Teen / Twen Writers

[Mistook]

I'm just curious as to how many writers we have here at the cooler who are in their teens and their twenties. I've been to other boards where young writers are in the majority, and the issues discussed are often very different than we see here.

I think AWWC is very strong when it comes to learning the tricks of the trade, and for enormously protracted discussions about the semicolon through history, but where's the new blood?

[Jamesaritchie]

but where's the new blood?

We drank it. I've been to boards where the majority had new blood running trhough their veins. Can't say I liked it much. They always seemed more interested in video games and movies than in writing.

[Mistook]

We drank it. I've been to boards where the majority had new blood running trhough their veins. Can't say I liked it much. They always seemed more interested in video games and movies than in writing.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't anywhere near your thirties, James, when you were first published. Don't you hold out any hope that among the game-obsessed slackers there are a few good writers?

[jules]

Well, I'm 29, so I just about fit your requirements. :)

I have to say, I hadn't noticed any discrepancy between this board and the others I use, but it is kind-of hard to tell when you only have the words to look at.

[Jamesaritchie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't anywhere near your thirties, James, when you were first published. Don't you hold out any hope that among the game-obsessed slackers there are a few good writers?

Good potential writers, yes, but you learn how to write by writing and by reading massive amounts of fiction, and you learn what to write about by getting out of the house and living, not by playing games and sitting in from of a TV or computer.

So, no, I don't hold out a lot of hope that the game-obsessed slackers will produce many good writers.

[black winged fighter]

Well...
I'm 18, a writer, and most of my friends are avid readers and good writers or poets. I know a few other writers here who are around about my age, a few a little older, and a few a little younger.
Don't worry about young blood - we'll keep coming...

[sunandshadow]

I'm 24. I am interested in writing for videogames, and I would love to write an animated movie script if I thought it had a hope in hell of being produced (don't care for live-action movies much), but I also love novels and literary theory. I found this board because I am working on my first novel and wanted help with plotting it.

[alanna]

::raises hand:: I fit the "new blood" category.

[loquax]

I'm 18, and I love video games and anime. I always suspected that our generation would grow up to write books that are not only influenced by other books, but also films, television, music, videogames and japanese animation. We have had much more exposure to other cultures through growing up with the internet and cable tv, and I think that in the very near future we will be producing some quite exciting literature because of it.

[Jamesaritchie]

I'm 18, and I love video games and anime. I always suspected that our generation would grow up to write books that are not only influenced by other books, but also films, television, music, videogames and japanese animation. We have had much more exposure to other cultures through growing up with the internet and cable tv, and I think that in the very near future we will be producing some quite exciting literature because of it.

I think the big mistake the young make is in thinking there's anything new about all of this. I don't think the young now have nearly as much exposure to other cultures as my generation had. What the young now have is pixels. Electronic pixels. Not exposure. It isn't real. It's merely the illusion of exposure. It shows in the writing.

As for film, TV, music, video games and japanese animation, none of these are new, and they ruined just as many potential writers during my generation as they're ruining now.

Literature is produced by reading and writing literature, and culture is known by getting out of the house and mingling, travelling, and seeing something other than pixels. It's just wrong to think you really know someone, either personally or by culture, from contact over the internet. Again, all you have is teh illusion of knowing them. You see only the side of them they write about, and even this is seldom real.

We're all different in person than we are online.

Forget the TV, movies, video games, japanese animation, the internet, and get out of the house. Join the army, join the Peace Corps, hitchhike to Mexico or Ireland or somewhere, anywhere, and get to know a real culture with real people.

[loquax]

Well, we'll see won't we?

[Kida Adelyne]

Literature is produced by reading and writing literature, and culture is known by getting out of the house and mingling, travelling, and seeing something other than pixels. It's just wrong to think you really know someone, either personally or by culture, from contact over the internet. Again, all you have is teh illusion of knowing them. You see only the side of them they write about, and even this is seldom real.

We're all different in person than we are online.

Forget the TV, movies, video games, japanese animation, the internet, and get out of the house. Join the army, join the Peace Corps, hitchhike to Mexico or Ireland or somewhere, anywhere, and get to know a real culture with real people.

Ever heard of exchange trips? We have more first hand experience than you may realise. Many young people, aspiring writers and artists amoung the majority, go on cross-cultural experiences every year. I'm not saying that we have more experience than you're generation, but we probably have the same amount.

You were young once too James. Everyone starts somewhere. Usually at the begining.



-Ally (who is 16 years)

[Jamesaritchie]

Ever heard of exchange trips? We have more first hand experience than you may realise. Many young people, aspiring writers and artists amoung the majority, go on cross-cultural experiences every year. I'm not saying that we have more experience than you're generation, but we probably have the same amount.

You were young once too James. Everyone starts somewhere. Usually at the begining.



-Ally (who is 16 years)

Sure, but how many who are video game-obsessed and internet obsessed take advantage of exchange trips?

There are many good younger writers, some with incredible talent. All I'm saying is that some things haven't changed. You still learn to write well by reading and by writing, and you still learn about life by getting out and living it.

I know you who have never even been to an ethnic neighborhhod in their own city, but thing they know all about the people who live there by chatting with them on instant messenger.

You still can't learn how to write by watching TV, teh movies, or by playing games, and you still can't get to know how people really live and act by trying to do it through the internet.

[loquax]

You still can't learn how to write by watching TV, teh movies, or by playing games, and you still can't get to know how people really live and act by trying to do it through the internet.
I beg to differ. We, as a generation, have everything you had for inspiration, and more. Video games with incredibly complicated plotlines and deeply involved characters, written by writers. Films and animations, created and written by writers. Drawn by artists. Care to go over to the screenwriting section and tell them that their work is useless?

I just so happen to be going on a round the world trip in a few months. I'll be spending time in india, china, south-america, and I'll be working as a counsellor at an american summer camp. It's not as if kids don't do these things any more. It's just that we have a greater range of things to do, which I see as a positive thing, not a negative one.

The more we are exposed to, the more we can write about.

[Tish Davidson]

I think that perhaps the difference in perception of experience comes from the fact that many young people do not start living on their own until their mid to late twenties, and many of the problems faced by earlier generations of young people are mitigated by parental support long after the age of majority. Many cros-cultural and travel experiences for young adults are orchestrated by organizations and paid for by parents where earlier generations people got drafted, married, went to work, at a younger age, and the abundance of teen tours, travel camps, church work expeditions abroad, etc. simply did not exist. You either got your experience compliments of the military or your own individual initiative. With a larger percentage of the young population starting college and taking more than 4 years to finish, the independent experience factor gets pushed up in age. What I see in this generation is more organized group experiences and less individual experiences. This is, of course, a generalization, and is not meant as a value judgement on these organized experiences, simply how it looks from the other side of the age divide.

I do worry, though, that young people who are attached to the umbilical cord of the cell phone and instant communications will grow up with untested judgments and an inability to make even minor decisions without endless consultation. As parents I think we need to encourage independence in kids and teach them not to be afraid of the world, but to go out and challenge it. Instead, I see a generation of parents who get bent out of shape if they can't direct their kid's lives well into adulthood, and i see a generation of kids who are afraid to try new things and fail.

[Paul J. Andrew]

I think I fit the new blood category. I'm 25, and I'll go on the record as saying I spend far too much time with the video games and the movies. But aside from those the other thing I do is read. Every day since I was 10 when I first found The Lord of the Rings. So, yeah, it's entirely possible that my fondness for games and movies has slowed down my progress as a writer, but I'll get there eventually. As to whether what I write is any good or not... well, anyone with an opinion is more than welcome to critique/slaughter what I've posted in the share your work scifi/fantasy forum.

:hat:

[loquax]

I'm working nights in a warehouse to save money for my year away. My parents do not have the money to fund me. And I'm organising everything myself. The only reason I'm going to a summer camp is that it's damn expensive to live in the USA, so I need to work.

Even though many people will be going abroad through 'organisations' (I don't know any myself), at least they are getting some worldy experience in the first place. I can only assume that travel is getting cheaper, and more accessible, meaning that as the years go on, more and more youths will be travelling. I'm sure there weren't many people in the seventies going trekking around the world. As you say, they got married, grabbed some office job and are still working to this day.

[Tish Davidson]

I don't think that travel is necessary to gain experience. Experience is gained by facing new situations and making decisions about how to handle them. Travel only expedites this process. Again, there are so many individual situations that one can't generalize about "youth," but I do think that my generation has been so overprotective as parents that young people often are retarded (in the sense of delayed) in the genuine experience department and tend to confuse knowing about something from having experienced it.

[loquax]

"Experience is gained by facing new situations and making decisions about how to handle them"

I'll agree with that. But I'd like to add that only dead people do not do those things. Parents can protect us, but not from as much as you would like to think.

[reph]

I'm sure there weren't many people in the seventies going trekking around the world.
No? What do you think hippies did?

[loquax]

Sat around and wallowed in their own acid-influenced filth whilst listening to jimmi hendrix and eating granola. No offence - sounds like a blast if you ask me.

[Tish Davidson]

"Experience is gained by facing new situations and making decisions about how to handle them"

I'll agree with that. But I'd like to add that only dead people do not do those things. Parents can protect us, but not from as much as you would like to think.

I see a trend toward collective decision making in young people in the US. rather than facing situations and making individual decisions. Certainly collaboration and consensus building acquired a new shine when Japan's economic engine was roaring and the US was puttering along. Their consensus management style was touted as the way to make things work, and collaborative decision making became popular in school curricula. The young adult population have been the recipients of this trend.

As a side effect of that and new technologies, I see it daily in the life of my own 19 and 23 year old children, especially the younger, that decisions about what to do, where to go, who to hang out with, etc. occur only after rounds of IMs and cell calls. Now, some of this consensus building can be a good thing, but it also serves to insulate individuals from having to take responsiblity for their mistakes. Wisdom and experience are gained from in making decisions and responding to their consequences. This unwillingness to make individual decisions and to accept individual responsibility for them is a real change I see from my generation to that of my children. In some ways, they are more tolerant, more flexible individuals, but in other ways, they are less willing to accept ownership for the results of of decisions made collectively. I wonder if that will have an effect on
originality and creativity in their writing.

So much of life today (in the US anyway) is geared toward success, helping your children become successful, preventing failure, building self-esteem, etc. What does that do to risk taking and decision making? I don't know, but I've often thought I should write an article on why failure can be good for people.

[loquax]

Get ready for a whole load of unavoidable patronization (sorry!)

Are you saying that teenage cliques are only modern occurances?

On the subject of decisions, if people don't come to a consensus about 'where they are going to go out', they tend to all go to different places and not meet each other. This defeats the point of the activity. Social events require people to discuss and come to conclusions. If everybody makes their own decisions... become independant... then there is no more social activity. No social activity means very little to write about.

If you are talking about more important decisions than this, then please give an example. Or a scenario, even. Tell me what your child would do when faced with the question of "what university do I go to". Would they say A) "Brad is going to study Woodshop, and even though I don't like it, I'm gonna do it too because Brad is cool and I don't care about my future", or B) "I like Mathematics and I wish to become an engineer. I want to go to Harvard"

?

[Tish Davidson]

Are you saying that teenage cliques are only modern occurances?

Absolutely not. Teen cliques have always existed, although i do think they tend to go on longer beyond teendom than in the past. What I am saying is that advances in instant technological access make teens more dependent on soliciting the opinions of their peers than ever before


If you are talking about more important decisions than this, then please give an example. Or a scenario, even. Tell me what your child would do when faced with the question of "what university do I go to". Would they say A) "Brad is going to study Woodshop, and even though I don't like it, I'm gonna do it too because Brad is cool and I don't care about my future", or B) "I like Mathematics and I wish to become an engineer. I want to go to Harvard"

?

Interesting you should bring up this as an example, since my younger daughter went through the college application process this year. Yes, I did find that there was quite a lot of communication resulting in a consensus about which schools to apply to, and that people were significantly influenced by where their friends were applying. I don't know how this played out in terms of final college selection, because many people were not accepted at the same schools as their friends, or they did not get the financial aid or scholarships they needed to attend. I do know a number of entering freshman who are going to the same school and who have chosen to be roommates freshman year because they are concerned about living with "strangers." My daughter actually got a lot of grief because she chose to attend a school on the opposite coast from where we live - a right decision for her, but it was very difficult for her friends to understand why she would want to break away from her crowd and try a new environment.

However, your example does not address the question of how this collectivization of decision making, constant opinion sampling, instant communication, media homogenous world your generation seems to live in will affect their CREATIVITY. If people go to the same social spots, travel in organized groups, and are exposed to the same media, and they are risk averse to taking the initiative in decision making and and seeking individual challenges, how will this affect their ability to create something that is creatively new and vital? I don't have a preconceived answer to this, I'm just asking and trying not to be patronizing.

[Jamesaritchie]

For me, it isn't about teens, it's about writers. You have to separate the two. How teens live and spend their time and make their decisions in general really doesn't matter. It's how writers live, spend their time, and make their decisions, whatever their age.

There have always been teen cliques, always been what was probably a sizable majority of teens who did one thing or another to fill their time with things that were not at all helpful for a future as a writer.

The question is what should those teens do who want to maximize their chances of being a professional writer. Playing games and watching movies, or Japanese animation, isn't it. Staying home isn't it.

Darned few teens of my generation, even those who expressed an interest in being writers, did the helpful things, either.

The young really do think it's a new world, but it really isn't. I think people who are under thirty believe the internet was invented yesterday, and video games the day before. And don't realize how many ways there were of wasting time in the "old days."

Writers have always had to make the same choices. Do you read enough, do you write enough, do you get out and see the real world enough? This hasn't changed, and the way writers live has always been different from the way those around them live.

If you go to a college creative writing class today, or to an MFA class, you can find a lot of beautiful writing, but it's empty of real experience. And it doesn't sell.

The question really isn't what teens do, that's what you write about. The question is what a writer of any age needs to do to gain both the skill and the worldly experience writers need.

[Tish Davidson]

Writers have always had to make the same choices. Do you read enough, do you write enough, do you get out and see the real world enough? This hasn't changed, and the way writers live has always been different from the way those around them live.

Add to this are you willing to experience things outside your comfort zone? And do you try to understand how other people may see the world in different ways from the way you do. Reading really is key. I just finished The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night. It made me "see" the world the way someone with high level autism might. This is a world I can never personally experience, yet now I feel I know a little more about it. If you always stay within your comfort zone and do want everyone else does, you lose the opportunity to see the world in different ways, and lose a lot of potentially useful insights as a writer.

[katiemac]

Great book, Tish. Loved it.

You can count me in on this category, too.

[sunandshadow]

how many who are video game-obsessed and internet obsessed

I would like to point out that reading novels probably is or was an obsession at some point in their lives for more than half the members of this board. And that if we hadn't been obsessed with them and read lots of them, we would never have come up with the idea of that first novel we wanted to write.

I would also like to point out that anyone who is obsessed with something tends to consume all available materials of that nature until there aren't any left that are different enough from what they've already encountered to be worth consuming. When there are no novels left that one wants to read, this frustrates people into writing what they want to read. When there are no video games left to play, this frustrates people into designing new video games. Personally I think the video game and the novel (and the animated movie, etc.) are equally valuable formats of entertaining art. (The novel is possibly the easiest format to work in, since you don't have to worry about collaborating with artists, programmers, producers, directors, actors, etc.) So perhaps you should consider that instead of writers wasting their time on video games, they are learning the craft of being a video game writer?

[ted_curtis]

The novel is possibly the easiest format to work in, since you don't have to worry about collaborating with artists, programmers, producers, directors, actors, etc. So perhaps you should consider that instead of writers wasting their time on video games, they are learning the craft of being a video game writer?

Or, to play Devil's advocate, the novel is the most difficult format, because you don't have anyone else to help you form or flesh out your ideas.

I don't think it matters either way...writing is just plain hard work.

Ted

[Mistook]

nevermind... I'm drunk.

[Live Life]

Well, i am 21 so i think i fall into that category outlined in the first post, however i consider myself far from being a real writer yet. First, to comment on myself and the video games. I am into computer games and am trying to kill the habit a little. They definitely offer a great distraction from writing. I actually am writing video game guides in an attempt to pay the bills to support my creative writing (working on my first big story now) so while they do distract, i am doing my best to turn it into a positive.

As for movies.... i LOVE them. I can't get enough, no matter what types. I rarely read and since the elementary school days when i wouldn't stop reading, i haven't totaled over 10 books in any one year. 99.99% of the fictional stories i take in are through movies or television. The other 00.01% is shared between video games and books. I know it is wrong but i am one of those stupid young kids who lacks the responsibility and dedication to pick up a book and work my way through it. I am aware of what i am though and i am trying to do my best at producing a quality story since i really believe that it could be good. I am growing to love books again and only halfway through the year i have read 7 so i am on my way to breaking the 10 limit that has ruled me for so long. I have found that to deal with my desire to think of my story as a movie, i actually write it like a movie. I am writing a screenplay of the story, then i go through and write it from memory in a novel style. Once i have the movie side out of my system for that section, i find it much easier to write the real story, the way it should be. I also do get out of my house. Creatively i feel stifled within my basement bedroom. I am fortunate enough to have parents that own a cottage on a lake about a one hour drive north of my home. I go up there to do the novel writing and take care of the screenplay part of the writing at home. I feel much better when writing the novel section up there and spending time on it seems much easier to do (no internet or games being a key).

As for those teen/twen writing boards, i never personally have been to one. I wanted to try writing and this was the first board i found. I love it here and am glad i ended up here before anywhere else. I want my writing to take on an adult feeling but still keep a quality that will attract the teen/twen crowd so that everyone over 16 or so can enjoy reading it. The type of story it is i think really works that way and i want the writing to take it that way. Since i have the kid thing down already i am glad i have the more mature forum to bounce ideas off of and learn how to really write from.

[god0sgirl]

I'm just curious as to how many writers we have here at the cooler who are in their teens and their twenties. I've been to other boards where young writers are in the majority, and the issues discussed are often very different than we see here.

I think AWWC is very strong when it comes to learning the tricks of the trade, and for enormously protracted discussions about the semicolon through history, but where's the new blood?

I'm new blood, and i'm a teen, 17 actually AWWC has helped me alot i've gotten two novels written and am desperatly trying to get them published and i'm working on about 42 more...an insane amount that i don't think any professional writer would even consider, but it's all fun

[Tish Davidson]

99.99% of the fictional stories i take in are through movies or television. The other 00.01% is shared between video games and books. I know it is wrong but i am one of those stupid young kids who lacks the responsibility and dedication to pick up a book and work my way through it.


Not wrong. Some people are visual learners, some people are auditory learners, some people process pictures, some process words. I am almost totally word based. If you want me to really "get" something and remember it, give it to me in writing. I am always amazed at people who can vividly recall scenes from movies. I simply can't do that, and find movies and tv far less compelling than books. [maybe because we did not have a tv until I was age 7?] You should play to your strength. If you're a visual picture person, then aim to work with visual storytelling. If you're a visual word person, find a way to work with words. I don't think there is a right or wrong to these different media. The trick is to find the one you are good at and figure out how to use it to tell your story. Maybe traditional novels aren't going to be your medium.

[Mistook]

I'm happy to see such a lively discussion between generations. More or less that's what I hoped to spark-off. It's always good to mix new blood with old.

Here's my current take, but I've been drinking tonight, so bear with me...

VIDEO GAMES:
I find it encouraging that they have evolved from the primitive puzzle of Pac Man into these things involving human characters with story lines and drama. I think today, games play a critical role in communicating the elements of genre, plot, etc to a very diverse audience.

Games, movies, TV shows, are providing a common frame of reference within which the writers of the latest generation will communicate their concepts, BUT... it's important to realize that all of these things are cheesy! Comic books, and pulp fiction were cheesy in previous generations, and some of that cheese we will always hold dear, but therein does not lie the whole of human experience.

REAL LIFE:
It is important to get out and live - to travel, take risks, etc. But to discount the interactions that can happen over internet, or by cell phone, as being a false representation of reality... well, one could get very philosophical about it.

An internet connection may be nothing but pixels and hypertext, and people may not be truly themselves online, but how is that different from the pen-pals and ubiquitous postal correspondences of the "olden days?" Wasn't calligraphy, or cursive, just another "facade" to disguise the writer's true personality. Is it any different from a font? Are electronic words any less meaningful?

As for face to face ineraction with other cultures, there is always an uneasy ettiquite, and a laundry list of presumptions and viewpoints that amounts to another facade as tangible as pixels if not more. If anything, the internet and the cell phones have the potential to break down these invisible barriers.


RESPONSIBILITY/RISK:
It's funny to see individual action suddenly praised as a virtue.
Most of the messages on this board tend to encourage the writer to blend into the whole as much as humanly possible. You can't expect to get published unless you conform to the expectations of the group, isn't that right?

[AndreaGS]

I'm 22, and new here. I do enjoy video games and movies, definitely, but I understand that there's a time and place for everything. Most days I get up, go to work, write on the bus, write on my breaks at work, write on the bus home, eat dinner, then work on my illustration until it is time for me to sleep. I take a break from this routine once in a while to spend time with my friends/family and so I don't burn out.

I've only ever frequented one Teen / Twen forum before, but it was pretty dead.

The distractions my generation has available to them may be flashier than those that earlier generations had, but I feel, no matter your generation, if you're going to allow yourself to be distracted, then you will be distracted, no matter the medium. You don't necessarily have to be older to understand:
1) As humans, we don't really live all that long
2) If you want something, you have to make certain sacrifices
3) Sometimes getting what you want takes a lot of hard work

I'm very glad I stumbled across this forum. For someone who is very serious about what they want, this is an invaluable resource.

[sunandshadow]

Games, movies, TV shows, are providing a common frame of reference within which the writers of the latest generation will communicate their concepts, BUT... it's important to realize that all of these things are cheesy! Comic books, and pulp fiction were cheesy in previous generations, and some of that cheese we will always hold dear, but therein does not lie the whole of human experience.

? Are you arguing that all games, movies, and TV shows are cheesy??? Sure a lot of them are, maybe more than half, but I've also seen some extremely high quality, literary games, movies, and TV shows. And its not like novels aren't cheesy, there are lots of cliche bodicerippers and 'extruded fantasy products' and hackwork horror stories being written and published every year. A large percentage of entertainments created in every medium and genre will always be cheesy because cheese does well in the mass market.

(And this is just me, but personally I often think real life is cheesy.)

[reph]

It's funny to see individual action suddenly praised as a virtue.
Most of the messages on this board tend to encourage the writer to blend into the whole as much as humanly possible. You can't expect to get published unless you conform to the expectations of the group, isn't that right?
I wouldn't put it that way. You can't expect to get published unless you write something people want to read – not the same thing as conforming to group expectations. Sure, you conform to expectations about numbering chapters consecutively and spelling your words right, unless you're Travis Tea, but creative work comes from individuals doing what only they can do.

[Mike Coombes]

Nothing changes. Virtually every teenager on earth is writing a novel, or is a poet. Just like always. But this generation obviously feel everything much more keenly, far more so that their boring parents (oh, hang on, I thought that was my generation!). This generation invented rock music and just about everything else.

The only differences between the generations are (a) anyone can go to publish America and pretend they been published these days, or write an e-'book' and expect to be read, (b) this generation is the first where their musical heroes are less offensive and more lightweight than their parents', and (c) mine was the last generation where you could have sex as often as you liked with as many people as you liked without the fear of Aids.

We had sex. You have your x-boxes. Enjoy, children.

[loquax]

In a few years we'll probably be having sex with our x-boxes.

Going back to the subject of 'creativity', I do NOT believe that one can only be creative enough to write a book through reading books alone.

I'm sure films have inspired authors. The Matrix, with its groundbreaking ideas and philosophies, has to have influenced someone out there. If people get inspired by looking at beautiful vistas or lying on their back and looking at the stars, then they can be inspired by watching films. They can come to one part and think "That was good, but it would have been better if..."

And they're away.

The same goes for video games. When I think video games, I don't think Pac Man or Pong. I think of the gothic visuals of castlevania and devil may cry - I think of the incredible storylines and intense character interactions of the final fantasy series - I think of the insane plot twists and radical political ideas of the metal gear solid series.

There is much that the adult generation does not realise about computer games. Inspiration comes from EVERYWHERE.

I know I'm not UJ, but here's some homework. Go out and rent the movie Akira. It is probably the most famous anime film of all time. I've seen it countless times, and I still can't understand it. It's too intense. But I always come away with the feeling of having learnt something very special. I believe that it's this general feeling that gives us the bases of our own stories. It mostly comes from books, but I wouldn't be too fast to dismiss everything else.

[alanna]

I would like to jump in here with the comment that not all of my generation are video game obsessed. I have only played 2 hours of video games in my entire life, and I hated them. Also, I watch, on average, less than an hour of tv a day. Most of the time I don't watch any. I spend my free time reading, writing, biking, cooking, etc. I have many friends my age who are the same way.

The people who I know who are my age, dedicated to writing, and who spend a large amount of their free time with video games and tv, are not worse writers because of this.

Just my two cents.

[scribbler1382]

I think there's two basic points you can take from this thread:

1) Don't be so obsessed by anything to the exclusion of everything else

2) Be it videogames, chatrooms or talking to dust bunnies, not doing something actually reduces your experience in life.

The moral being, do it all. Live, taste, touch...but through it all, have your writer's eye always open and aware of what's going on.

[jackie106]

I see nothing wrong with enjoying TV, movies and video games as long as they don't dominate your life. Cutting yourself off from pop culture won't necessarily help you as a writer. After all, most teen and twenty-something writers are writing for people their own age who love TV, movies and video games.

Young writers should go out and get new experiences, but so should writers of all ages. It isn't as if you turn thirty and suddenly have to surrender your passport and go under house arrest. We all need to go out into the world and meet people. It doesn't matter if you don't get to the end of the block as long as you have interesting neighbors. (One of the guys who lives down the hall from me looks a lot like the actor who plays John Locke on Lost.)

Literary prodigies are rare, but not impossible. Anne Frank was in her early teens. Nineteenth-century French poet Arthur Rimbaud began writing at about novel when he was in the seventh grade and became a published author at 13. When I was 11, I thought he was the world's greatest comedic genius.

Why not start writing young? Most people who get published in their thirties and forties began writing in their teens and twenties. Heck, I tried to write my first novel at age 8. It wasn't publishable, but it was awfully cute. (A creepy old mansion, helpful ghosts, secret passageways and a homicidal babysitter.)

Jackie, age 28

[Tish Davidson]

RESPONSIBILITY/RISK:
It's funny to see individual action suddenly praised as a virtue.
Most of the messages on this board tend to encourage the writer to blend into the whole as much as humanly possible. You can't expect to get published unless you conform to the expectations of the group, isn't that right?

Not at all. Don't confuse packaging your manuscript traditionally and using conventional spelling and punctuation with conventional writing. The former are a convenience for the agent/publisher/reader who wants to read something that has a new and intriguing slant but who does not want to wade through James Jocyean prose or reams of phonetic dialog. Don't confuse the package with the product. Conversely, a beautifully prepared manuscript will go no where if it doesn't tell a good story.

[Mistook]

Not at all. Don't confuse packaging your manuscript traditionally and using conventional spelling and punctuation with conventional writing. The former are a convenience for the agent/publisher/reader who wants to read something that has a new and intriguing slant but who does not want to wade through James Jocyean prose or reams of phonetic dialog. Don't confuse the package with the product. Conversely, a beautifully prepared manuscript will go no where if it doesn't tell a good story.


No phonetic dialogue? :( Just kidding.

I wasn't alluding to formats and style. I was more referring to genre.

[Mistook]

I wouldn't put it that way. You can't expect to get published unless you write something people want to read – not the same thing as conforming to group expectations. Sure, you conform to expectations about numbering chapters consecutively and spelling your words right, unless you're Travis Tea, but creative work comes from individuals doing what only they can do.

Again, I'm talking more about genre, which carries a set of expectations to which the writer is asked to conform.

[Mistook]

? Are you arguing that all games, movies, and TV shows are cheesy??? Sure a lot of them are, maybe more than half, but I've also seen some extremely high quality, literary games, movies, and TV shows. And its not like novels aren't cheesy, there are lots of cliche bodicerippers and 'extruded fantasy products' and hackwork horror stories being written and published every year. A large percentage of entertainments created in every medium and genre will always be cheesy because cheese does well in the mass market.

(And this is just me, but personally I often think real life is cheesy.)


Well... there are levels of cheese. Superman was cheesy because he was too perfect. Spiderman seemed less cheesy because he his social life was a wreck, and the tabloids were out to crucify him. But then that kind of angst itself becomes cheese when you have heroes who live in dark, nighmarish soap opera's dripping with drama and violence and everybody's on a "never ending mission to save my girlfriend."

I mean, cheese is good. Who doesn't like a cheeseburger over the regular kind? But it's important to see it for what it is - know all the different kinds of cheeses (provalone, swiss, colby-jack, etc) and work from there.

[reph]

Again, I'm talking more about genre, which carries a set of expectations to which the writer is asked to conform.
I don't understand. Are you chafing under the bonds of "A novel can be a Western or a romance, but don't you dare write a hybrid of them"? Or (speaking of bonds) do you want to put kinky sex in a YA novel? Or...well, what, specifically?

[Mistook]

I don't understand. Are you chafing under the bonds of "A novel can be a Western or a romance, but don't you dare write a hybrid of them"? Or (speaking of bonds) do you want to put kinky sex in a YA novel? Or...well, what, specifically?


I guess I'm asking, why can't a story just be a story? If there is both romance and mystery, and it happens to take place in the old west, is that a "hybrid" or is it simply undistilled? And what if there's a haunted house involved, or a character who happens to be psychic?

[hpoppink]

29 here, 30 coming around the bend ... I've visited 10 countries and lived abroad in East Asia for three years. I also enjoy role playing games. (Although admittedly, I prefer the more social pencil-and-paper style.)

I agree with James that you can't learn to write good literature without reading it. Just as you can't learn to write an impressive game without studying other well-written games.

More importantly: excellence in both literature and game writing requires that the author have been out in the world, experiencing and observing.

[scribbler1382]

I guess I'm asking, why can't a story just be a story? If there is both romance and mystery, and it happens to take place in the old west, is that a "hybrid" or is it simply undistilled? And what if there's a haunted house involved, or a character who happens to be psychic?

Because eventually the sales rep has to tell the bookstore owner where to put it.

You know the sales rep, he's the guy who thinks Art is a guy who used to have a tv show with kids on it and Mystery is figuring out what his wife meant when she said "fine" this morning. It's all labels and marketing. But before that point, when your story is just a cool set of neurons firing when you look at your balogna sandwich a certain way on your lunch break at the shoe factory, a story is just a story. Stay in the moment and let the sales reps sort them out.

[Mistook]

Because eventually the sales rep has to tell the bookstore owner where to put it.

You know the sales rep, he's the guy who thinks Art is a guy who used to have a tv show with kids on it and Mystery is figuring out what his wife meant when she said "fine" this morning. It's all labels and marketing. But before that point, when your story is just a cool set of neurons firing when you look at your balogna sandwich a certain way on your lunch break at the shoe factory, a story is just a story. Stay in the moment and let the sales reps sort them out.

I guess I'm dreaming of a world where every bookstore had a section labled, "Fiction: Other." Maybe that's my beef. What ever happened to the good old fashioned concept of, miscellany? What happend to the virtue of eclecticism, gosh darn it? Isn't anybody up for a grab bag once in a while?

[reph]

I guess I'm asking, why can't a story just be a story? If there is both romance and mystery, and it happens to take place in the old west, is that a "hybrid" or is it simply undistilled? And what if there's a haunted house involved, or a character who happens to be psychic?
It's okay to combine elements. Just don't start out looking like a traditional Western and switch genres on your reader halfway through.

Here's your opening paragraph: "The old fellows at the saloon in Dogbone used to say a man with a gal on his mind could get himself in a peck of trouble if he went anywhere near that big house just north of town on a dark night. The one time I asked Madame Sonia, the palm reader from back East, why that might be, she turned pale and went quiet. I figured I had to find out the story for myself."

[sunandshadow]

Most readers know what they want to read and what they don't want to read. Me, I don't want to read tragedy, horror, crime, or religion, and I do want to read science fiction, fantasy, romance, and erotica. I love the fact that bookstores and libraries have their shelves divided into categories and subcategories because it makes it less frustrating for me to find a new book I want to read. Who wants to waste their time searching through a haystack of genres they don't like looking for that one book which looks interesting enough to actually take home with you?

[Mistook]

It's okay to combine elements. Just don't start out looking like a traditional Western and switch genres on your reader halfway through.

Here's your opening paragraph: "The old fellows at the saloon in Dogbone used to say a man with a gal on his mind could get himself in a peck of trouble if he went anywhere near that big house just north of town on a dark night. The one time I asked Madame Sonia, the palm reader from back East, why that might be, she turned pale and went quiet. I figured I had to find out the story for myself."

Thank you Reph! That's truly enlightening. I know you dashed that off as a quick example, but I suddenly want to know what the deal is with the haunted house, and actually look forward to meeting Madame Sonia.

It's almost like a 'thesis' approach. Put the cards on the table and start working into the implications. That helps me! I only wish we hadn't gotten so off topic.

[Mistook]

Most readers know what they want to read and what they don't want to read. Me, I don't want to read tragedy, horror, crime, or religion, and I do want to read science fiction, fantasy, romance, and erotica. I love the fact that bookstores and libraries have their shelves divided into categories and subcategories because it makes it less frustrating for me to find a new book I want to read. Who wants to waste their time searching through a haystack of genres they don't like looking for that one book which looks interesting enough to actually take home with you?


But what about the broccoli argument? How do you know you don't like broccoli if you've never tried it?

Or the coffee argument? Sure it's a dark, bitter liquid, much like mud, and it may burn your tongue but you'll get a "TASTE" for it!

I understand the reason for having genre's, but sometimes I think they've gotten a bit too rigid, and that there's no room left for newer genres to be defined. It's that old question (chicken and egg again, I'm sorry if this had come up recently) but do the genre's reflect the popular tastes, or are tastes formed by what's available?

[sunandshadow]

But what about the broccoli argument? How do you know you don't like broccoli if you've never tried it?

Or the coffee argument? Sure it's a dark, bitter liquid, much like mud, and it may burn your tongue but you'll get a "TASTE" for it!

I understand the reason for having genre's, but sometimes I think they've gotten a bit too rigid, and that there's no room left for newer genres to be defined. It's that old question (chicken and egg again, I'm sorry if this had come up recently) but do the genre's reflect the popular tastes, or are tastes formed by what's available?

I doubt you could find a genre of writing I've never tried, and if you did find one I'd probably try it. I avoid tragedy because I know from experience that I don't like it, and I know exactly why I don't like it - unhappy endings make me (duh) unhappy.

To respond to your chicken and egg comment, genres do change - there was a thread last week or so in the romance forum mentioning how romance today is a completely different genre from romance in the 18th century. Cyberpunk and Steampunk are relatively new genres. Slipstream is also a relatively new genre term. I write sociological sff, which has been around since Utopia, Gulliver's Travels, and Looking Backwards, but didn't have a name until this decade.

Any fan community is a breeding ground for new terms and classification systems, and some of these find their way into popular usage, commonly when a member of the fan community is also a publisher, critic, or author and uses the term in an authoritative way. So, genre terms represent the popular audience attempting to sort out what's available by key elements which can be used to predict whether or not it will fit their tastes.

[Samuel Dark]

We drank it. I've been to boards where the majority had new blood running trhough their veins. Can't say I liked it much. They always seemed more interested in video games and movies than in writing.

I am in my teens (17)..and hey! Video games/movies need writers, and not all of us talk about that! I know I don't.:mad:

[scribbler1382]

But what about the broccoli argument? How do you know you don't like broccoli if you've never tried it?

I think I might be a little upset if I went to the market and everything was in the same white box with the word FOOD on the label.

[fedorable1]

I'm 24, myself. I've been writing fiction since I was 15 - mostly in the form of short stories, fan fiction, etc. Recently I've moved into writing screenplays and novels, having written four of the former and working on my debut of the latter.

[MadScientistMatt]

Another guy in his 20's chiming in: I'm 27. No real publishing credits yet, but I hope to finish my first manuscript's rough draft in the next couple weeks.

[icerose]

I'm twenty-two. I have been writing since I learned the alphabet, reading just as long too. I have always loved books and read them over movies and video games. In my house we did not have many video games so that wasn't a problem. Also we didn't watch much tv, I mean how interesting are three channels? Also we didn't get internet in my house until I was 16. If anything my family said I read too much, I don't agree :D We were always outside doing things, gardening, exploring, we camped, and fished, and hiked all the time. I have always been a daydreamer and I could make entire worlds in my daydreams and characters and conflict ect. It seemed logical for me to become a writer as my brain seemed hardwired into that anyway. I started writing my first novel when I was 12. I failed in the sense I did not finish it. I wrote to page 50, which looking back is still quite a bit, but I became frustrated over unreliable floppy disks and such. (Now I make three back ups and not one of them involves a floppy disk!)

So anyway to answer your question, those new generation writers who are interested in writing take up reading and creative thinking and such just like every other generation. I do see many writers who are going from just watching tv and video games, and instant communication (yes even old adults) and they do struggle. They don't know how to translate what they see and hear to writing because they haven't read enough.

Just my opinion.


I guess I'm asking, why can't a story just be a story? If there is both romance and mystery, and it happens to take place in the old west, is that a "hybrid" or is it simply undistilled? And what if there's a haunted house involved, or a character who happens to be psychic?

Hi Mistook,

I don't think I have a single story that is just a clear cut genre. I have a very hard time classifying them because of it. I have one book Town Curfew that I thought might work as a sci-fi, but it has elements of romance, horror, and fantasy. It isn't enough of a romance to be a romance, but it isn't hardcore horror either, and it isn't clear cut fantasy. So I am not sure who to submit to or what publisher would accept that kind of book. I personally think I am incapable of writing a book that is contained in one solid genre. I also write from just about every genre out there, because I read books from every genre out there. So I figured why not? (except erotica...that isn't my thing).

Sara

[Zecragon]

I'm fourteen myself, and I've tried a wide range of genres, stretching out and around, but in the end, Fantasy is my home. And since I'm here I felt I should ask, does anyone else ever... think like a book? Or am I just nuts.

Sometimes, when I'm alone, and I imagine things I'd say to someone, I find myself adding in "he said," in my mind, and sometimes describing what I would be doing, and why. And sometimes when going back into my mind for memories, I've been known to get so lost in them, and in my mind, 'think' them out. For instance... I zoned out after sitting up in bed this morning and I had been anticipating a visit I'll be making to a friend in a few days' time. WQhile zoned out, my mind wandered into what I think of as "Writer Mode" and this resulted:

He stepped out of the dirty car, and stopped a moment to run his hand through his long red hair. A mess, of course, it always was. The house, familiar only from pictures and video clips loomed up in front of him. He walked ahead of his parents, his mother messing around with something in the car. 'They always take so long!!!' He thought as he approached the door and knocked twice. The door opened to reveal a small grey cat that dissapeared into another room and a tall figure, a smiling one with dark hair. "Hey." The redhead said with a grin. "It's about time."

At this point, I realized I needed to get up!!! UP! UP! UP! and slapped myself round the face and stumbled to my bathroom, so... yeah.

[icerose]

I'm fourteen myself, and I've tried a wide range of genres, stretching out and around, but in the end, Fantasy is my home. And since I'm here I felt I should ask, does anyone else ever... think like a book? Or am I just nuts.

Guilty as charged. Can't tell you how many times a day I become lost in my thoughts and thinking of situations and conversations and what I (or my character) would say and do and what others would say and do.

Sara

[Zecragon]

Guilty as charged. Can't tell you how many times a day I become lost in my thoughts and thinking of situations and conversations and what I (or my character) would say and do and what others would say and do.

Sara

Maybe you'll all think me foolish, but I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one doing that! I was afraid I was becoming too obsessed with writing and my own thoughts! Wheeee! Maybe I'm a bit closer to normal after all! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gif

[Tish Davidson]

So anyway to answer your question, those new generation writers who are interested in writing take up reading and creative thinking and such just like every other generation. I do see many writers who are going from just watching tv and video games, and instant communication (yes even old adults) and they do struggle. They don't know how to translate what they see and hear to writing because they haven't read enough.
Sara

Good, sharp analysis, Sara People can obtain inspiration and ideas from video game, movies, real life -- almost anywhere, but they cannot translate them into quality novels or short stories without having read a lot because these forms have their own structure and it is different from screenplays, video games, etc. Presumably video game writiers will become another subset of writers, just like screenwriters, romance writers, true crime writers, etc.

[sunandshadow]

Lol, yeah, sometimes I narrate my life: "She walked onto the bridge, grateful for the sidewalk where she could stay away of the highway (highways always made her nervous). Would she see her apartment complex appear over the horizon? Her stubborn faith that any idiot ought to be able to walk six blocks away from home and back without getting lost was weakening under the niggling fact that nothing looked familiar.

"She reached the middle of the bridge and glanced to the side, hoping for a familiar landmark. And saw... McDonalds. Ohh, she knew where that McDonalds was, and it was not Home. It was not even on the way Home from the library she had foolishly decided to hike to today. That darn McDonalds was three blocks from Home in a totally wrong direction.

"But, she thought, look on the bright side - if I know where the McDonalds is, and I am at the McDonalds, technically I'm not lost! ;) She sunk her claws into that thought and hung on, because otherwise she would have had to become quite upset at the realization of exactly how much farther her tired feed would have to walk before her apparently-more clueless-than-any-idiot self would be safely ensconsed in her apartment once more."

[hpoppink]

Regarding telling stories and "thinking like a book":

I have a preschool-aged son. In order to prevent him from having a tantrum, we often make up stories about how a day will unfold, what will happen if he continues a given behavior, what other thing he might try... complete with narrative description and dialogue markers. It appears to have helped him immensely.

Or maybe it's one of those cases where your kids turn out all right, despite -- or even in spite of -- what you do. (But I can still have my fantasies of parental genius, can't I?)

[icerose]

Good, sharp analysis, Sara People can obtain inspiration and ideas from video game, movies, real life -- almost anywhere, but they cannot translate them into quality novels or short stories without having read a lot because these forms have their own structure and it is different from screenplays, video games, etc. Presumably video game writiers will become another subset of writers, just like screenwriters, romance writers, true crime writers, etc.

Thanks Tish,
I don't see how they could not become their own subset. Another problem with just watching movies and playing video games is it doesn't spark the imagination in the person. You don't have to paint the pictures from words, they are done for you. So those who feel they can gain just as much from watching video games and watching tv and movies, I have to strongly disagree. Reading a book involves more brain processes than sitting and watching other's creations because you don't have to think and there is nothing required of you but to just sit there. I like video games and movies and such just as much as the next person, but they cannot replace the value of reading a good book.

Sara

[CaptMorgan]

I am twenty years old, so I definitely fit into this category. I don't play many video games. Some do have brilliant stories--for example, I loved Final Fantasy 7--but, for the most part, I feel like I'm wasting my time when I turn on a GameCube. Movies, however, I enjoy much more, but books still are my favorite. When I was younger, I read so often my parents would often beg me to "Get out here, watch some television, and spend some time with your family!" Which, as you know, is eternally difficult when you're in the middle of a good book. I miss having that much time to read. If you could say I'm obsessed with anything other than writing, it would be volleyball (it pays for college) and music (particularly live music--I've been known to travel up to seven hours for a good concert). As I do these things, I really feel I collect new experiences--in fact, my motto is basically that there are no wasted experiences, no matter how foul one might seem. I can't believe how many little things that have happened to me have worked their way into my newest novel--it's amazing. As one of my friends read my book, she turned to me and said, "Mandy--this is you." That was a good feeling.

I love writing. I've been doing it for as long as I can remember. I finished my first full-length novel at fifteen and have written three since then. And I've always known I want to make writing my life. To me, writing makes life exciting. I write what I love and what I want to know, so I have a wonderful time with it. I've traveled to Nashville for my writing, interviewed a celebrity...and actually recorded it in my fiction. Thank God that he created something so perfect for me!

[Tish Davidson]

Different things happen in the brain on a neurological level when you process images and when you process words, so it is not surprising that they have different effects on creativity.

[pepperlandgirl]

I'm 22. I'm a big reader, always have been. I didn't have cable growing up, and I didn't have the Internet, and I didn't have video games, and we lived on the edges of civilization, so i really didn't have playmates either. I had my sister, PBS, and about a billion romance novels I stole from my grandma in the summer, and school and library books in the winter.

Now, I've made up for that in spades. I have cable. I have the Internet and two computers. I have a PS2 and a GameCube and might I get an Xbox one day. My husband adores video games, and I find that sometimes, Final Fantasy X or X-2 is just what I need to relax.

Right now, I'm writing for epublishers. My prof warns me there's no money in it. *shrug* So? I'm 22. I'm practicing right now. I'll worry about the big leagues when I have several years of writing and living under my belt. I know I still have a long way to go, and I figure I can get paid in the process. I'm having a good time.

[Mistook]

I think I might be a little upset if I went to the market and everything was in the same white box with the word FOOD on the label.

Well, I'm not saying get rid of genre's just add one more for "other".

[tjwriter]

I am 23, and what I would call outside the normal bounds of people my age. At least, most of the people in my area. I don't spend massive amounts of time with my cell phone. My phone is more of an archeological find than the type most of my peers use. I am married, though I found my mate at the tender age of 14, which is also uncommon. I enjoy a few video games, though not many and most not for long. I do enjoy TV and movies but they don't rule my life. I love reading and writing, which I have always enjoyed. My husband teases me about my nose's constant presence in a book.

But, overall, I have always found myself on the outside of my peer group. Does it bother me? Not really. I have grown accustomed to doing my own thing and being happy with who I am.

Everyone is different. I cannot speak for others, though I could share general observations.

The Water Cooler has been an inspiration and many lessons. The people here are wise and helpful. It makes you go, "Oh, wow!"
The things I have learned here are invaluable to my eventual goal of becoming a published writer. For this, I thank all of you.

On a side note, Mistook, I completely understand your need for an eclectic section in a bookstore. There are some that know exactly what they like and only like those certain things. Others enjoy a mix of all things. I like a bit of everything, and as long as the story's good, you could mix it all up and dump on the page for what I care about genre. I will try just about anything once. Just imagine enjoying learning about all subjects and trying to pick a major for college (total nightmare and now that I am done, I think I messed up). Same sort of principle.