How much tragedy is too much???

bobcat22 · Jun 29, 2009

I'm working on my novel making changes per agent suggestions. The agent wants a bigger climax at the end to make it more dramatic. I'm playing with some ideas, but having a hard time focusing on something because I don't want it to be too tragic.

So far, the MC looses her mom (right before the book starts), moves to a new school where her brother is ostracized and as a results enlists in the Army. She has to deal with him being overseas and the possibility of him dying (lose is already strong b/c her mom has died). I want her feelings of fear about loosing her brother to put her in a compromising position (drinking to help deal/forget her fear for a moment) where she is raped.

The rape would fit with everything, but I wonder...is this too much to happen to one person? Would a teen buy it? What are your thoughts?

Alpha Echo · Jun 29, 2009

I think it's totally believable. Were I still a teen, I'd read it. I wouldn't get too too graphic with the rape scene, but all of that could definitely happen and probably has before.

I know someone who has a friend who had been through some unbelievable stuff - he lost both daughter at different times, lost his wife, and his entire body though different things that have happened to him is practically rebuilt. He has a ton of medical issues. Unforunately, after his remaining daughter died, he lost interest in life, and we're not sure how long it'll be before he kills himself.

This stuff happens. It's an unfortunate reality of life.

ylrebmik · Jun 29, 2009

Not at all.

I know a lot of people who have gone through twice as much as that.

Go for it

Stunted · Jun 29, 2009

I...I actually think that it's realistic, but that it still might be too much. Especially if it just randomly happens. It really depends on what you're trying to do.

Do you know what might be interesting? What if she--while totally drunk--willing slept with a guy that she liked, and she thought liked her. It would still be rape, but it might be harder on the MC and feel less melodramatic. I don't know. Just a thought.

wandergirl · Jun 29, 2009

I agree that it's not too much, but it will likely become the focal point of your book.

bobcat22 · Jun 29, 2009

Stunted...

You read my mind (kind of!). I think what I want to happen is that she sleeps with her boyfriend, but it's when she's drunk and does not consent (they are also kind of on the outs b/c he can't understand why she's become so consumed with thoughts of her brother and her fears). It's rape, but it's a fine line, because they have slept together before.

tengraceapples · Jun 29, 2009

Hey!

I think you are headed in the right direction with what you just said above. That way the line of rape or no rape is blured. Having her raped stright on takes on a life of it self. But no matter which way you go, make sure it feels right to you.

Good luck!

bobcat22 · Jun 29, 2009

Tengraceapples,

I think your comment about making sure it feels write rings true. I have agent interest, but the agent wants me to edge up the story a bit before reading a revision. I'm having a hard time keeping the story my story, yet making changes so it can be marketable (and hopefully snag me an agent). I need to keep going back to the thought that this is my story I'm telling, and before anything else, it needs to stay my story or everything I write thereafter is going to sound forced. Does that make sense? Thanks for your advice!

Danthia · Jun 29, 2009

Bigger doesn't always mean more drama or tragedy. My agent also had me revise my ending, and she told me to go deeper, not wider. Make the ending mean more to the protag, increase the stakes and make it much more personal.

Perhaps think about ways you can make your climax more personal and matter more, instead of throwing more bad stuff at it. The climax needs to resolve the conflict of the novel. So think about your overall story problem and how you can deepen that through the climax. What events might make it mean more or be more personal to your protag? What can you do to enhance the theme? Is there a way to mirror the original trauma so it all comes full circle?

bobcat22 · Jun 29, 2009

Danthia....

I like the questions you asked me to look at. I really am having a hard time with this climax. The original climax was that she uncovers a cheating ring within the basketball players, a fact known to the school, but ignored because the team was the town's hero. Exposing the team meant getting back at her boyfriend and finally getting her dad's attention (which she lost when he shut down after loosing her mom). Her dad is the coach of the team, so it's a very desperate, but necessary move. The suggestions I'm hearing from agents now is that the climax needs to be more than that, one said she felt let down that that is what brings everything to a head. I keep hearing the phrase to make it more edgy from agents who have read my fulls. I'm having a very hard time with this and staying true to the original voice in my novel. Ugh!

kaitlin008 · Jun 29, 2009

wandergirl said:
I agree that it's not too much, but it will likely become the focal point of your book.

I agree with this. Rape can't just be tossed in, and your MC is going to have to spend a lot of time dealing with what happened, emotionally at the very least. Even if she wants to pretend to others that she feels fine.

But if it works for your story, then I don't think it's too much at all. Bad things happen to people every day, it's the sad truth.

pixydust · Jun 29, 2009

bobcat22 said:
Stunted...

You read my mind (kind of!). I think what I want to happen is that she sleeps with her boyfriend, but it's when she's drunk and does not consent (they are also kind of on the outs b/c he can't understand why she's become so consumed with thoughts of her brother and her fears). It's rape, but it's a fine line, because they have slept together before.

I like this!

tengraceapples · Jun 30, 2009

Okay, so this may sound crazy but here goes...
You are being told to be more edgy (i hate that word by the way: )
and you are feeling like it is ...less of your story at this point(?) That's what I'm getting.

Anyway, try *asking* your MC if there is a secret she is keeping from you. Or maybe even herself.
Sometimes characters tell us almost everything.
*talk* to her. SHe has more to say. And she *came* to you with her story so she will tell you eveything if you let her talk.

Agents cant make you write a story you diont see in your head. So, start with your MC. Get to know her and maybe she'll tell you what really in the end...

Danthia · Jun 30, 2009

bobcat22 said:
Danthia....

I like the questions you asked me to look at. I really am having a hard time with this climax. The original climax was that she uncovers a cheating ring within the basketball players, a fact known to the school, but ignored because the team was the town's hero. Exposing the team meant getting back at her boyfriend and finally getting her dad's attention (which she lost when he shut down after loosing her mom). Her dad is the coach of the team, so it's a very desperate, but necessary move.

Okies, so what else could go wrong here? Is there another conflict that makes exposing this ring cost her something? With the dad as the coach, you probably have some good things there to explore. Or maybe it's connected to the town hero aspect. She does what she feels is right, but it costs her all her friends, kinda deal (but better) If she wants her dad's attention, this seems like a way to get bad attention, so how might you play with that? Is she willing to risk X to do this, gaining something she wants but losing something she needs? (Like revenge on the boyfriend, but it worsens her relationship with ther father and splits them further apart).

Can this situation cause a bigger problem that she needs to solve to finally get what she wants? (I'm guessing it's fix her relationship with her father?) Perhaps she needs to be pushed to the edge here in order to see what she really needs to do. But by then, it's almost too late to fix. She'll have to really dig deep to find a way to make it all work out.

bobcat22 · Jun 30, 2009

Tengraceapples:
You are right; I am being told to be more edgy, but I feel like I'm forcing this edginess. I like the idea of listening to the story my MC is trying to tell me. She's gotten me to the point of a completed manuscript, and I feel like she's fighting against me with all these changes I'm trying to come up with to "edge" it up. I do need to sit back and listen to her...I just wish she'd be a little louder with what she truly wants to tell in this story, because I still can't find it!

This is frustrating! What are some ways you let your characters tell their story???

bobcat22 · Jun 30, 2009

Danthia:

Thanks for helping me brainstorm. The one thing my MC does want is to fix the relationship with her father. He's thrown himself into basketball as a way to deal with the death or her mother, and she is desperate to reconnect with him. The act of bringing down the team is what she does to try to connect with her father and through his anger, he is able to understand what essentially he's destroyed. I like your idea of a bigger problem, although I'm not sure what that is yet. I need to do some more thinking. I wonder if there is a way to make the book more edgy without making it gritty. Does that even make sense?!

tengraceapples · Jun 30, 2009

bobcat22 said:
Tengraceapples: This is frustrating! What are some ways you let your characters tell their story???

Hey!

I think the best way to hear the characters is to go into thier world.
Here are a few ways I have tried. See if one or more helps you.

1- Play the music they would listen to loud. They tend to *flash* scenes that happen in thier lives.(think of it as a music video that they are showing only to you)

2-play thier music softly in the back ground and *listen* to thier conversations. Not like a music video in this example. It's more like the song that comes up underneath.

3-read the scene you heard the loudest. You know, that scene that came so easy because you heard every word clear as day) read that to yourself. Then let them contiune to talk.

4-Ask your MC questions.
(Dont ask what happen at the end of thier story instead ask if he/she has a secret, what was the most painfully thing they ever felt?, Who have they loved?, who have they feared?, When was the last time they cried?, Who betrayed them?, When did they feel truly loved? ) GET PERSONAL.

5-Get a journal (but not one that you would like but one that your MC likes) Journals are great becasue it is so personal. Have your MC write as much or a little as they want. Dont tell them what to say, just let them say it. Let your MC write jokes, confesstons, thoughts, hopes, etc.

THE POINT HERE IS TO GET TO KNOW THEM LIKE YOU WOULD A GUY OR GIRL YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH. DONT PERSSURE THEM, WOO THEM.

Hope this helps: )

Canotila · Jun 30, 2009

tengraceapples said:
THE POINT HERE IS TO GET TO KNOW THEM LIKE YOU WOULD A GUY OR GIRL YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH. DONT PERSSURE THEM, WOO THEM.

^^ This!

What is her personality like? That should help you pick a good tactic. I can sometimes coax my shy characters into telling me who else knows about their secret, and then go to the other character once I know who it is for more information. Sometimes it is a character I've never heard of, so I go meet them, they tell me about themselves and I learn a whole lot of things about the MC/different facets of the story that I never knew.

bobcat22 · Jul 1, 2009

Tengraceapples....
I love your ideas about how to get in touch with my main character. I have a list of songs that I listen to when I write (it's on my ipod as "Songs to Write to"), but I don't have specific songs for my MC. I created a list of her songs today, and listened to them all the way home. I could totally channel her, but she's still a bit shy. I'll see what I can do to get her to speak louder.

It's funny, but the first title of my book was "How Loud do you have to Yell Until Someone Hears You." My narrator is trying to get people to listen to her/notice her throughout the whole book. I think she's trying to get me to do the same thing. Now I just need to figure out how to hear her!

Does anyone else have good ideas on how to get in touch with you character? I'm fully ready to woo her....bring on the ideas as to how to do that!

Elysium · Jul 1, 2009

As a teen and a reader of YA, I'd definitely read this! People don't really write those edgy dark realistic YAs anymore, well they do, but you don't find them a lot.

This idea is not too dark or over-the-top. It's realistic and lots of people could relate to this, no matter if they've lost a family member to the Army or being raped.

bobcat22 · Jul 1, 2009

Elysium....

I'm glad you could see yourself reading (and believing) a story with all of these elements. During the past few days, I've stopped trying to think about what is realistic and just let myself write. I'm really excited about where my character is leading me and how the situations are playing out. It's a dark place, but my MC seems to be pretty strong throughout it all!

tengraceapples · Jul 2, 2009

bobcat22 said:
Tengraceapples....
I'm fully ready to woo her....bring on the ideas as to how to do that!

Try one or more of these:

--HAve her write an HANDWRITTEN letter to the person she trust the most.(must be by hand. There is *soul* in long hand)

--Ask her what three things that happen in her life, that she would like to change if she could.

--Watch TV shows she would watch and more imporatantly shows that she would NEVER admit to watching.

--MAke your own list of the top ten list of what the worse thing is that can happen to a girl. Bring the list up to her. See which she casts off and which she strangly reacting to.

--Go to a near by place that she would likly be seen at. Let her walk around, watch her. See where she goes and follow.

I hope this helps: )

bobcat22 · Jul 2, 2009

Thanks, tengraceapples! All of those are great ideas! I need to start channeling my MC! Alot of these are good questions to pose to her and maybe write/answer them in a journal as if my character is writing it. I like the idea of building tangiable artifacts related to my character to help develop a story!

tengraceapples · Jul 2, 2009

I'm glad my post helped. Now if only I can convince my MC's to wait for me to get an agent before they spill the rest of book 2 to me. I've had them *on pause* for four months while I try to get rep for book 1, I fear one day they will get restless and say "screw this". Anyway,

Good luck!: )

bobcat22 · Jul 3, 2009

Ha! I love when your MCs get into your head and keep telling you to write, write! Mine would do that at the worst times (work...driving!). Best wishes on an agent!

How much tragedy is too much???

bobcat22

Alpha Echo

I should be writing.

ylrebmik

Stunted

Ich heiße Superphantastisch!

wandergirl

~kirsten hubbard

bobcat22

tengraceapples

bobcat22

Danthia

bobcat22

kaitlin008

Seeing newness all the time

pixydust

Mother Flippin' Rhymnosorous

tengraceapples

Danthia

bobcat22

bobcat22

tengraceapples

Canotila

Sever your leg please.

bobcat22

Elysium

believe

bobcat22

tengraceapples

bobcat22

tengraceapples

bobcat22