Writing with British rules.

dianeP · Jun 27, 2009

I don't know if this goes in basic writing, but here goes.

I'm ghost-writing or re-writing for someone in England and I'm having a few problems.

I've noticed some differences in British punctuation and while I've confirmed a few things "Like punctuation outside a quote". which I can't get used to seeing, I have another question.

"Hello, mate", Carol said as she shook my hand, "How have you been"?

Should that comma after hand be a period?

If you know of other British rules, questions I've not even thought to ask, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

Parametric · Jun 27, 2009

dianeP said:
I've noticed some differences in British punctuation and while I've confirmed a few things "Like punctuation outside a quote". which I can't get used to seeing, I have another question.

"Hello, mate", Carol said as she shook my hand, "How have you been"?

Should that comma after hand be a period?

Punctuation goes outside a quote if it's a quote, but this is dialogue. Also, that comma is a period.

"Hello, mate," Carol said as she shook my hand. "How have you been?"

dpaterso · Jun 27, 2009

Agreed. Maybe we need to see another couple of samples?

-Derek

Lisa Cox · Jun 27, 2009

As the others said, punctuation definitely goes inside the quotes in dialogue. And that comma should be a fullstop because you're beginning the next piece of dialogue with a capital letter (in other words, it's a new sentence, so the one before it -- the action tag -- must end with a fullstop).

dianeP · Jun 27, 2009

Okay, so are you saying that if it's dialogue the punctuation goes inside the quotation marks? Cause the piece I'm working on is full of the "Opposite". I've asked the original writer about it and she didn't seem to know.

I see that you guys are from over there, so I trust you, but I just want to be sure I understand you properly.

As far as that comma after hand, you guys confirmed what I already suspected. Thanks.

The piece I'm working on is also so full of commas where a period should be, that I began to wonder... A period is a period and is used in England as it is in North America, right?

Another thing; she uses 'as' in lieu of 'because' a lot. Like; I had to walk to school as our car was at the garage. I had to listen to my parents as that is how I was raised.

Is 'because' a no-no and must it always be 'as' in cases like this. I wanted to throw in a because or something else just to mix it up a bit.

Thanks for your help.

Mr Flibble · Jun 27, 2009

A period is a period and is used in England as it is in North America, right?

Yup.

Another thing; she uses 'as' in lieu of 'because' a lot. Like; I had to walk to school as our car was at the garage. I had to listen to my parents as that is how I was raised.

Well that's how we talk( in some places) - if it's First Person narration, then that would be ok as it's in the right voice.If it isn't...not so much

The main differences between UK and US is spelling and using ' instead of ". Other than that ( and as I've noted, voice) it should be pretty much the same.

Millicent M'Lady · Jun 27, 2009

Either a "because" or "as" would fit perfectly in that instance. There is no British rule which says that these are not interchangeable in examples like the one above.

Periods (fullstops! "Periods" still makes me giggle at 25!) are used almost exactly the same way, except where they relate to dialogue as far as I can remember. Hope this helps.

dianeP · Jun 27, 2009

dpaterso said:
Agreed. Maybe we need to see another couple of samples?

-Derek

I have an example where it is not a part of dialogue, but irony. (or so I'm told)

She wanted to talk to me in "private". How were we supposed to find a spot that was "private", especially today?

In these cases, is it okay to have the punctuation outside the quote?

Or, Although we'd been told to "get along together or go home", I couldn't find...

Thanks

Mr Flibble · Jun 27, 2009

Periods (fullstops! "Periods" still makes me giggle at 25!) are used almost exactly the same way, except where they relate to dialogue as far as I can remember.

Makes me giggle too! But how are they different in dialogue? I've not noticed any difference in the US or UK books I've got.

I could just be blind obviously

How were we supposed to find a spot that was "private",

in this case, it's using quotes for emphasis ( doesn't look like irony to me), so I think that would be right.

Millicent M'Lady · Jun 27, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
Makes me giggle too! But how are they different in dialogue? I've not noticed any difference in the US or UK books I've got.

I could just be blind obviously

in this case, it's using quotes for emphasis ( doesn't look like irony to me), so I think that would be right.

Turns out we're both five years old!

I recall a very nice beta of mine pointing out that my dialogue/punctuation style was not the accepted British style but the American (I think or I may have confused matters). Found this very interesting link which might help. http://wordcount.deviantart.com/art/Punctuating-Dialogue-A-Guide-73936110Apparently a lot of the debate is moot and based on old conventions. Who knew?!

If I may recommend a book, Eats Shoots and Leaves is one of the funniest and most informative books you can get to help you with this. It's very clear and concise and it helps to make sense of all the rules really succinctly.

dianeP · Jun 27, 2009

Can I throw a few more at you guys?

I've just come across this line: It transpired that I had been duped.

That doesn't sound right to me. Transpired is the word I don't like in this case. Is there any instance in which this would be okay?

I found that whilst is still acceptable, but what about leant? I coulnd't find that anywhere.

Millicent M'Lady · Jun 27, 2009

Leant? Can you use that in context?

Your aversion to transpired seems to be more personal taste than opposition to an American style vs. British style.

There are certain words which are used differently in America than Britain and Ireland etc (disorienting in US vs. disorientating in Britain as I learned here on AW) but most are dually acceptable.

Izz · Jun 27, 2009

dianeP said:
Can I throw a few more at you guys?

I've just come across this line: It transpired that I had been duped.

That doesn't sound right to me. Transpired is the word I don't like in this case. Is there any instance in which this would be okay?

What's wrong with transpired? Makes perfect sense in that sentence. The only thing i'd change is to contract 'I had' to 'I'd'.

I found that whilst is still acceptable, but what about leant? I coulnd't find that anywhere.

Leant is the past participle of lean. Just like leapt is the past participle of leap. There shouldn't be an issue with using either of them.

dianeP · Jun 27, 2009

I guess I find that transpired sounds too formal in a case like this. Kind of like a police interrogation.

"Could you please tell us what transpired on the night of..."

But to just say, "It transpired that a friend of mine lived down the block and I went by to see her." I don't know, still doesn't sound right.

If it turns out to be a question of my personal taste, I'll leave it as it is.

Leant: He sat down and leant over me.

So that is okay? I guess it's just something I've not seen often. Leapt, yeah. Leant, not so much.

Thanks!

dpaterso · Jun 27, 2009

dianeP said:
I guess I find that transpired sounds too formal in a case like this. Kind of like a police interrogation.

"transpired" does have a formal report kind of feel to it.

Leant: He sat down and leant over me.
So that is okay? I guess it's just something I've not seen often. Leapt, yeah. Leant, not so much.

I think I'd use leaned instead of leant. (It's hard to lean over someone when you're sitting down, no? But maybe that was just an off-the-cuff example.)

-Derek

Mr Flibble · Jun 28, 2009

I guess I find that transpired sounds too formal in a case like this. Kind of like a police interrogation.

"Could you please tell us what transpired on the night of..."

But to just say, "It transpired that a friend of mine lived down the block and I went by to see her." I don't know, still doesn't sound right.

Hmmm I use transpire quite a lot. And I'm far from formal

Depends entirely on the person saying it.

Leant: He sat down and leant over me.

So that is okay? I guess it's just something I've not seen often. Leapt, yeah. Leant, not so much.

Leant, leapt, dreamt and th erest, all good as far as I'm concerned. .

Sophia · Jun 28, 2009

dianeP said:
Another thing; she uses 'as' in lieu of 'because' a lot. Like; I had to walk to school as our car was at the garage. I had to listen to my parents as that is how I was raised.

Is 'because' a no-no and must it always be 'as' in cases like this. I wanted to throw in a because or something else just to mix it up a bit.

I thought as was used when you were making comparisons. For example, "She was as sick as a dog."

In the example you've given, I would say because (or more typically, shorten it to 'cause, depending on the audience). You could also have "I had to walk to school, seeing as our car's at the garage" if you want more differences. It would depend on the character, how image-conscious and language-conscious they were, and the formality of the situation they were in.

I also use leant rather than leaned in everyday conversation.

Edit: Instead of "it transpired ...", you could have "it turned out that ...".

dianeP · Jun 28, 2009

Hi, anyone still there?

I have another question. (You all will probably tire of this before I run out of questions.)

The word male, comes up a lot. I know the word is legit and all, but;

We met Carla in town along with the three males we'd planned to lunch with..

One of the males was tall and good looking...

I came face to face with a white male...

... again, this sounds so formal (to me). Actually, it leads me to think we're talking about chimps or something. Hmmm... now that's not so formal. Am I making any sense?

Thanks

Is this the common and proper way of referring to a man? A guy? A boy?

Lisa Cox · Jun 28, 2009

I think you're starting to over-think this. A lot of the examples you give are a matter of personal style choice and nothing to do with Brit/Wherever else differences. They're word choices that you and your original author need to decide yourself. We have no idea which words work best in the context of the novel.

Sophia · Jun 28, 2009

I'm surprised, but I can't actually find "males" in any dictionary. It seems to be a word that has been invented and used when "men" would have been appropriate.

In your example, I would say "blokes" or "men". I don't think "males", correct or not, would be most people's first choice. It would be a nice indicator of your character's character, I think, if they did use it, along with the tone they used to say it.

Mr Flibble · Jun 28, 2009

What Lisa said.

That's about the voice of the author / character, not about whether they are Brit or not.

Is this the common and proper way of referring to a man? A guy? A boy?

For some people maybe. Again, depends on the person. My Mum would say man, I'd probably say guy or bloke. Though I prefer 'phwoooar!' or 'not with a bargepole' myself

dianeP · Jun 28, 2009

Thanks... I guess you guys are right. It is just a matter of her style and her way of expressing certain things.

Okay, Lisa... I'll try not to overthink it too much

but darn it, it's hard not to.

Thanks again!!

mercades · Jul 5, 2009

I don't know if this will help you, but i would think it depends on how the character uses diction and grammer. if it is a character who speaks more polite as opposed to one who doesn't then words like transpired and male fit with the way they talk.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 5, 2009

Is this person a police officer, or otherwise employed in law enforcement? Because it seems to me that those folks use "males" and "females" a lot in ordinary conversation, because it is the preferred term in writing police reports. Same with "transpired" and other locutions like "at this point in time."

john barnes on toast · Jul 5, 2009

ElaraSophia said:
I'm surprised, but I can't actually find "males" in any dictionary.

that's only because dictionaries don't tend to give the pluralised version of a noun if it's simply achieved by the addition of an 's'.

eg. they won't list the pluralised version of Tiger, even thought they will Octopus.

Which of course doesn't change the fact that the usage of 'male' in the noun form reads completely bizarrely in the example cited above.
It's very odd, and unless there's some rationale within the story to use such an anthropological term (eg. it's an alternate world were males are a subservient class) then I really can't understand any purpose to it.

Writing with British rules.

dianeP

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