Is it borrowing, a tribute, or stealing?

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Shadow_Ferret

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When you're writing a scene, do you borrow from other media? Say, lines from a movie, or television show, things that people would immediately recognize where it came from?

Kinda of like "where's the beef?" or "Show me the money?"

And is that stealing? Or is that stuff fair game.

The reason I'm asking is I'm reading a novel that has the following in it:

"Eh? More than one kind of what?" Bob tilted his skull over to one side, as though cocking an invisible hand to his ear bones.

"Werewolf, werewolf."

"There wolf," Bob replied solemnly, his voice seething with a hokey accent. "There castle."*

So that is obviously from "Young Frankenstein." But is that legal? Did the author need to get permission to use it? Or is borrowing like that somehow fair game?

Now I know song lyrics are something else. You DO need permission from the music company or ASCAP. But what about the rest of it?

What are the rules?


*"Fool Moon" by Jim Butcher
 

DeleyanLee

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Considering that joke was old when Mel Brooks stole it, I'm not sure there's any problem with using that kind of thing.

Though, FWIW, if you hadn't've refered the movie, I wouldn't've placed the reference and I've seen it many times. Just wish I had the DVD instead of the VHS. *sigh*
 

ChristineR

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Ideas may be stolen at will. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, it just means it's all legal. Implementation of ideas--the particular words used--may not be stolen with impunity.

For plagiarism, the rules can get pretty complicated, and there isn't always going to be perfect agreement, but there's no question that quoting a six word joke falls under "tribute" or "referencing" or "fair use." It's very "insubstantial."
 

JoNightshade

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Legally I think it's okay.

But it's tacky. Really tacky. I hate it when I see stuff like that in books.
 

Parametric

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For me, if the reader is supposed to get the reference, it's a shout-out. If the author is passing it off as their own invention, it's plagiarism. Which is which, is where the problem lies.
 

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A conversation between two of my time-traveling teens in 1526:

"I need to use the garderobe again,” I said. "I didn't know what to do with that stupid pad. I couldn't figure out the belt thing, so I stuck the pad in my underwear. And now it's like shifting around."
"No sticky stuff on the bottom, huh? No wings?"
I snorted.
"This isn't a happy period?” Joy said, mocking the old sanitary napkin commercials.


I figure my agent or publisher (should I ever get them!) will let me know if I have to remove the mocking.

I also incorporate scenes from Hamlet (quotes paraphrased and updated), but I'm certain Will Shakespeare won't have a problem. I'd love to use quotes from Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead as chapter titles, and I've contacted Sir Tom Stoppard's publisher for permission. They say it's my publisher's job (should I ever get one). I have Sir Tom's blessing (via his agent) to use his name and reference his play.
 

Rebekah7

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Bob tilted his skull over to one side, as though cocking an invisible hand to his ear bones.

That line stood out to me more than the old joke. I kept thinking of some poor sap without any skin.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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If using a line like that was a problem, then there are hundreds (if not thousands) of books with similar pop culture references that are in deep trouble.
I guess that's my question. When are you crossing the line?

That line stood out to me more than the old joke. I kept thinking of some poor sap without any skin.
Well, the Bob character is actually a bodiless spirit that resides within a skull on the wizard's bookshelf.
 

ChaosTitan

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I guess that's my question. When are you crossing the line?

I'm honestly not sure, but that's why publishers have legal departments. Editors are also pretty smart, too.

For example, I can probably get away with having a character say to another, "Love means never having to say your sorry." Sure, some folks might recognize it as a quote from Love Story, but for most people it will just sound like something they've heard before. My character could also be purposely quoting from the film/book. Now if I was to steal the entire scene in which the Love Story line was uttered, or in some other way recreate it, then I think I've crossed I line.
 

BigWords

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I like call-backs to previous novels, films, television shows, etc., though I know some people hate reading reference-heavy material. If you are intending to use a liberal dose of references, then you might consider writing up a list of all the references you have used. If nothing else, you can stick it on the 'net when the book is published, and everyone can see if they were able to catch all the geeky stuff.

I would never have guessed Rupert Bear was in LXG if he hadn't been pointed out.
 

seun

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I also incorporate scenes from Hamlet (quotes paraphrased and updated), but I'm certain Will Shakespeare won't have a problem.

Is that because he's dead? :D

I've done similar in a couple of books but only to show a relationship between characters or someone's personality. These are usually brief lines because I think overdoing it just comes across as smug.
 

Kurtz

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I also incorporate scenes from Hamlet (quotes paraphrased and updated), but I'm certain Will Shakespeare won't have a problem. I'd love to use quotes from Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead as chapter titles, and I've contacted Sir Tom Stoppard's publisher for permission. They say it's my publisher's job (should I ever get one). I have Sir Tom's blessing (via his agent) to use his name and reference his play.
lol if Shakespeare ever did get pissed off from people stealing his work he'd be the biggest hypocrite in history. The dude lifted stuff from everywhere.

I wrote a short story with a character who did nothing but say the words 'what?' and 'YEAH!' in honour of a particularly lovely poet. I also created this poorly written and nonsensical monstrosity:
Me said:
The shape at his feet moves once again, a bestial scrabbling. The scrabbling of a puppy being thrown in a river. He fires the rifle at it, and it is still. The gunshot echoes over the gulf of air.

The thing at his feet is dead. All it's heads turned to mush and it's once proud frame water logged. Any elegance it had is gone. Broken.
He picks up a stick lying on the floor and presses it. Nothing happens. He shakes it, and then taps it against the creature's corpse. It thuds open and extends a dome of canvas above him.

-When the sun shines we'll shine together, I told you I'd be here forever, said I'd always be a friend, I took an oath, I'm going to stick it out till it ends. Now that it's raining more than ever, know that we still have each other.

He raises a hand towards me and roars into the night

-YOU CAN STAND UNDER MY UMBRELLA!

The last syllable echoes more than the gunshot.

I don't even remember writing half of this that guy seriously only ever talks in Rhianna lyrics. '9 invincible sages' appear and I'm certain I meant them to be the Wu-Tang Clan (with the Wu-Tang Secret they can make birds fly into their hands as well as killing white people with a look. Then sit on a rock all enlightened, filled with love for all existence and weed).

I consider them homages rather than stealing. I mean come on, look at that stuff its just ridiculous.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I used a Bill Bixby Hulk reference in my story in a conversation with a werewolf.

She thought a moment as she sipped her coffee. "I'm not really sure which is our true form. I know that changing to true wolf form is easier. The hybrid form occurs during moments of stress, anger, or fear. I call it our 'hulking out' phase." She smiled. "Don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
 

Tish Davidson

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There is always the risk that the reader won't get the popular culture reference and you will just come off looking stupid. I know we had this discussion in another guise when someone wanted to use song lyrics (a no-no without permission) because they conveyed to the author a very specific mood. Come to find out that others didn't attribute to those lyrics the same mood at all. Between cable TV and the new, popular culture is becoming quite fragmented, so you are always taking the risk that the reader won't get the allusion. (I for one, didn't get the sanitary pad reference above.)
 

Namatu

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That brief of a reference, I would think, falls under fair use. You're not quoting long passages, you're not mimicking someone else's plot progression. Our lives are full of reference points, and, judiciously and effectively used (not alienating readers who won't get it), I don't necessarily see the harm in it.
 

BigWords

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Somebody has been watching Spaced, methinks.

If anyone is wondering where the line between the fairly obvious and the geeky in-joke lies, watch the complete series of Spaced back-to-back and see how often you are left scratchng your head. The DVD helpfully comes equipped with a note of all the references in one of the subtitles...
 

DeleyanLee

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Oh, so the author got away with the joke because it was older than the hills before Marty Feldman uttered them?

In order to borrow or steal something, it must have a specific owner. If it's older than the hills and repeated everywhere by anyone, then there's no specific owner. Thus, no moral or legal quantries.

It could be a tribute, regardless, in which case people will either get the reference (like you did) or not (like I didn't). If it's done well within the story, then it won't matter if it's not and extra bonus if it is. Again, no moral or legal quantries.

Now, if Butcher was taking specific character traits or catch-phrase, verbatim, from a recognizable source that is legally owned by a specific owner, that could be copyright infringement. Unless, of course, he successfully used it in a parody or a satire, which is legal and moral too.

And people wonder why writers are nutsoid. LOL!
 

maestrowork

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I used the "fava beans and a nice Chianti" in The Pacific Between, but I did attribute it to Hannibal Lecter.

I think there's a thin line between reference and plagiarism. Like someone said, if you're trying to pass it off as your own, then it's not good. If you're clearly making a reference (or your character is), then it's okay, but you need to make sure your readers know it's a reference (or hint at the reference).
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I used the "fava beans and a nice Chianti" in The Pacific Between, but I did attribute it to Hannibal Lecter.

I think there's a thin line between reference and plagiarism. Like someone said, if you're trying to pass it off as your own, then it's not good. If you're clearly making a reference (or your character is), then it's okay, but you need to make sure your readers know it's a reference (or hint at the reference).

See, now I had that line in my WIP also and someone who read it thought I was treading on something I shouldn't and I changed it. I liked that line, too.

I'll see if I can find my original reference....

Oh, here:
"What happened to him? Did you report it?"
"No, I didn't report it. They laughed at date rape in those days. I hunted him down and killed him, then I ate his liver washing it down with a nice Chianti."
I tried to read her to see if she was kidding. "Seriously?"
"No!" She said with a laugh. "I hate Chianti. I actually had a nice Bordeaux."
 

Kurtz

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I think there's a thin line between reference and plagiarism. Like someone said, if you're trying to pass it off as your own, then it's not good. If you're clearly making a reference (or your character is), then it's okay, but you need to make sure your readers know it's a reference (or hint at the reference).

Eco references other authors extensivley, as a Semiotician it's what he has spent his entire life doing. Often the references are very obscure, so much so that 'naive' readers (his words, not mine) won't get them. He cites the opening lines of The Name of the Rose as an example:

In the beginning there was the word and the word was with God and the word was God

Now, that's a fairly obvious reference to the Gospel of John. However, apparently lots of Japanese readers didn't understand the reference, and just assumed it was the main character's pious thoughts befitting a monk nearing the end of his life.

Another good example is in Foucalt's Pendulum when the main character is standing underneath the Eiffel Tower, and imagines he's under the feet of some horrible metal monster. Much of his thoughts are in fact a collage of various writings by architectural critics at the time of the towers construction (where nearly all the feedback was very negative). 'Naive' readers will see Casaubon's reaction of fear and hullcination manifested by the tower, those clued up with turn of the century Parisian architecture will have a strange feeling of deja vu.

But of course references are even more complicated than this. One can be influenced in 3 ways. In this case, imagine that the original source of the reference is A and the author is B.

1. A and B are contemporaries, and both influence each other to limiting degrees. An example pulled straight out of the air would be The Wu Tang Clan and NWA. Both influenced each other, no matter how viruently both sides deny it.
2. A is in the past, so B's relation with it is only one way. For example, Tolkein was very much influenced by Beowulf, but Beowulf can't be said to be influenced by Tolkein.
3. This is the real one. We have to add another value, X. X represents culture. Lets take the example of Souljah Boy and NWA. Normally Hip Hop wouldn't be the ideal example here, but Souljah Boy prides himself in only having listened to 50 Cent so the example works.

NWA have added a large amount to "culture". Phrases such as "Fuck the police", "You are now about to witness the strength of street knowledge" and, of course "Straight outta Compton crazy nigger called Ice Cube". Souljah Boy uses these tropes now, but with no realisation that he is in fact referencing NWA. There's also the link between Dr Dre --> 50 Cent --> Souljah Boy.

Example: In looking back over one of my stories I see huge amounts of If This is a Man and The Purgatorio, despite having never read either at the time. Ideas like Purgatory, or tatooed arms enter into the mainstream.
 

maestrowork

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See, now I had that line in my WIP also and someone who read it thought I was treading on something I shouldn't and I changed it. I liked that line, too.

I'll see if I can find my original reference....

Oh, here:

The trick (thus the thin line) is how obvious the reference is. The liver and Chianti line is famous and thus there's almost no ambiguity that it's a reference by your character. However, if someone doesn't know the line and thinks it's your original, is it your fault?

I think it comes down to intent. If the intent is to create a pop culture or literary reference, then I think it should fall under "fair use." After all, writers borrow a lot from one another, from other materials, from data, from research, just about everything. It's essential that the writers put everything in their own words, but the references are often traceable. The Da Vinci Code, for example, can be traced back to Holy Blood Holy Grail, which could also be traced back to other sources.
 
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