Second attempt: Conflict with Betas

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5bcarnies

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I tried posting a thread and AW booted me out as I clicked post. So let's try this again, shall we?

Two months ago I sent out my completed ms to 10 beta readers. All loved it. All gave it high praise, except for the occasional grammatical oopsie. Most of that came from writing it all in present tense then switching to past. Aside from grammatical oopsies there were three other issues.

Reader 1) Felt like he jumped into the middle of the story not the beginning. At the time that statement was made he hadn't gotten past the first couple of chapters. I don't know how much of this I should take to heart.

Reader 2) Did not feel for the heroine until chapter three. That is when all hell brakes loose. She didn't love or hate the character but did feel compelled to read on. Later in the book the heroine was able to get through to this reader and give her a good solid cry and made her laugh up to that point. Bonus, right?

Reader 3) Felt as if she were reading book 2 rather than book 1. She also stated that there was not enough backstory. Honestly, this beta has given me a lot of problems. No return phone calls. No return emails. She basically blew me off for the last two months until today. I do not know if she actually read it all but I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

The others hooted and hollered about how much they loved my work. They can't wait for book 2.

Two of my readers are in the publishing business; one if a critic, the other was an editor before she got cancer. When I put this issues in front of them they did not see them as issues at all. They stated the flow was great. I grabbed their attention and made them hold on tight with each word.

I guess I am wondering how others take advice from their readers. I tend to take advice well but I think I went with too many readers and now don't know what to fix and what not to worry about, all grammar oopsies aside. The ironic question is, I am asking for more advice.
 

ORION

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To be honest there are only two things I ask for from betas.
1. where they stopped reading
2. any wtf's
I generally don't use them for plot arc, pacing etc as they usually don't know enough about those things- 10 readers are a LOT of betas.
You don't say which draft this is or whether you are ready to query...if this is an early draft the best thing you can do is set it aside for a month and start something else... if you've already done this then maybe it's time to query.
At some point you have to have confidence in yourself to know who to listen to and when to move on.
 

NeuroFizz

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Why do you call this "conflict with betas"? It seems you are complaining about the specific comments that don't match up with the majority view (of raving about your writing). First and foremost, you asked for opinions from your betas, who gave their time free of charge. Try to sound a little more thankful.

As for the problem of weeding through the comments and making changes, feel free to ignore any comments you don't think fit the project. But realize that if a reader was confused about something, or didn't get your intended feel in a part of the story, maybe you didn't do such a good job of getting it across (even if it was just one of the reviewers). In other words, before you reject any criticism from a reader, take one last look to see if there was a better way to get your information across. I've found in most cases it was my fault when a reader missed something or misunderstood something in my writing, and the fixes were usually quite easy to accomplish.
 

firedrake

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My Beta reader is very good at what she does. She puts a great deal of work into Beta-reading my work. She doesn't sugar-coat but she also gives praise where praise is due.

The bottom line with Beta readers, they spend a great deal of time, their own time without recompense. I appreciate the time anyone takes to criticise my work whether it's here, in the SYW forum, or people kindly offering to read stuff for me, whether it's the entire MS or a few chapters. Sometimes, real life gets in the way and a reader can't always give the time that's needed. Patience and gratitude are always useful attributes for a writer to have when it comes to Betas.

If your readers are picking up on the same stuff then there's a problem.
If they're picking up on different stuff, then, I guess it's up to you to decide what works best for you. Beta's criticise, comment and offer opinions but, in the end, it's your book.
 

5bcarnies

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Thank you very much, Orion.

Sorry about leaving those tidbits out. My first attempt to post was eaten by cyberspace and I was in a rush to get as much on here as possible. There was a lot I forgot to mention in my rush.

The ms is complete. Before sending it out I revised as much as I could before my eyes crossed. Meaning, I revised the book twice. The first time I took out the old red pen and edited the hard way while I read out loud. The second time was more basic with the computer. Adding or subtracting bigger clumps here and there.

I feel I am ready to start querying. I think I am just a little leary of making ubber changes. I like what I've written and others have as well. But those few comments have me doubting myself a little. I know I cannot make everyone happy. People have their own quirks with what they like and don't like. Perhaps my fear is that the comments were about the first couple chapters.

On top of which, I am grateful for my readers. Like I said I was in a rush typing this out. The first version was far more detailed. Every time I spoke with or attempted to get in contact with the readers I let them know how much I appreciated their help. Please do not think me rude and disrespectful. Maybe one of the reasons I feel conflicted is because I couldn't satisfy them fully.
 
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dgrintalis

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In my mind, when you have several betas, they are going to point out things which stand out to them. If all three point out the same things, you probably have an issue. If they point out different things, you may have issues or it may be due to their personal likes and/or dislikes.

Here is my take on your readers' comments:
Reader 1 - I don't know your story so I guess all I can say is did you start your story at the logical beginning? If so, maybe that reader is used to a slower build-up. (Again, not knowing your story or your genre, I can only guess.) Did anyone else make a similar comment?
Reader 2 - Is that so bad? I mean, it takes time to get to know a character. After three chapters (unless yours are very, very long) the reader is still getting to know them.). Did you include enough of your character's personality in those chapter so they feel real? How much later did it take for the connection to happen?
Reader 3 - With respect to backstory, did you include what was necessary to the story?
 

5bcarnies

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I really appreciate every comment. That scardy cat feeling is withdrawing with new dedicated resolve.

And D, those questions were a tremedous help.

Thanks
~Colleen
 

Samantha's_Song

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A bit of helpful advice for you... Whenever you're doing something more than a few sentences long for the internet, like for forums, always use MS Word, Notepad, or any other writing programme to write it out first. At least you only have to copy and paste, especially if anything goes wrong. Get into a habit with this and you'll never lose anything again. :)

I tried posting a thread and AW booted me out as I clicked post. So let's try this again, shall we?
 

sunandshadow

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Reader 1 and 3 sound like they are saying the same thing to me - they feel like the first few chapters did not sufficiently orient them to the world, the initial action, and the motives for that action. Reader 2's comments about not feeling drawn into empathizing with the main character could also be hilighting the same problem: insufficient or failed orientation to the main character's motives and possibly other emotional content of the story in the first 3 chapters.

(On an unrelated note, I recently got two commentless reps from you and was a bit puzzled by that.)
 

5bcarnies

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Thanks Samantha, I will keep that in mind for future posts.

Sunandshadow, I've been thinking about moving the backstory to the front making it more yam-bam-thank you-ma'am. The only thing stopping me is that there is a seven year gap. It's a vampire story and the backstory talks about how she was sired and how her mother died. She's a young vampire and the seven year gap is because there really wasn't much that happens that pertains to the series. Just a lot of wondering and hiding. The heroine was sheepish after she became a vampire. The story picks up as her and her comrads are going to a meeting. After the meeting is where her life takes a sharp turn since she became a vampire.

Right now I reveal the backstory is rather magical kind of way. I'm worried if I change it that could lessen the relationship between her and the hero. It was an important bounding moment.

(As for the commentless reps, I have no idea why there was nothing stated. I remember leaving comments in every rep I've made. Now that it has been awhile I cannot recall what it was inregards to. I either laughed or agreed with something you said.)
 

maestrowork

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To be honest there are only two things I ask for from betas.
1. where they stopped reading
2. any wtf's

Same here. I don't ask my betas for writing advices. I don't brainstorm with them (that's what my writing buddies and crit groups are for). I don't get notes from 10 betas and start spinning my head. In fact, unless they have special concerns that stop them from enjoying the book, I chalk it up as a taste issue. Generally, I don't use writers or editors as my betas simply because they have a tendency to try to "fix things" or how they would write it. Instead, I want my betas to focus on the READING (not the writing): story, characters, etc. and tell me how they felt AFTER they read the story, or if they couldn't finish the story: why? What stopped them? What are the "it doesn't make sense" moments?

If you have 10 betas and try to come to some kind of consensus among their advices, then I think you're approaching this wrong. It seems like you're having a critique session instead of beta read. Perhaps your ms. still needs workshopping, and that's fine. But beta read, for me, is a totally different thing.
 
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cinders23

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Just based on what you have posted here, I wouldn't be concerned about these few that didn't necessarily respond all that great. You have a majority that liked your book and some of them very experienced people. This should give you a good deal of confidence in your work. There are always going to be a few people who, for whatever reason, can't relate to a certain story. Always...and some of them might give bad advice. You have to be careful not to listen to them. Like the comment about not enough backstory...If you added more backstory then what? You'd get five other people saying you have too much backstory and it's bogging it down.

Best,

Cindy.
 
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NeuroFizz

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Sorry, but getting different responses from different reviewers isn't a reason to automatically consider any of the comments as "bad advice." Each comment should be considered by the author and only after that serious consideration should it be acted upon or rejected. Not all reviewers catch the same things in a story, and different people read in different ways. Just because one out of ten sees a potential problem and the other nine didn't similarly comment doesn't mean that one person is giving bad advice. And having a story critiqued is never about bolstering one's ego. It's all about making the story the best it can be for the readers who are going to be asked to spend their money on that story.

To me, the reviews that are all glowing praise are the least useful in getting a manuscript submission ready. We shouldn't be sending our stories out to betas until we think they are close to submission ready, at which point we should not NEED our egos stroked. We should already have confidence the stories are close to ready.
 
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5bcarnies

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I apologize if I have given any wrong or whiney-like empressions.(And I mean this in the nicest way no sarcasm) This is my first manuscript. I don't have a writing group or a critique group. I'm trying to figure this out on my own. Between this site and a couple yahoo groups I really don't have contact with writers. I've tried finding local groups but there doesn't seem to be any. Libraries, bookstores, college campuses; there was none to be found. The closest affiliations to me are two hours away.

The critic is a friend of mine and has been fo many years. Bouncing things off him was as close to a writing group as I've got. As for the editor, that was a complete suprise to me. She is a friend of my husband from his youth. He set it up. Had I known she used to be an editor I probably wouldn't have said okay.

All the points everyone has mentioned about what they do with their readers is what I originally intended to do. I've come to realize I had one to many chefs in the kitchen and it fried my brain.

I wanted to make everyone happy. I didn't. It wasn't about ego. I am the type of person that wants to go out of their way to do everything for everyone. I failed. It was my first experience with having people read my work. My skin has thickened. I know now the path I have to take.

Thank you for help. I did come off wrong in this thread and for that I apologize.
 

RunawayScribe

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I have a couple wonderful beta readers. Often I take their suggestions, but I don't take all of them. I consider them, definitely, and reread my work and spend time reflecting on whether or not I agree with them. If I don't, it's my story - not theirs. It's ultimately my call what will help and what would hurt.

That said, if three readers all crit the same aspect of my story and say similar things, I'm not stupid. There's probably something wrong with it if multiple others agree that there is.

So yeah. Take everything for what it's worth, be grateful for the inflow of opinions and use your common sense and creative authority to make the final call.

By the way, ten beta readers? Holy hell. Sounds like a lot to handle, but in a way sounds nice - lots of ideas and reactions to the same thing could offer up a lot to think about, I'd imagine.
 
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