Illustrations in novels

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Freelancer

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As the title says, I'm intending to add my own book cover, but what is more important, my own illustrations into my novel (23 pieces) and my question is, how the agents are going to like this? Or do they appreciate it at all?

Unlike other books, here the illustrations have a great essence, which is coming from the storyline as they're connecting together on a unique way and can give a unique experience after reading the whole book (Illustrations comes after the last chapter and get a separate chapter where only these draws will be in an exact order.). I'm also a pro graphic artist, so the quality is guaranteed for both the illustrations and the cover art. (Drawing is my favorite hobby and I'm also used to make freelance jobs as an artist in many cases.). But the question still remains... what the agents and / or publishers are going to say for it? Because I'm intending to add them, but I also don't want to crush my chances.

Any experiences on this front? Any ideas?
 

Cyia

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You don't do the cover unless you self-publish. That's up to the publisher. (Though if you're going for an agent, I'll assume you're not self-publishing) Usually if illustrations are needed, they're done by a pro-artist the publisher is familiar with, and that's usually only for children's chapter books from what I've seen. I don't know how you'd go about illustrations in an adult or YA novel.
 

Ken

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... if you're going to be pitching to agents, as you say, you're going to be starting off with a query letter first so the illustrations won't even come into the picture or be a concern. Mention of course that you have illustrations to include and send and that you have experience as an illustrator, and see what they have to say. G'luck.
 

KTC

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The simple answer is NO. Keep the illustrations out of the picture.
 

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Cyia. The book's target audience is from 9-99.

Ken. Yes, I'm intending to pitch it to agents or publishers, because as a freelancer I can't achive alone to make this book as a bestseller, which is the primary goal in our case (As the story has an already written mini series too, the book would give the background for it before we would do anything with the series itself.). As an illustrator I worked for few movie and computer game studios as freelance CGI animation artist, concept artist and cover artist. So, yes, maybe I can say I have some experience... well, there are surely better artists that I'm, but I can do what I must on a pro level too. But as the story and the world is unique, it is requiring the knowledge of the world and the elements to make the illustrations for those things that are in it. There are no cliche in the storyline and the illustrations, even the cover is requiring the same approach as many elements are unique in it. Also your idea may work out. Thanks for the heads up.

KTC. Do you have any experience on this front? At least I'm making this conclusion from your response. Your NO was damned determined. :)
 
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KTC

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Cyia. It's a book's intended target is from 9-99.

Ken. Yes, I'm intending to pitch it to agents or publishers, because as a freelancer I can't achive alone to make this book as a bestseller, which is the primary goal in this case (As the story has an already written mini series too and the book would give the background for it.). As an illustrator I worked for few movie and computer game studios as freelance CGI animation artist, concept artist and cover artist. So, yes, maybe I can say I have some experience... well, there are surely better artists that I'm, but I can do what I must on a pro level too.

KTC. Do you have any experience on this front? At least I'm making this conclusion from your response.

I don't. But I know enough about querying agents and the process to know that they are not interested. It's just not done. It could be something you discuss once you have an agent...maybe. I'm not sure about that.
 

Epiphany

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I think that once you have an agent, you can pitch the idea to them. I wouldn't say that it is impossible for you to incorporate your drawing into your piece, but it is obviously something that has to be talked over and agreed upon by the publisher. I would guess that your best bet is to simply wait until a publisher is in the talks, and then converse with your agent about it.
 

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Okay. Thanks for the heads up.

Well. Somehow I'm intending to find a solution for this, because those illustrations would just make the whole product better and unique, would make the story to complete with some plus.

If anyone have some experience on this front, please tell me.

Epiphany. Actually I already had an agent until the end of 2005, then I turned to freelancer. Now as the goal is became a bit greater then just simple publishing, we'd like to achieve more, making something huge and different, I'm looking for a new agent to get back into the game. But I don't know have a clue what is changed on this front in the last four years. I don't know what the rules are in 2009 and what is the projected one for 2010.
 
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Ken

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... I stand corrected :-(
Seems like illustrations shouldn't be mentioned, at least initially:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96445&highlight=illustration
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15288&highlight=illustration

Adult books from commercial publishers don't generally have illustrations. Where they do, they're either an author-illustrator collaboration, or the illustrator is provided by the publisher.

Maps can be an exception. The publisher may not want to spring for a map, in which case they're usually happy for you to provide a map yourself, as long as it's of professional quality. But the time to discuss these issues is after you've been offered a contract, not before. Either way, illustrations and maps should not accompany submissions.

- Victoria <--- Knows her stuff!
 

Cyia

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9 to 99 is also a problem. An agent - and publisher - is going to want a definite range. Mid-grade - up to say 12/13, YA - 14 to maybe 18 or adult - everyone else.

You may think that by saying 9 to 99 you're increasing the appeal of the book, but you're not. Crossovers are a hard(er) sell. Find a definite niche in the age, find a definite genre and if it can crossover to others, the publisher will figure that out on their own. Ultimately it's their decision anyway.
 

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Cyia. Yeah, I know it sounds strange. But this one is for 9 to 99 and not I was the one who figured out this range for the book. This is what I got back from the beta readers as they feel, this book is for everyone. I written it to this range without my very own knowledge. As one of my beta readers said after read just half of the book; this is a book, what a child, a teenager, or even a grandpa may read to their granddaugthers anytime. Well, I just intended to write it to a balanced book, where everyone, regardless from origin, regardless from religion may find something in it, something good. But maybe that's the primary reason it's already around 300,000 words and it's still not ready. Plus the illustrations...

Ken. Thanks. I'll keep in my mind. This quote what you added is good for a start. I believe I will be able to figure out something. Thanks again.
 
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Nope. Actually it's the first episode of the trilogy. But it has this length with a reason. It's a detailed and fresh, brand new world, with new creatures, new cultures, many twists, cause and effects, etc, etc... It's not a rip off of any fantasy. The second episode is already a mini series (We written that one first as a 9 episode long series, 90 minutes each. This book is the prelude of that story, but it's also a standalone story.). The mini series what we're holding back until this book is not going to be published also will be converted to the second book and there will be a third one. But each book is presenting different stories from different angles. Each of them has a beginning and an ending. But you get the whole picture with all three. At least, that's the plan.
 
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Cyia

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I understand that you have your reasons, but no agent is going to touch a 300,000 word book - especially one that can't stand on it's own. No publisher is going to put the kind of money it would require to publish it on the line for a new author. Fantasy allows for longer novels because of the world building involved, but they're still well under 200,000 words.

Word count is key, but word count determines page count and there's a limit to how many pages can be bound together without over-stressing the spine.
 

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Freelancer, I have to say it: trying to sell a 300,000 word novel from an unpublished author, complete with illustrations, has a close-to-zero chance of success. I can't imagine an agent taking on such a hefty project, especially in today's uncertain and increasing-tight market.

300,000 is three times the size of an average, debut novel. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are rare compared to the number of authors who debut every month. Very rare.

It's awesome that you believe in your project--we all believe in our projects. But the reality is that your chances of selling this as your debut novel(s) are extremely tiny.
 

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You have some good point and this one is also bothering me, but at the moment this one will remain around 300,000 for now, then we'll see how is it going to work out. But as I written, this one can stand on it's own. Just it has it's own sequel already as we written the sequel first. But both of them are standalone story in the same universe.

ChaosTitan. I always took risk in the business as I always listened to my instincts. But I know the world and it's potential and I'm rarely mistaken before. So, I'll try it this time with this length. Then we'll see. The story is whole on this way. Maybe I'm going to mistake this time. Maybe not. Who knows? But that's sure if I'm not going to even try it, I never going to learn what would be the result. Also I'm unpublished as an author, but I'm not unpublished completely as a writer (1 award winner short movie / 2 published video games / 1 optioned series and few other published things.). Maybe these things can help me a bit. Maybe not. Who knows...
 
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OpheliaRevived

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If you feel that strongly about the illustrations, wait until you've published, become a wild success and then use them in the second edition....(?)
 

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I would gladly see them in the first edition as they're part of the storyline. That's one of the unique features of the book.

Also I'm going to meditate on all the advice that you gave me here. Maybe I can find a third path. Thanks for the help again.
 
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Libbie

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These are my honest thoughts on your chances of success at getting an agent, based on what you're telling us here.

#1: The age range is not 9-99. Your beta readers may say that, but they're not in the business of selling books. To those who are in the business of selling books, your novel must fit into a genre or it will be insanely difficult to classify and therefore to sell. By saying that the age range is 9-99, you are only telling us--and, of course, any agent to whom you pitch--that you don't know or don't understand how to classify your novel. This, in turn, means you have no idea how to market your novel. And as a new author, you will need to do plenty of marketing work by yourself. Before you even think about the illustration thing, you need to first identify your novel's genre. Either it is a midgrade novel (falling in the 9 years age range) or it is not. It will not sell to a wide range of ages. There is always the odd kid who buys a lot of adult fiction and there are always adults who buy a lot of midgrade, but they are the exceptions to the rules. In general, the usual audiences for various genres are well defined and do not overlap much with others. It is your job to understand what your book is. If you don't know how to sell it, an agent won't know.

It sounds like your book is a fantasy, and with such an enormous word count it's probably not a midgrade or YA fantasy. You need to market it as a fantasy, which implies that it's intended for a mostly adult audience.

#2: 300,000 words. You do not know how to edit. It will be a remarkably hard sell to get an agent interested in a 300K manuscript.

#3: It is considered deeply amateurish to present your own illustrations for books unless you're working with picture or board books. And it is very presumptuous to assume that you'll be doing the cover art. It's not that you can't. There are authors who have. But to approach an agent saying, "I'm going to illustrate this novel myself" marks you as a rank noob and, therefore, probably not somebody who will be easy to work with. The right approach is to wait until you've got an agent, and then mention in passing that gee, it sure would be fun to do the cover yourself, and you've got prior illustration experience. Be prepared to be turned down, because if you get a contract from a large publishing house, they have art departments with people who are paid to produce reliable, marketable cover art. They are not likely to take a risk on using an artist with whom they're not familiar.

Sorry to be harsh, but these are the facts of the publishing world.

If your heart is set on publishing a 300K-word novel with your own cover art, then self-publishing is the way to go.

Either way you choose to go, you will be responsible for a huge amount of publicizing and marketing yourself. That's just the way it is with 99% of the new novelists who are published every year.
 
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Willowmound

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Freelancer, I assume you intend to publish this in Hungary. While the advice given in this thread seem mostly sound to me, remember it's based on Anglo-American experience.

I don't know how publishing works in Hungary, but I do know that publishing in different countries can follow very different rules. If I were you, I'd try to get some specifically Hungarian advice.
 

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Illustrations aren't something a writer can dictate to an agent/editor/publisher unless he/she is already established as a known commodity. There are always exceptions (e.g., if they see the book as a once in a lifetime thing), but don't count on it. A publisher chooses those kinds of things for you. It's hard enough to get your actual text published, let alone cover art and illustrations.

I've thought about using crude illustrations in a couple of my books, but getting published takes precedence over such distractions.
 

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Libbie. No problem. I appreciate when someone is telling her own opinion. I'm glad for it.

1. I know what my book is all about and as I look at it now, yes, I must agree with the people who read. It's a fantasy for 9-99. Also if an agent don't know how to sell a story, especially after he read it, that agent is wrong.
2. Well, maybe I don't know how to edit, as I'm not an editor. But my co-writer knows how to edit as she is an official editor. But it's a long, twisted and detailed story. Sometimes even she can't cut from it. Strange, but long stories are still existing. Okay. I admit. This one is became extreme long. But when the story is layered and using so many subplots, cut can be so hard. But the second edit is still ahead of us. Maybe we can do a miracle... maybe not.
3. Could be amateurish, or I just figured out something what no one before regarding the illustrations. And unfortunately this second is the valid in this case as this method is really not existed until this time. That's why I'd like to add the illustrations into it. I know trying out something new is not the favorite things in the U.S. No offense; that's why so many cliches are born. Well. I like new things. I'm not intending to create a cliche. Maybe I'm going to fail with it, a great one. But at least I tried. :D

Willowmound. No. Actually I directly written this for the worldwide market, not just for Hungary, or U.S (I'm usually working into the U.S. and Canada.). Nowadays if you're making something just for the U.S. market, you can't sell that in Europe, Asia or other places. At least this is what I experienced until this time. I've tried to make this one to have a chance on all continents. Also I'm intending to find a publisher in Canada, U.S. or in the U.K.

ccv707.
e.g., if they see the book as a once in a lifetime thing
Actually that was the primary goal to create a book and a story like this. I believe this one is on the right track. Also the illustations are not crude at all. They're completely giving back the atmosphere of the story and also they're well detailed as they must be. If they wouldn't be good for illustrations, I also wouldn't add want to them. Yes, I like to balance at the edge, taking risks, but I'm not willing to jump into the deep as I'm not that suicidal. :)

Illustrations aren't something a writer can dictate to an agent/editor/publisher unless he/she is already established as a known commodity.
Okay. That's what in I wanted to believe in. Thank you. So, if I can establish a larger commodity somehow (I also intending to do this), presumably I can add the illustrations. Excellent. Then the standard plan probably can stay.

Well. I try to stay on the ground, in the world of reality. As all of you kindly suggested many things and said many good advices; I'd like to say thanks for that. I'll also try to keep the storyline intact as it should be. We'll try to cut it as we can and as it possible, maybe we can go down to 250000, then we'll see how is it going to work out. Also I don't want to sacrifice elements that would hurt the storyline. For me the story's integrity and to deliver something new is much more important, then the word count.
 
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Willowmound

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Willowmound. No. Actually I directly written this for the worldwide market, not just for Hungary, or U.S (I'm usually working into the U.S. and Canada.). Nowadays if you're making something just for the U.S. market, you can't sell that in Europe, Asia or other places. I've tried to make this one to have a chance on all continents. Also I'm intending to find a publisher in Canada, U.S. or in the U.K.

You wrote it in English?
 

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I'm always writing in English and usually an editor, that with I worked in the last eight years and used to be my co-writer too is correcting my grammar mistakes (She is Canadian.). I know my grammar is never going to be perfect, but who knows me, knows I'm a storyteller, who loves to create unique worlds and tell unique stories or create new designs as I used to incorporate graphic into the creation of the worlds. But I'm not an English grammar master. English grammar is used to be my Achilles heel. But I used to compensate that with better storytelling and with some plus (That's where the graphic used to come in.). I have an editor / co-writer, who knows my writing style very well. In the last years I wrote few things in English that were released or published and yes, this one is also in English.
 
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Cyia

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1. I know what my book is all about and as I look at it now, yes, I must agree with the people who read. It's a fantasy for 9-99. Also if an agent don't know how to sell a story, especially after he read it, that agent is wrong.


I know it probably sounds like we're all trying to discourage you, but we're really not. You have a book you believe in, and that's a great place to start, but thinking like this is going to kill your book.

When you get a book ready for publication, you have to find an agent. In order to find an agent in the US or Canada, you send a short (less than 1 page) query letter that gives a quick idea of your book, complete with its genre and word count. In the UK, you usually send a cover letter and three chapters.

Any agent who sees "A fantasy for 9 to 99" and then 300,000 IS NOT GOING TO READ THE BOOK. Period. They're not going to check and see if it's as wonderful and far reaching as you claim. They're not going to put in the time and effort to go through over a thousand pages. They're going to send you back a very polite, very fast, and very solid "No thank you".

Agents generally don't accept full manuscripts in the mail unless they have asked to see them after reading a query. They won't open emails with manuscripts they haven't requested.

There are simply guidelines you have to follow if you want to work with agents who have contacts in the US/Canadian/UK markets, and they know their stuff. Taking the position of "well, that agent is wrong", is an amateur's complaint.

Is the person reading your book a friend or relative? If yes, then you'd do yourself a favor by finding someone who doesn't know you to read a bit of it and give you an honest opinion without regard to your feelings. Friends and family mean well, but they seldom give opinions equal with those in the marketplace.

(btw - plenty of American books make it into other markets, so whoever told you that books written for the US market can't sell in Europe, Asia, or elsewhere doesn't know what they're talking about.)
 
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