Outlines - advice please.

icerose · Jun 9, 2009

Let me start out with THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT OUTLINING VS. ORGANIC. I do not want this thread to even go there. This is strictly about outlining, anything outside that and I will ask a mod to split off into a derail thread.

Okay, now that it's out of the way.

I have story ideas piling up at the door chanting "Write me, write me." I'm only getting out about 3-4 scripts a year and another 2 novels. I would really like to get more done a year. I have well over 200 ideas and they're driving me nuts.

The slowest part in my writing is figuring out what's going to happen next.

I want to eliminate that.

I have fought against outlines my entire life. School presented them as time wasters that were simply formalities they'd flunk you over if you didn't want to do them.

I HATE bubble graphs and spider graphs. They are so chaotic they drive me nuts. Likewise I hate bulleted, numbered, and roman numeral lists they feel far too formal. I generally do a paragraph to a page of basic summary of story and characters already, but I'd like to really lay it out so the story can fly by faster.

Advice? Techniques? How do you outline?

drachin8 · Jun 9, 2009

For my current WIP, I just wrote a sentence or two about each scene I wanted and color-tagged them according to whose POV it would be in, then put them in the order I wanted. This allowed me to easily edit to add more scenes in and see where things were going. Definitely made writing easier since I knew what my next scene was likely to be. About halfway through my first draft, I revisited my "outline" and edited it for the way things had changed so the future scenes better reflected where things were going. I also found as I wrote that occasionally a new scene would pop instantly into my brain, so I'd go ahead and write it and then pop it into the outline.

I didn't split my scenes into chapters until I hit that specific group of scenes, and then I'd check over my outline to see which scene looked like a good chapter ender.

It was overall pretty danged helpful, and it even helped me estimate my word count (because I averaged about 700 words per scene at the time of outline creation).

-Michelle

Claudia Gray · Jun 9, 2009

There's no wrong or right way to outline -- just methods that work for you and methods that don't.

I break down chapter by chapter, regardless of what I'm working on; I may leave it at that, or go farther and break it down scene by scene. I include information on the development of each main emotional arc, the main plot and any important subplots. If I think of a good bit of dialogue/strong visual/etc., I toss that in as well. These are just blocks of text. That works fine for me. It would be too structured for some, not structured enough for others.

Aggy B. · Jun 9, 2009

Hmm. I outline the "beats" of the story.

- MC receives a mysterious letter.
- MC finds first clue.
- MC finds second clue.

Then I start breaking it up into chapters and outlining the beats of each chapter.

- MC is having a nice cup of tea.
- Courier delivers a letter.
- MC reads letter and discovers Mystery!

And so on. When I have problems figuring out which beat should come first, second, third, etc. I use index cards to help me shuffle things around. Each beat gets a card, rearrange 'til they make sense.

I prefer outlining this way to writing summaries because it gives me a little more flex room. I can keep track of what needs to happen but I don't have as much of a preconceived idea about how it should happen.

The Lonely One · Jun 9, 2009

*looks at folded napkins and tissues with scribbles and stick figure drawings.

Yeah. I'm not going to try to give advice on this. But I will take notes...

narnia · Jun 9, 2009

I keep a what I call timeline log for each chapter, and update it as necessary. It keeps the confusion at bay ...

For each chapter I have:
Summary: of chapter
Time: in story, i.e. pre-surgery, end of October
Pages:
Dependencies: if x changes here, y must change there
Characters: who appears in chapter
Notes:

I also have a fact file where I keep notes on various things such as character info, location info, etc. Each chapter is a separate file and if need be I can interchange events in the timeline, add people, etc.

The last piece is a one page start-to-end of events that I create chapters from and plug in where they go. My chapters do not have numbers, I title them using the 'main event' in the storyline so I know where to put things.

Hope that helps some!
:Sun:

icerose · Jun 9, 2009

Yeah, I'm not afraid of doing it wrong, I'm just trying to find something that works for me. I have problems with length, ending the story too quickly, and getting stuck on the "What's going to happen next." I'm convinced that if I stop being prejudice against outlines (thanks to my old English teachers, I appreciate the hate of outlines you've instilled in me) I think they could be an amazing tool for me.

By all means, keep the suggestions coming.

Brainstorming, how do you come up with your complete novel before you start, even if it changes later which is fine, how do you bring it into cohesive thought before hand. Mine is a seat of the pants sort of thing and I'm really wanting to step back from that. Too many pauses and delays and think sessions when I should be writing.

ChristineR · Jun 9, 2009

I think spreadsheets are pretty good--you can have subtopics, like in a proper outline, and you can assign column values to POV, time, place, scene notes, etc. You can also color code if it helps you.

For fiction I don't know that you really need subtopics with Roman numerals anyhow. The logical order is the order you plan to put your scenes in, which is usually chronological.

I have a column for "main points" or "purpose of scene" or "plot beats," whatever you want to call it. If it was a really complicated scene where you wanted a breakdown by topic and subtopic, then you could put a little outline in your spreadsheet cell or link it to a text document anyhow.

Calla Lily · Jun 9, 2009

Randy Ingermanson's Snowflake Method. I swear by it. I don't do all the steps anymore, but when I first tried outlining it was just what I needed.

icerose · Jun 9, 2009

callalily61 said:
Randy Ingermanson's Snowflake Method. I swear by it. I don't do all the steps anymore, but when I first tried outlining it was just what I needed.

Can you give a link or something? Outlining is like the deep end of the ocean to a little kid. It's big, it's new, and there's no telling what's inside. :e2paperba

Calla Lily · Jun 9, 2009

I'm at work, icerose, and we have mountainous firewalls. Google "Ingermanson snowflake" in quotes and it should pop right up.

Mr Flibble · Jun 9, 2009

callalily61 said:
Randy Ingermanson's Snowflake Method. I swear by it. I don't do all the steps anymore, but when I first tried outlining it was just what I needed.

I really like that one too - as a 'no outline unless I'm really bloody stuck' kinda gal, I love that you can use it to do as little or as in depth as you care to go. It's really helped me see the way forwards more than once.

Aggy B. · Jun 9, 2009

Brainstorming, how do you come up with your complete novel before you start, even if it changes later which is fine, how do you bring it into cohesive thought before hand.

That's a bit harder. I start with my scenario (boy meets girl) and then I figure out where I think I might like to see it end. (girl dies OR they live happily ever after OR whatever.) This works for me because I write stories/novels I would like to read.

Once I have an idea of where it might end I can start figuring out how to get from the beginning to the end. There are several ways I work out the "bones" of the middle.

Sometimes I can just come up with the beats of the story. A little shuffling and it all adds up.

Sometimes I write little mini-chapters with the characters, try things out. They let me know really quickly whether those beats will create a cohesive story.

Creating that start to finish story, especially something that's novel length, takes practice. My earlier attempts tended to be too short or sprawl so wide they were just way too long for a single book. But after a while it gets easier.

ink wench · Jun 9, 2009

My outline is a lot like a synopsis, only very detailed in parts and very vague in others. I start with the premise, then just stick in the things I know have to happen to get from A to Z. As I write those down, I have to start thinking about how B leads to J, and so on. I start filling those pieces in and adjusting as needed. Usually, my ending reads something like "the big battle and MC kills the catches the bad guy." I tend to leave the endings more open because stuff happens as I write that changes it.

I'd say try a few methods and see what works for you. Good luck!

scarletpeaches · Jun 9, 2009

Okay, I'm a pantser, blah blah, staying out of this thread for the most part but:

icerose said:
...I'm only getting out about 3-4 scripts a year and another 2 novels. I would really like to get more done a year. I have well over 200 ideas and they're driving me nuts....

Only? You are only getting four scripts and two novels done a year?

:Jaw:

icerose · Jun 9, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Okay, I'm a pantser, blah blah, staying out of this thread for the most part but:

Only? You are only getting four scripts and two novels done a year?

Yeah, then there's my paid work which so far I've only done 9 script total rewrites this year, that was from January to April. It got a little hairy there and I'm off to a slower start. So far I've only done two new script of my own and one novel, so I'm feeling like "Dang, I'm halfway through the year and I'm not even remotely up to my slow quota.

Gosh I feel like such a slacker.

Please note I am overall a very fast writer. I have done one script for hire, it was due in 9 days from conception to polished turn in, I had 9 freakin' days to do it. My first feature script was 120 pages in 6 days and I've written novels in 30 days before. So you can see a lot of gaps in my productivity when you put it in that kind of perspective.

scarletpeaches · Jun 9, 2009

No, I mean, "ONLY???" as in, "I'd love to only write two novels a year!"

I know - I rarely compliment people. I'm not very good at it.

DMarie84 · Jun 9, 2009

My outlines just go by chapter. I fill in what I think should happen in that chapter and use it as a loose guideline, mainly so I don't go rambling and waffling all over the place. However, I find that I don't always stick to it and aspects of the chapters will change or chapters will combine. It's very similar to how Ink Wench does it (at least that sounds like how I do outlines).

narnia · Jun 9, 2009

icerose said:
Brainstorming, how do you come up with your complete novel before you start, even if it changes later which is fine, how do you bring it into cohesive thought before hand. Mine is a seat of the pants sort of thing and I'm really wanting to step back from that. Too many pauses and delays and think sessions when I should be writing.

Hmm, well, I start with an idea which then becomes start here and end there. To figure out the "in between" I use many many years of linear programming experience. Now, before you laugh, it really does work. Hopefully any programmers out there will agree to some extent.

Programming (at my job) involves a request to get from point A to point B. How I get there is for me to figure out. So I look at what I have at hand, and say, ok, I can do this, but if I do this will happen so I need to do that first, or that later, and sometimes the path will say I need some new element.

So I scope out my specs on paper using if-then-else types of scenarios, both overarching and nested.

IF Sally meets John today then she will fall in love with Joe
THEN it will rain tomorrow
ELSE IF Sally meets Joe tomorrow she will fall in love with John
THEN there will be a sale at Macy*s
ELSE she will never fall in love

I know, looks kinda dumb on paper but it really works for me and I know that may be because I do this for a living but hey, you never know!

It's kind of like an outline but not quite, and when you get it all down you can pick the possibilities that work best and discard/keep whatever you want.

Hope that helps ....

aadams73 · Jun 9, 2009

Whiteboard and colored Post-its. You can color code by subplot or POV. This also gives you heaps of freedom to move things around and change as needed.

Charlie Horse · Jun 9, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Okay, I'm a pantser, blah blah, staying out of this thread for the most part but:

Only? You are only getting four scripts and two novels done a year?

That was my first thought. If I was writing four scripts and two novels a year I don't think I'd be worrying much about increasing my productivity. Now I feel all slow and stupid.

ORION · Jun 9, 2009

My outlines are kind of different. I have completely empty manuscript templates - title - 50 chapters- page numbers etc but it's empty. When I have an idea or am starting a first draft I pick a title and then put one or two sentences in each chapter. sometimes I skip several if I know what needs to happen half way thru- many times I'll write a scene I know will be in the book or the first and last chapters. When I work on it I "save as" every day so I can go back and see the progress or go back and take a different direction.
Hope that helps

ORION · Jun 9, 2009

oh and my next novel after LOTTERY took me over two years to write so you see pretty productive to me lol!!

CaroGirl · Jun 9, 2009

ORION said:
My outlines are kind of different. I have completely empty manuscript templates - title - 50 chapters- page numbers etc but it's empty. When I have an idea or am starting a first draft I pick a title and then put one or two sentences in each chapter. sometimes I skip several if I know what needs to happen half way thru- many times I'll write a scene I know will be in the book or the first and last chapters. When I work on it I "save as" every day so I can go back and see the progress or go back and take a different direction.
Hope that helps

I don't outline either but have done something similar to this.

Cyia · Jun 9, 2009

I don't really outline. I'll start writing wherever the idea starts and if I get a sense for a later scene, I'll put in a page break and write out that scene before I lose the idea. In the edit phase, I go through and make sure everything lines up the way it's supposed to.

Outlines - advice please.

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