Question for Grand Fantasy types.

[Nateskate]

I posted here instead of the Fantasy/Sci fi, because I think there's more traffic here.

Scenario. I'm cautiously optomistic about the fate of book one. Being that the Genre is fantasy, which allows for Gigandamundo sized books, I prefer not to go "Phone Book" size, even if I could get away with it, which I'm not sure I could anyway, because I'm not yet a big wig.

I wanted to be around 100,000-120,000 for book two. Well, now I'm between 136,000-140,000, which is more than I wanted.

Obviously, I buy into, "You've got to satisfy the reader." Now, the easiest solution for me is simply to move one or two chapters into book three.

Now, this is really a salt to taste question. If I go back two chapters, the story will end bitter-sweet.

A fifteen year old disobeys his mother, and winds up on journey in over his head. He winds up cut off from returning home, by thousands of evil Mauraders who are banding together to attack the nearby lord of the Land.

This young man is propelled into what amounts to an enchanted forest. There are unseen beings out to destroy his world, but they can't touch him directly, and in fact, can't see him at all, but want to kill him. Essentially, they try to use the beasts that can see and smell him, and the forest itself, to kill him. Along the way, he hooks up with and is befriended by people of a mysterious race that the outside world doesn't know exist. And "his problem", becomes "their problem", in that there is a grand attack on their village by possessed animals, who gloatingly reveal some of their plans.

So, book one becomes a journey by the boy and one leader of these somewhat Hobbit-like people, to the west, in search of answers. There is a house of Seers (they are well over a thousand years old), and the story can end after his arrival, and the revelation of "Why the forest has turned against him". Obviously, the answer is far bigger than the forest, and leads to the discovery of a much more sinister war.

However, if I end there, it ends on a bittersweet note. He's essentially depressed with the weight of the world on his shoulders, and asking "Why not somebody else."

If I keep the next chapter, it is just "cool on cool", in that these mysterious unseen beings become empowered to not only reveal themselves, but to begin their attack. For reasons explained in the book, they are not always physically capable of impacting our world, and in fact, what makes the next chapter particularly dramatic, is when these beasts come into the camp of these wicked men. They begin manifesting themselves, taking over, and establishing who is in control. The verbal banter between the wicked-leader, and the voices of these creatures, who speak both through possessed men, and out of the air, is exceptionally dramatic. Oh, they're nasty, and have this dramatic way of punctuating a point. Oh, and they form a very precarious alliance that just makes the urgency of...

Well, I could go on and on. Then again, that could be a strong start to book three. I think the bittersweet is very touching. Which way would you go, a little bit longer and ending on high drama, or a little bit shorter and facing the question of questions, "Am I cut out for being the Frodo of this generation, with no guarantee I'll make a diffence. The only guarantee is that if I do nothing, my mother will die, and eventually, the world ends." Oh, yeah, did I say he finds out if he rejects his call, it will cost him terribly?

[Saanen]

I wouldn't worry so much about the length but about which ending is better for your book. My own preference would be the bittersweet ending (as long as it has a satisfying feel--at least some of the loose ends bundled together, even though you're leaving some of them loose for the sequel).

Also, if you cut the last few chapters from this book and use them in the sequel, you've already got a head start on the next book!

[Mistook]

I would say that the chapter with the evil beings beginning to manifest as they overtake the camp would be a killer beginning to a new book!

From what you've said, it sounds like that particular chapter has these beings doing things not thought possible throughout the first book. I think it would be good to throw a few hints that such abilties are within (or nearly within) their reach, but I would definitely leave that for the opener of Book II.

Either way, once you've established where the end of Book I is going to be, you can go back and prepare the reader for that particualr ending. Bittersweet is okay as long as enough is resolved to seem satisfying if (God forbid) a second book were never to be published.

I know you are into LOTR, but I think back to Star Wars, myself. I saw that original flick as a kid and it was enough to give me and my friends fodder for years of imaginative play. In many ways we foresaw the next movie, but might've been satisfied if it were never released.

But when "Empire Strikes Back" opens, they're on a hostile ice-planet facing hopeless odds, battling enormous "ATAT-Walkers" with makeshift little snow-speeders. It was more drama than we could've imagined, and it ended on such a dark note. Han was in carbon freeze. Luke lost his hand. Evil prevailed. And that again raised the stakes for the third movie.

It's okay to end Book II on a cliffhanger, but not Book I.

[Nateskate]

I would say that the chapter with the evil beings beginning to manifest as they overtake the camp would be a killer beginning to a new book!

Either way, once you've established where the end of Book I is going to be, you can go back and prepare the reader for that particualr ending. Bittersweet is okay as long as enough is resolved to seem satisfying if (God forbid) a second book were never to be published.

I know you are into LOTR, but I think back to Star Wars, myself. I saw that original flick as a kid and it was enough to give me and my friends fodder for years of imaginative play. In many ways we foresaw the next movie, but might've been satisfied if it were never released.

But when "Empire Strikes Back" opens, they're on a hostile ice-planet facing hopeless odds, battling enormous "ATAT-Walkers" with makeshift little snow-speeders. It was more drama than we could've imagined, and it ended on such a dark note. Han was in carbon freeze. Luke lost his hand. Evil prevailed. And that again raised the stakes for the third movie.

It's okay to end Book II on a cliffhanger, but not Book I.

Book one is the history. The capabilities of these creatures is established in that story.

Background- There are two realms, and a Veil between them. The creatures from the other realm are immensely powerful, though their basic nature is the same as ours. They hit it off well when they first interact, but there is a civil war in their realm that pours into our realm.

And so, you have two factions- powerful beings that want to destroy our world, and powerful beings that want to save it. Book one establishes that the ultimate fate of our world does not rest in the hands of either, but in us. And so, for lack of a better word, we need to find a champion (A different phrase is used) who will stand up against these creatures, and fight back.

However, since they are so immensely powerful- shape shift, soar like lightening, throw trees like throwing darts, our kind is helpless unless they learn of another power that pre-existed both species, one that they can weild if they learn how. But it can only be weilded by our kind, not these super-beings.

And again, the theme is, will we forever be pawns to our ultimate doom, or will we wake up and become players. If our species chooses to remain pawns, then we and our world are toast, because at the End of book one, we learn that the evil alliance is quite capable of fulfilling its threat, which is to destroy our kind and world and take back the realm they lost.

So, in a sense, these beings coming into the camp is only revelatory, not because we figure out how powerful they are, but it's a behind the windows view of evil.

I have this kind of belief about pure evil, and I've stated it before. Pharoah has no friends, only slaves and slave drivers. It's a window into the heart of evil, and the foolish notion that we can exploit evil because we think it serves our purposes.

The banter between these (many levels) of malevolent creatures, is sometimes comical, because they have only malice to work with, and so their lives are motivated by who they have the most contempt for. But they will undermine each other for the sake of making themselves look superior. Yet, they seem to hold it together when they have a common enemy.

Think of someone promoted at work, who is so insecure and self-centered, they constantly try to make themselves look good at the expense of everyone underneath them, even if those underneath them are more competent. They always promote the most inferior underling, because a more capable one will make them look bad (in their twisted minds). And so, the employee with the best ideas always gets squashed.

I think people will enjoy seeing these parallels to real life.

[Sharon Mock]

Based on what you've said, I'd stick with the ending you've got for now. It sounds like it builds more momentum, without being an outright cliffhanger. If beta readers -- or even better, agents or editors -- suggest moving the end of book 2 to the beginning of book 3, that should be a pretty easy change to make.

[Nateskate]

Based on what you've said, I'd stick with the ending you've got for now. It sounds like it builds more momentum, without being an outright cliffhanger. If beta readers -- or even better, agents or editors -- suggest moving the end of book 2 to the beginning of book 3, that should be a pretty easy change to make.

Thanks for your advice. I've pondered that, and ultimately, it may be what I choose. So I appreciate your perspective.

Nate.

[Ronda]

I'm also a fantasy writer and glad to know there's a fantasy forum. I'm just getting into these forums.

Anyway, the book I'm just starting to send to pubishers has a very bitter-sweet ending, in that the antagonist was caught but had set something into motion that nearly killed one of the principals and changed her life forever. (I don't want to say too much about the ending at the moment.)

Whatever makes the ending feel like an ending - something is resolved even if there's a yes, but - should be the ending. Might be cool to save the revelation about the beasties for book 2.

One thing though - don't worry a whole lot about length, but DO go through your ms and cut out deadwood. Cut words, sentences, paragraphs or scenes that don't say/do anything and that don't move the plot forward.

I love your passion! You're obviously excited about your story, which is a good thing!

Warmly,
Ronda

[Nateskate]

I'm also a fantasy writer and glad to know there's a fantasy forum. I'm just getting into these forums.

Anyway, the book I'm just starting to send to pubishers has a very bitter-sweet ending, in that the antagonist was caught but had set something into motion that nearly killed one of the principals and changed her life forever. (I don't want to say too much about the ending at the moment.)

Whatever makes the ending feel like an ending - something is resolved even if there's a yes, but - should be the ending. Might be cool to save the revelation about the beasties for book 2.

One thing though - don't worry a whole lot about length, but DO go through your ms and cut out deadwood. Cut words, sentences, paragraphs or scenes that don't say/do anything and that don't move the plot forward.

I love your passion! You're obviously excited about your story, which is a good thing!

Warmly,
Ronda

Hi Ronda, welcome aboard. Thanks for your comments. I agree, it's great talking to other fantasy people here. And yes, I wear my heart on my sleave when it comes to this series. It has required a great deal of sacrifice to get this far, more than people will imagine, and it will take a great deal more to finish. Then again, there are a ton of people here who have sacrificed a great deal for their dream. But to a novice, I would suggest trying a quicker, easier, dream than taking on a grand fantasy.

In some ways it's beating me up.

[Mistook]

Hi Ronda, welcome aboard. Thanks for your comments. I agree, it's great talking to other fantasy people here. And yes, I wear my heart on my sleave when it comes to this series. It has required a great deal of sacrifice to get this far, more than people will imagine, and it will take a great deal more to finish. Then again, there are a ton of people here who have sacrificed a great deal for their dream. But to a novice, I would suggest trying a quicker, easier, dream than taking on a grand fantasy.

In some ways it's beating me up.


I can sympathize with the "beating me up" part. I've been working on what (I now see) will be a trilogy for well over a year. After about 15 months straight, getting no more than four hours of sleep a night, the exhaustion finally caught up with me.

I came to a point where my drive and inspiration went down to zero, I started falling asleep at work, and generally my health and disposition were terrible. It's taken a few months to catch up on my sleep, but I'm finally starting to feel the urge to write again.

[Nateskate]

I can sympathize with the "beating me up" part. I've been working on what (I now see) will be a trilogy for well over a year. After about 15 months straight, getting no more than four hours of sleep a night, the exhaustion finally caught up with me.

I came to a point where my drive and inspiration went down to zero, I started falling asleep at work, and generally my health and disposition were terrible. It's taken a few months to catch up on my sleep, but I'm finally starting to feel the urge to write again.

I understand why. Some of us have such a passion for this, it's more than "I can write, and I feel like publishing a story". But I'll be honest, I don't have a passion for everything equally. If this was all about getting published, I wouldn't have written this story. I think I'd have taken a safer, more logical route.

But I have to say, I have a passion about "this" story, almost dare I say, "like it's a call on my life", like Brad Pitt suddenly feeling a need to save a people, and change a part of the world, or Angelina Jolie throwing herself into saving war orphans.

Yet, I had no idea what this would cost me, because when I started, it was writing a story, and in my mind, an important story, but I never realized it was an all or nothing proposition. I've asked all the important people around me to be truthful, whether I'm wrong investing myself in this. I told them what I'd have to sacrifice. It's not as simple as, I'm wondering if it's "The book" or "time at the gym". It was because it became "This story", or some rather worthwhile adventures.

I've had passions about things before, and generally speaking this is as demanding as anything I've put my hand to. And it sounds to me you've really had a deep passion for your story as well. Heck, I know others have been there and done that, though I think out of all the writers in the world, that isn't the majority.

[Mistook]

I understand why. Some of us have such a passion for this, it's more than "I can write, and I feel like publishing a story". But I'll be honest, I don't have a passion for everything equally. If this was all about getting published, I wouldn't have written this story. I think I'd have taken a safer, more logical route.

But I have to say, I have a passion about "this" story, almost dare I say, "like it's a call on my life", like Brad Pitt suddenly feeling a need to save a people, and change a part of the world, or Angelina Jolie throwing herself into saving war orphans.

Yet, I had no idea what this would cost me, because when I started, it was writing a story, and in my mind, an important story, but I never realized it was an all or nothing proposition. I've asked all the important people around me to be truthful, whether I'm wrong investing myself in this. I told them what I'd have to sacrifice. It's not as simple as, I'm wondering if it's "The book" or "time at the gym". It was because it became "This story", or some rather worthwhile adventures.

I've had passions about things before, and generally speaking this is as demanding as anything I've put my hand to. And it sounds to me you've really had a deep passion for your story as well. Heck, I know others have been there and done that, though I think out of all the writers in the world, that isn't the majority.

I'd say we're in the same boat. If I could just forget this story, I'd probably be able to take what I've learned and write a few good, marketable novels. But to me, this is "THE story." It's the one only I can tell. The advice about following the lead of other authors who write similar stories doesn't apply well at all, because this particular tale doesn't lend itself to any established genre, and as far as I have been able to ascertain, there are no similar stories.

The plot revolves around the myth and mystery of rock music. Not the obvious stories of godlike performers who overdose on drugs, or the celebration of rebels trashing motel rooms, but more at the conspiracy side of rock - The way we like to think Elvis is still alive, the secret messages people find in Beatle songs, the idea of an "underground" of punk musicians battling the evil empire of the record industry, Occult symbolism in heavy metal, New Age spiritualism in more avant garde music. And of course you have your stalkers, your crazy Manson types, and your creepy papparazzi hanging around the edges.

In a way, that whole day and age of pop music having enough depth to really stir the imagination is gone and being forgotten, but in my day, listening to albums and pondering their meaning was almost a religion. There was a real cult surrounding rock music, and it overlapped with other cultural obesssions. Every musician I knew was a comic book geek, for example, so in youth that dream of being a superhero morphed into a rock-star dream later on. But the two are related, though I've never seen anybody draw the connections.

[Ronda]

I can relate to things changing and books beating you up. My novel started as a short story and - well - it got away from me, and now it's a multi-book series.

Don't sacrifice your dream, but I'd suggest you be willing to work on other things. For example, I started writing a newspaper column and some non-fiction articles in an area of expertise (massage and stress relief), so when I send out a proposal to get my first book published, I have a number of credits to my name, which lends credibility.

Keep the dream alive and well!
Warmly,
Ronda

[daoine]

My second novel started life as a Fantasy, and then as I started researching and found more and more scientific explanations for my situations, it moved to Science Fiction-Fantasy (a title I don't really like using as I detest the way these two genres are always lumped together in libraries and bookstores, although I love reading both). Now I'm starting to think about sifted out the Fantasy elements and turning it into pure SF, and then using the Fantasy to write a new book with all the exciting Fantasy trimmings that I love.

I know what you mean about stories running away from you. This novel was originally a stand alone. Now I have 6 prequels - all pure SF, so more reason for me to extract the Fantasy from the first one.


I'd say we're in the same boat. If I could just forget this story, I'd probably be able to take what I've learned and write a few good, marketable novels. But to me, this is "THE story." It's the one only I can tell. The advice about following the lead of other authors who write similar stories doesn't apply well at all, because this particular tale doesn't lend itself to any established genre, and as far as I have been able to ascertain, there are no similar stories.

The plot revolves around the myth and mystery of rock music. Not the obvious stories of godlike performers who overdose on drugs, or the celebration of rebels trashing motel rooms, but more at the conspiracy side of rock - The way we like to think Elvis is still alive, the secret messages people find in Beatle songs, the idea of an "underground" of punk musicians battling the evil empire of the record industry, Occult symbolism in heavy metal, New Age spiritualism in more avant garde music. And of course you have your stalkers, your crazy Manson types, and your creepy papparazzi hanging around the edges.

In a way, that whole day and age of pop music having enough depth to really stir the imagination is gone and being forgotten, but in my day, listening to albums and pondering their meaning was almost a religion. There was a real cult surrounding rock music, and it overlapped with other cultural obesssions. Every musician I knew was a comic book geek, for example, so in youth that dream of being a superhero morphed into a rock-star dream later on. But the two are related, though I've never seen anybody draw the connections.

Mistook, have you read "The Ground Beneath Her Feet" by Salman Rushdie? It contains a lot of mythology and mysticism surrounding rock music and is a very clever story. Your take on this subject sounds very interesting.

[Lenora Rose]

I'd say we're in the same boat. If I could just forget this story, I'd probably be able to take what I've learned and write a few good, marketable novels. But to me, this is "THE story." It's the one only I can tell. The advice about following the lead of other authors who write similar stories doesn't apply well at all, because this particular tale doesn't lend itself to any established genre, and as far as I have been able to ascertain, there are no similar stories.

I will say your story sounds like a good take. I've read a fair number of fiction pieces related to rock, but few looking at quite the aspect you've chosen.

However, I will say (And this is not discouragement but is meant for reassurance), that there are liable to be aspects of the plot or characters that relate to other stories, even if your theme and idea don't. Is the plot following a mystery? A road trip? A circle of friends? A few generations of family or the various owners of a particular guitar?

Only you can tell this story, but I suspect there are still lessons you can borrow from here and there.

As to THE Story:

I have two novels I've lived with for a long time that are stories only I can tell, that I am hugely passionate about, that are my two big stores...

... but besides those two, I have cool ideas for two or three unwritten novels (And there will certainly be more ideas as the years pass), and I've gone so far as to write rough drafts and fragments of five or so others while waiting for a chance to edit / rewrite *the* books. (Plus some short stories, but not many of those). More, I sometimes suspect some of the other books will be better written. In fact, I hope so, as some of them will be written after these books get loosed into the wild, and I'd better be constantly stretching and trying to improve.

I love those two stories in a very particular way. But I like the others, too. You may have only one spouse or one best friend, but that doesn't make the rest of the people you care for unloved, or unwanted, or unneeded.

I don't think anyone really has only one story in them. That may be all they really finish, or all they publish, for one reason or another, but I always suspect there was more being drafted in the mind of one-book authors.

Even once they're published (If I am so lucky) I will probably never admit which two are *the* books, either.

[Nateskate]

I'd say we're in the same boat. If I could just forget this story, I'd probably be able to take what I've learned and write a few good, marketable novels. But to me, this is "THE story." It's the one only I can tell. The advice about following the lead of other authors who write similar stories doesn't apply well at all, because this particular tale doesn't lend itself to any established genre, and as far as I have been able to ascertain, there are no similar stories.

The plot revolves around the myth and mystery of rock music. Not the obvious stories of godlike performers who overdose on drugs, or the celebration of rebels trashing motel rooms, but more at the conspiracy side of rock - The way we like to think Elvis is still alive, the secret messages people find in Beatle songs, the idea of an "underground" of punk musicians battling the evil empire of the record industry, Occult symbolism in heavy metal, New Age spiritualism in more avant garde music. And of course you have your stalkers, your crazy Manson types, and your creepy papparazzi hanging around the edges.

In a way, that whole day and age of pop music having enough depth to really stir the imagination is gone and being forgotten, but in my day, listening to albums and pondering their meaning was almost a religion. There was a real cult surrounding rock music, and it overlapped with other cultural obesssions. Every musician I knew was a comic book geek, for example, so in youth that dream of being a superhero morphed into a rock-star dream later on. But the two are related, though I've never seen anybody draw the connections.

It is a rather engaging storyline if you ask me. Just that little you told me has me intrigued.

[Nateskate]

"Yaba Daba Do." No, I'm not turning into Yogi Bear, but I figured I'd avoid cursing on line, and come up with a little idiotic way to vent.

I hate it when I post something long, and get, "The Page Cannot Be Displayed," and wind up losing the entire content of my post, especially a long one.

[Mistook]

It is a rather engaging storyline if you ask me. Just that little you told me has me intrigued.


The plot follows three musicians. One is outrageously famous and can't escape his fame. The second is completely unknown and can't escape his obscurity. The third is a woman, exactly in the middle. She's had a few hits and enjoys a solid career without the stress of mega-fame.

The obscure musician lives in a cursed town. The curse obliterates fame, and because he was born there, he can never become a celebrity. But the curse also has the effect of renduring celebs un-famous when they venture into city limits. The outrageously famous musician comes there to hide from his persecutors, and nobody recognizes him.

The fem pop star is also a psychic who is drawn to the cursed town by visions of the obscure musician. He is famous to her alone, but when she arrives in town, she discovers that she is not recognized at all by him.

Meanwhile, an evil market research firm is spying on the obscure musician. They are stealing his (and his peers') inspirations and selling them to the industry. This is a nationwide operation, but they prize their base in the cursed town because the artists there are forever captive.

The mega-famous musician is being forced by the industry to use ideas stolen from the obsure guy. He refuses, and part of his mission in the cursed town is to expose the spy operation. For this reason they want him dead.

The fem musician has no idea about the spy ring, but they know about her. She is considered a threat, because she might possibly be able to help the obscure guy break the curse and become famous in his own right. For this reason, the evil spy ring wants her dead as well.

This is all tied together by a private detective from Chicago, who uncovers all these conspiracies by accident, and spends most of her time fighting the spies to keep the musicians alive.

That's about as un-convoluted a description as I can give. Of course the lyrics of all three musicians come into play. Each one gives voice to their secrets through cryptic lyrics which goes right over the heads of the general public.

[Nateskate]

The plot follows three musicians. One is outrageously famous and can't escape his fame. The second is completely unknown and can't escape his obscurity. The third is a woman, exactly in the middle. She's had a few hits and enjoys a solid career without the stress of mega-fame.

The obscure musician lives in a cursed town. The curse obliterates fame, and because he was born there, he can never become a celebrity. But the curse also has the effect of renduring celebs un-famous when they venture into city limits. The outrageously famous musician comes there to hide from his persecutors, and nobody recognizes him.

The fem pop star is also a psychic who is drawn to the cursed town by visions of the obscure musician. He is famous to her alone, but when she arrives in town, she discovers that she is not recognized at all by him.

Meanwhile, an evil market research firm is spying on the obscure musician. They are stealing his (and his peers') inspirations and selling them to the industry. This is a nationwide operation, but they prize their base in the cursed town because the artists there are forever captive.

The mega-famous musician is being forced by the industry to use ideas stolen from the obsure guy. He refuses, and part of his mission in the cursed town is to expose the spy operation. For this reason they want him dead.

The fem musician has no idea about the spy ring, but they know about her. She is considered a threat, because she might possibly be able to help the obscure guy break the curse and become famous in his own right. For this reason, the evil spy ring wants her dead as well.

This is all tied together by a private detective from Chicago, who uncovers all these conspiracies by accident, and spends most of her time fighting the spies to keep the musicians alive.

That's about as un-convoluted a description as I can give. Of course the lyrics of all three musicians come into play. Each one gives voice to their secrets through cryptic lyrics which goes right over the heads of the general public.

Wow, I must say you have a very creative mind, and you are an "ideas" person. If you can get all that down on the pages, there should be an audience for it. Is this "present day" or a period fantasy? (i.e- the Woodstock era)

[Mistook]

Wow, I must say you have a very creative mind, and you are an "ideas" person. If you can get all that down on the pages, there should be an audience for it. Is this "present day" or a period fantasy? (i.e- the Woodstock era)

Thanks :)

It's set in the early 90's, though homage is paid to styles of rock from the 50's on through. The backdrop to everything is this idea that the days of the rock band are ending. There was a kind of "last gasp" of real band rock on the radio in the 90's, which gave way to the faux artists we have today - boy bands, Brittney clones, and American Idols.

In part, this story is a myth to explain that paradigm shift. You asked in another thread about "importance" of our work. To me, I feel like this story can be a way to "pass the torch" to future generations who may not realize what the world was like before everything became fake.

Of course, that's a pretty biased view, though. It serves to glorify me and my kind, so why wouldn't I think of it as important. ;)