Starting a novel with dialogue?

[Dana-Lynn]

I did a search to see if this topic was covered before, but couldn't find anything. . . .


I was wondering what everyone's opinions, training, advice, and/or general feelings are toward starting a novel with dialogue?
Is it okay to do sometimes? Or do agent's pretty much totally frown on it?


The first sentence of my second YA novel starts with dialogue, which I normally don't do. BUT that one sentence does a ton of foretelling about the novel, and so far I haven't been able to come up with that (hooking) sentence or paragraph that's any better than the dialogue I have there now.


ETA: Here is the opening of my novel if it helps:

“Your dad's going to murder you with a capital M when he finds out you're gone. You know that, right?” my best friend Maxine says as I climb through her bedroom window.

I laugh and try to keep myself steady on the ledge so I don't fall to her floor and crack my head open. “If he finds out, Max. And he'll have to catch me first.”

She scowls. “I'm serious, Kacey Nicole. I’ve seen your dad’s temper. I don't think you fully realize the gravity of the situation you've just put us both in.”

You can tell her dad’s a lawyer when she talks like that.

She opens her door and peeks into the hall, to the left then the right, and eases the door closed. “My dad is still mad at you, you know. If my folks find out you're here they'll strangle me. And then ground me for all of eternity. I just got ungrounded two days ago, Kace, why do you do this to me?”

I'm just about to give her a witty answer when the phone rings. We both freeze. Maxine’s eyes grow so huge I'm afraid she's going to bust a capillary. “If that’s him,” she growls under her breath, “I swear I’m going to kill you after he gets done murdering you!”

With a capital K.



Anyway, I've been wondering if this is something I need to worry about? Does starting a novel with dialogue just scream amateur and I should definitely try harder to find something else to put there first? Or is it okay to start off with dialogue if it fits the story????


Just wondering what everyone else's ideas, feelings or experiences are with this subject?

:D

[ccv707]

I did a search to see if this topic was covered before, but didn't come up with anything. . . .

It has been. Long story short, nothing inherently wrong with it. Anyone who tells you that you can't tell your story the way you want to tell it has their head so far up their backside the circulation to their brain is cut off.

It is possible to do so. It's also possible to do so poorly. But that's up to the writer, isn't it?

Your story comes from your imagination, where no absolutes exist. Since there are no absolutes (or very few, perhaps) in writing a story, do so the way you want to.

[Lifelongdagger]

Hi Dana-Lynn.

To be honest, I've seen it done more in short stories than in novels. As ccv707 said, there is nothing inherently wrong, but I think it's difficult to do well. Firstly, the reader has no idea who is talking, why they are saying what they are saying or the context within which they speak.

I read the passage you are referring to in SYW. Seeing as it is in first person, and is about a girl sneaking out the house, I would think you could probably show a lot there without resorting to one girl telling the other what she is going to do.

You know, perhaps, start the novel in the middle of her sneaking out. First person would be ideal for this. What is she feeling? Is she having second thoughts? Fears? What was that noise, etc?



Just my opinion.

All the best with it,

Ian

[Exir]

The biggest problem with starting the novel with dialogue is that there is a risk of the line of dialogue becoming a "floating line" -- the reader won't know who is doing the talking, what gender, what type of voice to imagine in their mind. They might associate the line with a random attribute, which may then have to be revised as they read on and the context of the dialogue is revealed. This could be frustrating.

That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong. You can certainly avoid that risk.

Example:
"So, the other day I was, like, shopping or something..."
The reader imagines a Californian valley girl.

"I was shopping yesterday."
The reader has no idea what character to imagine saying that in their head.

Incredibly lame example, but you catch my drift.

[Caramia]

My first story started with dialogue and it worked well for that one. I can't say it wouldn't be just as good or better in a different way but in this case, I was pleased with the result. The premise was the MCs 13th birthday and her homeroom class exclaimed, "Happy Birthday Mason!" as she entered. The story ends on her 17th birthday and I had that in mind from the beginning.

I don't think I've ever had an opinion one way or the other on the practice of dialogue from in the first line, but I've certainly seen it done well and not so well :)

[ccv707]

If you start your book with dialogue, it should be a gripping enough statement that draws the reader into what's being said, despite the fact that we probably don't know who is speaking, or if a dialogue tag states as much, we have no vested interest in.

I'll use an example from a previous post I made about "gripping the reader within twenty words"...you could start a story with:

"I hate you." God said.

Of course, the perfect beginning depends on the particular story, after all.

[Izz]

“Your dad's going to murder you with a capital M when he finds out you're gone. You know that, right?” my best friend Maxine says as I climb through her bedroom window.I would swap this sentence around a bit...

As I climb through her bedroom window, Maxine says, "Your dad's going to murder you with a capital M when he finds out you're gone. You know that, right?"

That way you immediately have setting to place the dialogue with. I cut 'best friend' because the reader should pick that relationship up pretty quickly without being told.

[Lifelongdagger]

I like that. :)

[ccv707]

I would swap this sentence around a bit...

As I climb through her bedroom window, Maxine says, "Your dad's going to murder you with a capital M when he finds out you're gone. You know that, right?"

That way you immediately have setting to place the dialogue with. I cut 'best friend' because the reader should pick that relationship up pretty quickly without being told.

Right on, on all points.

[Izz]

I would swap this sentence around a bit...

As I climb through her bedroom window, Maxine says, "Your dad's going to murder you with a capital M when he finds out you're gone. You know that, right?"

That way you immediately have setting to place the dialogue with. I cut 'best friend' because the reader should pick that relationship up pretty quickly without being told.I also have an irrational dislike of 'as'-clauses :D, so (and i apologize for tampering with work that hasn't been posted directly for critique) i would be tempted to reword the reworked beginning thusly:

The moment I poke my head through her bedroom window, Maxine says, "Your dad's going to murder you with a capital M when he finds out you're gone. You know that, right?"

[Dana-Lynn]

I also have an irrational dislike of 'as'-clauses :D, so (and i apologize for tampering with work that hasn't been posted directly for critique)


Tamper away . . . I don't mind a bit. I'm open to anything that helps. :)

;)

[Izz]

Tamper away . . . I don't mind a bit. I'm open to anything that helps. :)

;)Heh--well hopefully it helps :) And i'm done tampering for now.

[john barnes on toast]

Of course there's no rule about opening with dialogue, but so many people (including agents) are opposed to it, that I'd avoid doing it.

There are so many negative connotations associated to it (some with merit; including it's propensity toward the expositional) that I don't see it as risk worth taking, especially as in most cases it can be easily avoided with some minor tinkering, as above.

[maestrowork]

Surely you can start with dialogue if you want.

To me, though, the dialogue puts the readers right there, right now, with the characters, but they don't know your characters yet. So you have to ask, why should they care?

To me, the best opening dialogue is something that reveals character, instead of giving the readers a hook of the plot. In that sense, I think your opening scene works. It's in media res and reveals the characters to me.

But anyway, as long as give us a reason to read on, dialogue is just another way to open a book.

[Bufty]

I wasn't sure if it was girl/boy or two girls. Two girls I guessed in the original, with the 'best friend, but then I wondered why the 'killing' aspect.

In the suggested revision it could be a girl/boy situation. I'm maybe out of date but I don't know if Kacey is a male or female name.

Just sayin'.

[James D. Macdonald]

I did a search to see if this topic was covered before, but couldn't find anything. . . .

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20638

[Libbie]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't see a dang thing wrong with it. I can name best-sellers that start with dialogue and they don't seem to suffer for it. I don't know where this "rule" came from.

[Dana-Lynn]

I wasn't sure if it was girl/boy or two girls. Two girls I guessed in the original, with the 'best friend, but then I wondered why the 'killing' aspect.

In the suggested revision it could be a girl/boy situation. I'm maybe out of date but I don't know if Kacey is a male or female name.

Just sayin'.


Bufty, good observation. ;) I actually state in the next paragraph that Kacey is wearing a skirt, to make clear what gender she is:

I struggle to keep my balance with one leg still hanging out her window, my short skirt splayed open in a very un-lady-like fashion. My mom would freak if she saw it. Why didn’t I wear shorts today? Good thing Maxine’s brothers aren’t around.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif



Thanks for the link, Uncle Jim. I'll go check it out....
:D

[sleepsheep]

I think dialogue is great, and it's as good a way to start a novel as any other. I'd work to make the dialogue really sharp and gripping.

[maestrowork]

I have no trouble figuring out the narrator is a girl before the name Kacey is mentioned. The dialogue works, and the fact the best friend is called Maxine, etc... my immediate reaction was "this is a girl, and if not, the narrator will correct me." And my first thought was correct.

[Lifelongdagger]

I struggle to keep my balance with one leg still hanging out her window, my short skirt splayed open in a very un-lady-like fashion. My mom would freak if she saw it. Why didn’t I wear shorts today? Good thing Maxine’s brothers aren’t around.

Now that is a great opening line . . .

[Phaeal]

Yeah, the sentence above would be a good opening. Or the revision of your first sentence that prefaces the dialogue with a brief clause indicating the setting and action.

I don't mind dialogue as an opening, as long as I don't feel lost.

[Arkie]

I read a lot and see dialogue openings occasionally. If it is done well, I don't notice it.

I read an agent interview in a literary magazine. She said she doesn't pay any attention to the first few pages of a MS, but thumbs back until she finds dialogue. The dialogue tells her if she wants to take on the story or not.

[Charlie Horse]

I tried it and almost unanimously got comments from readers saying they were initially confused by it.

[Dana-Lynn]

THANK YOU for the replies, everyone! This helps tremendously.

:D



I don't mind dialogue as an opening, as long as I don't feel lost.

Phaeal, so from excerpt that I put in the first post, does the way I have it set up there make you feel lost? Or is it okay in this case?



I tried it and almost unanimously got comments from readers saying they were initially confused by it.

Thanks for the input, Charlie Horse, I get what you mean. In my case, I've only had one reader out of several say anything about how I started the story with dialogue when I posted it in SYW. It was more my own fears that prompted me to post this question, because I've heard the "rule" that you're "not supposed" to start with dialogue, also . . . lol!

Charlie, based on that excerpt of my opening in my first post, were you initially confused by any of it in this case? Just wondering. . . .


http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Kenzie]

A bit off-topic, but I just wanted to point out something that always jars me when I read dialogue - the use of names. The girls say each other's names in three out of the four first lines of dialogue, and to me this always comes off as a bit unnatural. In real life people use each other's names when they are talking to each other very infrequently, if at all. I think you should keep the instance where Maxine says her friend's full name (it works as she is scolding her, and it also is a handy way of introducing the MC) and drop the others. Just a small suggestion!

Back on topic - personally starting with dialogue doesn't bother me as a reader, especially if it fits the genre, and this seems to. It jumps straight into characterisation quite nicely.

[Prit]

It seems to me that more YA/MG novels start with dialogue than adult novels. But maybe that is just my imagination. It doesn't really strike me as out of place in your example.

[Charlie Horse]

No, Dana, it's pretty clear what's going on, which goes to show that it's all in the delivery. In my case, the setting, characters, conflict, etc. weren't revealed immediately. Here's how it went like this.

“Dance with me Benjamin.” She put her lips right next to his ear and whispered, “pleeeze.”
She could have just asked him to touch his nose with his tongue. He’d never been able to do that either. But staring into Jennie’s vacant brown eyes, still the most knee-weakening experience he had ever encountered despite the soul sucking rape of her spirit these past months, made it difficult to say no.

Nowhere in this passage are you told that this is the future, that Jennie is a celebrity, that Benjamin's job is to control her erratic behavior, and that the country is being controlled by an all-powerful corporation. This opening has changed drastically.

[blacbird]

Some very famous and wonderful novels open with dialogue, an immediately-remembered example being A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess.

But in that case, it is a single short, arresting line: "What's it going to be then, eh?" Followed by first-person narration identifying the speaker and his companions and the setting. It works wonderfully. But I don't think you can make a very long conversation serve that purpose of opening very well. The entire purpose of any opening involves establishing situation and character(s) and grabbing a reader's attention. Long stretches of dialogue at the get-go, in the absence of such major information, are as bad as prologue info-dumps.

caw

[Dana-Lynn]

No, Dana, it's pretty clear what's going on, which goes to show that it's all in the delivery. In my case, the setting, characters, conflict, etc. weren't revealed immediately. Here's how it went like this.

Nowhere in this passage are you told that this is the future, that Jennie is a celebrity, that Benjamin's job is to control her erratic behavior, and that the country is being controlled by an all-powerful corporation. This opening has changed drastically.


Okay, cool.
THANK YOU, Charlie!
:D

That's neat, I remember reading that post of your first chapter for this in the YA SYW section back when I first joined AW. :)

[john barnes on toast]

Some very famous and wonderful novels open with dialogue,


A hell of a lot more don't.

[Nakhlasmoke]

A hell of a lot more don't.

So what?

[AnonymousWriter]

A hell of a lot more don't.

A hell of a lot more novels are written than actually published. Doesn't mean it can't be done though...

[IdiotsRUs]

Firstly, the reader has no idea who is talking, why they are saying what they are saying or the context within which they speak.


See, I've never understood that argument - could apply to almost ANY first line. Why is there a line of prose about trains? Where / what the heck is Manderley? Why should I care that your name is Ishmael? etc etc

As long as it becomes clear within a sentence or two, I'm not going to put a book down because the first sentence doesn't have any context - because no first line can have context. Because, it's like, you know, the first.

I like books that start with dialogue, esp in fantasy. It means I've started mid-action and with luck I won't have to wade through three pages of infodump about the location :D

[SarahMacManus]

I actually like stories that start off with dialogue, if it's done well. If the voice of the character is lively and the dialogue puts me right into the action, I think it's very engaging. Dialogue can be very revealing, indicating the time, place, culture, tone and theme of the whole novel in just a few lines without all that pesky back-story.

I mean - doesn't Tom Sawyer start with dialogue, and doesn't it pretty much tell you almost everything you need to know to start the story off?

I love it, honestly.

[maestrowork]

A hell of a lot more don't.

Not a reason to say, "Don't do it." Not at all.

[john barnes on toast]

Not a reason to say, "Don't do it." Not at all.


Nobody's saying that.

[maestrowork]

So, your point was?

[Tallent]

"TOM!"

No answer.

"TOM!"

No answer.

"What's gone with that boy,I wonder? You TOM!"

No answer.

[Dana-Lynn]

Gotta LOVE Tom Sawyer!!!!

:)

[Mister Cheech]

Glamorama does this really well. "Specks?"

[peachiemkey]

As of right now I start my second (YA) WIP with,

"Honey, I'm pregnant."
"Good," I say on impulse. "You and Dad can stop banging on the walls every night."

I think it works, haha. The setting comes in the next few lines.

[Dana-Lynn]

That's a good opening, Peachie! :) I like the voice already. Makes me want to keep reading.

:D