Em dash in Word: Courier vs. Times New Roman

[mkcbunny]

Hi folks,

I'm formatting my manuscript in both Courier New and Times New Roman, and I noticed that the em dash doesn't really look like an em dash in Courier. (I presume that's because it's shortened to fit the consistent spacing for that font?)

Anyway, this led me to wonder if I'm not using the proper formatting for em dashes. I've been using the key-command in Word (shift-command-dash). In Times NR, it looks just as it should. But in Courier New, it doesn't look right. Is that the norm, or should I be using two dashes instead ( e.g. -- instead of —).

Here is an em dash in Times New Roman — looks fine.

Here is an em dash in Courier New — looks like an en dash.

Here are two dashes in Courier --

Here are two dashes in Times New Roman --


Help, oh sages of grammar and all things involving punctuation.

[Tiz_Mee]

I do my emdashes (I'm running vista, BTW) by just typing 2 hyphens immediately after the word and no space before the next

I tired it in Times New Roman and Courier New and it turned out basically the same.

I'm sure it's set up to automatically change the 2 hyphens to emdash somewhere, but I am no computer wizard to tell you where to go to make sure that option is turned on

[alleycat]

Use two hyphens in a manuscript (and turn off any autocorrect options to change it to a single dash).

[melaniehoo]

Hmm, I hadn't considered this. My gut says two dashes would suffice, but that's not based on any actual research. I'll be watching to see what others think.

[Medievalist]

Use two hyphens in your ms. for submission unless your publisher or editor tells you otherwise.

Here's why:

1. the em-dash is a "high ascii" character--and it is not encoded the same way in all applications and all operating systems.

2. The publication will have "house" style sheet -- which will choose either open em-dashes (with a leading and a trailing space) or "closed" em-dashes (right up against the text on either side).

3. It's the typesetter's job to set the type, not yours.

[mkcbunny]

Thanks. I had a feeling the answer would be "two hyphens," but I'd just typed the whole thing using my usual key-command habits. Thank goodness for find-and-replace. And for the fact that it's easy to spot where I might have missed it.

Thanks again!

[mkcbunny]

I'd like to add that I just LOVE this forum. You pitch a question out, and an answer comes back. It's a minor miracle.

Once in a while, I have the answer for someone else, but most of the time, I've got questions that elude keyword searches. So thanks again.

[mware01]

Word likes to convert your em dashes for you. Here's now to turn if off in Word 2002.

From the main program bar select Tools, then AutoCorrect Options. This should bring up the AutoCorrect options window.

Click on the 'AutoFormat As You Type' tab.

Uncheck, 'Hyphens with dash', then click OK.

There's some other junk you might want to turn off as well, like "Smart quotes"; as well as some stuff I have no idea what it does (like, "Insert closing phrase to match Japanese salutation").

Not sure what percentage of US Word users ever use Japanese salutations?!?

[boron]

To get an m dash, hold left Alt and type 0151 on the right side of your keyboard.

m dash: —

en, em dash (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/dashes.asp) (Grammarbook.com)

[Medievalist]

To get an m dash, hold left Alt and type 0151 on the right side of your keyboard.

m dash: —

en, em dash (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/dashes.asp) (Grammarbook.com)

That's if you're using Windows and MSWord.

[maestrowork]

What Lisa said. Remember, not everyone uses Windows or Word. Plus many agents/editors request text version (or some kind of conversion so they can read it on their eBook readers). The "em-dash" character may not come through correctly. Don't make yourself (or anyone else) do more work than you have to.

[mkcbunny]

Ray, is there a thread anywhere here about properly formatting text versions of one's MS for e-readers? I haven't had to do that yet, but I suspect it's coming very soon.

[maestrowork]

Ray, is there a thread anywhere here about properly formatting text versions of one's MS for e-readers? I haven't had to do that yet, but I suspect it's coming very soon.

I don't remember if there's a thread about text formatting. But this is what I did for an online mag; they had specific requirements:

- text only (no fancy quotes, em-dashes, ellipses, or any special characters such as ™ or ©)

- single-spaced, with an extra blank line between paragraphs

- no indents, or centering, etc. Left-justified only

- Italics are to be marked with enclosing underscores, such as _this line is italicized_

- scene changes/blank lines are marked by a single #

- section breaks are marked by ###

[sydney]

Oh good to know! I've been using a keyboard shortcut to put in em dashes.

In case anyone wanted to know, to change the auto for Microsoft Word 2007 (I've done it for my Vista and XP):

Click on the circle at the top left (what it's called I've no idea).
Click Word Options at the bottom left.
Click Proofing on the left.
Click AutoCorrect Options...
Go to the tab AutoCorrect As You Type and uncheck Hyphens with dash (under the category Replace as You Type. It's on second the left.)
Go to the tab AutoCorrect and uncheck Hyphens with dash (under the category Replace. It's the fourth listed.)
Click Ok.
Click Ok.

If you have a document full of em dashes, you can use the Find and Replace option. Just press CTRL+F, click on the tab Find and Replace, and... well it's self-explanatory :)

[benbradley]

Use two hyphens in your ms. for submission unless your publisher or editor tells you otherwise.

Here's why:

1. the em-dash is a "high ascii" character--and it is not encoded the same way in all applications and all operating systems.

2. The publication will have "house" style sheet -- which will choose either open em-dashes (with a leading and a trailing space) or "closed" em-dashes (right up against the text on either side).

3. It's the typesetter's job to set the type, not yours.

What Lisa said. Remember, not everyone uses Windows or Word. Plus many agents/editors request text version (or some kind of conversion so they can read it on their eBook readers). The "em-dash" character may not come through correctly. Don't make yourself (or anyone else) do more work than you have to.

It's frustrating reading about this - (or should that be --) I'm an old-fashioned nerd and know the difference between the original ASCII character set (that has something like under 100 printable characters, pretty much corresponding to the characters on a keyboard) that was universally used decades ago, and the extensions that might not transfer correctly to a handheld e-reader, cellphone or other non-Intel, non-MS-Windows text display device (yes, lots of "ordinary" people DO use non-Microsoft computers, even if they don't realize it).

But it seems unreasonable to have an average person have to learn about these "deep, hidden" computer details in order to make a written document that's readable on an e-reader.

As far as converting, I might use this method to get a readable "text file" though I don't know if it will be any easier than other methods:

From MS Word (or what ever other Weird Processor you're using) load your MS and go to file->Save As... then under "Save as type" choose .txt. To further distinguish from your original MS file, maybe give it a new name like "mymsintxt" (for further backwards-compatibility, keep the name no more than 8 characters, and DON'T use a space in the name).

Run Notepad (Start->Run... then enter notepad.exe then OK) and open the file you just created (you do know what directory it ended up in, don't you...). Format THAT so it's right (Notepad is a straight ASCII editor and won't let you enter characters or formatting (it'll let you change font and size but those won't get saved - you might as well select Courier). Make it readable in Notepad and it'll be readable in an e-reader.

No doubt a "smart" converter program could be written that goes through a .doc file (or HTML or whatever), strips out all the font changes, changes an Em dash to --, maybe has options to convert bold to ALL CAPS and convert italics to text preceded and followed by underscores _like this,_ and writes that out as 7-bit ASCII in high-bit-zero-filled 8-bit chunks with a .txt extension.

If you don't understand all that, don't worry (too much)...

[mkcbunny]

I think I am going to cry. Honestly, every time I think the MS is finished, there's something else enormous to do to prepare it. Going through it all again to change underline style is a mind-bender on its own.

But thanks!

[mkcbunny]

P.S. I've been working on this book for so long, I don't think there even WERE e-readers when I started it ...

[Bartholomew]

I think I am going to cry. Honestly, every time I think the MS is finished, there's something else enormous to do to prepare it. Going through it all again to change underline style is a mind-bender on its own.

But thanks!

Augh! No! Waaaiit!

If you're in anything resembling a modern word processor, you can use Find and Replace to change formatting. X_X