Are energy guns practical?

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Thomas_Anderson

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I was just wondering do energy guns have a realistic advantage over ballistic weaponry? Would it be worth going through the major hurdles that one would have to go over to make an energy weapon work (such as the fact that the sheer amount of energy would effectively turn your gun into a potential grenade)?
 

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I don't think energy guns are a practical threat yet, but sometime in the future they might be. They'd take one hell of a power pack, and if they were able to miniaturize said pack, just think what they could power with a big one?

As for a sci-fi story, I don't think you'd be out of place with an energy weapon. They'd especially work better in space, if you were to have a battle in a vacuum.

If you are trying to come up with an accurate technological description, can't help you though. Then again, it's your world and you make the physical and technological rules. Just be sure those rules are "somewhat" realistic (after all, this is sci-fi) and don't break them once you set them up.
 

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I would say No for many of the reasons you already know. Standard chemical firearms are good, reliable, accurate, and deadly weapons even against relatively armored or large foes. They're also more or less dirt cheap. Advances in chemical propellants will continue to make them a weapon of choice for centuries to come.

Energy weapons have problems like weather, that massively-charged battery that essentially does turn the weapon into a grenade on your hip, back, or along your arm or in your hand, radiation potential (for more exotic or plasma weapons), etc., etc. They're costly to develop, unreliable, and potentially as dangerous to the user as ther are to the target.

It also seems to me that there's little or no realistic advantage of energy weapons over chemical firearms in terms of range or accuracy. Most energy beam weapons are very short-ranged and the energy potential of the beam drops off so rapidly it quickly becomes virtually useless. While an energy beam or laser weapon will nail a target in milliseconds, at the ranges that most military engagements take place the difference in a few milliseconds or a half second is negligible IMNSHO. An M16 bullet is travelling at something like 900m/s coming out of the barrel. A bullet travels 100-400m downrange in most engagements in something considerably less than a second. Given human reaction time the difference between light speed and 900m/s just doesn;t seem to mean a whole lot.
 

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If you want to be realistic, energy weapons are a mixed bag.

The Advantages:
1. Nearly instantaneous effect.
2. Line of Sight weapons, just point and shoot.
3. Potentially limitless ammunition depending on how they're powered
4. Adjustable(e.g. could potentially be set to "stun" and kill)
5. Potentially very accurate

The Disadvantages
1. Can't penetrate cover easily, especially if it's a ceramic of some kind as those are very heat resistant(think concrete).
2. Heat is a real problem, and being able to dissipate it is a major issue especially in space.
3. Line of sight weapon(can't exactly lob a laser over a wall). Artillery can easily accomplish this.
4. Lack the versatility of a gun(specific ammunition types tailored to destroying specific targets)
5. The damage is pinpoint(e.g. can't have a huge exploding shell destroy a large area), so the economy of force isn't as good.
 

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I think to an extent you can make your weapon have the drawbacks or advantages you envision for it. You just have to make it believable within the context of the story and not hit people's hot-buttons about what's ludicrous and impossible.

I always find it very interesting in a story when the advantages or disadvantages of a certain weapon are described.
 

efkelley

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I was just wondering do energy guns have a realistic advantage over ballistic weaponry? Would it be worth going through the major hurdles that one would have to go over to make an energy weapon work (such as the fact that the sheer amount of energy would effectively turn your gun into a potential grenade)?

Is the question meant for mankind today or for some science fiction setting?

For today, you've got a host of reasons already listed why energy weapons are impractical in their current form. They have significant advantages (also as listed), but cost is going to be your biggest limiting factor.

In a futuristic setting, I could see them being more prevalent not simply because of reduced cost, but because of the environments you might be using them in. Consider that a conventional firearm has recoil. Recoil can be potentially complicated in a weightless environment.
 

Lhun

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I was just wondering do energy guns have a realistic advantage over ballistic weaponry? Would it be worth going through the major hurdles that one would have to go over to make an energy weapon work (such as the fact that the sheer amount of energy would effectively turn your gun into a potential grenade)?
Direct energy weapons and projectile weapons are different enough that the question might as well be wether tracks have any advantage over wheels. ;)

Independently of the advantages and disadvantages, the first question is of course one of the available energy storage technology. The energy density for chemical projectile weapons is near a pretty insurmountable peak already, as there's a theoretical limit on the effectiveness of explosive material. You can use more propellant for a bullet to make it faster, but that just makes it heavier, not have a higher energy density. If you have a capacitor on the other hand that can get you an energy density that is higher than that of chemical explosives, the energy weapon wins by default. You could accelerate a bullet magnetically, but the efficiency of that would be lower than that of a direct energy emitter, so you'd only use it where a kinetic projectile is required. The total energy efficiency of a direct energy weapon is much much higher than that of any kinetic weapon.

That being said, there are numerous advantages of enery weapons that make them interesting.
The fact that all practical ones have a projectile speed of c (there is not and there will never be a plasma gun) is extremely important. It doesn't matter for a sidearm, but when you're shooting at a supersonic plane it matters quite a lot. Sure, a computer can easily calculate the position of the plane and the required lead angle to hit it, but that doesn't matter if it changes vector before the bullet (or missile) hits. The same problem occurs for energy weapons too, though only at interplanetary distances.
The second really noticable characteristic for the aiming issue is the fact that many frequencies of direct energy weapons allow you to have simply superior aiming optics. It'd be a tricky bit of engineering, but there is no principal problem that forbids using the focusing optics of the beam for aiming. And that means whatever shows up in the crosshair gets hit period. No misalignment of targeting system and projecting system possible. The most obvious use where these features make energy weapons singificantly better than kinetic weapons is for point defense against incoming projectiles. Given good sensors and sufficiently fast computers you might be able to put an anti-missile system on a vehicle as small as a car (since taking out an incoming small missile doesn't require a lot of energy in the beam).
Range is another factor where energy weapons simply outshine kinetic weapons. As long as you pick a frequency that doesn't get absorbed by whatever you fire through (possible in air, damn near impossible in water) you will get effective ranges that are orders of magnitude above those of kinetic projectiles.

The next group of differences has to do with the fact that the energy delivered to the target arrives in a different form. Basically, armor against a direct energy weapon, while possible to create, has to be very different from armor against a kinetic weapon. And there is not a good way to get both. An electromagnetic direct energy weapon with sufficiently high energy density (all the interesting ones) does not heat or melt the target. Whatever gets hit will be instantly ionized, how much of it depends on the total energy the weapon delivers. The result is a pretty hefty explosion. An energy weapon that can drill a 2mm hole straight through a tank might sound like it doesn't do a lot of damage, but the explosion resulting from the vaporized metal will most likely disable it. There's not a lot of explosives you need to take out a tank if the explosion happens inside one.
Other possible types, such as an electron beam will not transfer the energy rapidly to the surface of the target, but will penetrate matter to quite a depth, heating up all the material on the way.

Disadvantages of direct energy weapons basically all come from the necessary machinery to create the beam in the first place. The fact that a chemical gun needs to be no more than a pipe and ammunition makes them much easier to build and maintain, whereas an energy weapon needs a lot of machinery to work, from the beam generator to the cooling system.
 

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One other advantage for energy weapons: in zero G, at least some of them will have no recoil - and won't send you spinning.
 

Euan H.

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if you're looking for an alternative to chemical-driven projectiles in your story, you could always use railguns or coilguns. They've got a lot of the advantages of energy weapons (speed, energy delivered, etc.), but they can be built with today's technology.

I know some railguns have been built and fired, although they wear out quickly. Wikipedia says that the U.S. Navy is working on a 64 MJ gun for ships. British Aerospace have delivered a 32 MJ prototype.

64MJ is A LOT.

Wikipedia also has this:
On January 31, 2008 the US Navy tested a railgun; it fired a shell at 2520 m/s with an energy of 10.64 MJ.[15] Its expected performance is over 5.8 km/s muzzle velocity, accurate enough to hit a 5 meter target over 250 nautical miles (370 km) away while shooting at 10 shots per minute. It is expected to be ready in 2020 to 2025.[1]
Mmm. Railgun goodness.
 

Lhun

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if you're looking for an alternative to chemical-driven projectiles in your story, you could always use railguns or coilguns. They've got a lot of the advantages of energy weapons (speed, energy delivered, etc.), but they can be built with today's technology.
Speed and energy efficiency of an electromagnetic accelerator are better than those of a chemical accelerator, but not even in the same ballpark as direct energy weapon. Mach 10 is impressive when compared to normal bullets, but still no comparison to c.

As for buildable today, there's already this thing in testing:
http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-07/laser-weapon-airplane.jpg
 

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Speed and energy efficiency of an electromagnetic accelerator are better than those of a chemical accelerator, but not even in the same ballpark as direct energy weapon. Mach 10 is impressive when compared to normal bullets, but still no comparison to c.
Yes, I know.

But I wasnae talking about efficiency, I was talking about energy delivered at point of impact. Mass driver weapons don't have the limits of chemical explosives: scale up either mass or speed and you scale up energy. There is no upper limit (planetary bodies at near-c being as close to the ultimate weapon as I can think of). This is true also for energy weapons--but requires more ingenuity than sticking a honking big engine* on the back of an asteroid.

(*Which kind of makes it a reverse mass-driver, I guess . . . )

As for speed, obviously, c is the ultimate in velocity. But I think for most situations, the difference between c and just really goddamn fast is not going to matter all that much.

On a back-of-envelope calculation, from the deck of a ship, you'd have a projectile taking under four seconds to reach the horizon--which is (again--obviously) the limit for surface to surface energy weapons. Sure, it may have trouble hitting planes at that range--but most anything else is going to be a rapidly-expanding cloud of klablooied rubbish.

And for sidearms, close defence, etc., well, yeah, light speed is quicker, but if the projectile takes 0.1 seconds to travel 500 meters, then you can use the same kind of targeting system you describe for energy weapons and it'll make no practical difference. Just how far is the missile coming at you going to move in 0.1 seconds? (Not linear distance, obviously; you'd have to think about a change in vector to throw the targeting computer off.)

Unless, of course, you're talking about using energy weapons to destroy bullets and the like--which you're going to need some super-fast computers and targeting equipment for. The limiting factor there is not the speed of the counter projectile but the speed of the whatsits moving the mirror or energy projector around.
 
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BigWords

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You don't have to view all "energy" weapons as consisting of purely energy. If we're deep in SF territory then the possibility that there exists a manner in which to project an object of near-zero mass could be thought about. The tiny item (example would be a ball no more than a few millimeters in diameter made of unobtanium) could be shot from something that looked like a conventional weapon.
On impact, the shell breaks and a massive electrical charge, or whatever, is released and incapacitates the target. It would be a non-lethal solution much like a tazer. The physics behind such a weapon would make no sense, but this is an old SF idea.
 

Lhun

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But I wasnae talking about efficiency, I was talking about energy delivered at point of impact.
Well, given a limite energy supply, that's pretty much the same.
Mass driver weapons don't have the limits of chemical explosives: scale up either mass or speed and you scale up energy.
Oh, there's no question that magnetic accelerators are the best replacement for chemical kinetic weapons. I tend to think that gauss guns will ultimately be better than railguns, since those have real lifetime problems, which is because of the way they work, and not easily extendable.
There is no upper limit (planetary bodies at near-c being as close to the ultimate weapon as I can think of). This is true also for energy weapons--but requires more ingenuity than sticking a honking big engine* on the back of an asteroid.
At those speeds, it actually is. An engine that can get something up to relativistic velocities isn't easy to build at all. Just making it bigger won't do the trick. Once you projectile goes as fast (relative to the target) as your engines exhaust stream, you actually lose energy when turn the engine on.
On a back-of-envelope calculation, from the deck of a ship, you'd have a projectile taking under four seconds to reach the horizon--which is (again--obviously) the limit for surface to surface energy weapons. Sure, it may have trouble hitting planes at that range--but most anything else is going to be a rapidly-expanding cloud of klablooied rubbish.
But 4 seconds can be a long time. It is for example more time than you would need to detect the projectile and calculate the trajectory. Such a ballistic projectile can not dodge, so given a sufficiently powerful laser, or missiles with really volatile fuel, it can be intercepted. A direct energy weapon is uninterceptable.
Theoretically you could use steering fins and controlling electronics to make even an unaccelerated projectile able to dodge (somewhat) but i really don't see that happening if you launch it in a railgun. Imagine what an electromagnetic field that accelerates the projectile to 2.5km/s and melts the barrel after a few shots will do to a chip in the projectile.
And for sidearms, close defence, etc., well, yeah, light speed is quicker, but if the projectile takes 0.1 seconds to travel 500 meters, then you can use the same kind of targeting system you describe for energy weapons and it'll make no practical difference. Just how far is the missile coming at you going to move in 0.1 seconds? (Not linear distance, obviously; you'd have to think about a change in vector to throw the targeting computer off.)
500 meters in 0.1 seconds is around Mach 5, that's not something a projectile will get without some serious acceleration time, a very, very big gun. Any missile big enough to intercept with such a gun should better be stopped much further away than 500 meters. Much of the reason to use a laser to intercept missiles is that you can take them out from a distance of possibly hundreds of kilometers.
Unless, of course, you're talking about using energy weapons to destroy bullets and the like--which you're going to need some super-fast computers and targeting equipment for. The limiting factor there is not the speed of the counter projectile but the speed of the whatsits moving the mirror or energy projector around.
Bullets are a bit hard to do, mostly because they're very small, and need to be completely vaporized to be stopped. Which requires a very powerful laser, compared to the actual energy of the bullet.
But artillery shells for example, are a definite possibility. Heck, you can build a laser that automatically shoots down mosquitos from parts you can get from every electronics retailer, imagine what you could do with a budget somwhere in the billion dollar range.
 

Lhun

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The physics behind such a weapon would make no sense, but this is an old SF idea.
Well, "realistic" is the tenth word in the op.
 

Wark

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I've written cathodic weapons. They are similar to the electron gun in your CRT.

Two types. 'Cat axe' which fires a flat and spreading concentrated sheet of electrons, slicing through objects as thick as torsos. And cathodic fixed depth cannons, AKA FDs. They shoot a slow moving, maybe 100 yards per second, cloud of electrons which burns 2 inches into any surface it hits. These require heavy batteries to charge, though once removed can shoot twice.

The cat axe somehow has seven shots without having a battery.

The guns can be disabled easily as their coils provide a five to eight inch disk to shoot at. Primitive cat cannons had two foot diameter coils, and were wildly inaccurate.

That's my ray gun.
 

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There are certainly reasons for some fiction to use energy weapons--and those reasons have been hashed out above. However, I haven't seen one thing commented on, so I will say it.

For energy weapons to be practical, the power supplies have to be big, bulky, or you have to have a tremendous advance in how we store energy. If you choose the last (so you can have sleek powerful energy weapons), please have the advances reflected throughout your society. Don't, for example, have small commonplace energy weapons that can kill a hundred men, but everybody rides an engineless old car pulled by a horse. (If one kind of battery is commonplace, why isn't is used in vehicles and other places?)

That's all for me.
 

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For a while after their creation at least, energy weapons would probably be restricted to long-range sniping. That way, you wouldn't have to lead the target, it would presumably be quieter, and therefore harder to find the source of the shot, and the problems with power consumption would be mitigated.
 

Lhun

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<snip>If one kind of battery is commonplace, why isn't is used in vehicles and other places?
Batteries aren't batteries. We can build small, sleek chemical powered handguns, but cars are still big and bulky. And that, even though gasoline has a much higher energy density than gunpowder.
Guns don't really need all that much energy compared to vehicles, and that you can create a battery that suits the needs of a gun (small size, decent energy density, extremely high power flow) doesn't mean you can create one that suits the needs of a vehicle (medium size, very high energy density, moderate energy flow) or other devices.
 

BigWords

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Adding to what Lhun pointed out, energy guns would have intermediate uses of the battery, while vehicles would need a constant power supply. If you take a look at the hydrogen powered cars being tested in Japan then you will see that the energy usage is high. A weapon would be (hopefully) used infrequently, so the strain on battery life could be minimized.

When not in use they could be placed on a surface to recharge, while still being handy enough to grab in an emergency.
 

Thomas_Anderson

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The fact that all practical ones have a projectile speed of c (there is not and there will never be a plasma gun) is extremely important.

What's wrong with a plasma gun? If blooming is the concern, one could use electromagnetic "bottles" to carry the bolts to the target. Or maybe the firing mechanism could sling the plasma at a high rate, so as to get there before blooming.
 

efkelley

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What's wrong with a plasma gun? If blooming is the concern, one could use electromagnetic "bottles" to carry the bolts to the target. Or maybe the firing mechanism could sling the plasma at a high rate, so as to get there before blooming.

Don't forget that we already have plasma weapons of a sort. We call them flamethrowers. :)

Anyway, if it's a bolt of plasma designed to hit targets at range, I'd think it would mix in with the atmosphere and cool pretty fast. You'd want a magnetic bottle on it, but, again, I'm not sure how this would reliably hold together in an atmosphere with all those atoms and their protons and electrons either being repelled by or attracted to the bottle. In a vacuum, you've got no problems of that sort.

Additionally, your type of plasma would need to be something relatively non-reactive. Helium probably. I'm not sure that injecting super-heated hydrogen into an oxygen atmosphere would have quite the effect you want. (Or maybe exactly the effect you want! It would make an awesome grenade).

All of this is entirely dependent on how much science you want to incorporate. For my part, when I read scifi and see 'plasma gun' I take it for what it is without a hitch. When they start talking about how the plasma gun works, my eyebrow starts raising slowly. If the eyebrow hits critical mass, the book is usually banished back to the library.

I am a self-described nit-picker, though. Everything I say comes with a complimentary grain of salt!
 

STKlingaman

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Great thing about SF, anything
is possible. Weaving the improbable,
impossible and unlikely into something
believable, is just a matter of ink, and idea.

And what kind of energy are we talking about?
how is it dispersed, what is its range?
is it a narrow focused beam?
A wide disrupting field?
What effect does it have on common items, and
materials (steel, stone, water, wood etc..)


If you had to explain everything in a
SF book, you would probably, need
a second book. If you can sell it as
believable, the reader will accept it.
 

Lhun

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What's wrong with a plasma gun? If blooming is the concern, one could use electromagnetic "bottles" to carry the bolts to the target. Or maybe the firing mechanism could sling the plasma at a high rate, so as to get there before blooming.
Plasma has very low density and very high internal pressure. Keeping it together is far, far worse than keeping the stream from a flamethrower together. In an athmosphere it is far worse, since the material you shoot the plasma through is generally more dense than the plasma itself. Try using a gun that shoots bullets made of steam underwater.
A magnetic bottle is a nice idea, but having a magnetic bottle without a device to generate it is pure bolognium. (and i again point out that the op asked about realism, not about phasors and death rays)
If you're shooting a projectile however, it's pretty dumb idea to use it only to generate a magnetic field that holds the plasma together. The kinetic impact from your magnetic generator will release a lot more energy than the impact from the plasma.

There really is no point in trying to shoot plasma in the first place. Sure, it's very hot, but it's not a practical way of delivering energy. You wouldn't try to ignite TNT and then shoot the resulting cloud of hot gas at the target either.
 

Art_Sempai

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Yep

Works for Doctor Who.
Just make up some good sounding techno-babble.

Sometimes you don't even need to explain it.
"A Jedi's weapon is a light saber".

Lasers that shoot out, then bend and weave around friends to hit enemy ships.
"That's a very convenient weapon."

Don't need to how it works, it's just awesome.

Great thing about SF, anything
is possible. Weaving the improbable,
impossible and unlikely into something
believable, is just a matter of ink, and idea.

And what kind of energy are we talking about?
how is it dispersed, what is its range?
is it a narrow focused beam?
A wide disrupting field?
What effect does it have on common items, and
materials (steel, stone, water, wood etc..)


If you had to explain everything in a
SF book, you would probably, need
a second book. If you can sell it as
believable, the reader will accept it.
 
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