Homosexual characters (and including irrelevant information)

Fanatic Rat · Jun 25, 2009

I was just wondering, what are people's views on having homosexual, bisexual, or transgender main characters or even a protagonist in novels, especially those in which homosexuality isn't the main theme or anything? I mean, let's say you have a novel and the protagonist happens to be gay but the story isn't about a romance or overly concerned with his overcoming adversity or something like that.

I ask because, while in something like, say, the furry fandom you can make characters arbitrarily gay and no one really cares, I've never seen that in main stream fiction. Some secondary character or something, maybe, but never the MC. It seems like, if I were to make the MC or one of the MCs gay I need a real reason behind it and need to elaborate heavily about it, and only in a piece that's aimed towards the gay scene. Yeah, it can be a real important piece of their character, but I feel like if I did make one of them gay and I didn't spend a bunch of time on overcoming adversity it would come off as cheap diversity for diversity's sake or maybe just a ploy for attention or something of the sort--in fact, it may seem that way anyway I put them in there.

I know making the character's sexuality his or her sole defining trait is no good, but I honestly don't know how people feel about this--I know some people will be put off regardless due to their aditudes towards homosexuality, but I still want to do it well, in a way where it doesn't seem cheap. I dunno, are there any books out there that do this well? Can it be done well? Is it more the reader than that author?

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

What are your feelings on having random heterosexual characters in novels?

dawinsor · Jun 25, 2009

The main character in Diana Gabaldon's Lord John books is homosexual, and the stories aren't primarily about that, though of course it influences his life.

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

dawinsor said:
The main character in Diana Gabaldon's Lord John books is homosexual, and the stories aren't primarily about that, though of course it influences his life.

WHUT! Oh my god, why did no-one tell me of this depravi-

Oh wait, I just realised. It doesn't matter.

Carry on.

(Srsly, I'm not being bitchy, just sarky...story comes first. If your characters are homo-, hetero- or bisexual, so what? Even if some readers are put off, so what?)

Deleted member 42 · Jun 25, 2009

Honestly, I think there's no reason not to include queer characters.

Just don't, you know, don't have like Swedes, or Walloons, or people who play classical violin or drink Red Bull and Jaeger, or have green eyes.

That's just friggin' bizarre.

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

I think the general consensus is "Gays are people too."

katiemac · Jun 25, 2009

Fanatic Rat said:
I was just wondering, what are people's views on having homosexual, bisexual, or transgender main characters or even a protagonist in novels, especially those in which homosexuality isn't the main theme or anything? I mean, let's say you have a novel and the protagonist happens to be gay but the story isn't about a romance or overly concerned with his overcoming adversity or something like that.

I ask because, while in something like, say, the furry fandom you can make characters arbitrarily gay and no one really cares, I've never seen that in main stream fiction. Some secondary character or something, maybe, but never the MC. It seems like, if I were to make the MC or one of the MCs gay I need a real reason behind it and need to elaborate heavily about it, and only in a piece that's aimed towards the gay scene. Yeah, it can be a real important piece of their character, but I feel like if I did make one of them gay and I didn't spend a bunch of time on overcoming adversity it would come off as cheap diversity for diversity's sake or maybe just a ploy for attention or something of the sort--in fact, it may seem that way anyway I put them in there.

I know making the character's sexuality his or her sole defining trait is no good, but I honestly don't know how people feel about this--I know some people will be put off regardless due to their aditudes towards homosexuality, but I still want to do it well, in a way where it doesn't seem cheap. I dunno, are there any books out there that do this well? Can it be done well? Is it more the reader than that author?

I know what you're asking. Personally I don't have a problem with it, and I wish we had more diverse characters in novels when, sure, maybe it doesn't matter. But we've had this discussion on the boards before, and some people mentioned the big point: Then why mention it at all?

You might see a character as white/black/gay/purple. But if it doesn't come up in the context of the novel, is it worth bringing up? I have a gay character (yeah, a side character, not the main) who I didn't think I needed to actually mention was gay until I needed a scene where he brought around his boyfriend. And that was necessary to the story at the time. But have I mentioned he's black? Nope, just because there was no need -- just like I didn't say someone else was white, and someone else was Asian.

J.K. Rowling found herself in this position twice. When they started filming and doing casting for the first Potter, she told the casting directors that one of the kids was black. He wasn't mentioned as being black in the book (cut from the original version, I believe), but she wanted, on screen, the right casting. And for seven fat novels she didn't mention once Dumbledore was gay, because it just didn't matter for the story.

I think what it comes down to is your character and your story. Is your character gay? Okay, yes, fine. Does he currently have a boyfriend that is important to the story? No. Does he have an ex worth mentioning, maybe one that might explain some current behavior? No? Will his sexuality make any difference at all in the grand scheme of things? Has it shaped his life in a way that makes him react to things/people/situations? No? (I kind of have a hard time with that 'no,' but to make my point ...)

Then I probably wouldn't mention it at all, just like I wouldn't mention his hair color. But if you DID mention it, and its still a 'no' answer to all of the above -- I'm still okay with it.

backslashbaby · Jun 25, 2009

katiemac said:
I know what you're asking. Personally I don't have a problem with it, and I wish we had more diverse characters in novels when, sure, maybe it doesn't matter. But we've had this discussion on the boards before, and some people mentioned the big point: Then why mention it at all?

You might see a character as white/black/gay/purple. But if it doesn't come up in the context of the novel, is it worth bringing up? I have a gay character (yeah, a side character, not the main) who I didn't think I needed to actually mention was gay until I needed a scene where he brought around his boyfriend. And that was necessary to the story at the time. But have I mentioned he's black? Nope, just because there was no need -- just like I didn't say someone else was white, and someone else was Asian.

J.K. Rowling found herself in this position twice. When they started filming and doing casting for the first Potter, she told the casting directors that one of the kids was black. He wasn't mentioned as being black in the book (cut from the original version, I believe), but she wanted, on screen, the right casting. And for seven fat novels she didn't mention once Dumbledore was gay, because it just didn't matter for the story.

I think what it comes down to is your character and your story. Is your character gay? Okay, yes, fine. Does he currently have a boyfriend that is important to the story? No. Does he have an ex worth mentioning, maybe one that might explain some current behavior? No? Will his sexuality make any difference at all in the grand scheme of things? Has it shaped his life in a way that makes him react to things/people/situations? No? (I kind of have a hard time with that 'no,' but to make my point ...)

Then I probably wouldn't mention it at all, just like I wouldn't mention his hair color. But if you DID mention it, and its still a 'no' answer to all of the above -- I'm still okay with it.

Very interesting post! As a reader, I probably disagree (as a writer I do so much socio-political wankery I know I disagree for my stuff

).

If a character has something that will affect how they are viewed in culture, I want to hear about it.

That said, I don't think it has to have a 'reason' any more than eye color, etc. Totally agree with SP on that one.

ETA: or its own plot line, to directly answer the question

katiemac · Jun 25, 2009

backslashbaby said:
Very interesting post! As a reader, I probably disagree (as a writer I do so much socio-political wankery I know I disagree for my stuff ).

Don't worry, I kind of disagree with what I wrote, too, you know. But it really, for me, just depends on the kind of story you're writing.

For example, let's pretend Professor Langdon from Da Vinci Code/Angels and Demons were gay. I don't actually remember Dan Brown mentioning his sexuality one way or another, aside from some possible sexual tension with the leading women. But whatever. In Angels and Demons, the story takes place in the span of a couple of hours. I'd have a hard time time overcoming the idea that for those four or five hours, when Langdon is busy running around solving codes and stopping murders that there would be an appropriate point to stop and say, "Oh yeah, and he's gay." But this is a story that doesn't lend much to character development in the first place, it's much more about the plot.

Now, if you were writing something that takes place over the span of four or five days, years, whatever, then heck yes I would expect the character's sexuality to be mentioned at some point. Especially if this is a story that is based more on the character solving problems that come from him or her, unlike a story like Angels and Demons where Langdon is getting someone else's problems to solve. (In that case, his personal experiences help because he is trained in codes, not anything else. Unlike a character-driven story, where a character might be dealing with the death of friend, or something.)

I don't think it's any problem that the character is gay, or that maybe you don't have a real plot-based reason for that character to be gay -- only that circumstances of the story have allowed you to reveal that information.

MsGneiss · Jun 25, 2009

Obviously gays are people too, but even if the story doesn't have much to do with romance or relationships, one's sexual identity is quite crucial when it comes to self image, and various other aspects that will influence your character's development throughout the story. This is especially true in a society such as ours, where sexual identity is not as ubiquitous a trait as hair color. Not to discourage you from using a gay character, but you should be prepared to address some of those issues, albeit on a minor level, throughout the story.

Salis · Jun 25, 2009

OH GOD THE GAYS SOMEONE HELP ME

(just kidding)

It's really not a big deal. Just keep in mind that it will put off some people. In a typical hetero relationship, there's at least one side of the relationship that people can sort of relate with or be attracted to.

With a man-man relationship, most men are going to find very little to relate to. With a woman-woman relationship, most women are going to find very little to relate to.

I think if you keep it fairly off-screen, even people who relate to it aren't going to be put off. However, keep in mind, that like with all sorts of relationships, the more sexual you make it, the bigger the chance that people who don't relate to it are going to be put off.

A steamy man-man treatment is going to put off a lot of people.

Ultimately, though, it's your story, you should write what's interesting to you. As regards "if there is no adult relationships, it doesn't matter what their orientation is": I generally agree, but I think if someone is asking if a homosexual character is doable in the first place, they're planning some sort of coupling.

Shweta · Jun 25, 2009

I totally agree with the people saying yes! Why not have a gay main character? That doesn't have to make the story be about Teh Gay or Tex s3xxor, any more than having a straight main character does

But I think writers need to take the cultural pressures on said character into account.

backslashbaby said:
If a character has something that will affect how they are viewed in culture, I want to hear about it.

This exactly. From my experience in British schools, Rowling's black character is just not plausible. Race most certainly affected how my classmates treated the single black kid (and the couple Indian kids) in the British school I spent most time in -- and note that the Hogwarts kids made fun of the Frenchies, which is a couple steps further backwards than anyone in my school was. It didn't come up in the obvious ways, necessarily, but there was always an undercurrent. So me, I find Rowling having had a black character but never having needed to mention it to be deeply implausible wishful thinking.

Similarly, a gay character is either out -- at which point it affects how other people interact with 'em, in anything but (potentially) a far-future culture like Iain M Banks' Culture, or they're not out, and that pressure is going to affect them psychologically, as any pressure does. They're going to be surrounded by rhetoric, and probably some of it will be homophobic. A not-out gay guy is probably going to have to deal with his friends saying insensitive things or attempting to straight-matchmake out of ignorance.

That said, I don't think it has to have a 'reason' any more than eye color, etc. Totally agree with SP on that one.

ETA: or its own plot line, to directly answer the question

Agreed

badducky · Jun 25, 2009

If you have any hope of constructing a plausible universe around your book, you're going to have to include plausible gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered characters.

The conspicuous absence of the gay is far more conspicuous than the inclusion of the gay.

It's quite similar to trying to portray New York City without including any non-white characters of even remote consequence (*cough* Friends *cough*) which is frightening and awkward in its inaccuracy, or a portrait of suburban Texas without Asian and Mexican immigrants (Notice King of the Hill has a very strong Asian presence with the mingling of cultures that results? That's because they got that part right.)

People are people are people. Without diversity, you aren't writing people, you're writing characters. I prefer to believe my fictional stories are true. I prefer to read about people, not characters.

If your main character happens to be gay, you won't be weird or marginalized as long as that character reads like a person.

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

Also, a pet niggle of mine: sleeping with someone of the same sex doesn't mean your character is gay.

Bisexuals are people too.

(Sorry. Had to add that. People seem to forget it's not either/or).

veinglory · Jun 25, 2009

I don't know about anyone else but I have read plenty of fiction where the hero was gay, or other characters happened to be gay and it wasn't what the book was "about". There are plenty of mystery and sci fi books that fit that description. What is weird is that being a straight white American male is ever seen as some kind of default, with any "deviation" from that need some kind of justification. If anyone wants a reading list of "happens to be gay" protags I can make one when I get home.

Shweta · Jun 25, 2009

katiemac said:
I don't think it's any problem that the character is gay, or that maybe you don't have a real plot-based reason for that character to be gay -- only that circumstances of the story have allowed you to reveal that information.

Well, wouldn't possible sexual tensions with leading woman be rather differently tense, especially if she was Being Interested?
Not saying it's necessary, but I do think it's pretty likely that in a novel-length work some ways you treat the character are gonna be different. That's all

Shadow_Ferret · Jun 25, 2009

badducky said:
If you have any hope of constructing a plausible universe around your book, you're going to have to include plausible gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered characters.

The conspicuous absence of the gay is far more conspicuous than the inclusion of the gay.

So, what you're saying, it's like a quota system now? You have to have a gay, a black, a hispanic, and an Asian woman in your story or it'll be panned?

katiemac · Jun 25, 2009

So me, I find Rowling having had a black character but never having needed to mention it to be deeply implausible wishful thinking.

I just wanted to clarify, since I was the one to bring it up originally: Rowling did mention the character was black (I'm talking about Dean, here, for those who read the books), but it was cut from the draft. I believe the British version cut it out but the American version left it in. Or vice versa. But, for the sake of her story, I think it's okay either way - in the magical world they were more interested in pure/half bloods, and that symbolism took over the racial one.

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

Shadow_Ferret said:
So, what you're saying, it's like a quota system now? You have to have a gay, a black, a hispanic, and an Asian woman in your story or it'll be panned?

I bloody hope not. None of my heterosexual characters will apologise for being so.

Shweta · Jun 25, 2009

veinglory said:
What is weird is that being a straight white middle-class secular-protestant physically-able neurotypical monolingual-anglophone American male is ever seen as some kind of default, with any "deviation" from that need some kind of justification.

Fixed that for you

If anyone wants a reading list of "happens to be gay" protags I can make one when I get home.

I'd love one, actually. And that reminds me, I need to compile a list too (YA by/about people of color, in my case)

MDSchafer · Jun 25, 2009

I work for a gay newspaper and I don't have a lot of gay characters in my fiction, in part because after working 40+ hours with the gay press I don't really want to deal with it.

My advice is this.

Gay men have become the new "Best friend" to straight girls. We're there to give the main character advice and help them along the way, but the stories not really about us, and we kinda walk around in novels with the words "Gay" on our backs.

Lesbian are a different matter. I'm rather tired of seeing hot straight women play lesbians.

I think if you want to include gay characters do it, but avoid stereotypes and cliches. One of my friends is a sci-fi writer and he's working on a short story about space exploration and at one point the characters are talking about how much they're missing home and one of the guys volunteers that his boyfriend broke up with him before they left. Didn't really have much to do with whole story, but I appreciated it, and it worked in the context of his story.

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

Shweta said:
Fixed that for you

I'd love one, actually. And that reminds me, I need to compile a list too (YA by/about people of color, in my case)

Noughts and Crosses, Marjorie Blackman.

For a start.

Alan Yee · Jun 25, 2009

Many of my stories, including my urban fantasy novel, have gay and bisexual characters. Yes, there are male/male relationships in my book. Yes, it will probably put off a lot of people, but the "EEEEWWWWW teh ghey" people probably aren't part of my target audience. The characters' orientations are important to the story, but I still don't believe the book is "about" being gay/bi.

scarletpeaches · Jun 25, 2009

UF with teh bi guys FTW!

Adam · Jun 25, 2009

Pfft, makes no odds. Go for it.

Homosexual characters (and including irrelevant information)

Sometimes I didn't even give a damn

Dorothy A. Winsor

Deleted member 42

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