Chapter Length??

Glitchie · Jun 6, 2009

Is there any set length for chapters? I have my story and I've cut it into chapters and chapter one is 5 pages, chapter two is 3 pages and so far, chapter three is 11 pages, so I was just curious if there was any set length for chapter like minimum and maximum...

Thanks!
Glitchie

dpaterso · Jun 6, 2009

Nope, not that I'm aware of. If that's the length each chapter needs then so be it.

-Derek

ccv707 · Jun 6, 2009

Wow...one of these.

For any question that involves "How long should ---- be?", the answer is a resounding "As long as it needs to be."

Danthia · Jun 6, 2009

My old creative writing teacher said it best. "The length of a girl's skirt. Long enough to cover everything, but short enough to be interesting."

More helpful answer...

Chapter length helps control pacing. Shorter tends to equal faster, longer equals slower. But you can also have a long chapter broken into shorter scenes and achieve the same thing. I like to keep my chapters within a general range so the book (and the pacing) feels consistent, but that range varies. For example, I aim for 2500 words, and anything that falls between 2000 and 3000 works. It's rare when I go under 2000, but occasionally I'll go as high as 3500. Do whatever works for you.

Bufty · Jun 6, 2009

I beg to differ. :Hug2:

Short chapters may give an illusion of pace but it's the content - not the length - of a chapter, that controls pacing.

Danthia said:
My old creative writing teacher said it best. "The length of a girl's skirt. Long enough to cover everything, but short enough to be interesting."

More helpful answer...

Chapter length helps control pacing. Shorter tends to equal faster, longer equals slower. But you can also have a long chapter broken into shorter scenes and achieve the same thing. I like to keep my chapters within a general range so the book (and the pacing) feels consistent, but that range varies. For example, I aim for 2500 words, and anything that falls between 2000 and 3000 works. It's rare when I go under 2000, but occasionally I'll go as high as 3500. Do whatever works for you.

LC030308 · Jun 6, 2009

The average length of a chapter for me is... 5 pages.

Glitchie · Jun 6, 2009

The reason I'm asking is because I am not sure how long it will take to get the history of the characters out before the main story - the story of what happens after the war... right now the length of time of the history is about a year... but that is broken down by the first few days of the character's meeting, four months later, then two months after that, another two months after that, and finally the defeat of the character behind the war - then the REAL story starts... its more of just how long it will take before that to address what goes on in their first year together. So far all I've covered is their first meeting... and only the interaction between the two of them, not the whole party, which with this rescued character will number 5.

dpaterso · Jun 6, 2009

Don't be surprised if you get replies suggesting you ought to start where the REAL story begins.

But that still doesn't mean your chapters have to be a certain length, or even anywhere close to each other in size.

-Derek

Glitchie · Jun 6, 2009

Yeah, I know... LOL but I've learned to listen to my muses, and I tried doing that, but then it seemed harder going back to the history that they had before the main story started and some people weren't really connecting with the characters right away, which is why I'm setting it up first. Who knows, maybe it will work, and maybe it won't.... only time will tell.

Glitchie

Bufty · Jun 7, 2009

If a reader doesn't connect with a character it's because the character is not doing anything of interest or to cause people to feel any connection.

Opening with Chapters of backstory and set-up isn't going to solve your problem. Backstory is history - it's long gone - and the backstory of a stranger is usually dull to boot.

You may say - oh, my backstory isn't dull -but if your readers aren't connecting with your characters without the backstory then your present writing is dull or lacking in technique.

Folk are interested first in the 'here and now'.

Once readers are interested in a character - by becoming caught up in his present predicament - they may wish to know more about the character and his past if it's relevant to the story, but you are doing things ass-backwards.

If complete strangers stopped you in the street and started to tell you their life-histories would you stop and listen?

I found, and still find, the following to be helpful - Scene & Structure - How to construct fiction with scene-by-scene flow, logic and readability by Jack M Bickham.

Glitchie said:
Yeah, I know... LOL but I've learned to listen to my muses, and I tried doing that, but then it seemed harder going back to the history that they had before the main story started and some people weren't really connecting with the characters right away, which is why I'm setting it up first. Who knows, maybe it will work, and maybe it won't.... only time will tell.

Glitchie

Danthia · Jun 7, 2009

Bufty said:
I beg to differ.

Short chapters may give an illusion of pace but it's the content - not the length - of a chapter, that controls pacing.

This is true. I meant chapter length can be another factor in controlling pacing, not that it was the defining factor.

dpaterso · Jun 7, 2009

Glitchie said:
but then it seemed harder going back to the history that they had before the main story started and some people weren't really connecting with the characters right away, which is why I'm setting it up first. Who knows, maybe it will work, and maybe it won't.... only time will tell.

Yep, and it depends on how much of a "teaser" factor your opening chapters have. Regardless of when it happens, if the characters are doing interesting stuff that makes the reader want to read more about them, I'd definitely lean towards suggesting there isn't a problem.

-Derek

KTC · Jun 7, 2009

Glitchie said:
The reason I'm asking is because I am not sure how long it will take to get the history of the characters out before the main story - the story of what happens after the war... right now the length of time of the history is about a year... but that is broken down by the first few days of the character's meeting, four months later, then two months after that, another two months after that, and finally the defeat of the character behind the war - then the REAL story starts... its more of just how long it will take before that to address what goes on in their first year together. So far all I've covered is their first meeting... and only the interaction between the two of them, not the whole party, which with this rescued character will number 5.

No. Don't do this. THE REAL STORY begins at the first word. Don't info dump before starting the story.

As far as chapter lengths...as long as they need to be, as others are saying.

ccv707 · Jun 7, 2009

Glitchie said:
The reason I'm asking is because I am not sure how long it will take to get the history of the characters out before the main story - the story of what happens after the war... right now the length of time of the history is about a year... but that is broken down by the first few days of the character's meeting, four months later, then two months after that, another two months after that, and finally the defeat of the character behind the war - then the REAL story starts... its more of just how long it will take before that to address what goes on in their first year together. So far all I've covered is their first meeting... and only the interaction between the two of them, not the whole party, which with this rescued character will number 5.

If your story is about the events after the war, start your book there. The reader doesn't have to know everything about the characters the moment you introduce them. If you introduce John as a traumatized war veteran, don't expect anyone to sympathize--or, better yet, empathize--with him. Why should I care about this person if all I know about him is that he is supposed to be traumatized by war? You can't just tell those things, you have to show it.

Begin the book at the point the real story begins, and use dialogue, character interactions, their fears, insecurities, speech patterns, etc., to show who they are. You should never have to tell who a character is if you know what you're doing. Have a character fight a bout of claustrophobia on a subway car and freak out, because maybe he was a POW and locked in a small, water logged cage with other dead and/or dying soldiers for several years...something like that.

You can leave most things about the past implied, and gradually reveal these things over the course of the story. This way, by the time we have a real grasp on what happened to these people before, the characters are developed enough that they feel real, and as a result, we care about their plight.

Use the powers of implication. The mind can create images much more gruesome and horrifying than anything you might physically see. You keep that element of fear of the unknown by leaving things implied.

Don't dictate what emotions your reader should be feeling. You will only patronize and alienate them. Show who your characters are, and let them grow over the course of the story, and readers will empathize with them, if not sympathize.

Glitchie · Jun 7, 2009

ccv707 said:
If your story is about the events after the war, start your book there. The reader doesn't have to know everything about the characters the moment you introduce them. If you introduce John as a traumatized war veteran, don't expect anyone to sympathize--or, better yet, empathize--with him. Why should I care about this person if all I know about him is that he is supposed to be traumatized by war? You can't just tell those things, you have to show it.

Begin the book at the point the real story begins, and use dialogue, character interactions, their fears, insecurities, speech patterns, etc., to show who they are. You should never have to tell who a character is if you know what you're doing. Have a character fight a bout of claustrophobia on a subway car and freak out, because maybe he was a POW and locked in a small, water logged cage with other dead and/or dying soldiers for several years...something like that.

You can leave most things about the past implied, and gradually reveal these things over the course of the story. This way, by the time we have a real grasp on what happened to these people before, the characters are developed enough that they feel real, and as a result, we care about their plight.

Use the powers of implication. The mind can create images much more gruesome and horrifying than anything you might physically see. You keep that element of fear of the unknown by leaving things implied.

Don't dictate what emotions your reader should be feeling. You will only patronize and alienate them. Show who your characters are, and let them grow over the course of the story, and readers will empathize with them, if not sympathize.

I'd actually tried to do that.... but it didn't work out to well. People were lost and not connecting with either character until much later. I'm still not sure of the presented format, but I think starting the story in the past and showing more or less what happens between them in their first year is the way to go. It still doesn't reveal everything about either character, but it builds up their relationship together so that the main story will be understood. I'm not showing the past as the past - as in telling - I am working with the characters as though they are in the present time and they are interacting and using dialog. Heh,

I just think like all my story ideas tend to be, this one is complex, but I'll get there

ccv707 · Jun 8, 2009

Glitchie said:
I'd actually tried to do that.... but it didn't work out to well. People were lost and not connecting with either character until much later. I'm still not sure of the presented format, but I think starting the story in the past and showing more or less what happens between them in their first year is the way to go. It still doesn't reveal everything about either character, but it builds up their relationship together so that the main story will be understood. I'm not showing the past as the past - as in telling - I am working with the characters as though they are in the present time and they are interacting and using dialog. Heh, I just think like all my story ideas tend to be, this one is complex, but I'll get there

Well, many stories tend to be complex. No offense, but you aren't unique in that regard. Do what you will, it's your story, but the advice I've given you is rather standard; there's nothing special to what I've said. Ask anyone here, and they will tell you the same thing--never start a story with an infodump, and what you've described is just that.

I understand you tried to do what I suggested before, but perhaps the reason why it didn't work is because what you tried was not good enough. I'm not saying you can't write, simply that what you have at the moment in time is not enough to grip the reader to allow the story to unfold properly. I realize that you're working with the characters in present time, but as with REAL people, they should be shaped and affected by their past experiences. You can show this through the characters rather than having to tell us how we should feel. I'm telling you, you don't have to spell things out for the reader. They aren't as stupid as us writers tend to think.

Bufty · Jun 8, 2009

The ability to discuss things and to dream up a plot does not automatically give one the ability and technique to transfer that plot idea into narrative and dialogue in such a way that folk are gripped by what they read and want to read more.

Glitchie said:
I'd actually tried to do that.... but it didn't work out to well. People were lost and not connecting with either character until much later. I'm still not sure of the presented format, but I think starting the story in the past and showing more or less what happens between them in their first year is the way to go. It still doesn't reveal everything about either character, but it builds up their relationship together so that the main story will be understood. I'm not showing the past as the past - as in telling - I am working with the characters as though they are in the present time and they are interacting and using dialog. Heh, I just think like all my story ideas tend to be, this one is complex, but I'll get there

Ken · Jun 8, 2009

... from a reader's perspective, I don't really like short chpts that are only a few pages in length. Getting into a new chpt takes a bit of effort, usually, so I prefer them to be at least 7 or more pages, but not anything in excess of 20, which is too long. Again, this is from my own personal experience as a reader. As a writer I actually dig short chpts, odd as that is ;-)

aadams73 · Jun 8, 2009

I just checked my own WIP. Chapter 2 is four words long. It's precisely as many as it needs to be.

ccv707 · Jun 8, 2009

aadams73 said:
I just checked my own WIP. Chapter 2 is four words long. It's precisely as many as it needs to be.

Right on

I have a chapter that's no words long. It's just a blank page.

Jk.

Glitchie · Jun 8, 2009

Oi! *chuckle, face palm* I was fooled, and by my own muses! The ones who have been around longer are really bad influences on the new guys... LOL They all like pulling pranks on me too.

I was looking over the story last night and realized that they were starting at the beginning of the story and just saying it was a prehistory just to frustrate me and make me work harder. LOL So... yeah. Nothing there to deal with as far as layout or useless info...

Anyway, I'm off to edit and make sure the first 4 and a half chapters (yay, I got 48 pages so far!) is correct then I'll be posting it to my page on Fiction Press if anyone wants to read it... And if it gives you an error, just refresh - I've told them it does that, don't know if they're going to fix it or not, but yeah, I figure that might give me some good feedback if I post it there... might give me a count of how many people read it too - always good to know

ccv707 · Jun 9, 2009

Glitchie said:
Oi! *chuckle, face palm* I was fooled, and by my own muses! The ones who have been around longer are really bad influences on the new guys... LOL They all like pulling pranks on me too.

I was looking over the story last night and realized that they were starting at the beginning of the story and just saying it was a prehistory just to frustrate me and make me work harder. LOL So... yeah. Nothing there to deal with as far as layout or useless info...

.......?

Glitchie · Jun 9, 2009

ccv707 said:
.......?

Heh, yeah I'm crazy... The muses in my head talk to me and like pranking me... I also have real life muses too and with the help of the real life muses found the ones in my head were messing with me... anyway, hard to really explain without giving things for the story, but yes, I did find out that I will be doing okay with it

*Whispers* I'm just glad I haven't had a visit from the men in white coats... they wouldn't let me write if they came and took me away...then I really would be crazy, LOL

Chapter Length??

Glitchie

dpaterso

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ccv707

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Danthia

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

LC030308

Glitchie

dpaterso

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Glitchie

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Danthia

dpaterso

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KTC

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ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

Glitchie

ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Ken

aadams73

A Work in Progress

ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

Glitchie

ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

Glitchie