial sorting of the wheat from the chaff. They act as scouts for those jaded agents who can't even bear to look at the slush pile. Most of them know the agents and, if they find a jewel, will pass the author straight on.

I would like to know if any unpublished writer in this group would turn up their nose at a pro editor, for about $500, if they knew that within a month they would have a top ranking agent and a top-five publisher, and a five figure advance. Would any single unpublished writer here say, no thanks, I prefer to do it myself and take the long, long, looong and winding road?

The reality of the publishing business today is that there are simply too many aspiring writers, and 90% of then are terrible. Inthat heap, even if you have a jewel of a book it's hard to get noticed. That's what everyone here who is unpubluished keeps lamenting.

I am a member of a UK based writers group and we also discussed pro editors; there was not so much disdain there, simply a discussion on which ones were good, which not.


The editor I used was Hilary Johnson, at www.hilaryjohnson.demon.co.uk (http://www.hilaryjohnson.demon.co.uk/).
Check her author list. These names may not be well known in the US but I assure you, many on that list are UK best sellers, and prize winners. Most of them are with leading publishers. Many of them are now earning huge advances. People may sneer at their use of a pro editor, but those writers are laughing all the way to the bank. Would they have arrived there anyway? Who knows? Perhaps eventually, after many more years of trying to get noticed.

[aruna]

Another thing; James; you say that as writers we should know how to edit. But how does a first time writer "know" this? Does the ability to edit properly simply drop into her lap? I don't think so. Unlike storytelling itself, which is indeed a gift, editing is a craft, a skill. It has to be learnt, it has to be taught. Somebody may have a beautiful story with all the right elements and all the potential in the world; but it may be hidden in a maze of words, flabby descriptions, bad structure.

If yu want to be a writer, then learn how to write. Learn how to edit. Learn how to revise. Learn how to rewrite. Learn grammar and punctuation. Learn how to create good characters. Learn how to write good dialogue. Learn how to tell a good story.

Exactly. You say it yourself. We have to learn how to edit our work. That learning may take place in a creative writing class, from a book, from Uncle Jim. But it still has to be learned. You don't know how to edit when you first start writing, even though you may have a brilliant story. But WHERE do we learn this?

A pro editor is simply one of t the ways of learning. I have never attended a creative writing class. How, as a starting-off novelist, am I supposed to know how to structure a story, how could I autmatically "know" about POV, riveting beginnings, climaxes, drama, strong dialogue, and all the rest of it? Why did Uncle Jim give his tutorial, if we are all supposed to know this?

For my very first book I found an agent who thought it was terrific, but needed lots of work. And I mean LOTS of work. It was over 700 pages long, well over 200000 words. Full of flab, badly structured; yet hidden inside it was a jewel of a story. I was lucky to find an agent for it; it so happened that she had just started up her agency, and was looking for clients. She worked on that book with me for three years, slashing the flab, helping me restructure, basically teaching me the elements of editing, before submitting it. Making the whole thing sparkle.

She offered it to all London's publsihers but not one wanted it, though many liked it. Never mind; that was my apprentice novel, and now I'm glad it wasn't publushed! I was lucky that that agent took me on, and did so much for me for free; NO agent today would make that effort, no matter how good the book was. Heck, I was a total beginner, how was I supposed to know those skills??? I had to LEARN them.

Any writer today in the same position as I was then would be in a quandary. The story was good, but unpublishable; the agent helped me prune it and poke it into publishable form, yet it stilll got rejected. However, I learned so much, on a one-on-one basis; it was a hundred times better than any writing class.

That's the reason i went straight to a pro editor after I finished the first draft of my second novel; becuase I recognised what good edting advice can do, and knew that advice doesn't always come free - I was incredibly lucky that first time around. Remember, that was over ten years ago. Things have been getting tougher from year to year, the market more and more crowded. I didn't even have a computer, back then! Where are the agents with that time, patience and dedication, today? You can search for one; but good luck!

At the time of my second novel I still had (and still have) loads to learn about editing; it's my opinion we should always believe we have loads to learn, and not that we already know it all. Every new story has its own specific problems, and if we are growing as writers every book is probably more difficult; our skills may not be up to it. At any rate, that's how it is with me. I don't want to be a hack writer churning out books that are all the same, at the same level of competence.

Plus I had a different book, a complicated book; and I wanted it in the best form possible for publication. By that time the first agent had given up on me; when I found my new agent - directly from that paid pro editor - she said, "her loss is my gain." And indeed it was.

I don't believe by any stretch of the imagination that I know it all as a writer. I want to improve, all the time. There's ALWAYS room for improvement; and it's not always possible, as a writer, to see those flaws yourself. And good advice does not always come free.

[aruna]

Almost any novel that's bought is going to go through an editing, revising, rewriting stage, and the writer, not some professional editor that writers hires, is going to have to know how to do all this on his own. There isn't time to let that writer run back and forth to an outside editor, who he'll have to pay each time, to get the job done.



That's not what I meant at all. The professional editor's work is BEFORE the ms even gets to the slush pile; better yet, it eliminates the slush pile altogether. Once the ms is accepted the pro editor's work is absolutely over. This seems to be the basic misunderstanding. Did you think the author and the pro-editor stay together for the whole journey? No way!

Of course, after acceptance, the writer does the work on her own. That's another given.

[Nateskate]

Nateskate,



Your post #23 is excellent! I think you have a deep devotion to writing and great knowledge about the industry. Perhaps this is what the agents who shared your table saw in you as well. You must radiate your passion! Most of the time a writer needs to sell themselves in order to sell their books. It sounds as if you’ve sold yourself to some people who matter. A good start. Even if they can’t help you, they may give you a leg up just because they saw your passion and enthusiasm!



I don’t know if this is still true but several years ago, when I started writing seriously, an editor at a writer’s conference made this quote:



“For every person who ever thought about writing a book, one percent actually do.

For every person who actually writes a book, one percent get published.”



(Please correct me if I’m wrong – this isn’t written in GOLD.)



This statistic doesn’t include POD’s or Vanity Presses or Online books.



This made me want to make a good first impression with agents and publishers. Years later, I’m still studying and reading everything I can get my hands on to learn not only the craft of writing but the “how to” of writing one liner high concept pitches just to get noticed!





Shelia



p.s. I don't see the difference between a professional editor and a writing buddy with a keen eye. Every piece of word needs to be seen by other eyes, even to point out minor mistakes or problems with the time frame or story line. My husband is a writer, too and we read each other's work. Sometimes we say to each other, "She'd never do that! or "What do you mean here? What's the point of including this scene?" and "Well, if that's your point, I don't think the reader will get it." My sister who is not a writer but an avid reader often reads my work and picks out 20 or more mistakes. EVERY mistake she finds is about something I already know the rules for. It's just so difficult to read your own work, even from the last page to the first and discover mistakes. I love my stories and characters and get caught up in them so much that I miss even the most glaring mistakes! Besides it's fun to share my work with my husband, sister and writing buddies. When it's ready for an agent or publisher, I want to be proud!



Thank you for your encouragement. You really have a kind heart.

[Nateskate]

Why the agent and why the editor:

I want to explain why this editor is special to me. I knew about her personally. You might say, a friend of a friend, who has now become a friend.

I shamelessly wanted to use her. Well, not really. I wanted to pay her, and then use her. So, it would be her using me for money, and me using her to help get my book published. We would use each other, and we'd both be happy about it.

Nateskate's twisted mind: She has a direct link to a published fantasy writer with an agent- -I knew this beforehand. This is her boyfriend. Shallow as it may seem, that was in my mind when I hired her. I thought, "If she likes my story, there's a chance, she'll show it to him. If he likes it, he may show it to his agent" - Of course, if she thought it was horrible, my plan would fail miserably.

Apart from diabolical plans and schemes: She's a good-hearted person. I've talked to her enough to know she believes in me, and more importantly, what I want to convey in this story. I didn't just hand her papers, and say, "Look at this...get back to me." We talked about my life's aspirations, and connect beyond a professional level in that we agree on so many things.

When she told me what she would put into it, I knew it was more than I was paying for.

Three, my story is set in antiquity, pre-gun powder, and she is a professor of medieval studies, and one that is so good at her trade she's been recruited internationally. She has a vocabulary, and can add small details to a setting I could never think of.

The down side: I had to fit into her schedule, and that meant waiting. Yes, I'm chomping at the bit. When I got invited to this event, I never planned to talk to the agents. You know- never query until the book is ready. I figured, I'd just get information. I didn't plan to sit in the agent booth, so to speak.

Serendipity: How did I get the notice of the agents?

Divine Providence is my first guess. If I look back on the night, I knew a few of the important people there, including one of the agents. He's a heavy hitter with his own company in New York. He's not my Genre, and I talked to him before. I re-introduced myself, and told him off the bat I'm not going to bore him with any pleas. In fact, I said, I'm not ready yet. So we just chit-chatted like two old friends enjoying each other's company. I didn't realize the person sitting next to him was an agent. In retrospect, perhaps, "Hmmm...if he thinks this guy Nate is important...maybe he is important?" -I don't know. I didn't think it at the time, but who knows.

Next, the guy who runs the show, who is very big in the industry, knew me. He's not an agent, but he's well known by everyone in the business. And one of the agents said outright, "If he calls me and recommends an author...I'll jump on them right away..." (Nate-takes footnote)

I came with no desire to make a pitch. I came with no intent to try to solicit an agent. As I stated, I came, met some familiar people, and couldn't find an open seat, except the one next to the lone guy at a table, who I thought was a student or a teacher. I had no clue he was the previous night's speaker. And we just started chatting, and hitting it off.

But I believe in providence, and by the end of the night, it just seemed soooo many things were coming together, I'd best go with the flow.

The lone guy at the table is a "heavy hitter and beyond". If I told you the projects he/his company were involved in, it's way beyond authors and editors. But if you want your story turned into a movie...

So, after chatting, I asked and, "Do you know ...John..." Then of course I appologize, "Oh, you must not be a student, are you a teacher"

Well, then he had to take a call about turning a screenplay into a movie, and changes in the screenplay. "I still didn't get it, and he felt if you can write a book, you can write a screenplay." I disagreed...different skills...seeing spatially. Well, its easy to trash a book with a poorly written screenplay...."

He's the guy who brought up my story, and after I explained it briefly, he said it was something very relevent for today, and something the world needs to hear.

Then when I found out what he'd been involved in, (For me it doesn't get any bigger) I matter-of factly said, "Well, I'm impressed," and took his card, and told him, If I ever plan to get my book turned into a movie, I'll give you a call."

The other guy who joined our conversation was a publisher. And we were like three amigos talking about life and familiar places, our ties to North Carolina...etc.

Who knows? Perhaps it was one of those things where the agents thought I was "somebody" vicariously? "Oh, if he knows so and so, he must be someone important..."

Well- I learned lesson one. If you want to get noticed. Get noticed by someone the agents notice.

Lesson number two. If you can't find a place to sit, always sit next to a lonely looking guy.

[aruna]

Well, good luck to you!

I too believe that such "co-incidences" are a kind of providence. I remember going to a Bertelsman party at the Frankfurt Book fair years ago. It was overrun with hunderds of big shot industry people who all knew each other,and there was poor little me in the middle, So I sat down at a table all by myself.
After a while a lady came and sat down as well; we got to talking. She also didn't know anyone. It turned out she was a producer from Sony pictures, with a Hollywood address... We got on like a house on fire.. and it just so happened that I was in the process of adapting my first novel into a screenplay. Finally, it never went anywhere, but I still have her card, and we have emailed over the years...

As for professional editors - I've no problem with the concept, but then I live in the UK. Coming to this website I get the feeling half of all these freelance people -whether agents, editors or what have you... seem to be preditors, so I can understand the wariness. That certainly wasn't the case with mine and it seems ot me a perfectly honourable profession - something like a personal trainer, and better by far than a course in creative writing and/or writing.

Like I said, my fingers are crossed for you, whatever you decide to do.

[Nateskate]

Well, good luck to you!

I too believe that such "co-incidences" are a kind of providence. I remember going to a Bertelsman party at the Frankfurt Book fair years ago. It was overrun with hunderds of big shot industry people who all knew each other,and there was poor little me in the middle, So I sat down at a table all by myself.
After a while a lady came and sat down as well; we got to talking. She also didn't know anyone. It turned out she was a producer from Sony pictures, with a Hollywood address... We got on like a house on fire.. and it just so happened that I was in the process of adapting my first novel into a screenplay. Finally, it never went anywhere, but I still have her card, and we have emailed over the years...

As for professional editors - I've no problem with the concept, but then I live in the UK. Coming to this website I get the feeling half of all these freelance people -whether agents, editors or what have you... seem to be preditors, so I can understand the wariness. That certainly wasn't the case with mine and it seems ot me a perfectly honourable profession - something like a personal trainer, and better by far than a course in creative writing and/or writing.

Like I said, my fingers are crossed for you, whatever you decide to do.

Well, if you happen to see my editor, say hello Becky. She's in the UK right now.

As far as being taken advantage of. I really understand that's a risk, and I wanted to make sure I knew who the person was and what they were about before I got involved.

With this person, I have no fear of that. We have enough mutual friends, close friends, that there's no way she'd ever take advantage of me. She's really a sweetheart, and the only problem I see is holding her feet to the fire in terms of a timeline. But if she ever tried screwing me, which she would never do, "our mutual friends" would be all over her. In fact, our mutual friends want to see me published, so they'll eventually be on her any way. In fact, I had to tell someone to cut her some slack when they heard about the agent thing.

[aruna]

Well, if you happen to see my editor, say hello Becky. She's in the UK right now.



:) If I run into her by accident I'll say I know you!

Here's an interview with just such a professional editor, just to show that they really can be absolutely legitimate and useful. This one used to be with a major agency. Many of them used to be editors at major publishing houses, but decided they preferred to work independent of publishing politics.

http://www.writewords.org.uk/interviews/lisanne_radice.asp

[Nateskate]

And writer who needs a professional editor is not going top benefit from a professional editor, and you'll have to list all those now bestselling writers who used one.

So they send a perfectly good manuscript to a professsional editor, and pay big bucks for help they don't need in any way.

If you're a writer, then write. But being a writer means being able to edit, revise, and rewrite your own manuscript as needed.

You are really taking this whole thing to heart. And obviously, you have a passion about the whole concept. Obviously you are not new to the game, so perhaps you have a harder time seeing exactly what this world looks like to someone who is new to the game.

These agents don't even see the majority of query letters. And "These" agents I talked to, are perhaps in a different league than other agents. But in their particular league, "good" isn't "good enough". You have to "stand out" in a few sentences, or your project is rejected.

Now, why they tell me all these things, I don't know. Maybe they like me, and just felt comfortable enough to share. But the one doesn't even read most of the MS sent to her. She'll read 3-4 pages, and flip, and make up her mind in the first 3-4 pages.

Here's what I see. The least of these agents gets fifty query letters a day. Good doesn't cut it. You have to grab them in a sentence. Then if you are fortunate enough to get your M.S read, you have 3-4 pages to do it.

In your mind, as I hear it, you almost have this "Luke, trust the force...trust your instincts...put your head in a tin can and start swinging...don't peek Luke...Luke you little...you peeked."

I'm not very good at being Luke. I want to see where I'm going and what I'm swinging at. My fear is not "What I see," but what I might not see? And if that (not trusting my instincts) makes me a weak writer, well, I plan to be a successfull weak writer nonetheless.

1) There are pros and there are pros. There are people who really give you something worth paying for, and there are people who will take your money and give you little in return.

2) Hiring a "pro" is not a crutch, especially if you are a first timer. It is a reasonable expense if you want to catch a big fish. I didn't hire a "pro", because I don't believe in my writing, or my story. It's because I do believe in my writing and my story, and want to make sure I have a bow on the package.

3) I see what I've done as a wise investment. I've got something like five years tied up in over 500,000 words, which when all revisions are done, will likely be longer, but possibly six books. All books hinge on book one. As I look at it, I can't afford a small mistake at this point, or it could set me back a great deal. I'd rather pay up front.

You see. I've already passed the point of no return with this whole thing. If book one fails, a project fails, not simply a book. And I took big risks in book one. But that's what you get when you world build, and don't simply borrow someone else's world. (How many great creation stories can you think of?) Honestly. I love the Silmarillion, but I doubt it would have made it through. I didn't re-write the Silmarillion, or Genesis, or some Greek Mythology. To me, the Silmarillion has too much narrative. It's mostly read by people who fell in love with the Hobbit, and LOTR, but even of these, a great number have difficulty with it.

So, I'm taking a shot in book one of doing something few people ever do, at least successfully, or on such a scale.

I'm not simply asking this woman to dot my i-s and cross my t-s for me. This book mixes a great deal of dark and light together. You go from a cutsy talking animals garden, to the darkening of the minds, to the brink of anhilation of every single living thing on the planet. (In book one alone)
So were talking "Goldilocks"- big time. Poppa Bear this part is "Too Dark", it may need some lightening. Momma Bear, this is too light, it may need some darkening. Or, she may say, "Brilliant", don't change anything, except you need to re-word this sentence, and this comma doesn't belong here.

Beta readers included an editor that edits the work of an editor. She loved the story. My Beta readers were all very intelligent people. I'm confident I'm on the right track. But Book one was not origionally a part of the story. Only two of my Beta Readers saw it in its inception form, and thought it was fantastic.

It was a late addition, and a huge risk. Well, at any rate, I don't feel stupid for having someone go over this, or ripped off. I feel it was the wisest investment considering the stakes.

[aruna]

Here's what I see. The least of these agents gets fifty query letters a day. Good doesn't cut it. You have to grab them in a sentence. Then if you are fortunate enough to get your M.S read, you have 3-4 pages to do it.


1) There are pros and there are pros. There are people who really give you something worth paying for, and there are people who will take your money and give you little in return.

2) Hiring a "pro" is not a crutch, especially if you are a first timer. It is a reasonable expense if you want to catch a big fish. I didn't hire a "pro", because I don't believe in my writing, or my story. It's because I do believe in my writing and my story, and want to make sure I have a bow on the package.



That's the problem. In order to get your manuscript even LOOKED at it has to stand out - or, you have to know someone within the network. No doubt there are scam independent editors (I prefer that label to "professional" editors) but that doesn't mean it has to be that way. I see it as a perfectly viable option for a good writer with a great story needing work.

I don't see anything worse in hiring an indie editor for one-on-one work on a specific ms, than attending a creative writing course. Why should a teacher of creative writing be legit, but an independant consultant automatically a scam artist?

There seems to be some confusion as to who does the actual work, some suggestion of the editor being constantly at your side, and you havuing to constantly pay her - that's nonsense.

In my case, the process went like this: I sent in the full ms to the consultant. She sent back a full report, showing its weaknesses and flaws, and advising me what to do to correct them. I did most of what she suggested, over several weeks - alone. I sent it back to her for review and comment.
Next thing I knew, an agent was calling me!

It was mainly restructuring work; I had a long and very complex novel in my hands, an epic story with three character strands woven into each other, set in three continents. She advised me on how to do this; and the ms went from being a fat, flabby beast with a heart of gold to a nicely scuplted, eminently publishable book that three publishers were bidding for, and which sold to several foreign publishers.

Certainly there was never any doubt that I COULD write; but I was a beginner and my potential needed to be realised, and I needed help. Writing is a lonely job; you're on your own. You don't get a novel-writing degree before you start your first book. It's learn any way you can, and a good education is never free. That first novel you write IS your education. For me, that editor was the best investment I made in my whole life - quite literally.

In my view, a good editor should have worked within the industry already - perhaps as editor in a publishing house or an agency. She will have contacts to those houses, and some knowledge of where you might place your work.

Funnily enough, the concept of having an editorial consultant is not at all looked down upon among screenwriters. You have top people such as Linda Seger giving script assessments for $1000 and up. Nobody thinks of her as a scammer. I know Robert McKee and Syd Field have also done it. (sounds like some dirty act, doesn't it!)

There are scam artists in all fields. It's a great pity that in the field of novel-writing scammers (it appears) have blackened the profession of indie editors to the extent that writers are afraid to even consider that option.

[Tish Davidson]

Aruna and Nateskate obviously feel very strongly that having a "professional" editor work on their books will help them. Nothing the old pros say about this is going to change their minds. They will find reasons - the game has changed, the old pros don't understand how hard it is, good isn't good enough, blah blah blah. People who are convinced that a professional edit is the key to get them through the door, will pay for an edit because they are convince that is the right thing to do. Its the same with people who insist that copyrighting unpublished novels is necessary to prevent theft. Nothing anyone can say will change their minds.

My experience is that if you write a good story, it will get published. For most writers, takes a good idea, technical writing skill, understanding story structure, a good ear for language, practice, failure, practice, disatisfaction, practice, hard work, more failure, more hard work, revision, revision, revision, hard work and persistence to get published. There are no guarantees that if you put in the time, you'll come out with a publishable work, but one thing is sure, you really cannot buy your way through the process.

Advice was asked for and given, but it doesn't have to be taken. Its just opinion based on individual experience. I hope for those who pay for edits that the product meets their expectations and is publishable, but I truly believe that if it is publishable after the "professional edit" odds are extremely good that it was publishable before the editor got the manuscript and your money.

Exception: The above is true for fiction and narrative nonfiction. There are situations in non-fiction where someone is an expert in his/her field, and simply can't write clearly. The value of the expert is in his knowledge, not his writing ability. In those cases, a strong developmental edit is helpful in organizing the material. However, this is ususally done and paid for by the publisher after the book is contracted.

[Nateskate]

That's the problem. In order to get your manuscript even LOOKED at it has to stand out - or, you have to know someone within the network. No doubt there are scam independent editors (I prefer that label to "professional" editors) but that doesn't mean it has to be that way. I see it as a perfectly viable option for a good writer with a great story needing work.

I don't see anything worse in hiring an indie editor for one-on-one work on a specific ms, than attending a creative writing course. Why should a teacher of creative writing be legit, but an independant consultant automatically a scam artist?

There seems to be some confusion as to who does the actual work, some suggestion of the editor being constantly at your side, and you havuing to constantly pay her - that's nonsense.

In my case, the process went like this: I sent in the full ms to the consultant. She sent back a full report, showing its weaknesses and flaws, and advising me what to do to correct them. I did most of what she suggested, over several weeks - alone. I sent it back to her for review and comment.
Next thing I knew, an agent was calling me!

It was mainly restructuring work; I had a long and very complex novel in my hands, an epic story with three character strands woven into each other, set in three continents. She advised me on how to do this; and the ms went from being a fat, flabby beast with a heart of gold to a nicely scuplted, eminently publishable book that three publishers were bidding for, and which sold to several foreign publishers.

Certainly there was never any doubt that I COULD write; but I was a beginner and my potential needed to be realised, and I needed help. Writing is a lonely job; you're on your own. You don't get a novel-writing degree before you start your first book. It's learn any way you can, and a good education is never free. That first novel you write IS your education. For me, that editor was the best investment I made in my whole life - quite literally.

In my view, a good editor should have worked within the industry already - perhaps as editor in a publishing house or an agency. She will have contacts to those houses, and some knowledge of where you might place your work.

Funnily enough, the concept of having an editorial consultant is not at all looked down upon among screenwriters. You have top people such as Linda Seger giving script assessments for $1000 and up. Nobody thinks of her as a scammer. I know Robert McKee and Syd Field have also done it. (sounds like some dirty act, doesn't it!)

There are scam artists in all fields. It's a great pity that in the field of novel-writing scammers (it appears) have blackened the profession of indie editors to the extent that writers are afraid to even consider that option.

I relate very much to what you've said. And I understand where James is coming from, but there are exceptions to what he is referring to. You obviously want to protect people from throwing good money after bad.

Apart from the fact there are scam artists, and indifferent punctuation experts who add no substance to the substantless, I understand you have people (writers) who are simply perfecting something that isn't publishable. Well, if what I have fits that category, and Rich is trying to protect me, then I appreciate his attempt. I believe it's not the case, but if it were, so what, I'm a fool for investing so much time in this project. Money is the least thing I've wasted if this is going nowhere.

In truth, the money I'm investing is the smallest part of the overall investment. I won't be demoralized. I'll just have a little less money, and a slightly better manuscript for the fireplace. (Though I'm confident that won't happen)

But I look at Tolkien. He had already published a book, and still he had C.S.Lewis and Christopher to bounce his ideas off. And he made changes based on their comments. Give me C.S. Lewis, and I'll fire my editor. However, she's a good person, and I know she's not a rip off artist. You'd have to know the situation. She's not a fly by nighter. She's been recruited by colleges on the level of Cambridge.

I always refer to Tolkien, not because I think I'm in his class. I'm to Tolkien what the Bangles are to Beethovan. But I'm familiar with his work enough to know that he had his self doubts. Well, in the end, we'll all see. And I make no prognostications. I'll never regret having spent a relatively sane amount of money one way or the other. It just seemed the next logical step. And guess what, if I like her work, I'd use her again.

[maestrowork]

I think what Aruna and Nate meant is not a professional editor, per se, but a mentor who is willing and able to help them become better writers and learn how to edit themselves. A legit "pro" who gets paid to do the job (and spend time with you -- granted, who's got the time to do it for free?) seems to have credibility. The problem with a "beta/idiot reader" is that they may be able to tell you "this needs work and there is a big hole in the plot and I don't understand this and that," but they won't be able to tell you how you can fix it. Somehow a pro editor/book doctor can do that (for pay) and we all know... if we pay for something, it's probably good. ;)

But if you strip that all money talk away... what I think Aruna and Nate said they needed is really a mentor, someone who has the credibility and ability to steer them and teach them how to be better writers and self-editors. Unless you know a pro writer personally, who is willing to work one-on-one with you, it's hard to come by quality mentors. And paying for one might just be the key for some people.

Kind of like... well, you want to improve your golfing skills, but your friends either suck or they don't have the time to teach you or they won't teach you for fear that you will beat them on the course. So, what do you do? You hire a pro to train you, one-on-one.

Even Stephen King said something like a good mentor can make a competent/good writer a better one. But no person on Earth can make a bad writer a good one.

[aruna]

I think what Aruna and Nate meant is not a professional editor, per se, but a mentor who is willing and able to help them become better writers and learn how to edit themselves. A legit "pro" who gets paid to do the job (and spend time with you -- granted, who's got the time to do it for free?) seems to have credibility. The problem with a "beta/idiot reader" is that they may be able to tell you "this needs work and there is a big hole in the plot and I don't understand this and that," but they won't be able to tell you how you can fix it. Somehow a pro editor/book doctor can do that (for pay) and we all know... if we pay for something, it's probably good. ;)

But if you strip that all money talk away... what I think Aruna and Nate said they needed is really a mentor, someone who has the credibility and ability to steer them and teach them how to be better writers and self-editors. Unless you know a pro writer personally, who is willing to work one-on-one with you, it's hard to come by quality mentors. And paying for one might just be the key for some people.

Kind of like... well, you want to improve your golfing skills, but your friends either suck or they don't have the time to teach you or they won't teach you for fear that you will beat them on the course. So, what do you do? You hire a pro to train you, one-on-one.

Even Stephen King said something like a good mentor can make a competent/good writer a better one. But no person on Earth can make a bad writer a good one.

:Clap: well put, maestro!

[Tish Davidson]

Let's go back to the first post in this thread. Nateskate said:

I got someone who has a Ph.D in Medieval lit, who is published, and has editing experience. I gave her my Manuscript, and I also made a nice sized downpayment. There's no doubt in my mind this woman is good, and that when she's done, it will be ready. She's a good hearted person who really wants to see me published.

Note that Nateskate has said "when she is done, it will be ready."

This doesn't sound like a mentor, it sounds like a book doctor or editor. To me the difference is this. A mentor points out problem spots and suggests solutions, but the writer has to do the actual work to correct the problems. An editor or book doctor takes the manuscript and makes the improvements then returns it to the author as "finished." She may explain why she made changes, but basically she does the work,which can range from proofreading to semi-major changes in structure. A mentor encourages the writer to do the work himself and thus grow as a writer.

Mentors are hard to find, and paying to work with one who is carefully chosen and experienced in both editing and critiquing and is current in what is going on in publishing can be very helpful at certain stages in the writer's career or the life of the manuscript. What the writer should take away from the paid mentoring are concrete examples of where the book is weak and where it is strong and suggestions for improving the weak parts along with a good idea of why the weak parts don't work. Normally the mentoring continues through several sessions as the writer attempts to implement the changes. This is not what most book doctors/professional editors do. You don't hire a golf pro to enter a tournament for you. You hire him to explain and demonstrate how to improve your own game, and then you work on improving your skills in the ways he has suggested. I think what James was saying in his posts (excuse me James if I am putting words in your mouth) is that if you want to be a career writer, you need to do the work of improving your book yourself, and that paid editing is not somehow a shortcut to publication and will not necessarily make the book better.

Aruna's experience seems to have been with someone who served the function mentor, (regardless of what she called herself) and obviously it worked for her and it improved her book. However, this is quite different from sending the book out to be "professionally edited."

[aruna]

Aruna's experience seems to have been with someone who served the function mentor, (regardless of what she called herself) and obviously it worked for her and it improved her book. However, this is quite different from sending the book out to be "professionally edited."

Thanks for clarifying! Indeed, I used the word "editor" to mean "editor is their profession." The official name for the job they do, at least here in England, is "editorial consultant". Basically, she does the same work as a publisher's content editor, just at a much earlier stage. It is certainly clear to me that a writer MUST have a good command of the language, grammar and so on, before even embarking on a novel.

The idea of giving my ms to an editor to do the work is, of course, ludicrous. It was never what I meant, and I am sorry if I have caused any confusion due to vocabulary.

[Nateskate]

I'm not sure my editor is really classifiable. She doesn't advertise herself as an editor, or solicit jobs. She's far too busy. She has done editing, but her primary profession is as a college prof. Actually, some of the others in her dept have done full time editing for publishing houses, but I didn't want them. Word on the street is that she's very gifted, and in demand (internationally), but does what she does, when she does- because she feels like it, and has that luxury. But the downside for me is it's on her schedule.

Dr -- has only done selective projects that have interested her. The only reason I got her, is because of mutual friends. The major cost isn't money. For me, its time. I've even been tempted to forget it and see if I get signed without her input, but I'm also curious now to see what she can contribute.

Is she a mentor? Well, she hasn't done any menting yet. I'm pretty sure she will let me know if she sees fatal flaws, and I've given her license to make any suggestion she thinks will improve my story.

I know it's personal with her. She believes in me and my project. It's just nice knowing someone is interested.

Again, we'll see. Obviously I'm not asking her to, or letting her write my story for me. So, she's not a ghost writer/book doctor. I don't think I need that. If I did, I might do that. But that would be if I'm looking at the ceiling from rejection row, which hasn't happened yet, and I hope it doesn't. Honestly, my only motivation was that I wanted my book shelf-ready before an agent sees it, and figured this was the way to ensure that.

In general, I'm upbeat from the feedback I've gotten on the story (getting compared to writers I never heard of and such)- I don't know if that's a good thing or not. But I take it that if you get compared to anyone whose published, its a good thing. Except again, my son, who thinks I've ripped-off everyone in the world from Moses to Tolkien. But he's coming around a little.

[Jaws]

That's not what I meant at all. The professional editor's work is BEFORE the ms even gets to the slush pile; better yet, it eliminates the slush pile altogether. Once the ms is accepted the pro editor's work is absolutely over. This seems to be the basic misunderstanding. Did you think the author and the pro-editor stay together for the whole journey? No way!
I think maybe you misunderstood what I said. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is incorrect. The point of Gordon's comment was that the professional editor's work doesn't get one out of the slush pile.

How does one get out of the slush pile? Almost all the time, one of these ways: Getting an agent… which usually requires going through a different slush pile
Knowing the editor personally in another context, describing the project, and having the editor request the manuscript (then it's not in the slush pile)
Sending an appropriate query package to the editor (again, this is just a different kind of slush pile), which piques the editor's interest enough to request the manuscript (then it's not in the slush pile)
Being such a big celebrity or well-known expert in the field that editors come to you with solicitations
I'm sure there are other ways to get out of the slush pile; I'm also sure that some people win the lottery. I don't count on hitting the lottery for my budgetary needs, and neither should any previously unpublisher writer count on methods not awfully similar to the above to get a manuscript out of a publisher's slush pile.

[James D. Macdonald]

There are two kinds of manuscripts in this world: Solicited and unsolicited. The solicited ones are the ones where they asked you to send it. All the others are slush.

[aruna]

I think maybe you misunderstood what I said. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is incorrect. The point of Gordon's comment was that the professional editor's work doesn't get one out of the slush pile.

How does one get out of the slush pile? Almost all the time, one of these ways:


There seems generally a huge misunderstanding. I would never never recommend sending an unsolicited manuscript to an agent or publisher, and have never done so; nor did I claim that an editor could get you out of a slush pile. That is a ridiculous notion.

But some people do (submit unsolicited manuscripts); and in such a case it might as well be a really well-written one. Obviously it is better to avoid the slush pile altogether; isn't this what I have been saying all along?

If I do recommend an independent editor, it is to improve a manuscript. No matter how good we think we are, there is almost always room for improvement - even for previously published authors. As writers, we learn by writing. We are also in love with our work, and can't see it objectively.

A professional, independent editor can do what a friend - even a friend with a BA in English - can't do.

Novel writing is a skill; to get a manuscript to a publishable stage needs more ability than the beginning writer can ever imagine. Most first-timers think it's enough to finish the first draft and then go over it for grammar and spelling mistakes. That's very far from the case. You may have the most wonderful story ever written, but it is still unpublishable because you simply don't have the skills to structure it properly, to dramatise it, and so on.

If you know someone with a professional eye for the mechanics of novel-writing, who will help you for free, all well and good. If you don't, then what?


Obviouly, my manuscript already had the potential to be publishable even BEFORE I requested help. Obviously, there are some manuscripts so bad they ca never ever be improved beyond being made slightly less unpublishable.

I am referring to manuscripts like mine: great stories but needing lots of work. There is nothing at all inany way dishounrable in having such a manuscript, especially if, like me, you plunge straight in without ever taking a writing course or reading a book on writing technique, with just the story pouring out onto the page.

I have never been in a slush pile. I have always sent queries, and on the queries getting a yes, sent in partials. But if you do choose to send in an unsolicited manuscript (which I do NOT recommend) then at least make sure it stands out from the junk. Even it is no-good, at least you have made put in the effort, and you have learnt something, and the next one might have better luck.

I don't think yoyu were being mean but you seem to not have read my post properly. I am aware of the process for getting published, you know!

I don't think that having a professional editor is a fast track to getting published. But a really good editor might have contacts in the publishing world; and, should she come across a jewel of a book, she can help it get to the right person quicker.

[Nateskate]

I'm convinced that most people don't know what they are up against when they start out. I know I wasn't. However, my approach has been unconventional from the start.

Instead of "giving it a go," with what I had, I did web searches on what the market was looking for. And when I saw specific things coming up-pacing, book size, I took them to heart. I reformated and revised book one, and now I'm finished with book two. However, I didn't expect to be done with book two before this person was finished with book one.

It's not that I feel anything is beyond "rejection", but I wanted to study this whole thing to limit the submission-rejection-submission-rejection merry-go-round. Jim always said, "Write the best book you can write."

I guess it's a matter of opinion if you stop there. It seems to me that many people have attempted to do that, and think they've written their best, but they are still unagented and unpublished. It just seemed most logical to get a second opinion before submitting. But I wanted an opinion of someone who knows the standards I'll be up against. And I wanted someone who could be brutally honest, whether that leads to praise or rebuke.

I'm convinced some editors (not likely the ones who work for a publishing company) can actually make a good story worse. So, again, I didn't just look for the first person who had a shingle on the door-editor for hire- free lollipop for every hundred you plunk down.

And again, this may be unnecessary for many here. In my mind, I took some literary gambles, and tried my best to make them work. I'm looking forward to seeing it through someone else's eyes.

[Nateskate]

For a kid that grew up with a rebellious streak, It may seem odd that I now respect my mother's advice. She was all for the "Strike while the iron is hot" vote. As far as the down payment, she was pretty much for writing it off, and just letting the editor keep it.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Nate

[cwfgal]

After years of writing, submitting, and accumulating rejections, I was desperate for some concrete, specific feedback. Why didn't my writing sell? What was I doing wrong? And what was I doing right? It felt to me then (and still does at times) that writing takes place in a vacuum of sorts. Honest, helpful feedback is very hard to find.

After many writing classes (every college elective I took was writing related) I approached a graduate student/published novelist/instructor from a creative writing class I was taking. I offered to pay him for an in-depth critique of my current WIP, one chapter at a time, once the class was over. He agreed and we met weekly all summer long at a little cafe on campus. Each week I gave him a new chapter and he would give me back the one from the previous week. We would discuss his comments on the critiqued chapter for a half hour or so (over coffee or beer, depending on the hour and the mood), during which he would share his thoughts, ask some questions, offer some suggestions. He hit on my strengths and the things I did well as much as he did on the stuff that sucked. He was honest, sometimes brutally so, and I took his criticism to heart. It wasn't always easy to listen and not get defensive but I'd learned long ago that if I couldn't put aside my defensiveness during a critiquing process, I wouldn't get the maximum benefit from it.

The criticism I received from this arrangement proved very helpful. I didn't feel overwhelmed anymore, trying to hunt amongst tens of thousands of words to determine what was good and what wasn't. I developed a level of confidence with many of my own instincts. I developed a "feel" for the writing process. I learned to recognize certain problems and how to fix them. I developed a better understanding of story structure and flow, telling vs showing, and active vs passive prose.

The novel I wrote during this critiquing/mentoring process never got published. But the one I wrote next did and I honestly think my paid mentor/critiquer played a huge role in that. If I could have found someone to do all this for me for free, I'd have been delighted. But it's a huge commitment of time and effort for the critiquer and I figured paying for that time would not only make me feel less guilty about asking for what I wanted, it would also make the other person feel more obligation, to work hard at the process to ensure I got my money's worth. For me it was worth every penny.

Beth