M/M Romance: can anyone shed some light on this genre?

I'm not a big ol' lesbian but Jack and Ianto? NOM NOM NOM. Especially loved when someone asked Ianto what Jack was like in bed and he raised his eyebrows and said, "Avant-garde."

Right, back to the topic.

I am famed for my insanely fangirlish behaviour when it comes to thethinker42's writing and she recently wrote a novel called Rules of Engagement. I can say that much as she documented its progress on her blog.

It was the first m/m I'd ever read - piecemeal, as the bitch writes out of sequence, but thankfully I now have a copy of the complete manuscript on my laptop so yay!

Anyway, as part of her research she (okay, we) read some m/m eBooks. I won't mention the authors' name but they were just fuckawful. Pardon the pun.

They were more like chicks with dicks. They had women's reactions. A female interpretation of what a man with a male lover would be. RoE is far superior. Sure, it's sexy but there's romance too.

Not being a man I can't say how accurate the characters' masculinity is but it's a damn sight better than anything else I've read since.

What's the appeal? In all honesty, the same as f/f would be for a man I guess. Two good-looking guys together is just hot. Maybe that's my kink, but it's also my opinion.

I don't like it when two guys together act too flowery and Mills-and-Boon though. Sure, guys can feel the romance and the love, but not in the same way a woman would. I want to see two men interact in a masculine way, not as if they were, as I said earlier, chicks with dicks.

If I want the Bangkok Ladyboys I'll go to Thailand, thanks.

Oh, and great thread by the way.

Oh, and the correct term for this literary genre is bromance.

The timing of this thread is amusing. Just last week I purchased and read my first m/m romance e-book from Samhain. Why? Because I like romances, and I saw a good review of this title over at the Dear Author blog. They posted a snippet, I liked the voice, the story sounded good, so why not?

It was a great read. Hot sex, a good story, and two very believably male heroes. And I have to agree with scarletpeaches in that two hot guys together is...well, hot. It's not everyone's thing. Hetero romance isn't everyone's thing. High fantasy isn't everyone's thing.

But I am glad to see it emerging from the dark recesses of slash fiction, and finding a more mainstream market.

Kitty Pryde said:

But why are two guy characters together bad inherently?

Click to expand...

It's not inherently bad except to homophobes. Just most men are grossed out by it, as are some women.

Two: what guy do you know who reads lesbian romance? I don't know ANYONE who reads lesbian romance, let alone any guys. I can only think of a very few lesbian novels in the first place.

Click to expand...

They meant men watching lesbian porn, not men reading lesbian romance novels!

Come on now, have you ever seen any so-called "lesbian porn"? (You don't have to answer that, it was rhetorical.)

I'll translate:

Lesbian porn= two or more women doing stuff that straight guys find hot and want to watch but real lesbians probably rarely do and don't often want to watch.

10er said:

Oh. No.
I hoped this "genre" would stay forever confined in the dark caverns of anime and game slash-fanfiction. >_>
That's also where I believe "recent acceptance and popularity" to come from, by the way.

Seriously though: what's to understand concerning appeal? Do you think it's fundamentally different from guys digging lesbian romance? (and most do, right?)

Click to expand...

I do think it's fundamentally different from the heterosexual male fixation on "lesbian romance (by which I assume you mean sex)". The way "lesbians" are sexualized and fetishized by straight men is more about fantasy, objectification and male desire than about the actual feelings those two women experience in their relationship or sexual pairing.

I believe the straight female interest in gay male romance, on the other hand, is more about seeing portrayals of men falling in love. In most romances, part of the payoff for the female reader is seeing the man experience and admit to real emotional attachment to the female heroine in a way that makes him vulnerable - many straight women may never have this experience in their own love lives. And I think the advent of male/male romance provides a nice antidote to the traditional aggressively masculine romance hero wooing the delicate feminine heroine, perhaps especially for women who, like me, are turned off by macho gender norms.

Growing up, my hands-down favorite "romance" was between Vanyel and Tylendel/Stephen in Mercedes Lackey's Last Herald Mage trilogy. There was always something so appealing about reading about men whose emotional lives were just as much a primary concern as their professional lives. I didn't care that I couldn't "place" myself in the feet of a female love object - in fact, I preferred feeling like I was witnessing something beautiful that I myself would never necessarily experience. Perhaps that's my own form of voyeurism, but I feel it's more about my fascination with the love than a purile interest in teh sexay bits. And as an adult, reading about men who can be emotionally open with each other helps me remember that misogyinistc gender norms that hurt me can hurt men just as much and that falling in love is a fundamentally human experience, not just a heterosexual one.

Now I appreciate that many of these characters might actually react more like straight women than like gay men, but I doubt that's always true. And besides, I've had some pretty heartrending conversations with my best friend about his love life, so I don't think all of these characters are totally off the mark. I'm not sure I still love Lackey's work, but I think my girlish affection for those characters helped make me more open-minded about love.

Wow, that turned into quite a rant. I happen to love it when authors include homosexual relationships in their work. I've got a lesbian couple in my WIP, in fact.

SPMiller said:

I don't dig lesbian romance. I am, however, okay with lesbian porn

Um. Gay romance is extremely popular with e-publishers. Lesbian romance, not so much. Calling the romancedivas girls...

Click to expand...

Yeah.

This is not a 'new' genre at all. In fact a big portion of the epublishing market in erotic romance is focused around m/m, m/f/m, and m/m/f. if you look at the best seller lists at Ellora's Cave, Samhain and any of the other of the top 5 erotic romance epubs, you'll see m/m title up there more often than not. There is good money in it if you can do it right.

As to the why of it? You got me. I'd rather read, and watch, girl-on-girl. But I know I'm in the minority. There are a number of discussions regarding this subject (the genre, the appeal, and why women are into it, but for the most part not into anything that involves more than one woman) on Romance Divas. You have to be a member there to read posts, and the discussion is in the Steamy Section if you're interested.

Men certainly read lesbian erotica, and also watch visual stuff that is more 'chaste romance' like shoujo-ai anime. 'Romance novels' per se are a mostly female phenomenon, but there are straight guys here on AW who write straight romance novels and I've also met gay guys who write gay romance novels.

Me, I am a woman who is a big fan of gay erotic romance; I read straight romance but I always prefer m/m when I can get it. I do think it's basically the same reason straight men like lesbian porn: I have no attraction to females, no real interest in female characters, and when there are two attractive male characters in a story it's like 2 for the price of one compared to a straight romance. Also I personally don't like alpha males and good luck finding a straight romance that isn't about an alpha male. *eyeroll*

Kitty Pryde said:

So...straight dudes like "lesbian porn" videos and straight chicks like "gay romance" novels? I think there's some universal truth about the nature of humankind lurking in that assertion, but I'm not sure what it is.

Click to expand...

That romance and porn are escapist fantasies that have nothing to do with reality?

aquacat said:

In most romances, part of the payoff for the female reader is seeing the man experience and admit to real emotional attachment to the female heroine in a way that makes him vulnerable - many straight women may never have this experience in their own love lives.

Click to expand...

Oh, this is pretty enlightening.
What more obvious way to show a man's vulnerability than having him paired with another man, who is in much less danger of falling into a stereotypical "strong aggressive woos weak passive" scenario.
That being said: one side of the homo-pair is always in danger of being the chick with the dick, sadly.
What I'm wondering is whether the majority of readers prefers it this way or whether they'd like the (I think) more realistic way.

Kitty Pryde said:

Your Sarcasm: It Is Invisible On The Internets!

Click to expand...

It's okay. I am quite comfortable with being the misunderstood genius.

Its not really a new thing (it's pretty much the only genre I write, and women have been writing it sonce the 11th century) it is new for it to get mainstream romance genre publicity. Which is a great development.

10er said:

That being said: one side of the homo-pair is always in danger of being the chick with the dick, sadly.

Click to expand...

If you're a sloppy writer with no imagination or knowledge of actual, working gay male relationships, sure. But falling into bad stereotypes is surely a risk for all writers, regardless of the subject, no?

What I'm wondering is whether the majority of readers prefers it this way or whether they'd like the (I think) more realistic way.

Click to expand...

What is this "more realistic way" you speak of? It sounds to me like you're making a bad assumption that there's a singular, "realistic" form that all gay relationships follow.

Besides, while I wouldn't argue that romance is a genre that is completely separate from reality, it isn't realism, either.

scarletpeaches said:

Oh, and the correct term for this literary genre is bromance.

Click to expand...

No, a bromance specifically refers to male/male relationships that never turn physical, often without any physical attraction between them. Examples include Dante and Virgil in the first two Canticles of the Divine Comedy, Don Quixote and Sancho Panza in Don Quixote and the two main characters in The Killer. A lot of bromances toe the line and almost become romances.

Overt male on male romance has always been a bit of a weird issue. Although the Iliad has a pretty intense relationship between Patroclus and Achilles (Patroclus being the twink), you never actually see anything going on between the two characters. It's clear they are deeply in love with each other though, Achilles' rage when Patroclus is killed is testament to that.

10er said:

Oh, this is pretty enlightening.
What I'm wondering is whether the majority of readers prefers it this way or whether they'd like the (I think) more realistic way.

Click to expand...

Trust me, romance readers are not in it for realism.

SPMiller has it right. These books, like porn, are escapist fantasy.

10er said:

No, I'm talking about the emotional side of things. As you wrote in your post further up.

Click to expand...

In which case I'd say that applies to f/f and m/f as well.

Kurtz said:

No, a bromance specifically refers to male/male relationships that never turn physical, often without any physical attraction between them. Examples include Dante and Virgil in the first two Canticles of the Divine Comedy, Don Quixote and Sancho Panza in Don Quixote and the two main characters in The Killer. A lot of bromances toe the line and almost become romances.

Overt male on male romance has always been a bit of a weird issue. Although the Iliad has a pretty intense relationship between Patroclus and Achilles (Patroclus being the twink), you never actually see anything going on between the two characters. It's clear they are deeply in love with each other though, Achilles' rage when Patroclus is killed is testament to that.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, but I know what a bromance is and yes, I've read The Iliad.

I was taking the piss, because I like the word.

scarletpeaches said:

In which case I'd say that applies to f/f and m/f as well.

Click to expand...

Uh. Now you lost me.

Look, to clarify, my main chain of logic here is:

1) Many women's lack of insight into the male mind is appalling IMHO.
2) Many women write about m/m romance (many, compared to the opposite case)
3) Result: the danger of subpar product is above that of most other genres.

Edit: any m/f romance always has the chance of at least getting one side of the relationship right.

10er said:

Uh. Now you lost me.

Look, to clarify, my main chain of logic here is:

1) Many women's lack of insight into the male mind is appalling IMHO.
2) Many women write about m/m romance (many, compared to the opposite case)
3) Result: the danger of subpar product is above that of most other genres.

Edit: any m/f romance always has the chance of at least getting one side of the relationship right.

Click to expand...

And only serial killers can write about serial killers.

I was referring to the notion that one half of a m/m pairing is alpha and the other is more 'female'.

If you replace that with dom/sub or alpha/beta or taking the lead/following, that could apply to any pairing.

jennontheisland said:

And only serial killers can write about serial killers.

Click to expand...

Argh! Notice how I didn't say it can't be done or even that it's a very difficult task. I just believe the discrepancy in this particular genre between volume of works and actual talent is unusually big.
I don't read that many books about serial killers, but quite possibly, an expert on the subject who is also an avid reader could tell you it's mostly a load of crap.
I daresay I am an "expert" on being male though, by virtue of existence.

scarletpeaches said:

I was referring to the notion that one half of a m/m pairing is alpha and the other is more 'female'.

If you replace that with dom/sub or alpha/beta or taking the lead/following, that could apply to any pairing.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. I'm just opposed to the male body + female mind syndrome.

Kitty Pryde said:

So apparently a new thing in the romance novel genre is 'm/m'. For those of you who aren't avid fanficcers, m/m means male/male, aka romance between two guys. It's almost all written by women (both in romance-novel-land and in fanfic-land). The audience is primarily women. There's an article here, and a good blog post here. Both are PG-rated.

My question is, why does this intrigue women so much? Also, why aren't guys writing it/reading it? I have read some E. Lynn Harris (a dude, with a conveniently asexual name) m/m, and it was pretty decent, though romance isn't my favorite genre. The article mentions Brokeback Mountain (movie) as a test case that showed that women really like this sort of story. I think it's pretty neat.

Has anybody read the books they mention, "False Colors" and "Transgressions"? The latter appears to be based on the biblical David and Jonathan...maybe this trend is older than I figured Anybody read any others in a similar vein?

Anyways, I'm not really interested in hearing why anyone wouldn't care to read m/m, just looking to understand its appeal and recent popularity/acceptance. I posted this in Novels because I figure there are folks who read romance or 'gay novels' but don't frequent the romance forum.

-Sarah, a big ole lesbian who really likes watching Jack and Ianto kiss on Torchwood

Click to expand...

Well, I just don't read romance normally. Not my bag.

But I personally have no problem with m/m romance and if one presented itself to me well written, I would read it.

The thing is, I would be more likely to read a m/m novel with romance as an element, but not as the main element. It's not the m/m part I have an issue with.

I recently began trying to find a home for a short story with a m/m romance element set in Tehran, but it's certainly not romance.

I'm not sure about the appeal. Like I said, I could give a care what sexual orientation you are. That's not what's going to attract me to a book. I think it's selling people short to identify them by their sexuality in a 2-dimensional way. Any human being is much more dynamic than that, and one's entire life isn't a martyrdom to their sexual preference. There are intimate facets of a person's life that are extremely interesting, if one only looks under the surface.

If an author can introduce me to those facets, they've got my attention. m/m romance included.

Slash writers are like anything else. Some of it's gold, most of it's garbage. Fanfiction has a ton of them, and yes they're mostly women, but IMO the thing that's interesting with Fanfic slash is that usually both of the characters involved are alphas in some degree. They take inferred looks and touches and make them into something a few degrees further off friendship.


There's no starting point for original fiction other than zero, which means the people doing the writing start fresh. Most, notice I didn't say all, romance writers are used to the M/F formula, so it's natural for them to make one partner feminized and one masculine. The problem, if you've ever read any really bad slash-fic you'll know what I mean, is with plausibility. Some of the things described aren't physically possible in a M/M pairing.

10er said:

Uh. Now you lost me.

Look, to clarify, my main chain of logic here is:

1) Many women's lack of insight into the male mind is appalling IMHO.

Click to expand...

Haha, if you think that's true, try being a woman and reading the female characters that most men write. Appalling doesn't even come close to what they are.

In any case, I don't think we're necessarily just talking about slash here - I'm talking about m/m romances in novels more generally.

aquacat said:

Haha, if you think that's true, try being a woman and reading the female characters that most men write. Appalling doesn't even come close to what they are.

In any case, I don't think we're necessarily just talking about slash here - I'm talking about m/m romances in novels more generally.

Click to expand...

That was my first thought.